/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>838863

Except that we don't follow rituals, we partake and commune in them as we do with anything else. To be saved is to learn to love, by communicating with Christ we learn to do so.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

>>838865

That doesn't negate what I've said in any way. Jesus said the two commandments were to love God and love your neighbor. if you love your neighbor you're doing Jesus will, whether you know it or not.

>>838868

>You're not saved by being nice.

>1 Timothy 5:18, NIV: . . . 'The worker deserves his wages.'

If you've done the will of God then you have earned the wages that God pays. To say that one isn't entitled to those wages because they didn't go through a ritual your church prescribes is just to speak evil.

Jesus said that those who show you brotherhood and kindness are your neighbor and worthy of love. Is that a commandment that God gave us which he doesn't follow himself? If so you're saying that God is a hypocrite.

>>838869

It is explicitly negating what you're saying.

If you could perfectly obey the two greatest commandments you could go to heaven without salvation through Jesus, but you can't so you need a savior.

I'll elaborate

>>838863

>The doctrine that you have to follow a set of rituals to be saved is just evil that church leaders have injected into Christianity to acquire power for themselves. Both the Catholics and protestants (I don't know the EO position on this) are guilty of this

Google "sola fide"

>If a heathen shows kindness or brotherhood to Christians, he'll be repaid for his kindness whether he accepted Jesus as his savior or not.

Eisegesis

This parable is not about soteriology

>The way to be saved is not through performing the correct set of rituals, but by showing love and kindness to others

This is works salvation, just vaguer

The way to be saved is an orthodox confession (which will necessarily entail good works)

Are you a swedenborgian or something?

Is it me or this places becoming more like /x/ by the minute? What is with the influx of schizos and would be David Koresh types flooding the board?

>>838871

. You think Salvation is an intellectual affair, a matter of believing the right doctrines and performing the right rituals. These are gross errors that you've learned from an evil and apostate church. You're trying to complicate a very simple issue.

You are accusing God of evil. In your view, and in Catholic theology (protestant too), God repays evil for good. The only way God offers salvation, in your view, is if the church intercedes for the person because the person becomes intellectually enslaved to the church. That arrogance and pride by the church is a great evil and it's committed because the church is far from God and trying to ration salvation in a way to increase the power of the church.

If a non-believer shows love and compassion to a believer then that non-believer will be rewarded by God. That's the bottom line. If it weren't for the evils of the church no one would even want to argue against this. you would be overjoyed that God loves you so much that he will even provide his blessings to those that help you. But instead you're so warped by the church that someone could literally save your life and you'd turn around and tell them they'll burn in hell for eternity if they don't complete a ritual prescribed by your church.

>>838863

Was thinking about this the other day.

The core Christianity is literally

Love and Honor God.

Treat others as you would want to be treated.

I see what you mean with the Samaritan. He did not accept Jesus, rather he showed mercy and became Christ-like. And that is what wins the favour of God.

But I'd argue there are multiple ways to salvation.

What do you say about faith-based salvation? The penitent thief who arguably did not live a Christ-like life, simply called out to Jesus to remember him. And Jesus promised him paradise.

>>838874

>You think Salvation is an intellectual affair, a matter of believing the right doctrines and performing the right rituals.

Lol

>>838875

>I see what you mean with the Samaritan.

The Samaritan was a character from a parable and wasn't someone who personally met Jesus to even do that.

Nor do you guys understand the difference between Jesus' earthly ministry and his Ascension - the very Gospel you want to quote the parable of Good Samaritan from (Luke) is just Part 1. Luke also wrote the book of Acts to follow it and show what Jesus meant for his movement on earth. You don't have to "guess". It's spelled out for you. All you have to do is drop your damned pride. Which, of course, you'll never do.

>>838875

> But I'd argue there are multiple ways to salvation.

I agree. You can be saved vicariously or you can be saved because you consciously chose salvation.

>>838878

When you're saying "vicariously" who is the person through whom these infidels are being saved in your view?

Is this like how Mormons baptise each other vicariously for the dead?

This is just a repeat of the original sin. That is, that simply "knowing" good and evil is apparently sufficient for salvation. That being "like gods" is good enough, whilst cutting oneself off from the only God.

"DEERRPP. You should just follow the way of love, guyz! We can do that. Derpity derp. You don't need to confess Christ for that. Amirite?"

"Oh, and God totally told me to do this."

You wish to follow the way of love, yet cut yourself off from the very source of love that even makes love and life possible. Also, your first "act of love" is to castigate billions of Christians over 2000 years as idiots and how you, with your speshul magical gifts of turbo God voice dispensing revelation, have the real truth from on high to dispense upon us peons. Real "loving", that is. It's nothing but the most base form of hatred. Like I said, this is David Koresh tier.

>>838863

If Christ is not needed for salvation, then there was no point in Him even coming to this plane of existence and He died in vain.

>>838863

> The doctrine that you have to follow a set of rituals to be saved is just evil that church leaders have injected into Christianity to acquire power for themselves.

