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File: 54a6e3ccdd03539⋯.png (45.06 KB, 765x659, 765:659, _Faith_Alone_Verses.png)

3269f3  No.834491[Last 50 Posts]

Typed this up on Excel to have it all in one picture after going through the NT and trying to find verses that support sola fide. I was also the one that did >>833397 , I like Excel.

I rated each verse on how clear it seems, Vey Clear being it obviously is teaching salvation by faith alone and you need to be a fool to think otherwise. And Supporting as supporting verses that do seem to be saying it's by faith alone, but not very clear and my need explanation.

If you do believe sola fide tell me what other verses I should add to the list.

If you don't believe sola fide, then say why that verse is not teaching that. Don't just spout off other verses like James 2 because otherwise this thread will just be a dung flinging contest like wha always happens. If sola fide isn't true then you should be able to explain the verses, and not just the 'Supporting' ones.

It sometimes is autistic when trying to make a new thread, sorry if I end up making multiple.

____________________________
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3269f3  No.834494

>It sometimes is autistic when trying to make a new thread, sorry if I end up making multiple.

Of course it did

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c2c8b0  No.834496

>>834491

>Don't just spout off other verses like James 2 because otherwise this thread will just be a dung flinging contest like wha always happens.

Right back to you, sir. That's kind of a disrespectful dismissal of holy scripture too. People are simply trying to take James seriously. Don't blame them for respecting the Apostle.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by [faith only] ." - James 2:24

Funny, it's almost as if God knew that these kind of conversations would pop up and he provided the most plainly stated passage to destroy this doctrine so that even children could understand it. He couldn't be more clear.

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31d06b  No.834498

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31d06b  No.834499

Balance of both. Is required.

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5c7dd6  No.834500

File: 64ccad04230b39a⋯.jpg (64.9 KB, 720x708, 60:59, Salvation_not_by_Works.jpg)

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5c7dd6  No.834501

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>834496

If you think this is a contradiction with sola fide you don't know what sola fide means. That's why "James 2" isn't a rebuttal without explanation.

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a7c778  No.834504

these threads seem a little… pointed

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0455df  No.834505

https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.verses/ID/2381/Good-Works-Necessity-of-verses.htm

There seem to be more verses that indicate you have to do works. Ephesians 2:8-9, as you list, is immediately proceeded by a verse that says we are prepared to do works through faith.

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d0c46e  No.834506

The Baptists are lost and ignore that Christ said "By their works you shall know them".

it's not because of works you go to heaven, but of faith is true enough, but if you have faith and follow the Lord, you will do good works.

These Baptist have no faith in our Lord, will not follow him, and think that the path to heaven is so broad that they can fool themselves into denying the virtue of Christian charity.

Pray for them. You can't convince them to let go of their love of sin and refusal to live as the Lord taught us. Prayer, where we ask for the Holy Ghost to convert them, is their only hope.

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5c7dd6  No.834507

File: 298a9dacdcc12e8⋯.jpg (24.49 KB, 567x565, 567:565, 70e.jpg)

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0455df  No.834508

>>834506

It truly is unfortunate. Even if they were totally right somehow, there’s nothing wrong with doing good works anyway. Surely they at least know the verses that say “according to your works” and “according to your deeds” and so on. So even if everyone who believes is saved regardless of their works, it’s clear that doing more will land you a better spot in heaven. Because Jesus spoke of the “least” and the “greatest” in heaven. But it doesn’t get any more clear than 1 Cor. 6:

> Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

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9ac207  No.834509

File: d966c8035ac6ce3⋯.png (1.08 MB, 600x818, 300:409, korean_jesus_edited.png)

No denomination says works do the actual saving though. God saves us and then its time for us to do the works He laid out for us.

>Don't just spout off other verses like James 2

No - "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

We cant be biased and simply take the verses we are interested in to make our point, we need the entire bible in context.

Or we'd be like the mormons that take a silly verse out of context and say that therefore we must baptize the dead.

Lets see this Jesus parable about the day the Lord comes, this follows the thief in the night story so its about our death and judgement:

>“Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their portion at the proper time? 43Blessed is that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 44Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

>45But suppose that servant says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and he begins to beat the menservants and maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

>47That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded.

4 different cases differing on whether we did the works required of us or not.

So its better to 'fear and tremble' lest we get split in two and thrown into hell or get a sound beating. The beating cases are about purgatory btw.

>>834501

Why does he say its the Christian view? its the view of some Christians.

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d0c46e  No.834510

>>834507

There are already threads on this.

When the full scripture is pointed out, it is ignored. When pressed, a new thread pops up. It's like arguing with jews.

This is not arguing in good faith in search for the truth or you'd accept that Christ said "By their fruits you shall know them". You couldn't even SEE that and claim that my post had no argument at all.

That's just sadly delusional.

The only explanation is cognitive bias caused by the resentment of the Lord's instruction to Christian charity.

Christ said feed the poor, give water to the thirsty. These are good works. If you believe Christ, you do as he says.

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d0c46e  No.834511

Seriously, Baptists are lost

Pray for them. You cannot reason with them because they're not being honest in why they want to deny Christian charity.

Even Christ couldn't convert all the jews. All you can do is pray that one day their souls will come to God and that they will learn to obey Our Lord.

