/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Is it true that JWs believe that Jesus Christ and Michael The Archangel are the same person? And if so, why?

I am curious if this is a troll? Seems like a JW would come here to evangelize, not to explain their own beliefs

If Christ is not the Lord, why does John, the Baptist and Forerunner, prepare the way for the Lord given that it is Christ to whom the way is prepared? Given that Jesus is called Lord and you say he is created, why do you put the name Lord on a created person? If you don't, say that Jesus is not Lord, if you do; tell why do you worship creation.

>>842816

Yea, we do believe they are the same. As with most beliefs they are based on numerous texts but I'll do my best to summarize.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 is a major text in this belief, as it refers to Jesus himself with an archangels voice.

Now another reason we believe this is because in the Bible archangel is a singular word, referencing only 1.

At Revelations 19:14-16 we see Jesus is the leader of the heavenly armies, and at Revelations 12:7, for the greatest war in the heavens, Michael himself leads the battle with his angels.

As it isn't uncommon for people in the Bible to have more than one name, we believe that Michael is simply Jesus' heavenly name.

>>842820

Jesus is our lord, and John the Baptist did prepare the way for him. Yet Colossians 1:15 and Revelations 3:14 both state he is the first of all creation by God.

>>842821

Why should we believe you are actually a JW?

>>842822

I mean it's up to you, but I can't imagine why anyone would pretend to be of a different religion.

But yes, I am a JW.

have you witnessed Jehovah

>>842821

The scripture you use to make Jesus out to be the Archangel Michael seems to be built around the idea that you misinterpret military composition. Throughout the Bible, David does lead his men in war, but he also isn't there for every battle, there's someone who operates for him in the field, making decisions there. Just as Michael does for Jesus.

The commander of the militaries aren't always in the field or directly commanding. By the argument you're giving, General Mark A. Milley and Donald Trump are the same because Mark A. Milley controls day-to-day operations and Trump doesn't.

Charles Raze Russell was a man who claimed insight that others did not have. He claimed God had chosen him to bring the word, correctly, to the world. Among many of his claims, he said that John 1 was mistranslated and that Jesus and God are not one, the problem arises that, this then stands out from the rest of the Bible for a multitude of reasons:

1. John 10:30 has Jesus claiming "I and the Father are one."

2. The Bible shortly thereafter in John 10:33 show that the Pharisee want to kill Jesus because Jesus claims to be God, which was understood.

Number 1 is translated corrected in the NWT, but Number 2 in the NWT makes no sense, because why would they claim it is blasphemy for Jesus to claim God is with Him? This makes no sense because this is a claim that the Pharisee, essentially, made by word and deed in their actions continually. To say you were acting God's behalf wasn't that big of a deal, there were prophets who constantly did this throughout the Bible, so it seems to be a misinterpretation.

But I think the most problematic

3. In John 8:58, Jesus explains that He's God by stating, "I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I AM!" The NWT online, however, misses that this is a reference to Exodus 3:14 where God claims Himself as, "I AM!" Further, the NWT mistranslates this because "I have been" does not have the same impact as "I AM." "I AM" denotes there is no beginning, just as Exodus 3:14.

I can go through other parts where Jesus' disciples testify to Him as God, including John 20:28 where Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and My God!" to which Jesus does not correct him, and the various times He is worshiped, despite the fact that only God should be worshiped, but anyways, what I'm getting at is, how can the death of a created being atone for the sins of the mankind?

Jesus is God, its scriptural, you must convert. It makes no sense to abide by the bible and pretend Jesus isnt God.

Thomas:"My Lord and my God!"

You have to cherrypick passages where His divinity isnt clearly stated and then ignore all the other ones where it is clearly stated.

>>842821

If you have no problem worshipping creatures, I can't help you.

Otherwise, read Cl 1:17. Christ is not created, all that is created was made through the uncreated image of the Father that is him.

Is the image of the Father created? Then this image would be nothing but an idol.

