/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>840334

I wonder what honoring your parents even means right? Because you can live a life that brings your family honor whilest still not being friends with them or even talking to them. I'd think there has to be some room for those who have horrid parents.

>Is one free to have sex before marriage just because it’s not in these 10? Of course not. Neither did the Jews of the time take fornication lightly.

It probably wasn't intended that you would read into it that densely. Fornication outside of marriage could also be considered 'adulterous'.

>>840338

There has to be.

Personally I know I’ve been given a lot of room by God because of my father. In fact having bad parents throws off ones understanding of God. There are many scriptures where God is trying to help us understand His love by using a father as an example. When one has a bad father those scriptures become poison.

I’m just glad I have one good parent at least. My father is single-handedly responsible for the spiritual fall of all of his children, and the reason my mother found relief in an abusive cult. After many years he’s proven to be immune to the Holy Spirits attempts to change him.

There is no way God meant for me to honor my father, but my mother is a blessing. Even while in the Jehovah’s Witnesses she keeps a balanced view of things, to the best of her ability. If she had a good husband she would’ve left the cult years ago. Her I’ll never have an excuse for disrespecting.

My father on the other hand, no matter how peaceful a situation is, he’ll start a war. He can’t stand peace, and he relies on the ability to lie and bear false witness in order to survive. Without the ability to lie, his world would come crashing down. The glue keeping his social life together and his sins from surfacing for the world to see is a creation of satan, so without satan he can’t survive. He’s slandered all of his children’s reputations in order for his sins to stay hidden. God’s been telling me that this is the year my father will reap what he has sown, and He’s been telling me to not feel sorry for him, that He gave my father every bit of mercy and time for him to repent. God is personally offended by him.

I know bad parents are an epidemic to society today, so “honor thy father and mother” is annulled for many today.

>>840340

It was all read into densely. If you are not to add or subtract anything than that’s what it means.

>>840343

You can still honor your father by showing him respect and love even if he reciprocates nothing but hate in return. By doing this you show God your gratitude for the father He gave you. From this commandment all of society is built. The foundations of society rest upon the hierarchy of families and the and love and respect from that builds the love and respect for one's nation and people. Harmony in the family is harmony in society. Look at what the break down of the family has created in our current society.

>>840342

I am aware of these verses. They are not blessed in my life when it comes to my father. The more I honored him the worse my life got. Do you honestly think I wasn’t aware of these verses?

My father treats everyone that honors him with deceit and malice. He’s a masochist, and deep down inside he knows he’s sh!t. That’s why subconsciously and consciously he destroys all who honor him. He knows he is sh!t and unholy. So he pushes his children to a corner where survival means we must act dishonorably with him.

He taught us all that God’s laws can become a weapon. He threw us into spiritual darkness and only my faith survived. My siblings are in a spiritual coma. You wouldn’t show my father respect if you met him. So why should I carry the impossible burden that none of you can carry? We’ve been told to not associate with people like my father, yet your churches imprison me with scriptures misunderstood and out of context.

>>840345

He takes every form of respect as me bowing to him. He doesn’t even allow that much. He has a demon in him. There is no such thing as even saying hello to him and not being pushed by him under his heel.

Every time I’ve shown him the slightest form of respect, he tries everything he can to destroy that respect and turn it into guilt for not being his slave.

I’m telling you the man has a demon. There is no way that behavior is just a human being’s personality. Oh, if only you people can just get into business with him. He pushes you to break God’s commandments so he can control you with guilt. I’ve learned every sick trick in the book just by surviving his upbringing.

He lost all control over us when we grew up, so he resorted to sabotaging our business ties, our friendships that we salvaged after leaving the cult, our social circles with relatives. His goal is to enslave his seed. You have no idea. And there are many like him, demon possessed.

>>840345

Also, bad parents were the start of the breakdown in society. It all starts from a bad parent. Each generation gets worse from a bad parent who had a bad parent. Very few scum out their became scum from good parents.

>>840346

>He knows he is sh!t and unholy.

Is he not created in the image of God?

>>840350

It goes both ways, but it doesn't mean you stop following the commandment just because he did.

>>840355

I will follow the commandment to the best of my ability if it possible, but it’s an impossible commandment in my case till this day. The man is always up to no good. I’m not saying I’m going to treat him like garbage. But if I have no other choice I will not let this commandment stop me, he relies on this commandment in order to continue his treatment of us.

