/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>832648

And so many more verses in the NT with a similar message. Faith without works is dead, the narrow way, etc. When I was 7 my VBS Baptist teacher literally told me I was going to heaven because in that moment I said yes, I believe in Jesus and want him to come into my heart. Ridiculous. This is why Christianity is so failing in the west.

There are “Christians” who actually believe that all sins can be committed, since they will all be forgiven anyway. They think Jesus loves them and knows them because they said a prayer once. It’s so sad

>>832648

>And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Where is the challenge for osas in this passage

>>832650

>Faith without works is dead, the narrow way, etc.

>They think Jesus loves them and knows them because they said a prayer once. It’s so sad

This is easy believism and antinomianism, not osas

>>832651

Jesus speaks of a narrow gate AND a narrow way. You don’t have to just enter in at the strait gate, but also follow the narrow way. OSAS is dangerous when people believe that they are saved, because that means that they can’t lose their salvation, meaning they can sin as much as they want. So either you believe you’re saved, and see the rest of your life as meaningless, or you believe you’re not saved, which makes you wonder, when will I be saved? It makes no sense that anyone would be permanently saved, anyway. You can certainly offend the Spirit by sin until it’s presence leaves you. Now if the argument is that a saved person will not commit dangerous sin, then that’s different. But that is just affirming that we need to always be mindful of our sin, else our actions might seem to indicate that we are not saved.

>>832654

>OSAS is dangerous when people believe that they are saved, because that means that they can’t lose their salvation, meaning they can sin as much as they want

Non sequitur

>>832655

Naming a fallacy alone is meaningless. Explain how I’m using the fallacy. If people believe they are saved, and they believe OSAS, then it follows that they believe they will always be saved. From there it follows that they believe nothing that they or anyone else does will take away their salvations. Otherwise, OSAS isn’t necessarily true.

>>832656

Because y doesn't necessarily follow x

>>832658

fallacy fallacy, I win

>>832654

>OSAS is dangerous when people believe that they are saved, because that means that they can’t lose their salvation, meaning they can sin as much as they want.

It is possible for people to believe they are saved for the wrong reasons, that still doesn't invalidate the fact it is possible to know you are saved for the right reason and it be legitimate.

>You don’t have to just enter in at the strait gate, but also follow the narrow way.

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

It's not about you putting in enough effort, it's about God working in his elect. In the epistle to Philippi the apostle Paul said this: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

>So either you believe you’re saved, and see the rest of your life as meaningless, or you believe you’re not saved, which makes you wonder, when will I be saved?

And here is a false dichotomy, because you haven't proven that people who believe they are saved for the right reasons see their life as meaningless. Only people who might think that for the wrong reasons who like 1 John 2:19 states will eventually make manifest they were never saved. As the Apostle John says there, "if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us."

>It makes no sense that anyone would be permanently saved, anyway.

So I guess you're denying what the Lord Jesus said when he said whosoever believeth shall not come into condemnation.

John 5:24

>Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You are saying that some of the people being spoken of here might later come into condemnation despite what Jesus just infallibly stated. Also, none of what you said before this sentence helps your point, as I already proved above.

>Now if the argument is that a saved person will not commit dangerous sin, then that’s different.

It's not for you to decide what that is. Nevertheless, God did warn us to beware of false prophets in his word, and that by their fruit we shall know them. He also tells us to "try the spirits whether they be of God" in 1 John 4:1. We are therefore not to believe the claims of what is visibly a false professor, and we should impartially find out who is adhering to God's word and who isn't; not have respect of persons for instance by only listening to rich or powerful people, etc. Judge them by their fruits and compare everything they both say and do to Scripture.

>that is just affirming that we need to always be mindful of our sin, else our actions might seem to indicate that we are not saved.

