c333ea No.843163
>mfw Calvinists think accepting salvation is a work
>my Dad buys me a car
>I say thanks and look after the car
>apparently I did something here I can "boast in"
>The alternative is I say "PSYCH! you thought I was going to accept this car with gratitude. Nope. I'm going to exercise my free will instead, Dad!" and then I blow the car up, grieving him tremendously
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f61545 No.843165
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9d3c72 No.843170
Do protestants see a difference between accepting one's cross and accepting one's salvation?
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c333ea No.843190
>>843165
Calvinists think if you do literally anything to respond to Christ, you're relying on works, so they retconed the idea free will in a knee-jerk response and made "Islam for Christians" in the process.
>>843170
You speak of protestants like they, by nature, have unified views on things.
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83989a No.843201
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fba925 No.843248
OP what do you think the word "work" means in the context of salvation, and why is justification not by works? Is there a reason why faith is not a work? Is there a condition that men must fulfill in order to benefit from the sacrifice of Christ, or is it given to the elect automatically?
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fba925 No.843249
>>843190
>they retconed the idea free will in a knee-jerk response and made "Islam for Christians" in the process
You haven't read much church history, have you
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c333ea No.843318
>>843248
The simple answer is that I can literally do nothing to justify myself, only Christ's sacrifice can justify me. Nevertheless I must treat the matter with the utmost reverence, otherwise I'm an ingrate and a blasphemer.
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c333ea No.843319
>>843249
Scritpure beats church history
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ba0602 No.843320
>>843248
>why is justification not by works?
Lest any man should boast
>Is there a reason why faith is not a work?
It's is defined as not a work in Ephesians 2
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120fb8 No.843321
>>843319
scripture is rather absolutely in line with church history
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fba925 No.843504
>>843318
>The simple answer
To what? I asked several questions and this doesn't seem to answer any of them.
>>843319
Am I to understand that scripture says Calvinists "retconed the idea free will in a knee-jerk response and made "Islam for Christians" in the process"?
>>843320
>Lest any man should boast
I repeat: what is a work?
>It's is defined as not a work in Ephesians 2
Disregarding the fact that you did not define "works" and so can hardly tell me if faith is one, you still misunderstood this question. I did not ask you to justify to me the idea that faith is not a work, I asked you to tell me why faith is not considered a work. What is the difference? Saying "Ephesians says so" does not satisfy that.
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ba0602 No.843508
>>843504
Saying "Ephesians says so" is not an answer but it gets to the point. The point is to understand what the Bible teaches, and whatever the precise definition of ergon/work is it does not include faith.
This is a link to a word study of work https://www.biblehub.com/greek/2041.htm
Do you intend to argue that salvation is by works and Ephesians 2 is wrong?
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fba925 No.843520
>>843508
>Saying "Ephesians says so" is not an answer but it gets to the point
No sir it does not and the fact you can't tell that it does not says you do not understand the point (probably by choice). Once again: I did not ask you to justify to me the idea that faith is not a work, I asked you to tell me why faith is not considered a work. What is the difference?
>The point is to understand what the Bible teaches
No, again, the question is about theology, not scripture. You can and should use scripture, but if you cannot tell me the theological definition of "work", your theology is worthless and should be rejected out of hand.
>whatever the precise definition of ergon/work is it does not include faith
Am I to understand that "work" is some undefined mystical concept which we cannot understand except that faith is not it? Did Paul have a meaning in mind when he used the term? On what basis can you say "faith is not a work" if you don't know what works are?
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f59694 No.843597
OP, no calvinist worth their salt would use the term 'accept salvation' except in very specific circumstance of explaining why one can't of themselves 'accept' anything from God, due to the fallen nature precluding fallen man from making such a good decision
see, in the calvinist worldview one is born to such greatness, made for such greatness, and most importantly; has such greatness thrust upon him – there is nothing in natural man that compels him to turn to God and receive any such gift, and instead fallen man acts exactly as your car-bomber does; working out of the desire of his heart for sin, willingly and freely* choosing to rage against one's Maker, as evidenced by our crucifying of Christ
thus the calvinists hold that it is necessary for God to arrest such a rebel in his tracks, and forcibly command him to Life, essentially 'making' him repent and put faith in Christ, rather than allow him to keep on choosing and accepting what his black heart desires
tl;dr i don't think you understand reformed doctrine enough to accurately represent it
~
*at a given value of 'freely' since the scripture speaks of God restraining the evil of men, not often allowing it full expression in this life; though there's a likelihood that all such protection is removed in hell
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c333ea No.843598
>>843597
You Calvinists think you're so smart and then you go and make such obvious errors in thinking. Of course they don't use the words "accept salvation" because to them it is anathema that man should have any involvement in his own salvation. I am using those words because to me, they are a reality. The point of the analogy is that there is no glory in accepting something with thanks, all the glory goes to the giver of the gift.