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3269f3  No.834512

File: 6d721d6d5a440c9⋯.jpg (279.87 KB, 786x3099, 262:1033, 24C3F743_04E7_47BF_87A3_26….jpg)

>>834496

Fine i'll answer your out of context "muh James 2", and usually people alsoo bring up verse 14

The most commonly taken out of context scripture people use to try to prove you need to do works in order to be saved are “…though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” (Jam 2:14). The reason why this is not teaching that is one, don’t base doctrine off of questions, even Mormons have a verse on getting baptized for dead people “…baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Cor 15:29). Two, it’s not talking about salvation, it’s talking about saving someone from dying, the next few verses talk about not giving people food. Not every time the Bible uses the word “save” is about salvation, such as when Peter said “Lord, save me.” (Mat 14:30) when he was drowning, he was asking Jesus to save him from drowning, not save him from his sins.

Related to that is people also use “Was not Abraham our father justified by works… by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (Jam 2:21/24), and say that how it says that we are justified by works and not faith only. But, like before, just as “saved” isn’t always about salvation, neither is the word “justified”. It says Abraham was justified by works, but he was justified to man, not God. As Romans 4:2 says “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”, so he was justified in the eyes of men by his works, but not to God, because only God can see your faith, man can only hear your words and see your works, they can’t see your heart as God does. So, Abraham being willing to sacrifice his son proved to men that he truly believed in God.

http://www.Jesusisprecious.org/fundamentals/faith_without_works_is_still_faith.htm

https://invidio.us/0JvV_ixnSqI

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3269f3  No.834513

>>834505

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

>SHOULD

He literally just got done saying salvation is not o works. He's saying you're not saved by works, but that after you are saved you should do them

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3269f3  No.834514

>>834506

>By their works you shall know them".

Pretty sure it says 'fruit' not 'works'. He's talking of the people's followers. If a preacher's followers are alll heretics, that says something about himself

>it's not because of works you go to heaven, but of faith is true enough, but if you have faith and follow the Lord, you will do good works.

Translaion: You're not saved by works, but you're not saved with out them.

You may wanna give Romans 4:5 and Titus 3:5 another read

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

>>834508

Yes, you should do works after being saved and you'll get more rewards in heaven. The heresy is saying you need them to be saved.

>Because Jesus spoke of the “least” and the “greatest” in heaven

As said in Matthew 5

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Even the man not following the commandments, and tells others not to, is still going to Heaven, but will be the least.

>> Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

That's because your old man(the flesh) sins, but if you're saved, the new man(your spirit) doesnot sin. Paul talks in Romans 7 about struggling with sin, but I believe 1 John says how saved people do not sin becasue we are born of God. Only way to reconcile the two. ANd as for the list, Revelation 21:8 also includes all liars. I guess you never lie then?

>>834509

>No denomination says works do the actual saving though.

If you say you need works in order to be saved then works contribute to your salvation.

>No - "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

>We cant be biased and simply take the verses we are interested in to make our point, we need the entire bible in context.

which you literally just did by quoting that >>834512

>parable

Putting parables over clear statements is autistic. And in that one it says "47That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows" Which I agree, you should do works and if you don't God will punish you, but he won't send you to hell.

>Why does he say its the Christian view? its the view of some Christians.

Because if you don't then you're an unsaved heretic and not a Christian

>>834511

Forget to change your flag?

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3269f3  No.834515

Also, here's all the verses in text

John

1:12

3:15-18/36

4:14(John 6:35)

5:24

6:28-29/35/37-40/47

7:38-39

8:24

10:27-29

11:25-27

12:46

14:1-3

16:27

20:31

Matthew

5:19

7:21-23(John 6:38-40)

8:10-13

9:2

12:37

21:31-32

Mark

1:15

2:5

16:16

Luke

3:3(Acts 19:4)

5:20

7:48-50

8:12

18:10-14/42

23:40-43

Acts

2:21

3:19

10:43

11:16-17

13:38-39/48

15:7-9

16:30-31

19:4(Luke 3:3)

26:18

Romans

1:16-17

3:20-31

4:2-16/24

5:1/15-18

6:23

10:9-13

11:6

1 Corinthians

1:14-18/21

3:14-15

15:1-2

Galatians

2:16/21

3:6-11/14/21-26

5:3-5

Ephesians

1:13-14

2:8-9

Philippians

3:9

1 Thessalonians

4:14

2 Thessalonians

1:10

2:12

1 Timothy

1:16

2 Timothy

1:9

3:15

Titus

3:5

Hebrews

4:3

10:38-39

11:7

1 Peter

1:3-5/8-9

2:6-7

3:21(Colossians 2:12)

1 John

4:2-3/15

5:1/4-5/10-11/13

Revelation

2:11 (1 John 5:10-11)

3:5 (1 John 5:10-11)

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5c7dd6  No.834516

>>834509

It is the Christian view. That vid doesn't really go into justification by faith alone like I thought it would.

Here's a better one https://invidio.us/IXpX1Gy4vYA

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b5586e  No.834517

Is a believing sodomite saved?

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31d06b  No.834519

It’s a balance of both. Everything God touches he puts balance into it. Get to know his personality through a relationship with him. You are all ignoring the obvious because it’s making you question your own churches. It’s time for all of you to wake up. You must get to know God’s as a person. All Christian journeys, when reaching maturity, lead to this moment.

I think I’m done here.

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31d06b  No.834520

God*

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3269f3  No.834522

>>834517

Oxymoron

And this thread isn't about the reprobate doctrine.

>>834519

>It’s a balance of both

Not for salvation. You should do good works, but they will never save you.

