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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 7f752c1c7fde36f⋯.jpg (739.73 KB, 1500x2254, 750:1127, William_Lane_Craig.jpg)

ed3031  No.834410

Discuss apologetics and share resources itt

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ed3031  No.834411

File: 30a3d524c9524eb⋯.jpg (574.68 KB, 1440x2283, 480:761, Screenshot_20200520_102554….jpg)

Rate

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d71825  No.834415

To argue against Christianity is to presuppose its falsity:

1 Cor 2:14

>But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 3:19

>For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Therefore, a sinful, natural, carnal man who argues against God through his reason alone is wasting his time, and only digging his hole even deeper.

With just 2 sentences and 2 verses, the atheist is shocked, and may be humbled.

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d71825  No.834417

From Will to Believe:

Believe truth! Shun error!—these, we see, are two materially different laws; and by choosing between them we may end by coloring differently our whole intellectual life. We may regard the chase for truth as paramount, and the avoidance of error as secondary; or we may, on the other hand, treat the avoidance of error as more imperative, and let truth take its chance. Clifford, in the instructive passage which I have quoted, exhorts us to the latter course. Believe nothing, he tells us, keep your mind in suspense forever, rather than by closing it on insufficient evidence incur the awful risk of believing lies. You, on the other hand, may think that the risk of being in error is a very small matter when compared with the blessings of real knowledge, and be ready to be duped many times in your investigation rather than postpone indefinitely the chance of guessing true. I myself find it impossible to go with Clifford. We must remember that these feelings of our duty about either truth or error are in any case only expressions of our passional life. Biologically considered, our minds are as ready to grind out falsehood as veracity, and he who says, "Better go without belief forever than believe a lie!" merely shows his own preponderant private horror of becoming a dupe. He may be critical of many of his desires and fears, but this fear he slavishly obeys. He cannot imagine any one questioning its binding force. For my own part, I have also a horror of being duped; but I can believe that worse things than being duped may happen to a man in this world: so Clifford's exhortation has to my ears a thoroughly fantastic sound. It is like a general informing his soldiers that it is better to keep out of battle forever than to risk a single wound. Not so are victories either over enemies or over nature gained. Our errors are surely not such awfully solemn things. In a world where we are so certain to incur them in spite of all our caution, a certain lightness of heart seems healthier than this excessive nervousness on their behalf. At any rate, it seems the fittest thing for the empiricist philosopher.

So proceeding, we see, first, that religion offers itself as a momentous option. We are supposed to gain, even now, by our belief, and to lose by our non-belief, a certain vital good. Secondly, religion is a forced option, so far as that good goes. We cannot escape the issue by remaining sceptical and waiting for more light, because, although we do avoid error in that way if religion be untrue, we lose the good, if it be true, just as certainly as if we positively chose to disbelieve. It is as if a man should hesitate indefinitely to ask a certain woman to marry him because he was not perfectly sure that she would prove an angel after he brought her home. Would he not cut himself off from that particular angel-possibility as decisively as if he went and married some one else? Scepticism, then, is not avoidance of option; it is option of a certain particular kind of risk. Better risk loss of truth than chance of error,—that is your faith-vetoer's exact position. He is actively playing his stake as much as the believer is; he is backing the field against the religious hypothesis, just as the believer is backing the religious hypothesis against the field. To preach scepticism to us as a duty until sufficient evidence' for religion be found, is tantamount therefore to telling us, when in presence of the religious hypothesis, that to yield to our fear of its being error is wiser and better than to yield to our hope that it may be true. It is not intellect against all passions, then; it is only intellect with one passion laying down its law. And by what, forsooth, is the supreme wisdom of this passion warranted? Dupery for dupery, what proof is there that dupery through hope is so much worse than dupery through fear? I, for one, can see no proof; and I simply refuse obedience to the scientist's command to imitate his kind of option, in a case where my own stake is important enough to give me the right to choose my own form of risk. If religion be true and the evidence for it be still insufficient, I do not wish, by putting your extinguisher upon my nature (which feels to me as if it had after all some business in this matter), to forfeit my sole chance in life of getting upon the winning side,—that chance depending, of course, on my willingness to run the risk of acting as if my passional need of taking the world religiously might be prophetic and right.

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ed3031  No.834418

>>834415

This is not apologetics, it's just a brash assertion. The skeptic obviously doesn't hold the Bible as authoritative.

