/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>841460

The oldest stories about this revolving around Mary are apocryphal (like the Book of Mary's Repose) and debated or outright dismissed even among the Church Fathers. The Book of Mary's Repose is especially a Gnostic document (and the whole idea of her not experiencing physical death is also a Gnostic idea in itself. It's a denial of material reality). St. Epiphanius was a bishop who knew of these varying traditions himself and wrote about the confusing matter in the 4th century. "No one knows her end," he concluded. He also condemned the excessive Marian devotion in this apocryphal work I mentioned. Which is interesting on it's own. They loved Mary, but Marianism was completely alien to them. None of the early church were excessive about it like the later Renaissance (and after) periods.

People like Epiphanius should be real church tradition, if anything: a spirit of inquiry and humble investigation from real bishops rather than Gnostics and questionable apocryphal sources.

This is also a good lesson for everyone who swings in the opposite direction and dismisses church history and church fathers, assuming it's full of distortions and lies. When it couldn't be further from the truth. Often, you'll find humble men like Epiphanius and Protestants would do well to read them. The Reformers and Anglicans were once good about this - they knew the Church Fathers well and combatted Rome by quoting the church fathers.

>>841466

Also, as an aside, Epiphanius was even more famous for being a sort of a "proto" iconoclast. He famously torn down a curtain with images of a saint when he was in a church in Palestine and wrote to the bishop of Jerusalem questioning why it was even there and said that it was against "our religion". This is another interesting angle on the subject of "tradition". Orthodox and Catholics would tell you that true "tradition" is the 7th Council hundreds of years later that declared images as good. Yet at the same time, they have a saint in the 4th century who tore these images down.

He's still a saint in the Orthodox and Catholic churches, but I'm not sure why. He wasn't Marian or liked images. Two big strikes. He was also a Jewish convert and a native of Israel. Yet a strong believer in Christ. Something that was completely unknown in later years, unfortunately. I wonder why this became so rare.

>>841460

The "traditions" of the apostles are what we call the "New Testament". What here"Cathodox"tics want you to think its the traditions theologians made (especially during the monastic movement) throughout ~2000 years after Christ.

Ofc, they'll back peddle the issue then ask 'you who gets to interpret the bible?' being hopeful by taking the bait and eventually conclude the same theologians that I mentioned before, even though the first person to write a commentary about the four gospels is a disciple of the Apostle John (Papias) no one held to high esteem.

You want to know the first tradition that was claimed to be apostle outside of the bible? Irenaeus of Lyon wrote the Apostle John taught in many churches that Jesus was over 50 years old. No believes that, not even the the Assyrian Church of the East!

What does that say about latter "apostolic traditions" outside of the bible?-not good!

>>841460

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25_

Tradition is extremely important, but you're sort of right about one thing: Catholics.

They don't even believe in Tradition. They literally changed aspects of it and added completely un-traditional concepts to it, thus changing the word of God.

Believing you're above all the ecumenical synods and that you're able to interpret the Bible yourself is a filthy act of pride and frankly quite dumb.

How do you explain "the Bible interprets itself" when there are thousands of sola scriptura sects and cults each claiming to hold the absolutely correct interpretation.

After a talk with an SDA he said "truth is being revealed to us gradually". Mate, Christ is the absolute Truth and He established everything 2000 years ago.

Protestantism is complete insanity and Catholicism is corrupt. The Eastern Orthodox Church is the only true Church of Christ. Repent and begome

>>841477

Adventism is a a restorationist movement so it's deviating from reformation theology in that regard. Don't consider a post by an SDA representative. We've historically considered them a cult, just until recently when they've toned it down.

>>841478

To me each of you are a cult.

I understand what you're trying to say but if you exclude false prophets like Joseph Smith, Ellen White, etc. you're still left with a TON of denominations who each claim that they have the absolute truth from the Bible, yet none of them fully agree on doctrine.

All of your objections towards Apostolic practices have been debated over and over again and you have not yet understood that nothing we do contradicts the Scripture and that salvation is not by works.