And literally no one has addressed any of the verses in OP pic. If sola fide is wrong, then you should be able to explain why the verse does not teach that.

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3269f3  No.834523

>>834520

Did you again forget to change your flag?

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d0c46e  No.834525

>>834514

You know, the denial of reality and scripture is just sad, almost delusional.

>>834515

The infamous "wall of text" of neglectful induction argument.

No logic or attempt to tie it all together, just throw out a cut and paste wall of text and let the people who embrace Christian Charity try and figure out what your argument is.

Just sad.

I'll pray for you.

You need to follow the Lord. yes, faith, but faith means you do good works because the Lord asked.

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d0c46e  No.834526

>>834514

>Translaion: You're not saved by works, but you're not saved with out them

This is an example of cognitive dissonance, or a straw man argument.

It is literally not what I said, it is a lie, false.

If faith then works.

But works don't imply faith.

That is my argument because that is what Christ said.

You've lied about the Word Of God!

there is no arguing with you, only Prayer can bring back an unrepentant sinner.

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31d06b  No.834528

>>834517

I thought I was done maybe after this.

Please read all the way through.

Homosexuality falls under fornication. Way passed the line into fornication. God can’t create a life through such a union. Not even you are a product of such a union. No one has ever came screaming into the world without a mother and a father. Your sins are not the type God gives mercy to. They are the type God has no use for and can do nothing Good with. However, his mercies have great power, and he WILL forgive you and save you if you stop sleeping with men. I don’t know if you can find it in yourself to be attracted to a woman, but if you show God you’ve repented he will heal your mind to the point of finding that attraction, or give you the powers to abstain from physically doing that sin with another. He just may give you more than what I mentioned. No one’s built gay. We inherit urges/inclinations for specific sins because of the sins of our parents and grandparents and great grandparents. Some act on these inclinations and become them. Others never act on them and the urge shrinks into nothing, specially after finding a mate. I don’t know how much healing you can find after repentance, but you still can absolutely be saved. I wish you the best.

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b5586e  No.834529

>>834522

Why is it an oxymoron? Is it because he does what is wrong? If he believes, why can't he be saved?

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31d06b  No.834530

>>834523

No. I have no need for such foolishness. The world may accept that this is not how things are done in these message boards, but Christians should go by different manners. Among brothers such things are just benefiting from worldly tendencies. The voice of God says it has no true place here, in this particular ‘catalog’. If you take this catalog seriously then you know it belongs to Christ, and should strive to not hide behind symbols amongst your brothers. Some hiding is ok, this is clearly not my name, but many here shift in the shadows. I don’t judge any of you for that. It’s way far from being a sin.

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ff9751  No.834538

>>834526

>If faith then works.

>But works don't imply faith.

this pretty much sums it up.

The great thing about doing good works is that we do not risk damnation, and we can be sure of our faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5

>Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?

But what if you don’t believe in works, and your faith becomes dead?

Titus 1:16

> They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him

Matthew 7:21

> "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

You do not want to risk hearing those awful words, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work lawlessness.”

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3269f3  No.834541

>>834525

not an argument

also not an argument. I just wanted to paste the verses so someone could get it in text form if they so wish.

>>834526

You pretty much said how you aren't saved by works but if you believe then you will certainly have them, which goes against Romans 4:5

>>834529

Because reprobates can't believe. Not what the thread is about so I'm not going to discuss it in this thread.

Everyone that believes the right gospel is saved, so hypothetically if a sodomite believes they would be saved, but the way someone becomes a sodomite is by being given over to a reprobate mind (Romans 1:24-32)

>2 Corinthians 13:5, Titus 1:16

Like I said in OP "If you don't believe sola fide, then say why that verse is not teaching that. Don't just spout off other verses like James 2 because otherwise this thread will just be a dung flinging contest like wha always happens. If sola fide isn't true then you should be able to explain the verses, and not just the 'Supporting' ones."

2 Cor a3:5 doesn't say anything of works

for Titus 1:16 see >>834512 pretty much the same thing. Man only sees your works. If I see someone habitually living in sin I may doubt if they actually believe, but they still can and maybe do. But I can only see their works, God can see their faith. Your works show others that you believe, but you don't need to 'prove' to God that you believe because he already knows if you do or not.

>Matthew 7:21

If you don't take that verse out of context it proves sola fide and OSAS, so nice job there buddy

Matthew 7

>21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Doing the Father's will is believing on Christ, not doing works.

John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

>22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Those people were trusting in their works to save them, then get cast into hell.

>23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He can't say he never knew you if you used to be saved. He would have to say I used to know you.

https://invidio.us/QZ6EM_NSSEk

>You do not want to risk hearing those awful words, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work lawlessness.”

Do you not know what "I never knew you" means? If those people were once saved then he would have said "I know ye not anylonger" but he didn't, because those people never were saved. Which is exactly what Jesus will say to you if you continue trying to work your way to heaven.

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3269f3  No.834542

>>834541

meant to also quote >>834538

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b5586e  No.834547

>>834541

>hypothetically if a sodomite believes they would be saved

I see.

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0455df  No.834552

>>834541

Then what does it mean by everyone who says “Lord, Lord” ? Does this not emphasize their false devotion and empty faith?

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4ada47  No.834554

I'm pretty sure I never heard any of our priests talk about karma.

Of course salvation is by faith. But what sort of faithful person doesn't keep the commandments?