>>842874

Sorry, meant Colossians 1:16-17.

>>842832

I'm not here to evangelize, this really is just an AMA so I'm just explaining what we believe and some brief reasons why. But just for discussions sake, the greatest battle to occur in heaven, in which the adversary himself takes part in would most definitely mean Jesus himself would take part in leading his angels. But again the main text is 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

>>842835

Russell was just another servant of God like all of us, he never claimed to receive any divine inspiration. He just interpreted the Bible.

As this is a question I'll tell you why we do not believe in the trinity.

John 1:1 states "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Now, most of John was written in greek, I have a greek bible but Ive found that https://biblehub.com/text/john/1-1.htm is pretty good.

Quite simply, in the first instance of God "The Word was with God" the word God here has a definitive article in the form of Ton, but the next time God is mentioned, "And God was the Word" the god here does not have a definitive article, meaning it is not an identification, it is instead a description, meaning that "God was the Word" really explains what Jesus was, divine and a spiritual creature like God. Not the same person as God.

I could go more in-depth but that's just a simple explanation, now there are other texts that we believe do not agree with the trinity.

Some include, John 14:28, the doctrine of the trinity states that all 3 are equal, yet here Jesus openly admits to the Father being greater. 1 Corinthians 15:28 also states that the Son is subjected to the Father.

One more just for fun, Matthew 24:36 states that the Son himself does not know the date of Armageddon, while only the father knows. If they are all equal, how could one know what the other does not.

>>842874

Yes, Jesus had a hand in all of creation, but as Colossians 1:15 states, he was the first of the creation, yet he also had a hand in creation, assisting the Father. We see this in Proverbs 8:22, 30.

Verse 22 onward is speaking about Jesus, and at 30 we see that he was a master worker besides God.

We have a lot in common with Eastern Orthodox, specifically towards what happened in the Garden of Eden and what it meant for humanity.

>>842894

I'm not really trying to evangelize either, I'm just pointing out flaws in your belief system.

I mean, Joseph Smith just interpreted the Bible too.

You never actually addressed any of the verses I stated. As for the verses you state, it's simple: Jesus was always pointing to God. That's what He did. In John 5:17-18, He again equated Himself with God. As for not knowing when Armageddon is, He was, again pointing to God which is supported by Philippians 2:6-7.

>>842894

I told you to read the entire text 1Cl 1:15-17, but you did not. All things were made through him, of course he was not made through him because he was not made but begotten before all things. Further, your interpretation does not fit with any part of the Bible like when the Word is called God in the beginning of John.

>>842894

>Not the same person as God.

Of course, he is not the same person as the Father.

>Jesus openly admits to the Father being greater

Orthodox trinitarianism preserves this since only the Father is autotheos, so much western call us subordinationists. Western formulations, yours being one among many, are wrong indeed. Westerners degenerated the distinction between person and essence. You're right in rejecting western trinitarianism, but your solution is false.

>One more just for fun, Matthew 24:36 states that the Son himself does not know the date of Armageddon, while only the father knows. If they are all equal, how could one know what the other does not.

You have a cartesian worldview of a mental space that "has" or "has not" information and you're projecting to ordinary language that goes against it. To know something is to be able to expose, which he could not since he did not become man to show us this.

>>842811

Quick question:

If knowledge of God's name is so important, why do we have to debate if Jehovah is the supposed transliteration of YHWH from a non-tiberian marked Hebrew, instead of going to the NT, which is written in Greek, and has vocals?

The thing is, the NT uses Kyrios(Lord) when talking about God or translation YHWH, and pretty much every theological work written in Greek(including the Septuagint OT), before or after Christ, uses Kyrios, so it seems to have been the norm for a significant time before this whole Christianity thing started.

Even in off-hand patristic references, it's either variants of Iao or /ja'vε/.

>>842811

There was a Muslim AMA recently.

Pretty sure you're the same guy and neither a Muslim nor a Jehovah's Witness. Just a s—poster.