4c45b5 No.843029[Last 50 Posts]
I can't reconcile the false ecumenism of Vatican II and the post conciliar papal claimants and how they fraternized with non-catholics and pagans esp the interreligious peace meeting in Assisi on October 27 1986. How does this not contradict Mortalium Animos? How can a Pope espouse this heresy of religious indifferentism and still retain his office? Does a Pope really lose his office by means of heresy? Saint Robert Bellarmine: “The Pope Manifestly a Heretic Ceases by Himself to Be Pope”
How does the new mass (along with lay Eucharistic ministers especially women and Communion in the hand) not contradict Quo Primum? Can a Pope bind his future successors as in did Pope Pius V bind Pope Paul VI with this Papal bull? Pius V doesn't specifically name a future Pope but does say it lasts forever and he does command "each and every Patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence" to not use any other rite or missal or at least ones that is not grounded in a tradition that has lasted for a minimum of 200 years. Doesn't specify Pope but it does say any other rank or pre-eminence so would that include a successor Pope as well?
I haven't made a decision yet and I'm scared to go full sede but I'm also scared to embrace things that are questionable and I know are wrong.
I would just like to read some arguments against these claims. Links from traditional minded sources would be appreciated. I'm sorry for this post I'm just confused in need of guidance. The Rosary is the only thing helping me right now.
____________________________
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4c45b5 No.843030
I forgot to mention that if anyone's idea of advice is to abandon Catholicism and just become and Orthodox or Protestant that's not an option because the Orthodox Bishops and several Protestants took part in the Assisi interreligious meeting that so they too are on board with the religious indifferentism and many Protestants were consulted and helped contributed to Vatican II and the new mass so they are part of the problem. On top of the fact that they're false religions imo.
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bd111e No.843036
>>843030
>several Protestants took part in the Assisi interreligious meeting that so they too are on board with the religious indifferentism and many Protestants were consulted and helped contributed to Vatican II and the new mass so they are part of the problem
This has nothing to do with Protestantism being true or not
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e7caf6 No.843079
>How can a Pope espouse this heresy of religious indifferentism?
When has he? Everything Pope Francis has said so far has been free of heresy, albeit sometimes worded poorly enough to be taken out of context.
>How does the new mass contradict Quo Primum
Because most of the traditions (little t) revolving around the mass and liturgy are not truths from God but ways of doing things that can be changed whenever the Church so desires it, such as fasting regulations. Communion in the hand was the norm until around the 10th century before taking it in the mouth took over as a greater sign of veneration (https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2020/03/holy-communion-in-the-hand-norm-till-500-900-ad.html).
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2aa554 No.843091
>>843030
The problem is Orthodoxy doesn't think bishops are the church.
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965229 No.843093
>>843091
The real problem with Orthodoxy and Protestantism is they deny or lie about the parts of the Bible they don't like, such as John 21:15-17 and Matthew 16:18. And they do it because they want the power to make their own churches rather than be obedient to Our Lord.
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a41200 No.843095
>>843093
The problem with your apologetics is that it's based on strawmen
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2aa554 No.843097
>>843093
No, we just disagree with you because we have a different view and method of intepretation. No one reads Peter's drowning a sign of Rome falling away from the faith, which according to your method of interpretation would be valid.
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965229 No.843109
>>843095
If you believe the Bible, you can't be a protestant or Orthodox.
Being Catholic means you take the entire teaching of the church established by God.
Cafeteria Catholics, Most Orthodox, and all Protestants don't do that. They reject the teachings of the church for love sin (in the case of protestants and Cafeteria Catholics) or love of power.
Both are disobedient to God… unless they absolutely do not know the Holy Catholic Church is God's one True Church. Feneyism is a sin, after all.
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e999b6 No.843118
>>843109
Feeneyism was only ever "condemned" by an American newspaper. It's actually just the teaching of the Church that outside the church there is no salvation.