In fact we're encouraged multiple times to keep the commandments and I'm pretty sure one of them is to love thy neighbor.

Donating money doesn't earn you heaven points, but it is an act of faith.

Why are people still arguing about this?

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a68b41  No.834555

>>834496

>People are simply trying to take James seriously.

I would think they would read vv. 14-18 in that case.

>>834505

>Ephesians 2:8-9, as you list, is immediately proceeded by a verse that says we are prepared to do works through faith.

Yes it does. Glad you agree with us.

>>834508

>it doesn’t get any more clear than 1 Cor. 6:

>quotes a devious mistranslation of Paul's words

Friend, You should at least quote an accurate translation before saying something is clear.

>>834525

It's not very charitable to accuse someone of sinning, wanting to sin when you don't even know them. It's just too bad the ever uncertain Arminians rely on this evil surmising so much. Please take another look at 1 Corinthians 13. Charity is not easily provoked, and thinketh no evil. Not exactly descriptive of your posts.

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a68b41  No.834556

>>834554

Good questions. I think part of it has to with too much scholasticism.

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3269f3  No.834557

>>834552

>Then what does it mean by everyone who says “Lord, Lord”

Because not everyone that claims to call Jesus Lord is saved, like catholics, methodists, 7th day adventists, etc.

>Does this not emphasize their false devotion and empty faith?

Did you not read verse 22? I'll post it again, maybe you'll see it this time

>22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Were they just trusting in faith alone? No, they were trusting in their prophesying, casting out devils, and works. They didn't say "Lord, Lord, have we not believed on thy name that thou art the messiah" now did they

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0455df  No.834558

>>834514

>Pretty sure it says 'fruit' not 'works'. He's talking of the people's followers

uh I’m pretty sure it says “fruit” not “followers.” See how foolish that sounds?

Here is more context for the meaning of this passage from Matthew 12:33-37

>33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

>34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

>35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

> 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

>37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Nowhere do we see an indication of the fruits representing followers. That can’t be the case, because Christ himself is the Teacher, but many who claim to follow him are not good. So if an atheist sees a “Christian” who behaves wrongly, wouldn’t he be wrong by judging the leader, that is, Christ? So you can’t judge men by their followers either, because that doesn’t always tell you about the man himself. The easiest way to judge a man is by the man himself, the works that he produces, the words he says.

https://carm.org/you-will-know-them-by-their-fruit

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0455df  No.834561

>>834557

But Jesus says they are workers of iniquity. So even if they have done a few good things every now and then, like the Christian who may donate and give his time for a church event, they might do a lot of bad, such as fornicating and getting drunk on the weekends. He’s saying that even though they’ve done some good, that won’t save them from all the evil they’ve done, the things that they’ve been told not to do. If they loved Jesus, then they would have followed his commands (John 14:15)

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a68b41  No.834563

>>834561

>(Matthew 19:26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

>(Philippians 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

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6283a0  No.834566

>>834491

Apparently suicides go to Hell so sola fide can't be correct.

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5c7dd6  No.834567

>>834554

You're not addressing the argument

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5c7dd6  No.834568

>>834566

what do you think Sola fide means

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3269f3  No.834569

>>834558

>Nowhere do we see an indication of the fruits representing followers.

It's also in Matthew 7. But if it solely meant works "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." wouldn't make any sense. Can an atheist not give to the poor? And can a saved Christian not do something wrong(like David commiting adultery and murder)?

>but many who claim to follow him are not good

>claim

Exactly

>>834561

>But Jesus says they are workers of iniquity.

Yes, because they were trusting in their actions to save them.

And Again, he says "I never knew you", I'm assuming you believe people get saved then lose it, he can't say he never knew them if they were once his sheep

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

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3269f3  No.834570

>>834566

>Apparently suicides go to Hell

No they don't. A few people in the Bible killed themselves, the most famous being king Saul. And king Saul is in heaven. The day before he died Samuel told him he will be with him the next day, unless you want to say Samuel was in hell which is ridiculous

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a68b41  No.834572

>>834566

What scripture are you thinking of to back that up?

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5c7dd6  No.834573

>>834570

I've never heard that! Very interesting, that's sound logic.

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3269f3  No.834574

>>834554

>Of course salvation is by faith

And you believe you also need good works, baptism, and the euchrist.

>But what sort of faithful person doesn't keep the commandments?

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>worketh not, but believeth

Watch 0:15 - 0:50 that's basically what you're saying and it's autistic

https://invidio.us/Br_R0ZdwhuQ

>>834572

Of course they don't have any, but the RCC at least says suicide is a sin, and since they believe you lose your salvation if you sin, then you don't have time to repent(I heard that's why some catholics commited suicide by drownig so they can repent while dying, but then they just go to hell anyways for being a heretic)

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6283a0  No.834575

>>834570

I don't think that's a good example since that may not have actually been Samuel speaking to Saul. If it was really Samuel's ghost then that would mean necromancy/mediumship is possible.

>>834568

Sola fide is "by faith alone". Under that doctrine a Christian could commit the sin of suicide but still be saved and go to Heaven anyway.

>>834572

I personally can't find any Scripture that specifically backs up suicide=Hell. But it seems to be a rather favored doctrine among most everybody here and in general Christian circles. They must have a good reason.

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5c7dd6  No.834576

>>834575

No, those two things are not the same.

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6283a0  No.834577

>>834576

Sola fide literally means "faith alone" in English, how are they not the same?