You simply haven’t had a father like mine. There is a reason this commandment upsets me and I quit on it after 30 years. There is no way to follow this commandment completely, that is why I have this opinion on it. It is unfathomable for many people to believe that Gods commandments are always possible to keep.

In my life the only three commandments that I’ve been able to keep are, No fornication or idolatry or murder. Everything else God didn’t make possible. God makes possible only the commandments that are important, our life experiences prove to us what’s important when we truly put an honest effort into keeping them. I’ve never lied to myself about my zeal in actually keeping the commandments. I always gave it 100% because I know what lying to myself feels like.

If it was possible I would’ve been able to see what must be done. There is nothing that can be done, the man is constantly testing to see what he can get away with.

If I succeed in something he will get jealous and attack. When I get on my feet regarding something, he will try to knock me down. The man is jealous of his sons. He will burn every bridge I’ve created. And he has. The man is evil, evil deserves no honor. Jesus understood this regarding parents when He was on earth. The Pharisees had weaponized the law. My father feeds out of the hand of the devil. The devil teaches him how to weaponize laws. When such weaponization reaches maturity, God nullifies the law.

You may believe otherwise. You may believe that the Ten Commandments are blessed by God in such a way that all can follow every one. That is not true.

>>840358

>In my life the only three commandments that I’ve been able to keep are, No fornication or idolatry or murder. Everything else God didn’t make possible.

Actually let me clarify this.

Here are the commandments I’ve always been able to keep.

Commandments number: 1,2,3,6,7,8,9,10

I consider it always possible to keep these. In my life. I’m able to keep half of 5. Number 4 I was never convicted of the Holy Spirit to even keep, but if possible why not, depending on what “Holy” means. Jesus seemed to have a different understanding of what holy meant for number 4. If it weren’t for my father, I’de say all 10 are possible. But that is why one has to have a relationship with God and a connection to the Holy Spirit. It comforts you about the ones your not able to keep because the sins of others have made it impossible for you.

>Thus saith the heretic

Also go reconcile with your father you idiot, what's wrong with you?

>>840358

>but it’s an impossible commandment in my case till this day

Just learn to forgive

>>840363

Lol. There is no reconciling. He always destroys it. I’m trying not to get into the details.

>>840364

I’ve forgiven him many times without even him apologizing. He always sins a greater sin. Again, I don’t want to go into the details. But the last straw showed who he is on the inside.

I’ll give you guys one of his milder sins.

When my grandfather died he left me a gold pocket watch with a heavy gold chain. My father wouldn’t shut up about it. He kept asking me to let him put it in his safe. Me being young and naive, I gave it to him for safekeeping. When I approached him about getting it back so I can overhaul it and service it he threw a fit. So I let it go. Then when I told him it needs to be serviced so I can wear it for an occasion coming up he gave it to me and I asked where the chain was. He said he had to cash it out to pay the bills. Total lie. He has many pieces of jewelry till this day that he can cash out. He had planned from the start to replace the chain with a much lighter one, that is why he didn’t sell the whole thing. He only gave the watch to me after I pressed him.

He hated my grandfather because he made it clear to my father when we were children that he will not tolerate his bullsh!t toward his grandchildren. My father hated him because he was a guard for us and a protection from him. He didn’t want an heirloom existing from my grandfather and he wanted the gold.

Now, I forgave all this, it wasn’t the straw that broke the camels back. But when that last straw hit, all of the sins that I had decided to overlook came rushing back and with a heavy hatred. After that last straw the Holy Spirit stopped helping me to forgive him. It is now impossible. The more I try to forgive him the more hate I’m filled with.

Something happened in heaven regarding my father, I can feel it. That is one of the reasons why I can’t go to any church, I can’t ignore what I’m being taught by the spirit. I will not be judged by men for the sins of another man that has made the laws void. I will not take the dishonor that Christians would give me for not honoring an evil man. My father has made it very impossible for me to find a place among Christians, and so has your guys’ shallow understanding of the laws. I don’t say that with any reproach against the two of you.

>>840342

Yes, emphasis on "in [the] Lord" and not any worldliness perpetuating schmuck.

>6:4

And [ye] fathers, provoke not your children to anger, but bring them up in Lord's discipline and admonition.