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6b5d0c No.843129
>>843097
>Eastern Catholic Churches don't believe in Catholic teaching. That's why they left the Orthodox churches and joined the Catholic Church and as part of the Church, necessarily have to teach Catholic dogma and stay in line with it.
That picture is the definition of cope.
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dc6a37 No.843130
>>843097
Pursuit of power within reason is based and even the Orthodox know this. Every Christian religion that didn't die out knows this. *Insert Matthew quote about bearing good fruits for the hundredth time or even the parable of the talents would work in this case*
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3796a2 No.843134
>>843129
Greek-catholics are Mechanicus tier, when it comes to theology.
Some are more Roman than Rome in aligning themselves to the Vatican's ideas, some flaunt their independence from Rome's dictates openly.
And everyone pretty much turns a blind eye to it, since the association is too useful for both sides.
>>843093
>John 21:15-17 and Matthew 16:18
Problem is that, prot obsession with turning everything into a declaration of faith notwitstanding, both of those have been interpreted in both ways in Patristics.
>inb4 you throw a wall of cherrypicked quotes you found on the internet, completely missing my point.
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2aa554 No.843138
>>843130
Fruits of the world are impiousness, destruction and disdain. The only fruit of allowing what one considers heterodoxy for power is dillution and clown masses. The latter are the logical conclusion of what you preach.
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965229 No.843141
>>843029
You bring up legit issues, Anon.
How people deal with it is pretty much covered by the three religious orders that sprang from Archbishop Lefebvre:
First was the SSPX, who defied the Vatican's effort to destroy the Mass
Then the FSSP, who said Obey but resist.
Then the SSPV, which said the seat is empty
I can't find fault with any of these, tho' the tend to find fault with each other. They are the three different approaches to the Great Apostasy.
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e3757e No.843326
Here, I'll talk you out of Catholicism altogether. If the Papal infallibility was reasonable then there would be no Sedevacantism. Sedevacantism shows that even reasonable Catholics know Catholicism is wrong.
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e3757e No.843327
>>843109
>the ol' Jesus gave the keys to Peter meme
a veritable classic to be sure
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a41200 No.843335
>>843326
This is a pretty good argument if sedes were generally reasonable compared to regular catholics
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965229 No.843341
>>843326
Non sequitur.
The Sede argument is that by Cannon, a heretic, former or current, cannot be Pope.
Bishop Bergoglio denied the divinity of Christ before he was voted Pope. Ergo, he is a false Pope as he was not eligible to be made Pope.
It is a sound argument and well within Catholic Teaching. I'm not sure who's right, but it is false to say this is a bad argument or to straw man it like you did
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965229 No.843342
>>843327
>I disregard the Bible when I don't like what it says, and the Catholic Church won't let me sin and I don't like that.
yeah, whatever.
Am I supposed to be upset that you dismiss Scripture so lightly?
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4c45b5 No.843355
Hi, it's op here.
I've made my decision, admittedly not due to help from this board… seriously you anons were pretty useless tbh but no offense.
I've discerned that sedevacantism is a false position and that I'm sticking with the Catholic Church.
Sedes seem to have a misunderstanding of sacramental theology and take quotes out of context.
http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/sedevacantist-watch.html
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a41200 No.843356
>>843355
Why do you not think salvation is by faith alone?
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4c45b5 No.843357
>>843356
There is no record of it being a thing until after the reformation. If so then surely we would have writings of it from the 1st century.
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a41200 No.843359
>>843357
Ephesians is a first century document
These are extrabiblical writings https://carm.org/early-church-fathers-faith-alone
Hard-line Catholics don't even argue it was first articulated at the time of the reformation, that's just ahistorical
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4c45b5 No.843360
>>843359
James contradicts the protestant interpretation of Ephesians. The Bible is the word of God it is infallible but man's interpretation is extremely fallible. The bible doesn't contradict itself therefore the interpretation is what's false
That link is playing sola scriptura with the Fathers and none of them are still teaching sola fide the same way the reformers did.
