1618ec No.833055
Cathodox bros, what is the traditional
on intercourse for purposes other than procreation in marriage, provided that
1. The heterosexual couple is married, both in the Church, and otherwise celibate
2. The conception of children is not avoided, but, for whatever practical reason like finances for food, clothing, schooling etcetera, or age, limited, past a certain point
So, let's say, ideally, if a man and a woman are married for 10 years and 10 children are , but a woman is still fertile, is it unlawful in this scenario for the couple to use contraceptive measures such as condoms/NFP?
____________________________
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7a8e5b No.833072
>>833055
Catholicism doesn't allow contraception except "Natural Family Planning" aka NFP.
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7775da No.833074
>>833055
>is it unlawful in this scenario for the couple to use contraceptive measures such as condoms/NFP?
yes
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9066e6 No.833075
>>833055
For more practical reasons, if you wear a rubber with your wife you might aswell cut your nuts off. Alternatively hormonal birth control is objectively horrible for a woman's body.
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53b6a3 No.833077
>>833075
Castration isn't reversible
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799540 No.833079
>>833055
Reminder that Catholic sexual ethics are based off of pagan philosophy, mainly Stoicism. It is not based on scripture.
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3e1908 No.833080
Contraception is forbidden although there is a strong liberal theme of pretending that is not the case.
Fr Trenham briefly mentions this prohibition in an article of his (http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/frjosiah_sexualrelations.aspx). At the time when the pope of Rome condemned contraception, Constantinople endorsed this ban as patristic but since then they seem to have backtracked. Metropolitan Kallistos (Timothy) Ware apparently wrote in early editions of his book The Orthodox Church that it is banned and then in later editions says that there is no doctrine either way. (I'd have to check to confirm this.) Here are also a few more articles mentioning it:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/roc_bioethics.aspx
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/orthodoxchristianmarriage.aspx
One final and very important thing: Later generation "birth control" pills are not in reality contraceptives. They induce a miscarriage shortly after conception and are falsely advertised abortions.
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835719 No.833081
>>833079
"Men who are not wantons or immoral are bound to consider sexual intercourse justified only when it occurs in marriage and is indulged in for the purpose of begetting children, since that is lawful, but unjust and unlawful when it is mere pleasure-seeking, even in marriage. 3But of all sexual relations those involving adultery are most unlawful, and no more tolerable are those of men with men, because it is a monstrous thing and contrary to nature."
https://sites.google.com/site/thestoiclife/the_teachers/musonius-rufus/lectures/12
Sex only in the context of marriage and homosexuality being contrary to nature is just truth, doenst matter if a pagan says it or a Christian. Its something you can deduce through reason.
Regardless to say modern 'stoics' just pretend Musonius Rufus doesnt exist.
And how is this stoic quote not in line with scripture?
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937a26 No.833087
>stoicism
>pagan
Say what now?
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53b6a3 No.833089
>>833081
You're not getting the criticism
>>833087
Yes, literally
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937a26 No.833128
>>833089
>Stoicism is pagan
Explain your claim
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a82e9b No.833132
>>833128
I'm not him but from my understanding, "Stoicism" refers to two related things.
1) The practise of controlling one's emotions and other helpful practises (I think of this as "Stoicism-lite")
2) The beliefs of the actual Stoics who genuinely believed in their own explanation for how the Universe works. (I think of this as "actual" Stoicism)
Most people who say they're adopting Stoicism typically don't mean 2. What they typically mean is 1. I believe a quick look on Wikipedia would reveal to you what the Stoics believed.
I think you're aware of 1 and completely unaware of 2 so the claim that Stoicism is pagan is a bit of a shock but I think this is what's going on.
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53b6a3 No.833133
>>833128
It's a school of philosophy that's incompatible with Christianity
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7a8e5b No.833141
>>833133
no it comes from natural law the applied ethics of scholasticism, that is, baptized platonism and aristotelianism.
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53b6a3 No.833142
>>833141
That's not coherent
Natural law is a concept
Applied ethics is ethicism
Scholasticism is medieval
You really don't have to draw lines of causal relationship, just look at stoicism and look at biblical Christianity. They contradict in key areas and overlap in others.
The point being argued was that Catholic theology imports stoic ideas around sex, like sex being inherently vulgar. We had a thread about this about a month ago.
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f1ee90 No.833146
>>833087
Protestants call anything remotely in common with a pagan religion, pagan.
So if the some group of pagans were stoics then all stoics are pagans. It's a logical fallacy, similarly to chickens are birds so all birds are chickens, that is used to smear Catholics because Catholics shun worldly pleasures and don't mind a little adversity in this life.
Never mind that pagans were also hedonist.
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53b6a3 No.833147
>>833146
This is a fallacy called strawman where you misrepresent the argument
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f1ee90 No.833148
>>833147
Then state your argument clearly and concisely.
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53b6a3 No.833149
>>833148
Stoicism is pagan
Roman catholicism imports some stoic ideas
This is a bad thing
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f1ee90 No.833152
>>833149
>Roman catholicism imports some stoic ideas
No, The Lord Jesus Christ told us to reject sin, give up wealth, and follow him. Sandals, robe and walking stick. Sounds pretty stoic.
Now it's clear that I did not strawman your argument at all, you just didn't like your logical fallacy being pointed out.
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53b6a3 No.833155
>>833152
Those are not stoic ideas imported into Catholic thinking like we're talking about
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71334a No.833157
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
>Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:159
>Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
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