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5c7dd6  No.834578

>>834577

Sola fide is a doctrine of justification. You're thinking of antinomianism, which is a rejection of the law (ie, sin doesn't matter)

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a68b41  No.834579

>>834575

Actually read that passage in 1 Samuel 28 more carefully, the part about the witch saying he came up from the ground is unreliable, but the part about Samuel appearing to Saul anyways is narrative. All the passage proves is that with God it is possible for that kind of thing to happen, just as Moses and Elias appeared on the mount of transfiguration. The sorceress acted surprised because it was not part of her plan.

>They must have a good reason.

It is our obligation to find out Scriptural reasons. Obviously there are a lot of popular ideas that go against what God actually said.

We must always loyally recall what God said, "for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."

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4ada47  No.834580

>>834567

Because there's literally nothing to argue about.

It's just semantics.

The verses in the OP work together with James 2 to make a complete idea of salvation.

Salvation is not something you acquire by yourself, it's given to you by the grace of God, and it requires co-operation from each of us constantly. Everyday you must take up your cross to receive salvation.

Can you say that a person loves Christ if they commit genocide? Or even never give up on their vices?

“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23

Faith isn't separated from works. They're not 2 distinct things, unless you're talking about karma, which has no place in Christianity.

The point of the so-called "pro sola fide" verses are that karma doesn't earn you salvation. You can't earn good boy points because you literally can't be a good boy (fallen nature of humanity etc), and a criminal who sometimes donates to charity is still a criminal.

God just gives the good boy points to you because He loves you.

>>834574

>And you believe you also need good works, baptism, and the euchrist.

For good works, see my response above to the other anon.

As for baptism and eucharist, I'm afraid I'm not informed enough to argue yet. But I'll look into it. The way I see things at the moment is that we're simply following Christ's urge to "do this in remembrance of Me" and "all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

>Anderson clip

I'm fully certain that salvation is not something you acquire in a second, otherwise there would be no more struggle and no "taking up your cross every day".

God knows your heart and you don't need to prove anything to Him if you truly love Him, but if there are discrepancies between what you feel and what you do, isn't that an indication that something isn't quite working?

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6283a0  No.834582

>>834578

Fair enough, but then that would mean that you're no longer justified if you sin hard enough, i.e. suicide or presumably some other "big" sin.

>>834579

In 1 Samuel 28 verse 6 it states that Saul already tried to inquire of God through dreams and prophets and received no answer. Why would God refuse to answer Saul through the prophets but then suddenly decide to do so via a witch?

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5c7dd6  No.834583

>>834580

I don't know if you're new to historical theology but there have been schisms over "just semantics". It's important.

>it's given to you by the grace of God,

Yes

>and it requires co-operation from each of us constantly.

This is the disagreement

>>834582

Now you're thinking of once saved always saved, or a different articulation of eternal security

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0455df  No.834584

>>834512

>Two, it’s not talking about salvation, it’s talking about saving someone from dying, the next few verses talk about not giving people food. Not every time the Bible uses the word “save” is about salvation

no, he was giving an example to illustrate his point. Telling a poor man that you wish him well without actually helping him is like having faith and not doing good works. He goes on to say that faith without works is dead. What day you? What does this have to do with being saved materially? The interpretation should be fairly clear: through faith we are saved, and our works justify (prove) our faith to be true and alive, not dead.

This is one of the biggest, most desperate stretches I have ever seen.

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3269f3  No.834585

>>834575

>may not have actually been Samuel speaking to Saul

that's what it says

>If it was really Samuel's ghost then that would mean necromancy/mediumship is possible.

The witch seemed surprised so she may not have thought it would work, but it does say it's Samuel.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

>They must have a good reason.

There reason is the catholic church teaches it along with all their other heresies

>>834580

>work together with James 2 to make a complete idea of salvation.

James 2 has zero to do with salvation >>834512

>it's given to you by the grace of God, and it requires co-operation from each of us constantly. Everyday you must take up your cross to receive salvation.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It can't be by both grace and works

>Luke 9:23

I agree, but that's not for salvation

> Faith isn't separated from works

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

worketh not, but believeth

not hard to understand

And also with "faith without works is dead" makes no sense if faith without works doesn't exist, see link on here >>834512

>unless you're talking about karma, which has no place in Christianity.

>are that karma doesn't earn you salvation

Then stop saying it that's a hindu word

>we're simply following Christ's urge to "do this in remembrance of Me" and "all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

Yes, but that doens't contribute to salvation

>otherwise there would be no more struggle and no "taking up your cross every day".

Again, that has nothing to do with salvaion. It's Christian living after already having been saved. Like Ephesians 2:8-10, says how we're saved by faith without works, but we still SHOULD do works after being saved.

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0455df  No.834586

>>834585

>but we still SHOULD do works after being saved

why?

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6283a0  No.834588

>>834583

So are we eternally secure or not?

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5c7dd6  No.834591

>>834588

Yes eternal security is true, but it is not the same as or necessarily following from sola fide.

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6283a0  No.834592

>>834591

All right. If we really are eternally secure then suicide wouldn't separate a believer from God. Romans 8:31-39 seems to support this.

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a68b41  No.834593

>>834582

>Why would God refuse to answer Saul through the prophets but then suddenly decide to do so via a witch?

God did not need anything in order to answer Saul, and as to his timing I am not going to question His judgement, I am merely going to say you don't need to take anything the witch/sorceress says as reliable. God already condemned it elsewhere in Scripture.