Some of those quotes do not say anything about salvation coming from faith alone it's says things like God rejoices in our faith alone and by faith alone we glorify God.
Justification as Catholics understand it is not the same as protestants understand. Faith alone is the beginning of justification but baptism is where justification happens so yes it's true to say justification does not happen by works it's given freely at baptism but justification can be lost through mortal sin. But you must persevere in it that state of justification.
Also it's cherry picking Fathers that on the surface seem to agree with them.
"Let your baptism be ever your shield, your faith a helmet, your charity a spear, your patience a panoply. Let your works be deposits, so that you may receive the sum that is due you” (Letter to St. Polycarp) "Therefore, let us not be ungrateful for His kindness. For if He were to reward us according to our works, we would cease to be" - Ignatius of Antioch (AD 35-107)
https://chnetwork.org/2010/03/16/salvation-from-the-perspective-of-the-early-church-fathers/
Also the dogma was not yet clearly defined by Trent (which was a refutation of the reformation) it's like saying the immaculate conception isn't true by appealing to St. Thomas Aquinas
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a41200 No.843362
>>843360
What do you think sola fide means and why do you think it is contradicted in James?
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965229 No.843363
>>843355
>I've discerned that sedevacantism is a false position and that I'm sticking with the Catholic Church.
I didn't realize that the sedevacantism and the Catholic Church were mutually exclusive.
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4c45b5 No.843367
>>843363
They literally are mutually exclusive.
One has a sitting Pope and the other doesn't while claiming the See is vacant.
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4c45b5 No.843369
>>843362
Sola means only
and Fide means faith
Because it supports the true position that salvation comes from having faith and manifesting that faith through works and without it faith is dead. I'm not the only one who realizes it to the founder of Protestantism wanted to remove James from the Bible.
If you're gonna claim that doesn't contradict Sola Fide then you should become Catholic and get it over with cause that's the path you're on.
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e3757e No.843372
>>843342
Why do you assume I'm unrepentant? Just because I didn't accept one narrow and autistic interpretation of a text everyone assumed to mean that Peter would be head of the early church, and really supports Orthodoxy more than Catholicism anyway? For shame
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a41200 No.843373
>>843369
>sola fide = antinomianism
Literally every time
Honestly where do you guys pick this up because it's embarrassing. No serious Roman catholic scholar in the last 500 years arguing against Protestantism made this brainlet error
Sola fide means salvation is not of works, but faith alone. James 2 says that faith without works is dead. These sentences are in agreement.
James 2 does not teach that works contribute to salvation, only that they are necessarily present with salvation. It doesn't alternatively teach that works don't contribute to salvation, so this is really a red herring for either of us.
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a41200 No.843374
>>843372
This guy goes into every thread and asserts that anyone who disagrees with him is doing so for love of sin
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e3757e No.843376
>>843374
Yeah, its the same thing every denomination does. Calvinists are like, well either you're reformed or you're a Prosperity Gospel follower. Its really annoying. I go to a reformed church and I hate Calvinism. Why? Because that church happened to do discipline and take the Christian life seriously. The fact that I believe in libertarian free will never comes up. That's how much I care about denominations. Actually I was Orthodox and I still like a lot of their doctrine but they got problems with sacraments and idolatry and whatnot (The biggest icon in the church I went to was Mary).
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a41200 No.843377
>>843376
I am exactly where you are about libertarian free will and reformed churches. I would happily go to a reformed church if it were better in my town, and unfortunately for us they usually are when it comes to piety and reverence.