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f59694 No.843600
>>843598
> I am using those words because to me, they are a reality.
why do you believe that ?
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c333ea No.843601
>>843600
Free will is written on my heart. The only people I know who have denied free will are atheists, Muslims and Calvinists. I don't see any scripture that necessarily contradicts the idea of libertarian free will. Like let's take the parable of the potter. Okay so does this mean we literally don't have a free will? No, because what the parable means is that God will not accept you in your natural state (which yes, is sin) and you must go through a process of sanctification to be a vessel for honor. Now, have you never seen someone being witnessed to and they say "Well God made me a homosexual and made me like fornication and drugs and this and that, so he should accept me." That's the clay answering the potter. The potter doesn't literally get people to do these sins. Also Calvinism is just obviously cynical and absurd.
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f59694 No.843602
>>843601
i was asking why you believe it's accurate to use the phrase 'accept salvation' yet you've bounced over to the topic of 'free will' so i'm guessing that in your framework, the ability to accept God's gift is down to your free-will choice
wouldn't that mean your salvation is dependent on yourself ?
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c333ea No.843605
>>843602
Not ultimately. Ultimately, the availability of God's grace which he gave of the abundance of his love and goodness is what my salvation is dependent on. But it is in a much less significant way, dependent upon me accepting it. And not only accepting it but treating it respectfully. Going back to the car analogy, if I take the car and do donuts with it and my Dad finds out and he's holding the lease, then I am dependent on his good graces to let me keep the car. And this is how it is with the Christian life, we are entirely dependent on the grace of God to not take away our salvation for not giving ourselves 100% to serving him or even falling into sin.
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f59694 No.843607
>>843605
>we are entirely dependent on the grace of God to not take away our salvation
can you tell me why you think God would ever take away salvation when Christ says that to all who come to him, he will in no way cast out ?
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c333ea No.843608
>>843607
Because he is rich in mercy. Just because he won't doesn't mean he couldn't. And yes, they do have to come to him as well. Sounds like agency to me.
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f59694 No.843609
>>843608
>Just because he won't doesn't mean he couldn't.
so you're saying that the Almighty Creator of heaven and earth, The Thrice Holy God who dwells in light and in Whom is no shadow of turning, could break His promise and act contrary to His character ?
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c333ea No.843610
>>843609
God has given a promise only to people who live by faith. Are you presuming to dictate to God what his promises are? Are you furthermore presuming to dictate what his character is? Do you deny that if God took away your life and sent you to hell right now, he would be just in doing so? Do you not live on his mercy?
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83b1a1 No.843613
>>843520
An apple is not a vegetable. You don't have to find a precise definition of vegetable to know an apple is not one.
Faith is not a work because it does not fit the definition of one. I shared a resource to review the definition. This is tedious and pedantic.
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fba925 No.843614
>>843598
>You Calvinists think you're so smart
A weird playground-esque expression of spite is a strong way to start any reply
>it is anathema that man should have any involvement in his own salvation
Yes, yes that is exactly the point. You know who else that idea is anathema to? Paul. Go re-read Romans and Galatians
>The point of the analogy is that there is no glory in accepting something with thanks, all the glory goes to the giver of the gift.
The problem is your position is not the mere acceptance of a gift it is the satisfaction of a condition. Let's use your OP analogy: when your dad buys you a car, does he require you to 'believe in him' to receive it? Is it a condition that unless it is satisfied he will not give you the car? What gift do those who do not make the free will choice to believe in God receive?