Yes this is true. All that one needs to do is declare Jesus as Lord in their hearts. No man stands between Jesus and the individual. As for the rest of what you said, I don’t necessarily disagree with it because I don’t know the details of how Gods mercies work or how he judges peoples hearts, but with all the lies about him today and all the sins of so called “Christians”, it wouldn’t surprise me that God will show mercy to many that vicariously follow His Commandments to the best of their ability. I can’t say what God is willing to do. And I’m sure many of us can benefit from God showing good members of our families vicarious salvation, since many of our families were stumbled by the sins of Christianity, and have witnessed the evils of churches and religion.

However in my case, I felt the need to declare it through prayer and to my family. I do not feel the need to get re-baptized. I feel like my first baptism is valid.

In the end I’m sure God wouldn’t let anyone with a good heart be destroyed just because they don’t go to a church or are suspicious of the Bible. I think he will show mercy in many places.

>>838872

This is 8kun, not exactly a theologian's watering hole. But don't think of it in a bad way. This place allows them to correct their misguided beliefs.

You can only be saved through the merits of Christ on the cross

>>838879

>When you're saying "vicariously" who is the person through whom these infidels are being saved in your view?

Jesus really. But the receive the grace of God because they've shown grace to the people of God.

>Is this like how Mormons baptise each other vicariously for the dead?

No, that's just a ritual the mormons practice.

>>838882

>If Christ is not needed for salvation

I never said that. I said people can be saved vicariously by practicing kindness and charity to those that are saved. whether the salvation is direct or vicarious is still depends upon the salvation of Jesus and his death on the cross.

>>838880

I hope you don't think you're a Christian or that you're saved because you aren't. Just as people can be saved for acting in a Godly manner towards God's people you can also be damned for treating God's people the way you are treating them now. There's no love in you just anger and pride. repent.

>>838897

So you're using vicarious just to mean imputational atonement that all Christianity affirms, then you're just adding a soft universalism. Calling this heresy of yours vicarious salvation isn't descriptive.

>>838909

your mind is your biggest enemy because you've diligently stuffed it full of garbage. You keep resorting to an intellectual triangulation to transform unfamiliar ideas into theories you already hold. You're just judging them by their relation to errors you've already internalized and then substituting theories with no relation but which allows you to come to a conclusion with no real consideration. You've got a mapped out intellectual landscape that doesn't reflect reality but which you still use as your guide anyway.

Your mind won't save you. Your theories won't save you and without love you can never understand salvation no matter how much complexity you bake into your worldview.

It's impossible to even have a rational discussion with you because you refuse to take what I say at face value. Instead, you translate my words into dogma you're familiar with and try to force me to argue everything under the sun aside from what I'm actually saying. It makes this discussion as tedious as it is pointless.

>>838919

This is a very long winded way to get out of actually engaging in theological debate

>>838925

When even debate? You baptists will just appeal to your own personal incredulity when faced with a logical deduction, and then act like you won because you don't understand the argument. I disagree with op but you're just as much a stupid piece of s-, a pigeon s-ting on a chess board.

>>838928

Apparently the board filter turned pigeon purple and shat all over my post just like you baptists do against reason and intellect. How fitting.

>>838928

Can you point me to a single example on this board of someone with a baptist flag doing this?

>>838932

There was another thread where I pointed out transgressing the law was transgressing scripture since scripture contains the law, so the baptist responded by claiming I was saying scripture and law are the same thing. You idiots can only think in semantics. Logic is completely foreign to you.

>>838933

Link it

>>838925

I have no patience for theological debate. There's nothing more useless than endlessly rehashing the mistakes of others. Theological debate is the religious version of the political isms- capitalism, socialism, communism, fascism, etc. Those terms are all completely meaningless and their true purpose is to keep minds trapped in an ideological maze so that they never have a single valid thought politically, they just keep endlessly analyzing and parroting obsolete dogma.

>>838958

Like I said, you're full of crap with the "love" spiel. Even on just a matter of theology, you fall back on hating thousands of saints, billions of Christians, and thousands of years of history. All because "God told me to, yo".

>>838958

👋

Theological debate was the only way the Church even managed to express "love" on a large level, across multiple regions - through the Ecumenical Councils themselves. This kept the church in tact and in a spirit of camaraderie. They had theology, they had the scriptures, and they had the Lordship of Christ all in common.

If anything, it was their worst opponents (like Muslims, Gnostics, and Arians) who denied Christ as necessary and hated discussing theology or scripture. I can't say you're in good company.

>>838919

>>838958

I have been trying to put this into words for such a long time. You are really talented in translating your understanding into words. I’ve been trying to express these exact words but never able to put them so simply and beautifully. Thank you sir. I can’t tell you how useful these words are to me. God bless you again.

>>838965

>This kept the church in tact and in a spirit of camaraderie.

No it didn't. theological debate has divided the church into 20k factions and counting. All with their own little spin on the bible which they insist is essential for salvation. Look at you- you're gung ho for debating theology but you could care less about love or kindness. you're not even willing to admit that person that shows kindness to the children of God has any reason to expect God to show them kindness in return. You act like cain. You're just a giant ball of hostility and you never consider that the character you are displaying disqualifies you as a valid messenger of truth.