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4c45b5 No.843383
>>843373
>Sola fide means salvation is not of works, but faith alone
That's what I said
Sola = only
Fide = faith
>James 2 does not teach that works contribute to salvation, only that they are necessarily present with salvation. It doesn't alternatively teach that works don't contribute to salvation
Ok that's a reasonable way to put it if what you're saying is that you need both. The works is what proves you have the faith. Which is why the Catholic position is Faith AND works because "by their fruits you will know them". Someone can't claim to believe in Jesus while living a sinful life and not practice virtues and also someone can't act like a Christian like being humble and charitable and not degenerate but not believe otherwise "moral" (for lack of a better word) atheists could go to heaven. Faith is definitely the more important element in salvation cause it's from that faith where the grace to amend one's life and live accordingly comes from.
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a41200 No.843384
>>843383
You aren't at all engaging with sola fide
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2fb962 No.843385
>>843029
None of this is surprising. The Blessed Mother warned about all this and the Bible says not to idolize anything but God including the Church. The villain on the stage isn't a clown. He's more like Sauron and Cooler, a very capable and powerful monster to whom manipulating the holiest of fallen mankind is trivial.
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4c45b5 No.843386
>>843384
What I know of sola fide is what I hear from preachers like Steven Anderson and he makes it sound like salvation comes from just faith nothing else that no matter what you do or don't do or what sins you commit they'll be forgiven on the spot and you'll still be justified on the merit of Christ.
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e3757e No.843387
>>843385
>The Blessed Mother
>not to idolize anything
>calling God an 'idol'
LOOK AT THIS DUDE
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a41200 No.843390
>>843386
>What I know of sola fide is what I hear from preachers like Steven Anderson
So nothing since Steven Anderson hates the Protestant tradition and Martin Luther
You need to start reading real books if you want to talk about Protestant theology
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4c45b5 No.843392
>>843390
That's the thing, I didn't want to talk about it in the first place. I was asked a question and I gave an answer and it snowballed from there.
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a41200 No.843393
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e3757e No.843394
>>843386
>well this total idiot nutjob heretic who is little more than a tired meme had this to say on Sola Fide, so I thought it was relevant somehow
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e3757e No.843396
>>843393
No it isn't. The dude is asking to be talked back into Catholicism and a lot of us think this would instead be a good opportunity to talk him into more profitable doctrine.
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4c45b5 No.843397
>>843396
I'm convinced of Catholicism and that it's doctrine is the more profitable one and even if I wasn't I'd go Orthodox before I'd go protestant. Sorry
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e3757e No.843399
>>843397
Yeah, I wouldn't talk you out of Orthodoxy. But if you're going to be a Catholic, at least realize the ecumenical councils of John Paul were a total abomination. Dude literally set up altars to foreign Gods in the Vatican, how you gonna defend that?
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a41200 No.843400
>>843397
you have been unable to articulate the central argument of protestantism so consider not being so dismissive
>>843396
its fair that he doesn't have immediate answers when the question was brought to him
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4c45b5 No.843401
>>843399
John Paul II never called an ecumenical council.
I don't defend what he did that's why I was briefly considering sedevacantism while Protestantism never even crossed my mind. Of course I found the answer and that in order for a Pope to lose jurisdiction the Bishops would have to publicly declare him to be a heretic and depose him after his heresy was proven. What I was struggling with is the claim that heresy ipsofacto makes him lose jurisdiction.
>>843400
I believe in the Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church in fact that's what brought me to the Catholic Church in the first place and now I'm devoted to Our Lady. That's what draws me to it. The fact Protestants reject it is what repels me the most from the protestant Churches.
>he doesn't have immediate answers when the question was brought to him
I mean I still stand by what I said, I just now have a better understanding of what the tradition meaning of sola fide is and it doesn't seam that different from the Catholic position.
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a41200 No.843402
>>843401
your priorities are arbitrary
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ede9cb No.843403
>>843387
Look at this primitive prot and his pilpul. He's so triggered by the very mention of Catholicism he cannot comprehend the Mother of God being right about something without immediately jumping to accusations of idolatry.
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4c45b5 No.843404
>>843402
Not really.
The protestant belief about Mary isn't biblical.