>Matt. 19:29

And everyone who left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or woman or children or fields for my name, shall receive a hundredfold and shall inherit age-perduring life.

See also Matt. 10:34-39

>>840378

Thank you. These were some of the scriptures the Holy Spirit brought to my attention back when I was confused about the whole thing. God bless you for bringing them into this discussion.

>>840382

Happy to help.

>>840365

Forgiving sin is not acting as if a particular action never happened, but recognizing and treating the sickness of the spirit in others with genuine love.

To the best of our extent, of course. Only the Lord is the true medic of souls.

>>840419

It’s this kind of mentality that he thrives off of. You can’t forgive and not forget the sins. This sort of forgiveness accomplished nothing, and is not really forgiveness. He has to be treated as a stranger.

>>840378

So do you agree with OP that the ten commandments are "incomplete or tampered with", and do you agree with him that we should dishonor our parents by talking bad about them online?

Do you agree with OP that "there is nothing there to honor" thereby meaning God telling us to honor our father and mother is wrong? Do you agree with Scripture on the point of the ten commandments or do you agree with OP who says the commandments of God (being repeated again in Ephesians 6:2-3) are wrong? Which one is it? Do you side with the person who denies God in this thread, namely, OP?

I'd much sooner agree with people like >>840338

>>840345

>>840363

in this case than I would join in with a person who denies God and puts down Scripture whenever the same doesn't suit his purposes.

>>840428

That’s interesting that you would target that anon and not me. He pointed out something very important. That emphasis on “the lord” is everything. You’re showing some really stiff and clearly protruding horns.

You should thank that anon for teaching you something. He never said he agreed with me over everything I said. No one here does. But we all find small moments where we agree with each other. Every now and then. Why are you so hostile about it?

>>840428

>So do you agree with OP that the ten commandments are "incomplete or tampered with", and do you agree with him that we should dishonor our parents by talking bad about them online?

I’m merely expressing the the reasons why I don’t like my father. Many fathers are like mine. If all sons kept their mouths shut no one would be able to help each other. It’s my father that brings dishonor against himself. Maybe you should think before you defend a man who would beat his wife during all of her pregnancies and was a roaming lion in his own house. A man that only thought twice about being violent only when his children grew up and had the ability to stand up for themselves. In any case I can’t dishonor someone who’s name I haven’t even dropped on this board. No one knows who I’m talking about.

>Do you agree with OP that "there is nothing there to honor" thereby meaning God telling us to honor our father and mother is wrong? Do you agree with Scripture on the point of the ten commandments or do you agree with OP who says the commandments of God (being repeated again in Ephesians 6:2-3) are wrong? Which one is it? Do you side with the person who denies God in this thread, namely, OP?

You hear many things that aren’t there. When have I ever denied God. Without the existence of God I wouldn’t even bother to be here. Without God I’de have nothing to talk about. I have never denied God in a single post. I simply doubt men and believe they changed words around and tampered with much of the Bible’s focal points. Adultery is extramarital sex, not premarital sex. You seem to be denying that the Bible’s infallible yourself, since you place words in scripture that aren’t there and ignore some that are.

>in this case than I would join in with a person who denies God and puts down Scripture whenever the same doesn't suit his purposes.

You just did this yourself by ignoring that anons “emphasis”.

Your hate for me is blinding you from learning new things. You made a decision about me a while back, to not ever agree with me or anyone that does. Even when no one is ever 100% wrong and no one is ever 100% right. You have much to figure out about yourself.

>>840428

>It doesn't matter how much of an irreverent miscreant who would bury the gospel I am, y-you have to revere what I do and tell you because y-you're a Kurrishtan!

Not trying to establish some dogma, but my rationalization for things would be the following: That epistle was primarily directed toward a church community and to people who would heed its instructions to begin with, some who even held servants, and not to those who don't. One should again consider what is written in Matt. 10:34-39, Luk. 12:49-53, and Luk. 14:26. The considerations for things varied from the apostolic age to the post-Nicene period to the post-feudal age. Many look at it backwards because they see the socio-familial hiearchy implied by the old covenant laws as now being in more dire need than ever for whatever reason. But try to imagine what the implications of doing such in the 1st century A.D. would be, where pleasing your parents could mean partaking in all the worldly intrigues, nepotism, religious observances, devotion, and customs that could come into conflict with the exhortations of the gospel. Maybe to the Jews in communities who followed the old covenant dutifully, it might have been easier, but what to say of those in communities who don't do such, or communities that could be considered as having fallen astray from the ideal precepts?