>>834584

The passage makes perfect sense, I'm not sure where you're getting confused in James 2.

>>834586

Because James 2, 1 Corinthians 4:1-4; 3:12-15, etc.

2 Corinthians 4:3, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:"

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5c7dd6  No.834594

>>834592

It is my opinion that suicide doesn't necessarily mean damnation.

If you want to discuss suicide you should make a new thread about it.

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6283a0  No.834595

>>834594

I brought it up because it suicide=Hell goes against sola fide. What makes a believer eternally secure? If it isn't via grace then what else is it? You can say grace+works both together but there's Ephesians 2:8-9 which explicitly states grace.

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a68b41  No.834596

>>834594

>>834595

He must think this is a silver bullet argument because then people will accuse you of saying suicides are saved, and therefore encouraging suicide.

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5c7dd6  No.834597

>>834595

You've just gone back in a circle. You're conflating the issues.

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0455df  No.834598

>>834595

works flow necessarily from faith, and faith comes from grace. It’s not exactly the same as saying we are saved by works. But our works justify our faith, which does save us. Every verse that emphasizes the importance of believing and having faith is certainly true, but it is works that fulfills the faith, and demonstrates belief.

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6283a0  No.834599

>>834596

Not really. The Bible shows murder can be forgiven. That doesn't mean anyone is encouraging murder.

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a68b41  No.834601

>>834599

Ok then I have no idea why you're bringing it up because most of us are against that idea, although most of the world is for it because they are afraid of being accused of encouraging it if they don't say that. I think we can move on now.

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6283a0  No.834604

>>834598

What about the thief on the cross? He had no works at all and was still saved. Also Romans 4:5

>But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

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5c7dd6  No.834605

>>834604

Dismas would have manifested works if he didn't die immediately following his regeneration

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b5586e  No.834608

>>834591

Genuine question:

Why isn't eternal security a game of hindsight 20/20?

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d0c46e  No.834609

>>834555

>It's not very charitable to accuse someone of sinning

It's a requirement, a Christian Charity in some religions.

Just out of curiosity, this "I don't have to do good works" mantra… what is it that you're trying to get out of? Giving to the poor? Being nice to people? Is this some sort of justification to sin?

Curious why Baptist are so hell bound to say they don't have to do good works. Curious why they literally cannot see other parts of the Bible that explain that there were jews who did good works just to show off and had no faith, but that those with faith would do good works.

besides, if you do the sola scripta thing, I guess I can sin all day long by saying you're leading souls to hell and as long as I had faith, I'm good with Almighty God, right?

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31d06b  No.834610

>>834599

There are many things that can be forgiven when someone accepts Christ. But afterwards he is not allowed to commit murder, idolatry, or fornication. Even if said person does these things again he can be forgiven, but that is up to God. And doing it even once afterwards can grieve the Holy Spirit. Forgiveness is decided by God, not man. No priest can tell you your sins are forgiven. It’s God who will let you know.

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a68b41  No.834614

>>834609

>It's a requirement, a Christian Charity in some religions.

So then you'll admit to doing the same thing that you're accusing in that case?

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d0c46e  No.834621

>>834614

Please explain why your belief that you need not do anything good at all and you're still saved is so important to you?

Why do you ignore the passages about by the fruits and instructions to feed the hungry and give to the poor you can ignore.

You keep ignoring the truth being pointed out and making personal attacks, then acting all offended.

why is it so important that you keep saying you don't have to do anything good?

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5c7dd6  No.834623

>>834608

I don't understand what you're getting at. We believe eternal security because we think it's what the Bible teaches, we don't claim to have certain knowledge of anyone's salvation in particular.

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a68b41  No.834628

>>834621

I originally responded to you saying you were relying on evil surmisings against someone you know nothing about, who may very well be living a more works-centered life than you are. So far you've avoided answering for that evil surmising by showing us how and where you are so much holier than the person you were so uncharitably accusing, through evil surmisings. Despite exhorting us to be more charitable.

>You keep ignoring the truth being pointed out and making personal attacks, then acting all offended.

I think you may have confused me with someone else unintentionally or on purpose. If you want to respond to me please respond to my posts. I'm just not letting you change the subject. Also, I don't even think the person you are referring to ignored those passages.

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b3f5a1  No.834630

sola fide is retarded, how about those people that existed before Christ?

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a68b41  No.834631

>>834630

Hebrews 11:13

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Genesis 3:15

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Job 19:25-26

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

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5c7dd6  No.834632

>>834630

Romans 4:1-3 NASB — What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

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b5586e  No.834633

>>834623

Baptists claim all the time they were saved. They idolize dates and events that saved them, as well. If you disagree that saying "I'm saved" is wrong, then you disagree with mainline Baptist thought.

I've had responses from Baptists here that people who appear to be saved aren't true saved if they, let's say, apostatize. Being true saved or falsely saved only works in hindsight, is what I'm trying to convey.

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5c7dd6  No.834634

>>834633

Not what I'm saying.

There is no more important day in your life than when you are born again. Nobody idolizes a day, that's dumb animosity.

I am saved. I know I'm saved because of what the Bible says. I know I will persevere because I am saved.

>Being true saved or falsely saved only works in hindsight, is what I'm trying to convey.

The end of life is the best vantage point to make a speculative judgment yes

This isn't an argument against the doctrine

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b5586e  No.834635

>>834634

Maybe I haven't talked to true Baptists, indeed. I'm only trying to understand what you mean.