That she wasn't sinless, or the mother of God or an eternal virgin, that she had other kids and someone in this thread had a problem with calling Mary the blessed mother >>843387 even though in the Bible Mary says "all generations will call me blessed".
That's an indicator for me.
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a41200 No.843405
>>843404
Can you point me to where in Romans 3:23 it says "except mary"?
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4c45b5 No.843408
>>843405
It doesn't have to say except Mary because the Bible already established she was without sin.
We know Mary was in a state of sanctifying Grace cause of Luke 1:28
She was in this state before Christ was even born so how could she be in a state of Grace before the death of Jesus if God hadn't preserved from sin before hand?
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e3757e No.843409
>>843403
God has no mother. Mary was only the mother of Jesus the man. What did he say to the Nazarenes that said "Isn't this Jesus the Nazarene, the son of Joseph and Mary?". He pointed to his disciples and said "These are my mother and father and sister and brother". Why? Because his real father is God and his true family is the church and while Mary was part of the church and he treated her respectfully as a son should his mother, he wanted to point out there is no significance about him being the child of Mary or a Nazarene. He completely dismissed the idea that his mother should receive some kind of special veneration right there.
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e3757e No.843410
>>843409
crap, I didn't mean to add father there. Yikesers.
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4c45b5 No.843411
>>843409
>Mary was only the mother of Jesus the man
>Implying Jesus the God and Jesus the man are two different persons
No Jesus is God, he was God while he was still in her womb and was God after
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a41200 No.843414
>>843408
Eisegesis, and yes it would. Additionally, click that strong's number and you'll see that grace means unmerited favor, as in she was imperfect human but esteemed by God anyway.
Can you explain to me why it took until 1854 for the roman church to declare this doctrine from the stand of papal infallibility, and why the pope needed to declare it from his position of special revelation in addition to the scripture?
There is no sense in which roman catholic mariology is more biblical than protestant, and if that's what drew you to the roman church it wasn't because you read the bible and dispassionately came to a roman catholic conclusion.
>>843409
Jesus is God
Jesus had a mother in the incarnation
There is no problem with theotokos
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e3757e No.843416
>>843411
Yes but his mother was only responsible for the man part of his parentage. There are a lot of problems saying Mary is the mother of God. For one thing he existed for an eternity before she did.
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4c45b5 No.843418
>>843414
No Catholic ever said that she was given this grace by her own merit. God is the one who did it to her so that Christ could be born to a pure womb.
That still doesn't answer the question as to how she could be in a state of grace before the crucifixion.
No, she wasn't just simply esteemed, she was in Grace the same Grace we all get after coming to have faith in Christ but she had it before hand for the sake of Jesus and by God's merit.
The reason is Protestantism.
The immaculate conception was always believed by Christians. Protestants came along thousands of years later and totally alter the faith. Very few denied it until protestants came along so then the Church had to step in and set the record straight.
.
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me {ante A.D. 235).
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1 {A.D. 244).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 {A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin 71:216 {ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22, 30 {A.D. 388).
>>843416
No, Jesus is the God-man there is no separating the two you're espousing an ancient heresy called Nestorianism
This protestant >>843414 says there's nothing wrong with theotokos so y'all get that straighten out before you try to use to convert a Catholic
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a41200 No.843421
>>843418
All have sinned, true or false?
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e3757e No.843422
>>843418
I'm not trying to convert a catholic through this doctrine. I'm asking why did Jesus exist before Mary if she is his mother somewhere beyond the physical realm. And every "heresy" has a name, bucko. I'm not surprised that I got slapped with an "ism" over this. I'm not saying Mary is "just some woman", but no, she did not create God. And where in scripture does it say she had no sin until her death? That would totally contradict penal substitution if some human other than Jesus could live a life without sin.
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4c45b5 No.843424
>>843421
Flase
Here's why
That said, I go now to linguistic reference works. Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Abridged Ed.) states:
Pas can have different meanings according to its different uses . . . in many verses, pas is used in the NT simply to denote a great number, e.g., “all Jerusalem” in Mt 2:3 and “all the sick” in 4:24. (pp. 796-797)
See also Matthew 3:5; 21:10; 27:25; Mark 2:13; 9:15; etc., especially in KJV.