Consider also how even James' instructions to abstain from things like blood seem to have been with time pushed to the side by clerical ruling, because they were viewed as being more pertinent for the circumstance of the earliest followers than later.

Lastly, discussing one's personal troubles anonymously online is probably no worse than talking to a professional shrink about them and probably better than always keeping them bottled in.

>>840464

I'm seeing a non-answer to any of my questions. Maybe I should have started simply by asking if you agree with the OP that the ten commandments are wrong.

It's just strange how you ignore all of the things pointed out, apparently in agreement that what God commanded to do can so easily be said to be wrong so many times outrightly, yet with no apparent notice of the contradiction. He flat out said in the OP that the commandments were wrong, friend. Are you as well pitting yourself against God here?

If so there's not much to discuss or talk about until getting past that. You can't just openly pit yourself against God and his word then expect for discussions about Scripture to make sense.

>But try to imagine what the implications of doing such in the 1st century A.D. would be

His word never changes. He even repeats the exhortation in Ephesians for you in case it wasn't clear, that the moral law remains a perpetual truth. One honors their father and mother by living righteously and restoring a good name to what might not already be one, not by talking bad about them online, which no one should ever be in the place to do. Why do I know that: Because God commanded it. Also the part about obeying the parents is commanded to children, that's why I specified Ephesians 6:2-3 in my second post. That is only for when they are an authority if your life, however honoring them never ends. Even if they were the worst, then you can do them the honor of not bringing it up.

As it says in Proverbs 20:20 - Whoso curseth his father or his mother, his lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness.

>>840483

>He flat out said in the OP that the commandments were wrong, friend. Are you as well pitting yourself against God here?

I specified which commandment I suspect of tampering and which one I disagreed with in regards to today’s condition of parents. These were the only two I have issues with. Number 7 because I know it should be “fornication” and not “adultery”. Number 5 because it’s not blessed in my life personally and void for many people, I didn’t say number 5 is wrong. The rest of the commandments I suspect of no tampering and never doubted. I never said the all the commandments are wrong. The words “the commandments are wrong” we’re never uttered by me. I simply said they have been tampered with because of number 7, and incomplete because of number 5.

You are losing your calm in this argument and once again hearing things that haven’t been said, as well as not hearing the arguments that would’ve helped you understand what I’ve been saying. You are trying to corner people with tactics and the spirit of God is not flowing through you at the moment. I’ll try to leave the rest of this argument between you and that anon.

>>840483

>One honors their father and mother by living righteously and restoring a good name to what might not already be one, not by talking bad about them online, which no one should ever be in the place to do. Why do I know that: Because God commanded it. Also the part about obeying the parents is commanded to children, that's why I specified Ephesians 6:2-3 in my second post. That is only for when they are an authority if your life, however honoring them never ends. Even if they were the worst, then you can do them the honor of not bringing it up.

My father has slandered my name here and there in order to cover his own faults, he does this to his children till this day. I am met with bitterness among his friends, the last few times I saw them. I am spoken to with a tone by people that are close to him. He has destroyed his son’s honor and for me to fix it I am left with no other choice but to dishonor him if ever anyone pushes me to explain why my father slanders my name. He’s has to speak I’ll of me because he’s placed himself between a rock and a hard place. When he had authority over me he would council me to lie and trick people. He would tell me to do things that he had planned out to help him to slander my name and make me look bad. He would put me in humiliations path just to see if something works out or not. All this so I would have no social life and no friends of my own. Yes, my own father. That scum. You would’ve raised hands against a father like this if you had one.

It’s impossible for me to honor him, when people compliment him on his children, he would take it out on us because he saw it as us destroying the lies he’s said about us. He is a demon. Push me and I’ll dishonor him more.

>>840486

Anon, you're not really hurting me (not that I want you to) or anyone else by doing this. I just can't agree with saying God's commandment is wrong. It doesn't matter who or what is saying it or what reason they try to give. Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is disagree with them because what they are thinking or doing is wicked and wrong, which in the end as you know is merely self destructive. This happens quite regularly in this current world. I don't know you, but it's the snare of the devil that brings all men into that state.