You said

>we don't claim to have certain knowledge of anyone's salvation in particular

Now you say

>I know I'm saved

You just claimed to know you're saved. I don't get it.

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d0c46e  No.834636

>>834628

Yeah, I get it. I'm evil and you hate me.

Why is this claim that you don't need to do any good works to be saved is so important? What would you do different in life if it wasn't true?

>I think you may have confused me with someone else unintentionally or on purpose.

I know. I asked a question, so I'm obviously evil.

Not sure why you still can't answer a legit question. Why is not doing good things others so important to you?

>>834633

Seems to me that if this was true, then as soon as Baptist accepted salvation, they'd be raptured up to heaven. Why go on living if you're saved?

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5c7dd6  No.834638

>>834635

I was talking about anyone else

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b5586e  No.834639

>>834638

Why, then, are you only sure about yourself?

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5c7dd6  No.834652

>>834639

Because all I have for anyone else is their testimony

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b5586e  No.834657

>>834652

How is it any different from what we have regarding our judgement about ourselves?

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5c7dd6  No.834658

>>834657

Because people can lie outwardly. People hide sin.

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3269f3  No.834660

>>834586

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Here's an analogy. You will always be your dad's son and will never disown you nor put you on fire, but since you love your father you do what he says, and if you don't you get a spanking, but he still doesn't throw you into the oven to burn you. And if you do do right then he rewards you and you get to have a better life.

Also, shouldn't you want to preach the gospel to others even though you know you aren't then more likely to go to heaven?

>>834588

yes

>>834591

You can't really have one without the other. If you believe you can lose your salvation by sinning then you don't believe sola fide.

>>834584

maybe because that's what it says? Nowhere does the passage mention eternal life, it's about doing works AFTER you get saved, which is why James keeps saying 'bretheran' throughout the epistle.

>through faith we are saved

yes

>and our works justify (prove) our faith to be true and alive, not dead.

Yes, to man. You don't need to prove your faith to God because he can see your heart, man can't. That's why Romans 4:2 says "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD." That means he was justified to man, as said in James 2:24, not to God.

He literally tells the meaning of verse 14 in verse 18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

>>834598

> but it is works that fulfills the faith, and demonstrates belief.

Yes, but you also seem to believe you have to do works, be baptized, partake in the Lord's supper, etc. in order to be saved. And that you can lose it if you sin. You're then not just trusting in the blood of Jesus to save you, but trying to work your way to heaven.

>>834605

And he wasn't baptized not did communion. That's just a cop out and you then contradict Romans 4:5 like anon just posted

>But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>worketh not, but believeth

You can't say you know he was for sure going to do works, considering it says people believe but don't

>>834609

>what is it that you're trying to get out of?

Or maybe because that's what the Bible says?

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But as the next verse says

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them.

Not have to to be saved like faith in verse 8. But SHOULD

>>834621

>Please explain why your belief that you need not do anything good at all and you're still saved is so important to you?

1. Because it's what the Bible says

2. You're making a mockery of the sacrifice of Christ by thinking you need to be a goodboi in order to go to heaven. You're saying that the blood of Christ isn't enough and you need to do your own righteousnesses(filthy rags) to get to heaven.

>Why do you ignore the passages about by the fruits and instructions to feed the hungry and give to the poor you can ignore.

We don't. It's just something you should do after being saved, not something that is required to get saved.

>>834630

He's the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. That's why Isaiah 53 is in the past-tense even though for man it hasn't happened yet

>>834639

Because only you know yourself that you believe. You can't be certain that someone that claims to be saved is really a Judas. Are they? Probably not, but you only can know for certain that your saved.

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3269f3  No.834661

File: e6d32b3646509f4⋯.jpg (29.36 KB, 600x541, 600:541, e6d32b3646509f405fc35b3aae….jpg)

Literally the only verse talked about from the list is Matthew 7:21-23(unless I missed one)

So stay on track because this did turn into a dung flinging contest like it always does

So anything else about like 'muh James 2' I'm just going to ignore. And like I said in the OP post if sola fide isn't true then you should be able to explain the verses without having to deflect to a different one(unless it's for context, but something like James 2 isn't context for John 3:16)

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5c7dd6  No.834662

File: 6842db426798181⋯.jpg (58.59 KB, 309x400, 309:400, James_Arminius_2.jpg)

>>834660

>If you believe you can lose your salvation by sinning then you don't believe sola fide.

K

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b5586e  No.834663

>>834658

So? One can deceive oneself as much as deceive others. It is no different. Paul complains his will deceives him, for example.

Only fruits can show the truth, never mental states or other misleading concepts.

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5c7dd6  No.834665

>>834663

If you're pointing out that a self judgment can also be fallible I agree

I still have a certainty for myself, and it's reasonable for any believer to feel the same.

1 John 5:13 NASB — These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

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b5586e  No.834668

>>834665

You're taking it out of context from exactly my point. That of 1 John 5:2-5. Keeping the commandments and overcoming the world is how we know we have found faith, yet you say it is by a mental affirmation.

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3269f3  No.834669

>>834662

It's salvation by faith alone. Not salvation by faith and stop sinning(which is impossible).