Likewise, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament gives “of every kind” as a possible meaning in some contexts (p. 491, Strong’s word #3956). And Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words tells us it can mean “every kind or variety.” (vol. 1, p. 46, under “All”).
Nevertheless, I am inclined to go with the “exception” interpretation I described above. My point here is simply to illustrate that pas doesn’t necessarily have to mean “no exceptions,” so that Mary’s sinlessness is not a logical impossibility based on the meaning of pas alone.
We see Jewish idiom and hyperbole in passages of similar meaning. Jesus says: “No one is good but God alone” (Lk 18:19; cf. Mt 19:17). Yet He also said: “The good person brings good things out of a good treasure.” (Mt 12:35; cf. 5:45; 7:17-20; 22:10). Furthermore, in each instance in Matthew and Luke above of the English “good” the Greek word is the same: agatho.
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/darmstrong/all-have-sinned-vs.-a-sinless-immaculate-mary
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a41200 No.843425
>>843418
Here's a refutation of your claim, first page on a websearch.
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a41200 No.843427
>>843424
>All have sinned
>False
We have officially left the realm of biblical argument.
To your argument, there is no contextual reason to understand all as hyperbolic. Even if you argued this you cannot directly contradict scripture, which you have.
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e3757e No.843428
>>843427
the world all is problematic. If we took 'all' to mean 'all' then we'd have to think that we literally cannot take the mark of the beast.
"16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads"
Revelation 13:16
I'm not even arguing with you. I don't believe Mary is sinless or the literal mother of God either but just taking a short verse like that isn't going to establish anything.
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a41200 No.843429
>>843428
We have literary reason in that context to read all as hyperbolic that we don't in Romans
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e3757e No.843430
>>843429
Really? On what basis?
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4c45b5 No.843432
>>843425
Very poor refutation.You got 5 one from some bishop quotes 2 of which are not about Mary
Even the greatest doctor of the Church St. Thomas Aquinas denied the immaculate conception
Here's more in favor
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace 4, 36 {A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 {ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 6, 11{ante A.D. 446).
“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 {A.D. 449).
“The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug {ante A.D. 521).
“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption 5:6 {ante A.D. 650).
“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God…. The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon 1 On the Birth of Mary {A.D. 733).
“Truly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali {ante A.D. 733).
“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! Oh glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily 1 {ante A.D. 749).
>>843427
>We have officially left the realm of biblical argument.
No, we have left the realm of protestant interpretation.
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4c45b5 No.843433
>>843429
>We have literary reason in that context to read all as hyperbolic that we don't in Romans
No we don't actually.
In fact with other verses it's the exacts opposite which is why I say we left protestant interpretation.
One might also note 1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” As far as physical death is concerned (the context of 1 Cor 15), not “all” people have died (e.g., Enoch: Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5; Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11). Likewise, “all” will not be made spiritually alive by Christ, as some will choose to suffer eternal spiritual death in hell.
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2fb962 No.843434
>>843428
>the world all is problematic.
Why are typos and freudian slips always so much deeper than people's actual thoughts? Although to be fair your mark of the beast comment was still pretty deep.
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e3757e No.843443
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f6d52f No.843458
>>843409
Nestorius, werent you supposed to be dead?
Stop denying the hypostatic union already.
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e3757e No.843460
>>843458
Jesus: Believe as this child or you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven
Christians: TULIP! MODALISM! HYPOSTATIC UNION!
7 year old: literally what?
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e999b6 No.843462
>>843460
Christians don't believe in TULIP or Modalism though.
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e3757e No.843464
>>843462
I've noticed how all the denominations with the worst doctrine say you can't find salvation outside of their specific version of Christianity? You got Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, 7th Day Adventists and you guys.