Protestants are literally arguing semantics and have both incomplete and heretical doctrines.

What a fun issue

T. Ex presbytarian

To

Ex Catholic

Current

IFB Baptist

Went from "some tradition is good and up to the individual, everyone practices different"

To "tradition should be guided by a church with an authoritative structure with freedom of tradition" and now I think if there is any tradition, it is the Tradition that God wants us to have and that it's a clear message found in our Bible, and no Church can make decrees.

>>841481

You're making two distinct arguments

I genuinely don't understand how someone can believe in eternal life and complain about prayers for the deceased. If you want a bible verse, there is Matthew 22:32.

Smells more like general distaste of prayer.

>>841466

Epiphanius is orthodox, meaning he did not believe in the immacullate conception or assumption of Mary. He does call her Theotokos and Ever-virgin, like every other orthodox.

>>841486

Then genuinely do some more reading outside of your tradition.

Did you really mean "for" or did you mean "to"?

Prayers for the deceased require a prior idea that the plight of the dead can be affected by the living, but it is appointed once for man to die and after that comes judgment. Also see Luke 16.

This is notably a Mormon idea, they practice baptisms vicariously for the deceased.

Prayers to the deceased is the hot topic where certain parties spend more time misrepresenting those of us with concerns under the defense of intercession and no time at all addressing the undeniable idolatry of praying to the deceased as divine actors themselves present among them. These people without question adapted pagan concepts into Christian terms, see Mexico.

Your appeal to that verse is textbook eisegesis since in context the topic is the resurrection of the dead.

>>841508

I didn't understand a single thing you said but if you think there is no eternal life we cannot agree.

>>841523

What Baptist have you ever met who rejects eternal life

>>841529

You. You just said they aren't alive, but dead.

>>841530

I used the term found in the verse. In all other places of the post I used the term "deceased" like you.

Do you reject the resurrection of the dead?

>>841531

No. I just don't understand how you can both believe that the departed are alive and being bothered by communion with them.

>>841472

Saints are still people, they can have differing opinions on things. It's worth reading about all of them but tradition should be determined by consensus.

>>841477

>Protestantism is complete insanity and Catholicism is corrupt. The Eastern Orthodox Church is the only true Church of Christ. Repent and begome

>God says he'll bless his people and protect them.

>God says he'll give them rest and make them prosper in Ezekiel 34 and Deuteronomy 28 so others know they're following God correctly and that God is their Lord.

>God misses the memo that Orthodoxy is correct and doesn't.

Yeah, Orthodoxy…

>>841460

The problem arises because Catholics and Orthodox aren't led to ask questions. They worship, I mean, venerate, Mary, but does the Bible support this? No.

They pray to the saints, but does the Bible support this? No.

They Bible says call no man father, so they call someone father.

But it all begins with, the Bible doesn't support the idea that Peter was pope, so they follow tradition that someone else made.

The only difference between the traditions of a lot of Catholics/Orthodox and Mormons is that Mormons wrote down their traditions.

>>841570

This board is infested with people like you who are convinced that anyone who disagrees with them is merely lazy to research.

A man who believes the Sun goes around the Earth and another who believes otherwise lives on the same reality, you know.

>>841613

Ironic post

>>841613

It's the act of venerating that leads me to believe you all are too lazy and too dumb to research it. Does this take glory away from God? Yes. Does the Bible support this? No. Does the home insinuate those in heaven can hear everyone talking to them? No. How about anyone talking to them? No. Well, does anything support this act? Well, some people said to that couldn't find clear scripture to support it and also happen to believe all knowledge and questions of the Bible should be filtered through them.

So, do I think Catholics are lazy? I mean, there's all that. And that's just off the top of my head on a big subject to them.

>>841622

Does the Bible insinuate those in heaven can hear everyone talking to them? No.

>>841622

<The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself (John 11:25; 14:6) and the bread of life who bestows life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56). The saints are alive in heaven because of the life they have received through their faith in Christ Jesus and through their eating of his body and blood.

<The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).

I hope this helps.

>>841676

It's not a matter of information but of perspective, why won't you realize that?