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3269f3  No.834670

>>834668

Dude, we can see you keep false flagging. You keep switching flags and say anti-baptist theology with a Baptist flag

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3269f3  No.834672

>>834670

>>834668

Yeah, now it's back to an Othodox flag. I dunno if it was you also, but someone else kept switching flags in the thread

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b5586e  No.834674

>>834670

None of my posts have a Baptist flag.

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5c7dd6  No.834678

>>834668

I think we're talking past each other. I don't say it's mere mental affirmation, I'm just saying it's my opinion that I can only have effective certainty on my own faith. If I didn't have works then I would know I wasn't saved, just like you're pointing out.

The verse was just for a statement of knowledge of salvation, which in context touches on fruits and an orthodox confession.

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a68b41  No.834680

>>834636

>Yeah, I get it. I'm evil and you hate me.

I never said that.

>Why is this claim that you don't need to do any good works to be saved is so important?

It's important because people are pelagians and teaching works salvation.

>I know. I asked a question, so I'm obviously evil.

I never said that or anything remotely like that. I said if you are assuming evil in others then you are making false accusations like right now. I'm trying to tell you that's not a good idea.

>Why is not doing good things others so important to you?

Maybe you're just antinomian in that case? I don't know why not doing good things is important to you.

>>834668

The Scripture proves it is possible to have certainty of those things regarding yourself. They wrote about that.

And regarding others we shall know them by their fruits. For a good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Whether or not you believe the word of God is apparent to yourself. Someone who is saved can know with certainty those things which they believe, the certainty that God cannot lie and that which he said he would perform will be done with certainty.

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d0c46e  No.834681

>>834660

Why won't you answer the question of what you'd do differently? You keep evading this question by saying you don't have to do good works because "the bible says" (it doesn't but that's besides the point), but won't say what you'd do different.

Would you, like tell the hungry to whinny the poo off? Or the thirsty to dry up? Why is this so important?

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3269f3  No.834688

>>834674

It at least did for a while, and someone near the top of the thread was posting like a catholic but with a Baptist flag.

>>834681

> (it doesn't but that's besides the point),

Romans 4:5, Titus 3:5, an Ephesians 2:8-9 again buddy

>but won't say what you'd do different.

What I would do differently if I believed you do need works to be saved?

then you're pretty much asking

>If you believed you have to do works or burn forever vs get a spanking what would you do differently?

Should be pretty obvious, I'd probably do more works(funny thing is though prots/Baptists on average are more charitable than caths)

>whinny the poo

No attempting to swear on this Christian Minecraft server

>like tell the hungry to whinny the poo off? Or the thirsty to dry up?

No, which is what James 2 is about. You should help people out otherwise your faith is dead(not non-existent)

>Why is this so important?

Like I said in that post

1. Because it's what the Bible says

2. You're making a mockery of the sacrifice of Christ by thinking you need to be a goodboi in order to go to heaven. You're saying that the blood of Christ isn't enough and you need to do your own righteousnesses(filthy rags) to get to heaven.

>Why do you ignore the passages about by the fruits and instructions to feed the hungry and give to the poor you can ignore.

We don't. It's just something you should do after being saved, not something that is required to get saved.

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d0c46e  No.834720

File: 5142380f17aa13d⋯.jpg (130.56 KB, 700x429, 700:429, By_the_fruits_you_shall_kn….jpg)

File: 27cfd1539d8ce08⋯.jpg (63.56 KB, 700x228, 175:57, No_salvation_outside_the_c….jpg)

>>834688

>You're making a mockery of the sacrifice of Christ by thinking you need to be a goodboi in order to go to heaven.

If you love sin more than Christ, and refuse to do as he asks, you are an unrepentant sinner and go to hell.

It's right there in the Bible. You keep denying the Bible, the very Word of God. The mental gymnastics to take passages out of context to support sin and greed astounds me. I'm casting pearls here.

I can see why there is no salvation outside the Holy Mother Church.

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8e3fa6  No.834729

Amen, brother. The more they move the goal posts, twist and manipulate is like a bad fever dream. Protestantism really a joke.

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5c0405  No.834732

File: 7d253de82dd345d⋯.mp4 (6.42 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, 7d253de82dd345d09d34fab3f4….mp4)

Why do Cathodox resemble LARPagans so much with their need to take up the traditions of men?

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8e3fa6  No.834751

>>834732

Traditions of Men are those that go against Gods commandments. Ex when the Priests said that you should give to the temple what should really go to helping your parents. The Church knows this verse very well, which is why it is against heresy.

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b5586e  No.834752

>>834678

I fully disagree we should have one measurement for ourselves and another for others.

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b5586e  No.834753

>>834732

Read Mark 7:1-8. It is talking about only worshiping God in exterior and word, not that doing anything at all is wrong.

Christ said his apostles will fast, he himself fasted, he was presented into the temple, had a Passover meal, etc.

Did Christ sin by being presented into the temple?

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3269f3  No.834758

>>834720

>If you love sin more than Christ, and refuse to do as he asks, you are an unrepentant sinner

yes

>and go to hell

no. Jesus says it's "whosoever believeth"

>pic 1

Verses 21-23 prove sola fideand OSAS, already talked about earlier. And the first part is the end of a different parable he was talking about

>pic 2

You could just say it's no salvatioon outside of God, since he tells Noah to 'come' into the ark, then to 'go out' of the ark, implying God is in there. And some wicked institution like the RCC certainly doesn't have God >>834194

And again, like I've said many times, you SHOULD try to stop sinning and you SHOULD do good works, but those will never save you otherwise Jesus is a liar when e said "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

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