>>840487

These beliefs of mine are what got me back on my feet and loving God again. This mentality of not taking scriptures at surface value is what saved me. You are applying a superstition to the Bible and blinding yourself to how the Bible should be read and applied.

I’ve met many like you who cast stones at people that survived an unjust stoning and only because you feel compelled to through superstitions.

Was I wrong about commandment number 7 really meaning “fornication”? Since adultery falls under fornication, as well as homosexuality and all other sexual sins. A homo can read number 7 and assume he can be gay and married and it’s ok, we use the rest of the Bible to clear that up. Same with commandment number 5, we use the rest of the Bible to clear it up of blind trust in surface understanding that leads to all sorts of issues and unblessed outcomes.

Christ said he came to not abolish the law but to complete it. Polygamy was not adultery in Moses’ time. After Christ came he completed that law by stating that whoever has more than one wife is a fornicator. Christ changed the understanding of the sabbath also. Christ changed laws that were mutilated by the time he arrived. You are ignoring all of this. I am not hurting myself either by talking about all this. Things like this need to be discussed. I am not afraid of God punishing me for it because He has commissioned it.

>>840489

>A homo can read number 7 and assume he can be gay and married and it’s ok,

Not the best analogy, I know. How about.

“A person can sleep around before marriage and it’s ok”.

>>840334

>original John is missing the whore forgiveness part

>original Mark is missing the resurrection (which imo says more about Mark and the other two synoptics that derive from it than it does about Jesus' actual divinity. I believe Jesus is God)

>original Genesis has more redpilled versions of verses that imply serpent seed

Over time, there have been a ton of changes and winnie the poohery done to the Bible. The redpilled books were once more obviously redpilled and the bluepilled ones more obviously bluepilled and gnostic-like. It's easier to slip in new scripture than discard already widely valued scripture, hence the synoptics getting in so easily yet the jews' attempts to discard the deuterocanon fruitless in Cathodoxy. The ten commandments were either more redpilled in their original versions or there were less than 10 and new ones were slipped in (which is very easy to do). In fact that might be why Jesus greatly simplified the law to loving God and your neighbor. Those might actually have been the only two original commandments and for all we know slipping in the love your neighbor part might be a subversion that happened within the last 2000 years. Jesus might just want you to love God and figure out what that entails in the other parts of your life.

>>840492

While I don’t disagree with you or your suspicions, one thing is certain. One absolutely needs the Holy Spirits guidance through it all.

Judging by God’s heavenly numbers and how man has 10 fingers and toes I can believe a theory in which it was really 7 or 10 commandments. Numbers 1&2 seem to be the same commandment. Numbers 8 & 9 seem to be the same commandment. If these where merged you would have 8. I feel like if it was less than 10 it would have to be 7. But these are topics only a mature Christian can discuss, or ponder on, one that would never leave God and already has the Holy Spirit as their guide.

When everything is said and done the whole Bible, when read correctly and with wisdom from the Holy Spirit, can uncover the lies and manipulations. No lie is perfect and the Bible’s too big to pull off a perfect deletion or lie. The churches don’t allow a Christian to think freely on the idea, under the superstition that it’s the first step to creating an excuse to be a heathen.

>>840495

>The churches don’t allow a Christian to think freely on the idea, under the superstition that it’s the first step to creating an excuse to be a heathen.

This. They let their fear blind them and by extension blind the masses they teach.

>>840483

The second post in this thread is also mine.

What you allege is mostly a straw man tbh. As Ex brother is saying, scripture shouldn't be interpreted so superficially and shallowly, but should be done also taking other parts of scripture into account. When the directive was given to obey one's parents 'in the Lord', the ten commandments were simply what it took encouragement from. The instruction is less about blindly and unquestioningly following orders like a mindless drone, but rather about hearkening to the guidance of one's parents who are also in the faith, just like the ensuing directives were directed toward other kinds of people in the faith, such as those in the early church who were servants along with their masters.

>>840495

>Numbers 8 & 9 seem to be the same commandment.

My mistake, I meant numbers 8 and 10.

