/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>840993

What are your motives for not believing in God?

>>840995

Nothing really, just the fact there’s absolutely no reason to believe he exists. Christianity is the greatest religion IMO, but I’m not gonna lie to myself.

>>840996

>just the fact there’s absolutely no reason to believe he exists.

That's not true. Why don't you want to believe in God?

>>840998

I mean it’s not like I have a reason to deny the existence of god like oil execs and climate change. I don’t have any motive I just don’t think he exists is all. I want to believe in God of course but I realistically can’t.

>>840999

Have you heard of the cosmological argument?

>>841001

Yeah it’s not very good. If there’s a first uncreated mover, it could either be an infinitely advanced being, or just a ton of energy with a few arbitrary physical laws. It ignores that from this perspective the atheist argument is still the most likely.

No, it's a contradiction

>>841005

Sure. Thanks for the recommendation

>>841003

There’s a lot more to Christianity than just faith. For example, cultural Christians. I just don’t fall under that category because nobody in my family is religious.

>>841002

>it could either be an infinitely advanced being, or just a ton of energy with a few arbitrary physical laws.

What is the distinction? Why does this matter?

>>841007

Because if we had to assume one existed and created the universe, it takes way less faith to believe a blind, dumb, unintelligent but powerful force of matter and physics created it. Not an infinitely complex deity.

>>841008

>it takes way less faith to believe a blind, dumb, unintelligent but powerful force of matter and physics created it. Not an infinitely complex deity.

What's the difference? You're just as much a deterministic system as He is but you're much simpler, just a result of Him working, not the perfect creator Himself that existed before all entropy and decay.

>>841012

If I’m much simpler, then I’m more likely to exist given that he’s a much more advanced life form than I am.

>>841014

That conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.

>>841015

It wasn’t a real argument, just an analogy. My point is because of emergence, something simple is way more likely to exist than something that is complex, let alone something as complex as God. That’s how evolution works.

>>841017

And evolution is not a theory for the origin of the cosmos. You are still stuck with the problem of ex nihilo nihil fit

>>841017

Every composite must have potentiality and actuality.

God is entirely actual.

God is not composite and therefore simple.

God is not composed or divisible by any physical or metaphysical means. Simplicity of God refers to the fact that he has no parts. The simplicity teaching extends to the entire nature of God. His substance, nature, and very being is that of utter simplicity.

The properties attributed to God such as omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence do not contradict the teaching of simplicity because each property is a different way of looking at the infinite active being of God from a limited perspective.

One consequence of this teaching is the fact that since God is simple, he must be a pure spirit.

>>841037

No because emergence is an observed feature of the universe. It's not a force or a law of physics even. It's just the natural procession of how things go from simple to complex.

In other words, emergence doesn't talk about the origin of the universe, just how it functions.

>>841039

Ok. Setting that aside, I'm asking about the origin of the universe, something which can only be explained by the supernatural.

>>841040

My point of using emergence is to show that things evolve from simplicity to complexity. Something as complex as God must have come from somewhere. Problem with Christian protogenesis is that it's turtles all the way down.

Either way, I didn't want to have a debate about whether or not God exists. Any old Atheist can make bait-tier threads about how they can disprove him or whatever. I just want to know if I can convert to Christianity even if I don't believe in God.

>>841041

>Something as complex as God must have come from somewhere

Except God is perfectly simple. Aquinas even uses that argument to demonstrate as much like >>841038

points out.

>>841043

Oh I didn't see that comment.

We can't just say that God is perfectly simple like that. If we could then I would make the point that the universe is perfectly simple; everything is fundamentally energy. And of the two perfectly simple things, it makes way more sense to assume the one we actually know exists to be the existing one.

Again Im not really out to argue about theism.

>>841044

The universe has potentiality and actuality.

The universe is therefore composite.

>>841041

There are a great many points you have been raised to hold that are contrary to Christianity, and belief in God is a necessary condition of being Christian. But, if you go to a church, begin your conversion, receive your catechesis and sacraments charitably, then you will be closer to being a Christian than you were before.

>>841045

I don't see why it's a necessary condition. Of course it's a big part, but it's one part of the entire christian phusis. At worst it would make me a bad christian I think.

>>840993

The only reason to become a Christian is to meet God. And to escape eternal suffering (which is the absence of God).

>>841047

If that’s actually what you think then you have a very sad narrow view of Christianity.

>>841048

It's the biggest possible view one can have. There is nothing bigger than God and eternity. I shouldn't even have to point that out. It's elementary.

>>841050

Only seeing Christianity as hell insurance is sad. I shouldn’t have to explain that.

>>841051

Those are your words. Not mine. I said that lacking God is eternal suffering. This, above all, is what Hell truly is. You could physically suffer all manner of pain and evil, but it would be nothing as long as you have God. It would not be Hell. True Hell is a life without God. This is what you must escape. Yet you embrace it, strangely. You're missing out.