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e999b6 No.843467
>>843464
It is true that there is no salvation outside the Church, and it is also very obviously true that the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit. The ecclesiology of the Catholic Church is inerrent.
The JWs, Mormons and 7th day adventists have nothing to back up their claims that they have anything to do with Christ. When they say that there is no salvation outside their sects, it is because they wish they had what the Catholic Church has.
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e3757e No.843469
>>843467
You guys have one inflated passage that doesn't even support the idea that the real church wasn't the one in Constantinople and therefore puts you on equal footing with the Orthodox Church, which btw doesn't believe you need to go to the Orthodox Church and kowtow to its representatives to be saved.
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e999b6 No.843471
>>843469
The eastern schismatics are distinguished by the fact that they actually share in the apostolic succession unlike the sects aforementioned.
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e3757e No.843472
>>843471
The problem with that is Jesus never said nobody could be saved if they didn't go to Peter's church. So all denominations do ultimately is provide differing doctrine, most of which isn't necessary to get right to have saving faith. If God says "Nope fam, you got it wrong. Catholic. Catholic was the right religion" I'd be perhaps even more surprised than coming face to face with Allah after my death.
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f6d52f No.843473
>>843472
There is a genius lecture by Pope Benedict reflecting on this subject, a comment on Vatican II's "Lumen Gentium".
Reflect on it, the logic is surprisingly simple, when distilled(or dismiss it without thinking, and be a fool)
>The text does not simply say, "The Church is entirely present in each community that celebrates the Eucharist", rather it states: "This Church of Christ is truly present in all legitimate local communities of the faithful which, united with their pastors, are themselves called Churches". Two elements here are of great importance: to be a Church the community must be "legitimate"; they are legitimate when they are "united with their pastors". What does this mean? In the first place, no one can make a Church by himself. A group cannot simply get together, read the New Testament and declare: "At present we are the Church because the Lord is present wherever two or three are gathered in His name". The element of "receiving" belongs essentially to the Church, just as faith comes from "hearing" and is not the result of one's decision or reflection. Faith is a converging with something I could neither imagine nor produce on my own; faith has to come to meet me. We call the structure of this encounter, a "Sacrament". It is part of the fundamental form of a sacrament that it be received and not self-administered. No one can baptize himself. No one can ordain himself. No one can forgive his own sins. Perfect repentance cannot remain something interior—of its essence it demands the form of encounter of the Sacrament. This too is a result of a sacrament's fundamental structure as an encounter [with Christ]. For this reason communion with oneself is not just an infraction of the external provisions of Canon Law, but it is an attack on the innermost nature of a sacrament. That a priest can administer this unique sacrament, and only this sacrament, to himself is part of the mysterium tremendum in which the Eucharist involves him. In the Eucharist, the priest acts "in persona Christi", in the person of Christ [the Head]; at the same time he represents Christ while remaining a sinner who lives completely by accepting Christ's Gift.
>One cannot make the Church but only receive her; one receives her from where she already is, where she is really present: the sacramental community of Christ's Body moving through history. It will help us to understand this difficult concept if we add something: "legitimate communities". Christ is everywhere whole. This is the first important formulation of the Council in union with our Orthodox brothers. At the same time Christ is everywhere only one, so I can possess the one Lord only in the unity that He is, in the unity of all those who are also His Body and who through the Eucharist must evermore become it. >Therefore, the reciprocal unity of all those communities who celebrate the Eucharist is not something external added to Eucharistic ecclesiology, but rather its internal condition: in unity here is the One. This is why the Council recalls the proper responsibility of communities, but excludes any self-sufficiency.
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e3757e No.843474
>>843473
Why are you defending Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus and bearing an Eastern Orthodox flag?
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f6d52f No.843475
>>843474
Because we have the same doctrine.
We are just a bit less clear about where the Church isn't.
We def dont subscribe to some protestant invisible church of believers crap.
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