>>838961

> you fall back on hating thousands of saints, billions of Christians, and thousands of years of history.

bearing false witness is a sin you know.

I don’t know why you guys are so mad at OP. He told us good news today. He himself said he doesn’t know the ins and outs of salvation without accepting Jesus as your savior. But he also didn’t say Jesus is not the way. Keeping the commandments of God is how we show we love Him, and his commandments are in line with logic and love. It wouldn’t surprise me that some may naturally choose to live by logic and love and accidentally fall into Gods good graces, then have mercy for not knowing Jesus for honest reasons.

Granted it’s a little risky to say and might not be the case with a majority of people, I think it’s happy news that God has such a mercy in store for some. We can all benefit from such a mercy from God if we have family members and friends who can’t accept Jesus because of the sins of Christians and the churches. Part of me always believed what OP is saying is true for some people. With all the lies about Christ spread all over the world it wouldn’t surprise me that God would show mercy to those who just don’t know Christ or doubt Him from all the lies they’ve heard and crimes they’ve seen.

This is great news. It wouldn’t be the first thing I preach, personally, but it rings true in some circumstances.

>>838875

>I see what you mean with the Samaritan. He did not accept Jesus, rather he showed mercy and became Christ-like. And that is what wins the favour of God.

>Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

So what you're saying is, you have had some grand revelation that goes against what Jesus' disciples and their disciples taught and what has been practiced for nearly thousands of years, yet you know better than them?

I feel like this thread would’ve gone in a better direction if it was titled, “Many who haven’t accepted Jesus will be saved”.

I hope I’m not re-igniting a smoldering fire, but Op had some good points, and the people against him did as well. I think it just got off to a bad start. Probably because of the title, which I can’t agree with. Dare I ask if anyone who can’t sleep today wants to continue this conversation, but this time with this new statement? Because I wouldn’t risk telling people they don’t need to accept Jesus, that feels very wrong to me, yes even me. But Op showed enough proof that many will be shown mercy and be saved for whatever reason Jesus decides they are righteous.

But we all need to keep in mind, Jesus taught the apostles. The apostles were not perfect followers of Jesus. Jesus’ words are higher than the apostles teachings and traditions. The apostles fumbled many things because of their imperfections, this is evident, especially Paul. We follow Jesus, not the apostles. All who want to have this conversation should only speak about Christ’s teachings. Since we follow Him, not men. Not even if they are the apostles. That mentality of assuming the apostles did all things right will lead us nowhere.

>>838993

>So what you're saying is, you have had some grand revelation that goes against what Jesus' disciples and their disciples taught and what has been practiced for nearly thousands of years,

No. What I'm saying is I've had some grand revelation that erases one of the many heresies of your apostate church and returns to the gospel that was preached by Jesus and his disciples.

The churches have created rules and conditions for salvation only so they can guard the door to heaven and extract an entrance fee from anyone that wants to enter. The really unfortunate thing is that once they've extracted the fee, they bar the door.

>>838863

Jesus JUDGES EVERYONE, ALL OF HUMANITY.

AND NOT JUST CHRISTIANS

THIS IS CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY WHAT IS STATED IN THE WORD OF GOD

THOSE WHO LIVE BY WORKS ARE JUDGED BY WORKS AND HAVE TO GO THROUGH Jesus AS THE FINAL JUDGE.

REGENERATE CHRISTIANS HAVE ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

BUT, APOSTATES OF THE GOSPEL ARE CLEARLY DAMNED FOR REJECTING CHRIST

>>839110

Read:

https://www.gotquestions.org/final-judgment.html

>>839110

true. I didn't say anything that conflicts with what you just said.

But look at Matthew 25:34. There are crowds of people grouped together with the sheep that don't know why they are granted eternal life. They are confused as to why they've been granted eternal life. They didn't realize they did anything to be saved but Jesus states clearly that they are saved because of acts of kindness that they showed the children of God. Now I say the same thing and Christians have drifted so far from Christianity that I'm accused of heresy. Out of all the alleged Christians here only one was able to hear what I said and see the truth of it.

>>839117

I would just go by the Final Judgment. Since only God knows within that specific context. And God gave specific instructions about the judgement/being written in the Book of Life. Salvation/process of salvation is only something known by God, not by man. But, Christians get the full knowing, assurance and revelation of salvation

Why do unbelievers keep trolling this boars?

>>839136

Do you really want an answer? If so why do you sage? Because honestly, I can answer why I do it but I can only speak for myself. If you really care we can have a discussion about it. But if I’m to talk about why I do it then we should have this discussion in a separate thread. I will make one for anyone who wants to discuss it.

>>839141

Have you ever been diagnosed with autism?

>>839143

No. Let’s take this to the Coloseum.

>>839148

Because I probably don’t. I just know that when it’s used it doesn’t bump up the thread. Care to enlighten me? It’ll help many anons here.

>>839148

Oh. My mistake.

>>839120

true.