You may not think about God, but he does think about you.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." - Jeremiah 29:11

>>841054

This is a whole new level of Protestantism

>>841054

It’s not like that I don’t want to embrace it. I just don’t believe in God.

>>841056

ok go away then

>>841066

Christlike

>>841067

yeah you should try it

but you don't wanna

so go away

>>841069

Inability=/=willingness

>>841070

welp you heard him OP

either you're like a man in a wheelchair trying to jump a hurdle or you're just a big baby who can't rub some dirt on it and get back out there

>>841071

Im not the person who's seetheing over some person who believes in -1 god less than you guys entering a safe space.

>>841072

some people go to heaven while the rest go to hell

it's a "safe space" religion

>>841073

Threatening me with hell for not believing in invisible man, despite me wanting to follow the religion at least on a superficial level, is extremely tone deaf. It's just theism dude, it doesn't really matter as long as I follow the rest of the religion and don't act subversive at my church.

>>841075

If you want Christianity minus the God part, why not just become and Aristotelian virtue ethicist? The whole point of Christian ethics is to live in a way pleasing to God. If you don't believe in God or believe he's distant from His creation, there's no point to it.

>>841075

ok here's the answer to your original question.

>Can you be a Christian without believing in God?

no

goodbye

>>841076

It's not about ethics alone, I dont really see christianity or the Nicomichean ethics as a good ethical guide. I do practice virtue ethics to some extend but in all honesty, Im mostly a consequentialist with VE on the side.I want to follow christianity because it offers a healthy lifestyle.

>>841077

About to prove you wrong. See you in church anon.

>>841078

see ya in hell op :^)

>>841079

To see me in hell, you would have to be going there first. Which you probably are given how you're trying to gatekeep the flock.

>>841080

it ain't my fault you deny God.

>>841081

I just find it really weird that christians that are still theistic are making such a big stink about this. There's christians that have tons of bats- crazy beliefs entirely unsupported by the bible but few christians b– about them.

>>841082

just come out and say you're an atheist

>>841084

I am. But I’m one who wants to become a Christian.

>>840999

Have you tried dedicating yourself to prayer and fasting?

>>841001

Arguments are effeminate.

>>841087

I have not tried that yet. I’m not a fan of fasting but prayer could be fun.

>>841086

if you wanna be a "secular christian" go hang out with richard dawkins

>>841089

Haha yeah I get it because we’re actually militant atheists. Really creative and original.

>>841080

>To see me in hell, you would have to be going there first.

nah i would just have to see you're not in heaven

>>841091

It just hit me. You actually believe in hell. Which means you’re making light of me going there for disagreeing with you. That’s pretty sick and very unchristlike

>>841078

>I want to follow christianity because it offers a healthy lifestyle.

I suggest praying and actually believing in God. Literally the heart of Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the Son of the Father (through their mutual love create the Holy Spirit) and He loved the world so much he died for it in order to reconcile His creation to Himself.

>>841092

you're going there for disagreeing with God. i don't make the rules i follow them.

>>841093

If only it were that easy my catholic friend

>>841094

That’s a really dumb rule, that one is saved by faith and not by anything else. That’s a really stupid rule for an actual god to have, but a perfect rule for a cult leader who just wants to spread his religion.

>>841099

Cute Lainpost

It might work but given the fact I didn’t grow up in a Christian family I don’t have the benefit of childhood indoctrination to really give me the edge of true belief. I guess it’s worth a shot but I fear I’m basically stuck like this.

>>841098

a cult leader would prefer "saved by works" if he wanted to benefit from religion

>>841103

Nope. He would overhype saves by faith because his primary goal would be to spread belief in his religion. There’s a reason Islam and every other cult is so obsessed with faith

>>841100

Just wanted to apologise. Demons are very legalistic. The prayer should have been:

"Dear God, you know that I don't really believe in you but whilst I pretend you're there, I would like to request the temporary presence of Our Lady and I would like to ask that while she is here, that I receive the grace of faith. Thank you. Amen"

With the original prayer, Our Lady would become present (thereby ejecting any demon affecting you from the immediate vicinity due to her holiness) and so you would be capable of receiving the grace of faith, that is if it were requested, truly, you may receive it but since it was not explicitly requested, you wouldn't actually get that grace.

This reworded version makes it very explicit that you actually get the grace. Peace.

>>841107

Thanks. If I pray this genuinely but do not gain belief, does it stand in my favor to prevent me from going to Hell? Just curious how the process works

>>841105

well that's how it works

don't like it >>841066

simple as

>>841109

no

>>841111

Was just curious.

>>841110

Fine. Get bent.