>>840334

>Adultery is extramarital sexual relationship

Wrong. Extramarital sexual relationships are just one form of adultery, the latter means 'altering' in the broarder sense. For example, number 7 says 'you shall not pervert', twist, or change what is holy. Matrimony and sexual purity is just one aspect of it.

>>840420

Shifting the blame is still wrong even when it is true, remember how Adam did that. Perhaps you are right and my forgiveness does nothing and remembering the sins of others does much, but the latter can only preserve sin and its effects.

>>840519

>Wrong. Extramarital sexual relationships are just one form of adultery,

No you have it shifted. Adultery is just one form of fornication. The definition to adultery does not agree with your statement.

>>840520

Adam’s shifted the blame, yes. That’s because he was to blame for his actions. Eve was to be blamed for her’s.

My fathers actions are his blame. No one can blame me for giving up on him. This concept of blame the victim for learning that forgiveness is a fuel for certain people is evil. Not everything can be forgiven. And I’ve forgiven this man several times, so much so that I’ve learned the Bible’s view of forgiveness is also being shallowly interpreted by people.

Some things leave scars and release pain over a long period of time, one can’t control that about their scars. If my father wouldn’t have chosen to be evil this would not be a problem.

You are operating under the lie that all things should be forgiven. That itself is an unblessed mentality and is not supported by the Bible in its entirety, only in scriptures taken out of context. My conscience is clear about my view of my father. And not just him. If I had not followed the doctrine of blindly forgiving people I would’ve made it impossible for my old church members to do so much damage to my reputation. Once someone sins in a matter that shows they are evil then forgiveness is only fuel to their sins.

If you read the Bible in its entirety you will see that we are to forgive imperfections and minor sins others do to us, not wickedness. Not their scheming and planning to do us harm. Wicked people will always harm you when you turn your back. They will always stab you with the next sin.

You are forgetting that one has to treat his own self with respect. You have to view yourself with love too and not treat yourself like a rag doll who can always take another hit. You are a person too. Just like you wouldn’t open others to danger and sin against them, you shouldn’t treat yourself like your emotions and life can be sacrificed just to indulge an abusive person with his next thrill, and sin against yourself. You wouldn’t sin against other why would you sin against yourself? By forgiving every sort of sin done to you, you are also gravely sinning against yourself. You are hurting yourself.

There is no such thing in the Bible as forgiving everyone and everything. That is a mentality birthed by rapist priests in order to control everyone and be able to heap sin upon sin. It also keeps many churches together where members are constantly damaging each others lives. That mentality of forgiveness is one Jesus hates and never meant to be His message to people. Again, Christ said a marriage is annulled through fornication. If the way you talk about forgiveness was the way Christ saw it, He would never have said that. He would’ve said, “forgive your cheating spouse, he/she is imperfect just like you”. But, instead, He said, “your free to leave them”. Actions have consequences, not everything can be forgiven. Forgiving everything is demoralizing and turns one into something comparable to a beaten raped whore on the streets.

Again, I have never understood the separation between forgiving and forgetting. They go hand in hand. If you forgive someone then you forget their sin, if you can’t forget their sin you haven’t really forgiven them.

For lighter sins this may be somewhat possible but still not fully because you know the persons weakness now and you never forget it so you don’t give them another chance to sin again, but for serious sins it’s completely impossible.

>>840520

>but the latter can only preserve sin and its effects.

The sin is preserved in people’s heart’s that decided to believe my father. It will always be preserved as long as my reputation is dead. In order to destroy the effects my father has to make a public announcement at his church and to his friends that he’s a liar and list his lies. Those elders too. Even if I forgive him I will still feel the effects of those lies. The damage is forever. As well as the lies of my former elders. They will never take the steps required to show they are repentant. If they did they would lose their titles and become the ones with unfixable reputations. The damages are set into eternity. Until God decided to make His move.

No matter how well I forgive, I will take the hit every time I even say hello to everyone from my past. This sin of his and my former church members have grown deep roots and are independent of my own decisions. I will suffer the consequences no matter what I do. There will always be a reminder, no matter what I do. It will always be preserved. All that weight on my shoulders and I’m the one that has to forgive or suffer the wrath? Of course not. God isn’t cruel. He knows much more of the details than I do. If he can’t forgive these people then He’s not gonna demand I do. That is why I know something has been decided regarding my father and these people, forgiveness is no longer an option. The last of that ability has been taken from me.