>>843601
>I don't see any scripture that necessarily contradicts the idea of libertarian free will
What about Psalm 33:10-11?
>No, because what the parable means is that God will not accept you in your natural state (which yes, is sin) and you must go through a process of sanctification to be a vessel for honor.
Do you not see what a serious problem this is? This is Rome, this is counter-reformation, this is the repudiation of sola fide. Can you see why? The idea that one must undergo a process of sanctification before God will accept them is the very medieval concept that Luther's breakthrough rejected. The doctrine which the reformers rediscovered is that the sinner is not made holy prior to justification, they are no less wretched in that moment than they were beforehand; the only basis upon which a sinner may stand before the holy God is a iustitia alienam, or "foreign righteousness", which is the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them at the moment of faith.
>>843605
>Not ultimately. Ultimately, the availability of God's grace which he gave of the abundance of his love and goodness is what my salvation is dependent on. But it is in a much less significant way, dependent upon me accepting it.
Now I want you to understand that your view of grace as expressed here is not distinct from Rome's own. Were it not for the context this could just as easily have been said by a Roman Catholic. They will tell you that salvation is of grace at every point, because their sacramental system is provided for by God and it did not have to be, and all that is required of you is to follow it. If you can just choose of your own free will to cooperate with grace and believe in Him, then you can just as easily choose to cooperate with grace and keep the law. There is no reason for there not to be works salvation under this view of grace, indeed it would make faith itself a work since it would be something man does rather than something God grants.
>And not only accepting it but treating it respectfully. Going back to the car analogy, if I take the car and do donuts with it and my Dad finds out and he's holding the lease, then I am dependent on his good graces to let me keep the car. And this is how it is with the Christian life, we are entirely dependent on the grace of God to not take away our salvation for not giving ourselves 100% to serving him or even falling into sin.
This might be the most concerning thing you said. This doesn't sound like an established and enduring peace with God, it sounds much more like losing justification after each sin and having to be rejustified after each sin, living in constant fear of God since the sacrifice did not make perfect those who drew near. We don't have to make any effort to keep the grace of justification, all that effort was already performed by Christ; this is precisely why we may know peace rather than be in a constant state of anxiety. We don't have to worry about God taking away our salvation for our sins, we are dead to the law, we already were nailed to the cross.
>>843610
>Are you presuming to dictate to God what his promises are?
He gave them to us, we had better know what they are
>Are you furthermore presuming to dictate what his character is?
He has revealed it, sir.
>Do you deny that if God took away your life and sent you to hell right now, he would be just in doing so?
Yes, I do deny it. It would be well deserved but anything but just, because He has promised the contrary.
>>843613
>This is tedious and pedantic.
I would say it is pathetic that you are pretending to have a theological discussion and you can't even provide a simple definition to such a basic idea.
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83b1a1 No.843616
>>843614
Did you click the link?
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c333ea No.843617
>>843614
I don't really care what Luther was railing against. The problems with the Catholic church are numerous beyond that one piece of doctrine. And Calvinists just say if you fall into sin, you had a false profession, and that's why they tend to be cessationists because they want to deny your experiences and claim you had a false profession because you fell back into sin and you weren't regenerate. How is that not more problematic?
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c333ea No.843618
>>843614
also
>he doesn't live in fear of God
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83b1a1 No.843620
>>843617
Catholics are not cessationists. The cult of the saints is entirely centered around alleged miraculous events.
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c333ea No.843623
>>843620
I said Calvinists are cessationists. Many of them are.
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83b1a1 No.843624
>>843623
My mistake and you're right
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fba925 No.843634
>>843617
>I don't really care what Luther was railing against
See, there's your problem.
>And Calvinists just say if you fall into sin, you had a false profession
No.
>that's why they tend to be cessationists
Lol
>>843618
Righteous God-fearing is not the same as living in fear. Not even similar.
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c333ea No.843655
>>843634
>see, there's your problem
Why? I can see what is wrong with the Catholic church is intercession (both material and supernatural), Mary and Saint worship, tithing, badly interpreted sacraments, Jesuit occultism, works based salvation, selling of indulgences, and unbiblical eschatology. Ordo Salutis doesn't matter to me and anyone who says the Christian life isn't one of growing in sanctity is a liar.
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