6bed5e No.833266
I don't know why you guys are so hell bent on excluding us from the body of Christ. Yeah we're not "orthodox" in the Nicene sense, but not all Christians are Nicene Christians. Our theology is closer to Arianism indeed, I would consider myself a homoiousian Christian if I had lived in the late 3rd/early 4th century. The homoiousian doctrine was the dominate conceptualization of the Trinity (Godhead) doctrine, just read Tertullian or Origen or Justin Martyr. It was Athanasius who was the main proponent of of the homoousian doctrine whose followers later became the Nicene sect which morphed into the dominate form of Christianity after the Germanic Arians converted to Nicene Christianity in the 6th and 7th centuries.
Look our theology about God isn't that different from yours. You say God is one substance and three persons. We believe God is three substances, Elohim (The Father), Yahweh (The Son) and the Holy Ghost. All three of them are real personages and all are God but they aren't all equal, Yahweh is subordinate to Elohim and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to both. Yes we do believe Elohim was once a man in another universe, but our universe was created by Elohim and we worship him and the other personages of the Godhead alone. Everyone has the potential to become gods, humans are called gods in the Bible (see John 10), it's an eternal cycle which all intelligent beings have the opportunity to progress through.
Seriously just give us a flag here, there is no need to discriminate against non-Nicene Christians. We confess Jesus Christ, we confess he is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose three days later, and we look forward to his second coming. We believe in the same Bible you do. Yes our canon is larger but so what? I hear the Ethiopian Christians also have a larger canon yet no one seems to exclude them from the body of Christ.
Our theology actually fits pretty well with what the what the Israelites originally believed in. Do you know what Deuteronomy 32:8 originally said?
>When Elyon gave the nations as an inheritance, when he separated the sons of man, he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For Yahweh's portion was his people; Jacob was the lot of his inheritance".
We see from the dead sea scrolls (as well as evidence in the Greek translation of the OT known as the septuagint) that Elyon (the Most High God) and Yahweh are distinguished here, and that it was Elyon who set the gods over the nations, and the god he set over Israel was Yahweh who became Jesus because Elohim planned to redeem the world through Israel and through his Son Yahweh, Jesus Christ.
So just give us a flag, we are Christians, as I have proved it, we're just not Nicene Christians. Ask any scholar of religion if Mormonism is objectively Christian and they will tell you yes, excluding us is just sectarianism.
____________________________
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b51edd No.833268
You can post.
We won't consider you Christian.
You don't get a flag because you're not Christian.
Stick around and hopefully you'll convert, because hell is forever.
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665dc9 No.833269
>Ask any scholar of religion if Mormonism is objectively Christian and they will tell you yes
More proof it isn't.
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a2e2cd No.833271
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b042ec No.833274
>>833268
We are Christians I just proved it, seems like you have no argument. It's always you Nicene Christians inciting sectarianism, always you. Time and time again it is the Nicene Christians always trying to force their beliefs on everyone. Guess that's what happens when you mix politics with religion. But hell even Constantine himself became an Arian. I will never have the need to convert because I'm already converted. I confess Jesus Christ to be my lord and my savior, and I believe in his words, and I worship him, and I look forward to his coming.
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5a568f No.833275
>>833266
You're closer to Scientologists than Christians. I hope you realize that and meet the real Christ.
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b51edd No.833276
>>833274
I'm not a sacralist, I'm a baptist
I do not believe in Christianity via force
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6f9e0e No.833278
As you said, you believe God was once man. The Bible, however, says in Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
We, therefore, worship different gods. There differences cannot be reconciled between us.
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bf7f07 No.833283
The story about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon doesn't even make sense.
Not only do you have to believe that he was visited by an angel, but that he received these golden tablets that no one else saw, written in a language that doesn't and has never existed and that only Joseph Smith knew, that he translated them into English, and was forced to return them so that no other soul could see these tablets.
It's literally some retarded rip off of the story of Moses. But it takes it down a notch and sounds even dumber. Apparently God and said angel can't speak English, so they wrote out these tablets in a language in which Joseph Smith was the only man alive to know. And not just any language, but a reformed version of the language of the people that were cursed by God in the Book of Exodus. Not only that, but said book talks of civilizations that never existed and that we have zero archaeological evidence for ever having existed. At least in the Old and New Testaments, there is actual proof said civilizations existed. The Book of Mormon was literally all fabricated out of thin air from this spawn of satan.
Dude got laughed out of town and only succeeded in deceiving a bunch of gullible brainlets. Then a bunch of infighting within his blasphemous congregation resulted in him getting shot. He was an agent of the devil and died a blasphemer's death, and he's without a doubt in Hell for being a false teacher, leading so many people astray.