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d71825  No.834419

>>834417

(continued, last)

All this is on the supposition that it really may be prophetic and right, and that, even to us who are discussing the matter, religion is a live hypothesis which may be true. Now, to most of us religion comes in a still further way that makes a veto on our active faith even more illogical. The more perfect and more eternal aspect of the universe is represented in our religions as having personal form. The universe is no longer a mere It to us, but a Thou, if we are religious; and any relation that may be possible from person to person might be possible here. For instance, although in one sense we are passive portions of the universe, in another we show a curious autonomy, as if we were small active centres on our own account. We feel, too, as if the appeal of religion to us were made to our own active good-will, as if evidence might be forever withheld from us unless we met the hypothesis half-way. To take a trivial illustration: just as a man who in a company of gentlemen made no advances, asked a warrant for every concession, and believed no one's word without proof, would cut himself off by such churlishness from all the social rewards that a more trusting spirit would earn,—so here, one who should shut himself up in snarling logicality and try to make the gods extort his recognition willy-nilly, or not get it at all, might cut himself off forever from his only opportunity of making the gods' acquaintance. This feeling, forced on us we know not whence, that by obstinately believing that there are gods (although not to do so would be so easy both for our logic and our life) we are doing the universe the deepest service we can, seems part of the living essence of the religious hypothesis. If the hypothesis were true in all its parts, including this one, then pure intellectualism, with its veto on our making willing advances, would be an absurdity; and some participation of our sympathetic nature would be logically required. I, therefore, for one cannot see my way to accepting the agnostic rules for truth-seeking, or wilfully agree to keep my willing nature out of the game. I cannot do so for this plain reason, that a rule of thinking which would absolutely prevent me from acknowledging certain kinds of truth if those kinds of truth were really there, would be an irrational rule. That for me is the long and short of the formal logic of the situation, no matter what the kinds of truth might materially be.

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d71825  No.834421

>>834418

it’s just the beginning of apologetics. The purpose is to make them doubt their judgment. Unless they believe that Christianity could not possibly be true (a true agnostic wouldn’t believe this, however), then they will realize the possibility of the futility in their reasoning in a natural state.

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ed3031  No.834423

File: 78a621e262ba7d1⋯.png (319.44 KB, 1600x1200, 4:3, 1583316978362.png)

>>834421

You mean like this

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ed3031  No.834425

>>834423

Except this meme depicts Christian belief as mere unfounded faith

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5baf07  No.834428

>>834425

Talking about a basis for faith is ridiculous, for we should hope in the Lord first and foremost.

William James is a fideist, I've read him tangentially.

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d8ca64  No.834430

>>834423

The best argument against skepticism is to just read the foundational texts of their own belief system at them. The pyrrhonist tradition as laid out by Sextus Empiricus is the source of all this garbage. Seriously, go read Against the Physicists and never let any neckbeard call you a science denier ever again. What's that, they think your maths is off? Quote Against the Learned at them. They even praise this moron in their YouTube videos because they haven't read any of his works and they know you haven't either, so they can just plagiarize some guy who quoted some professor who wrote a book saying it's totally awesome.

Skepticism at its core is the fundamental denial of all knowledge of any sort. (If you start to think it sounds like postmodernism, know that you're on the right track.) Fedoras simply apply it selectively where it suits them and where it doesn't they appeal to "science" (which is antiskeptical) and "self evident truths" which are anything but and also antiskeptical. Their entire worldview is incoherent and their positions are arbitrary and internally inconsistent.

St Augustine wrote against the skeptics and exposed them. (Especially against the academic tradition, which is slightly less dumb in some ways than that of Pyrrhon.) Given how influential St Augustine was especially in the West, you can understand that the laughable skeptical tradition was not the most popular thing in Christendom and that helped counteract the civilizational collapse which these morons were instigating back then and are repeating today.

It lasted just about a thousand years before a new crop of classicist pseudo-intellectuals came along and found fertile ground in the pagan renaissance by basically appealing to the age of the books.

* Against the Physicists is an attempt to debunk "physics", or what we would call natural science. Against the Learned is basically an attempt to show that you can't use geometry in applied physics (but before this point I was bored with pyrrhonism so I might not have gotten into all the details).

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840396  No.834441

>>834418

>The skeptic obviously doesn't hold the Bible as authoritative.

It is objected firstly that, as Christ said in the Gospel, "He that is of God heareth God's words," so then whoever is of God shall be able to gladly receive the things given to them by God. Furthermore, in particular to the words of God, it is stated by Paul in Romans 10:17, that, "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." So then it is pointless to expect faith to come by whatever else except by the word of God.

Second it is objected because you do not know who is a skeptic in the sense of truly rejecting God's authority and who is only mistakenly identifying themselves as one and might see the light of God's word, as many in the crowds did when hearing God's word they believed it.

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adaba3  No.834488

>>834430

eusebius wrote pyrrho learnt from hindu nastika's his doctrines although its questionable how faithful he is to his sources, some even say nagarjuna the greatest mahayana buddhist philosopher, was influenced by pyrrho, pyrrhonism is sometimes described as 'greek buddhism'

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941c4f  No.834521

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Here is good video to bread pill new agers

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5baf07  No.834527

>>834488

This can be a historical fallacy. Men can come up with similar inventions without communication.

Many variations of bows were invented in far away places, for example.

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46e888  No.834534

File: 43b5c545a9ae215⋯.jpg (147.83 KB, 1223x1166, 1223:1166, jew.jpg)

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ed3031  No.835219

File: 8c69b8fb10dbe62⋯.pdf (2.22 MB, Twelve_Points_That_Show_Ch….pdf)

>>834411

The book

I am convinced this is the best way to move a thinking agnostic or atheist to Christianity

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