>>841112

maybe the next time you take a crack at this christianity thing you would remember the bible's most famous verse John 3:16

>>841115

The part where god sacrificed himself to himself to make himself happy? Yeah that makes perfect sense. Not weird or nonsense whatsoever.

>>841088

Prayer, as everything, grows on oneself. Habit does not follow motivation but motivation follows habit.

As an exercise, consider pondering the use of saying "thy will be done".

>>841117

Prayer is good at face value but I feel it will always be empty

>>841116

That's a vulgarized version of love that is indeed condemnable. I believe that the proper understanding is that power of love allows the lover to partake of that which is of the loved. Love allowed God to become incarnate and partake in all that is ours, even death, thus it also allows us to partake in all that is of God, even eternal life.

OP is a troll. He has no interest. Shut the thread down.

>>841118

Of what would it be empty? How would full prayer differ from this "empty" prayer?

>>841220

It feels like theistic christians would feel the power of prayer that I wouldn't.

>>841219

Be silent nondenominational

Why do you want to be a Christian then?

Am I missing something here or am I just confused?

>>841228

For social reasons and a solid foundation to build my life on.

>>841230

There's no reason to deny the Lord. Did you form yourself? If not, then, when you pray, pray toward that which did form you. You didn't happen by chance. Anyone with a mind knows this to be true. Pray only towards him. Find that you can ask for things from the same creator who is not willing that anyone should be kept out of the truth who doesn't want it.

>>841233

No I didn't form myself, I was formed as the conclusion of billions of years of prior evolution. It doesn't take a genius to put that together.

>>841230

The "solid foundation" that you refer to is God. You can't be Christian without believing in God and choosing to serve him.

If you truly wish to have the "shell" of a Christian then I think all you have to do is focus on developing the four classical Cardinal virtues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_virtues

You can look into Aristotle's idea of what the virtues are in your own time as this is something I'm uneducated on. Best of luck.

>>841235

The solid foundation in reality is the fellowship of the church. The relationships formed. I read the Nicomachean Ethics, so I do understand Virtue Theory. Becoming a Christian would be a positive step for me to start living a well balanced clean life.

>>841234

You didn't happen by accident, friend. You didn't!

>>841239

True my parents had a planned pregnancy.

>>841221

I think you're wrongfully thinking that the deeper the emotion, the deeper the truth. That is false.

It is simply wrong to assume there is anything going on in a hidden machination that differentiates a man who says "I love you" in theater and another who says truthfully. The difference lies in their dedication or, here is the keyword, faithfulness.

>>841243

No I dont think that. That's why I don't think believing in God is all that important to at least practice christianity

>>841250

But you still equated belief with sureness in this post. How I take it, belief is not sureness or certitude.

Further, you say this sureness is not necessary for practice but you disregarded my call to prayer. I see this as a contradiction.

You and I both agree this sureness is not basis for practice, so why don't you pray? Go on, pray. It does no harm. You might perhaps find yourself in my shoes a year or two from now, saying that the ineffable gift of faith cannot be searched with words, for it is ineffable, but can only be found when we stay silent.

>>840993

>Can you be a Christian without believing in God?

No. If you don't believe in God then why would you believe in Jesus?

<Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

>>840996

>ust the fact there’s absolutely no reason to believe he exists.

The evidence is all around you. systems, order, logic, etc. Why do humans believe in justice and court systems? Why do animals not have court systems? We're made in the image of God

Pardon me for not reading the rest of this thread, but watch these movies

<Genesis: Paradise Lost

<Is Genesis History?

And look around on this site (try to ignore the strawmen/adhominems of the guy though).

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

>>841251

I highly doubt it. ive tried prayer before. Does nothing, especially when psychology has confirmed that prayer s basically people talking to themselves.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/parenting-neuroscience-perspective/201910/religion-and-the-brain

>>841254

I dont believe in either God or Jesus. I believe Jesus was a real person but that's it. Also Logic necessarliy exists without god. Logic exists in any possible universe. Logic explains what must necessarily be.

>>841257

>psychologytoday

Gay and jewish

>Also Logic necessarliy exists without god. Logic exists in any possible universe. Logic explains what must necessarily be.

Ok fedora.

>>841258

Pointing out that logic is the exercise of the necessary isn't being a Fedora. The greatest logicians in History were Christian. In fact arguments of pure logic are used to prove the existence of God like Godel's Ontological argument.

>>841257

>Logic explains what must necessarily be

>basically people talking to themselves

Logic could be the mind simply interacting with itself, and that's it. What "necessarily" must be might only exist because that's how the human mind must be, not it doesn't have to have any correlation with actual reality. We might not even know what actual reality is. There are a lot of assumptions that go unquestioned if you accept "logic" as being anything other than a man-made invention, especially if you consider prayer to be people talking to themselves. What actually isn't the mind interacting with itself?