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6034c2 No.833287
>>833266
Even if we leave all issues of theology aside, your "church" was founded by violent Masonic perverts who are wholly detached from any branch of christianity.
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c8aa5e No.833290
>>833266
>arianism
i thought mormonism is closer to polytheism?
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b042ec No.833294
>>833276
You are a homoousian Christian and your belief about the Godhead is the same as what the Nicene Creed professes. You're basically the same.
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b042ec No.833295
>>833278
I worship the same God as you just with a slightly different understanding! God is speaking about his relationship with the universe in that passage. He is the single God of our cosmos. He created all things. There was no god of this universe formed before him. The Bible talks about the existence of other gods all the time I just pointed that out to you in my OP. Literally the first commandment presupposes the existence of other gods. Deuteronomy 10:17 says God is the God of gods! He is our God. Our only true God. We have no God but him, he is the God of gods for us. Paul says other gods exist in heaven and on earth, likely this is in reference to both demons but also the heavenly council we read about in Psalm 82! God stands in the divine council, he renders judgment among the gods.
>>833283
>Not only do you have to believe that he was visited by an angel
Oh so I guess you don't believe in the burning bush or Jesus being visited by an angel as he suffered for our sins in Gethsemane.
>but that he received these golden tablets that no one else saw,
Literally when you first open the Book of Mormon is talks about the testimony of the 3 witnesses and the 8 witnesses.
>written in a language that doesn't and has never existed
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1694&context=msr
>Not only that, but said book talks of civilizations that never existed and that we have zero archaeological evidence for ever having existed.
https://www.churchofJesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2000/01/mounting-evidence-for-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng
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b51edd No.833296
>>833294
Yes I am definitely Nicene as all Christians are. Never said otherwise.
The Nicene creed doesn't have anything to do with mixing state and church other than the circumstance that the state helped organize the council.
>>833295
>the same God as you just with a slightly different understanding
So not the same God
>Literally when you first open the Book of Mormon is talks about the testimony of the 3 witnesses and the 8 witnesses.
Show us the plates and we can talk
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6f9e0e No.833303
>>833295
>>>833278
>I worship the same God as you just with a slightly different understanding! God is speaking about his relationship with the universe in that passage. He is the single God of our cosmos. He created all things. There was no god of this universe formed before him. The Bible talks about the existence of other gods all the time I just pointed that out to you in my OP. Literally the first commandment presupposes the existence of other gods. Deuteronomy 10:17 says God is the God of gods! He is our God. Our only true God. We have no God but him, he is the God of gods for us. Paul says other gods exist in heaven and on earth, likely this is in reference to both demons but also the heavenly council we read about in Psalm 82! God stands in the divine council, he renders judgment among the gods.
Your understanding of the Bible is flawed.
1. He is saying don't have idols. People make gods out of things all the time. Hindus are examples of this.
2. In Deuteronomy 10:17, God is declaring his supremacy above all gods which are false gods, which references back to made gods. You may be wondering why this isn't spelled out and that's because it's obvious: it wasn't needed. Everyone understood God was the God of all and there are no other gods in the way you're interpreting it. It's similar to how people argue that Romans 1 isn't clear against homosexuality due to a translation error.
At the time, it was evident to everyone who read it as it was meant. Likewise, everyone knew what these verses about what "gods" meant.
3. Where did Paul reference other gods?
4. Again, this is a misunderstanding on your part. It's lowercase "gods," again, referencing idols.
Do you know another part where gods are referenced? Elijah. He killed all those people for a reason: they were idol worshippers.
Look, at the end of the day, we do worship vastly different gods. I worship a God who has no equal. He has no one above him and no one to the side of him. There are no other cosmos and no other universes. This is simply false and by that measure, we then do worship different gods. You worship one who is only supreme within his own creation. I worship one who is supreme over ALL creation.
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eed444 No.833305
>>833266
This is some really long bait.
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1af3b7 No.833313
I'm just gonna stand back and watch the Protestants enjoy the fruits of their man made religions.
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288e3b No.833316
>>833266
Hey man, I spent a lot of time thinking about that Deuteronomy verse the past few years. Specifically the division among the nations to members of the “heavenly court” (c/f psalm 83). It’s a very mysterious and exciting verse.
However you have to understand that “El” “Eloheim” “Elyon” are titles, not names. “God” “Lord” are titles. YHWH is a name. Yeshuah is a name.
If you think there is an “El” that has children gods, then you’re worshiping the Caananite diety which the Old Testament viciously condemns. “El’s children” are “the Baals” so that’s a serious error to conflate them with the trinity.
You have to know, that Joseph Smith’s “Gospel of Abraham” was a proven forgery. He didn’t know how to translate the text, but now that it’s gone under a microscope, it’s actually an Egyption text.
Jesus never went to America
You have to understand that your theology is rooted in a lie from a proven liar. Non-Nincene Christianity isn’t Christianity. I’m sorry friend.
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c8aa5e No.833317
>>833266
muslims are more christian than mormons
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c0f685 No.833323
>>833317
Disagree, they're both equally invalid.
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bf7f07 No.833328
>>833295
>Unironically citing BYU, a university owned and operated by the Mormon Temple, dedicated to Mormon apologetics
My sides!
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bbf8c0 No.833889
>>833295
Hey, if you are a mormon, I was wondering where in hell you guys got the succession of prophets idea from? There aren't that many biblical prophets who have orders of succession, and most good ones don't have them.
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1af3b7 No.833960
Why does Op care if the people he believes are damned to hell think he's Christian or not.
Don't Mormons teach that if they're a really good Mormon, that they become gods of their own world?
I mean, the Catechism of the Council of Trent and the Summa lay out Catholic belief. We have no secrets about white salamanders or teachings that we will become gods (which was the sin of Lucifer, btw)
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3ad3a8 No.833968
>>833266
Mormons believe in fake Jewish-made s— like planets, galaxies and space.
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b58d5e No.833975
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
No they're not
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
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af20f2 No.834144
>>833316
>Joseph Smith’s “Gospel of Abraham” was a proven forgery. He didn’t know how to translate the text, but now that it’s gone under a microscope, it’s actually an Egyption text.
Out of curiosity, can you please source this?
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ee62d1 No.834150
>>833295
> I worship the same God as you just with a slightly different understanding!
> slightly different
Are you serious? I would rather accept muslims as Christian than mormons. The list of differences you posted is so large, you could write an entire book about it, that's not just "slightly different".
>>834144
The TL;DR is that the supposed "book of Abraham" is actually just a manual for preparing mummies. At that time the Stone of Rosetta had not yet been discovered, so translating Egyptian hieroglyphs was impossible and Smith was able to make up anything he wanted.
https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/how-the-book-of-abraham-exposes-the-false-nature-of-mormonism/
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c10937 No.834168
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d4a118 No.834228
Hello. The reason many have such a hard time believing that Mormons are Christians are many.
First off you are Christians just as much as LDS, Jehovah’s witnesses, Born-Agains, Orthadox, Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and etc. All these churches are equally wrong in their beliefs of Christianity. Each one has different truths and different doctrines of devils. But since you were asking about Mormonism. I’ll focus on the simplest reasons why your belief in particular is frowned upon by many.
Other than the fact that your original leader’s teachings are full of many holes to me it came down to one thing. Your belief in polygamy.
Christ was very clear that whoever didn’t accept his version of what’s a proper holy marriage does not have the ‘gift’ (that is the Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit does not reside in anyone that has more than one spouse. Without this spirit it’s impossible to lead people to Christ. And every doctrine created by people without this spirit is a devils doctrine. You simply don’t tolerate anyone in your churches bringing this out. Now there are many other reasons, but you won’t accept them and call them lies. I can go on and on. But above all you’re religion/cult does not believe in the sanctity of marriage by Gods definition. No one can be fully devoted to more than one spouse. The Jews were allowed this because of their hard-headedness. Jesus put an end to that. Without the Holy Spirit one is always subjected to ever increasing falsehoods and demonic beliefs. When I see a picture of a Mormon man with many wives and their children together in a group photo I can see the pain in their eyes. Husbands not knowing the value of their wives, Wives not knowing that they deserve a man all to themselves. Male children in constant turmoil of being around a father with no real devotion to their mother, daughters growing up believing God sees them as property to be given to another man. Don’t get me started on the inbreeding, we can see it in your photos. You have some of the most unattractive/deformed young men and women. You watch all this befall you and you never properly study the Bible to understand what’s wrong with your lives. You go to Joseph Smiths doctrine.
Every single organization I mentioned is equally filthy. Some are better at one thing and some better at another. But you are all the same. You are just one part of what everyone considers the body of Christ. Yes you are part of Christendom. But not really Christian, just like everybody else. All Christian must get out of Babylon.
Whoever is in this forum that wants to be a true Christian pick up your cross and leave these organizations. Get together with others who are not owned by an organization and pray together for Holy Spirit and guidance. You only need two people to get together in the name of Christ for Christ to bless your meeting together and that’s your church. No church should have more individuals in it than the people in it can care about. Your church is your family in Christ. It can be done in any one of your homes. Notice how this corona virus lockdown doesn’t effect the kind of church Jesus wanted us to create. Two people can still get together and have a church. Memberships are of satan.