>>841261

Logic is us making logical associations with what is possible/necessary.

>>841263

>>841264

Logic (ˈläjik)

Noun

reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

>>841263

Logic is logical.

>>841266

That doesn't contradict

>Logic could be the mind simply interacting with itself, and that's it

Nor does your other post contradict this.

>>840993

No. And without him every rule in Christianity is completely arbitrary and nothing more than a personal preference. Including rules against murder and rules that you should always tell and believe the truth. So I can't take you seriously when you say >>840996 you won't "lie to yourself" as though lying is somehow intrinsically bad

>>841270

I could try but lets be honest, it wouldn't be effective. Deep down I would know God doesn't exist and Im sure many christians are like that too.

>>841259

You're making stereotypical fedora arguments. I'm not going to waste my time with someone who doesn't want to be helped. You wouldn't have ANYTHING without God

>>Im not the person who's seetheing over some person who believes in -1 god less than you guys entering a safe space.

>>No I didn't form myself, I was formed as the conclusion of billions of years of prior evolution. It doesn't take a genius to put that together.

Ah jeez man. You're comments come off as very childish. I hate saying things like that but they really do. (also evolution doesn't explain the origin of life, only how it gets more progressively complex. Just thought I'd point that out)

To answer your question, "Can you be a Christian without believing in God?", the answer is no.

You got your answer, now the thread can be over. No other Christian on this board is going to give you a different answer.

Christians like being aside other believers. If you want to join a church, knock yourself out but let me give you advice. Don't ever give anyone the false impression that you might believe in God. That would be dishonest.

>>841285

Well that reply was to a person who was proposing a creation theory to the universe so I’m not the childish one in that exchange. Let’s not get things twisted.

> Don't ever give anyone the false impression that you might believe in God. That would be dishonest.

I didn’t plan to. That’s why I even started this thread, to ask whether or not it’s a complete dealbreaker.

>> so I’m not the childish one in that exchange.

I read the exchange and I disagree.

To be honest I'm not sure what you're expecting us to tell you. If you want to go to a church and you plan to be upfront about being atheist, then go.

But to be perfectly honest with you, it's not worth it. Christianity is not worth following if you don't believe in God. I understand the appeal to the atheist, but that is just a fact.

Please end the thread. Everyone on the board will tell you the same thing. Christianity without a belief in God is empty. Given that's how every real Christian is going to answer, there is no need to continue the thread.

But I will pray you come to God. I know that means nothing to you.

>>841290

Thank you. Have a blessed day.

>>841273

Then don't convert to Christianity, or any religion for that matter. You've no moral obligation to do so since morality is a myth.

>>841257

You claim it would not be effective, yet this link of yours says there are many benefits to prayer such as inducing a relaxed state, increased attention, reduced anxiety and others. These are effects by definitions. I think you're contradicting yourself yet again.

The placebo and reverse placebo effect are proofs that attitude has real impacts, despite the claim that there is no such thing as a spirit.

I don't think your resistance to prayer is because it is "speaking to oneself". No man is resistant to playing solitaire as you are with prayer.

>Possible universe

Whom do you read, may I ask?

>>841316

I figure it would not be effective for someone like me who knows it's fake. And what Im talking about with possible universes is Other Worlds, which is a common concept in philosophy. For example, a 10 foot tall human may not exist in this universe, but hypothetically it could be possible in an alternative universe. But no matter what universe you're in, 2+2 will always equal 4.

>>841257

>Also Logic necessarily exists without god. Logic exists in any possible universe. Logic explains what must necessarily be

I am not sure about this. Our reality operates under logic, but can we really say it's impossible that such a reality where logic doesn't apply cannot exist?

We didn’t invent logic, we discovered it. If logic wasn’t embedded in the universe, then it wouldn’t work.

I would like to add I believe in God. I think the reason we are capable of reason is because God bestowed upon us the ability to reason. The world is operates under logic because God is a logical being.

I would watch these videos (they are very short, under 4 minutes each).

Our beliefs are trustworthy if God exists. We possess proper cognitive faculties and reasoning skills because God provided them to us. But it makes much less sense to trust our thoughts and reasoning under naturalism.

https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=WGCopwmExI4

https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=qap_FyQxILM

close the thread

>>841336

I meant proper authors, not scraps in the internet.

I know about the "possible universe" confusion, but I suppose from this post that you don't actually read but only scoop bits from the internet. I suggest reading Wittgenstein: a Religious Point of View by Norman Malcom. It's on libgen.

>>840993

Become a catholic. They don't believe in God either and have no values just like an atheist.

>>841396

Problem with American Catholics is they’re really obsessed with prolife for some reason.

>>840996

For yourself personally, why does it need to be factual/logical for you to believe in it?

>>841542

Damn, wtf Jehova's Witnesses