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d4a118 No.834234
After some prayer I realize what I’ve said is quite harsh to hear. I’m sorry, but it’s how I feel about the matter. To some degree it is generalization. But part of being in an organization means your open to some generalization. I remember what it was like when I was in a cult. And I’m truly sorry if what I said hurts. To be honest, there’s not much that can be said to change my mind on the matter. Bless you all.
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d44882 No.834962
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b51edd No.834963
>>834962
>15) Joseph Smith used a rock in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon
<Does putting the rock in the hat automatically void
revelation from God?
<While it may seem strange to us in the 21st century that someone could look into a rock and
see the translation of a text, it really only matters if Joseph Smith believed it—which he did.
Mormons actually believe this and even put it forward as an argument
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77bed9 No.834975
>Multiple gods
>men becoming gods after death
>polygamy
>dietary laws
>posthumous baptism
>ridiculous fanfiction 'scriptures' with no archaeological backing whatsoever
Doesn't sound anything like Christianity to me.
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3bf5df No.835181
I once wrote an article for an assignment on the similarities between Orthodox Christianity and Mormonism
To my surprise they share a significant deal of the concepts with regards to the nature of sin, of salvation and of theosis. Obviously the language they use is wholly distinct. From what i gathered, the Mormon scholastic point of view is that theosis is a literal physical thing while they think theosis as understood by the orthodox is just an incoherent nonsense of greek philosophy.
Which is why i lol about orthodox reeee'ing about Mormons, because together they share a significant ammount of beliefs but express them in different language.
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ff8c0e No.835196
>>833266
>I don't know why you guys are so hell bent on excluding us from the body of Christ.
>Yeah we're not "orthodox" in the Nicene sense, but not all Christians are Nicene Christians.
If you think the Trinity is the only thing keeping the LDS in a different category, you need to think a little harder on this one. There are more major doctrinal differences than I can think of off the top of my head.
Your religion comes from a modern revelation (first by Joseph Smith, then subsequent prophets) that creates radical changes to the faith on par with those introduced by Mohammed, which also claimed to be the continuation of revelation given by God and compatible with true Christianity. (Mormonism is even more fanciful than Islam, if I'm being perfectly honest.) All of the new writings and doctrinss that were introduced constitute something fundementally, radically different from historical Christianity.
A few doctrines that differ in Mormonism from historical Christianity, apart from the Trinity:
Salvation
Damnation
Heaven
Marriage
The Gospel
The Atonement
The nature of God (that God the Father was once a man, like us)
<I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know…that he was once a man like us…. (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol. 6, 305-307, emphasis added)
And then there are some wonderful new ideas that have since been introduced:
https://carm.org/mormonism/law-of-eternal-progression
In Mormonism, all humans incarnated, not just Jesus.
In Mormonism, Satan will eventually repent and be reconciled to God, as will all unbelievers.
In Mormonism, men can become gods.
All of that is just the tip of the iceberg.
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657f68 No.835201
>>835196
<I am going to tell you how God came to be God.
That's the lie of satan right there.
>And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
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d4a118 No.835227
>>835196
Do you really think God, The Father, was once a man? Are you referring to Jesus (Since the word God means lord)? And if so do you not believe that Jesus was with God since the beginning? The only way I can somewhat clean up what you said is if you are under the impression that Jesus gained lordship after his sacrifice on earth. Even then your words are iffy. Even before Jesus came to earth he was the one who built everything around us under the command of the Father, I would call him a God even then. What your saying is very confusing, please elaborate. People here can tell you I’m very confusing but what your saying confuses even me and I’m not dismissing you yet only because I find myself in the same position time to time. Explain please.
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c0f685 No.835329
>but not all Christians are Nicene Christians.
lol
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4eb32a No.835331
>>833266
>I don't know why you guys are so hell bent on excluding us from the body of Christ
Well, I certainly am not. The question is: Why are you?
Leave Mormonism and come back to the body of Christ, that is my simple message to you.
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ccbccb No.835333
Mormons are polytheistic, not christian.
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9769ce No.835349
>>835227
I feel like you didn't actually read my post. I'm obviously not a Mormon.
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d4a118 No.835363
>>835349
Yeah I was confused when I saw it, that’s why I came at it with caution. “Do you really think…”. It wasn’t obvious to me because it’s becoming a confused web. By bad. I’m glad I didn’t go full retard on the matter. I had to ask. Nice to know you don’t believe in that mess.
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