The problem here is trying to base our justification before God in terms of actions we have done and not on the gospel which states that nothing we do can merit our recovery from condemnation, only the work of Christ on the cross and faith in him, by his grace, as he said in his word will be seen in God's eyes as providing that justification. This is according to what the Scripture actually says.

>>832651

>Where is the challenge for osas in this passage

<dude I'm saved

<source: bro trust me

<sins all day every day (works iniquity) while professing to be a christian

<"depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

OSAS also tend to claim that OSAS, but if you disagree with them or leave their Churchianity you're not longer saved. To them, it doesn't matter if you've brutally raped, tortured, and eaten thousands of children personally if you were once saved when you were 12 years old. You could even deny Jesus, join a satanic witch occult, and torture Christians in hate according to OSAS but still be saved. But then they'll say "oh, well, that means they were never saved". Yet, how can you depart from the faith if you were never once saved?

1 Timothy 4:1

>Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Matthew 7:21

>Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 8:31-32

>Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

>Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

>Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Galatians 5:19-21

>Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It's basically a cult, where someone "saved" can "sin every day in word, thought, and deed" and still think they're saved while working iniquity or sinning all the time and denying God's Word and persecuting anyone who spreads God's Word as "heretics" to their cult. If you do something to step over "their line" (not God's line set in His Word) or not pass their judgement then you're no longer saved, even though they profess OSAS and even if they said you were once saved for joining their Churchianity. It seems to be a side-effect of John 3:16 full-stop preachers, but taken to the next step, instead of only belief getting you into heaven (if that were true: satan, his angels, and satanists would get into heaven), you only have to believe at one time to get saved then you have a license to sin – which is completely unbiblical. Jesus didn't say "I have come to give a license to sin (…unless you annoy a OSAS preacher)".

>>832687

Stop.

Read this post carefully.

Once saved always saved does not mean license to sin. It means "once saved, always saved".

You are providing a good argument that those living in sin are not saved. Both sides agree on this.

The unrepentant people in your examples either had salvation and lost it (arminian, Wesleyan, Roman Catholic view) or they were never saved in the first place (osas).

>>832703

>they were never really saved because they sinned

>but OSAS and you can sin after being saved

Which is it?

>>832705

That's something else called Christian perfectionism like in the holiness movement. Osas doesn't mean incapable of sinning, and most non osas don't think that either

>>832707

>holiness movement

I didn't know Christ's own words were part of some "holiness movement" and not just part of Christianity or following Christ.

Matthew 5:38

>Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=oGp_p8vScYo

>>832709

cool

Do you understand my clarification, how the picture of osas you're presenting is a strawman?

>>832710

It's devoid of logic and full of mental gymnastics as you've shown. It's in the same field as calvinism in denying the Word of God.

>>832687

It means they never were saved, this ain't hard to understand.

Read my above post regarding antinomianism with regards to the rest of your objections. It sounds like you have a problem with the sovereignty of God and the predestination of His elect.

There is hope yet for Methodists, Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics seeing eye to eye one day, because of this. But not possible with anyone else. They are literally preaching an entirely different Gospel and an entirely different Jesus that isn't in the Bible.

This is the most severe rift in the Church, as far as I'm concerned.

>>832709

>Matthew 5:38

The only way to do that is to be saved with the righteousness of God imputed unto you. That's the whole point. See Matthew 19:25-26.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

>but OSAS and you can sin after being saved

What do you mean by "you can sin"? I think you just gave an intentionally vague statement. Do you mean sinning is tolerated, the answer is no. Do you mean it is possible that someone might sin (i.e. they are not sinless) despite being saved, the answer is yes. Because even the Apostle Paul said as much in Romans chapter 7,

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And because as the Apostle says also in 1 John 1—

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And also the book of Hebrews given by the apostles says this:

5 My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

>instead of only belief getting you into heaven (if that were true: satan, his angels, and satanists would get into heaven)

James 2:19 simply says they believe that there is one God. Even heathen religions like Judaism do that. That is not acknowledging that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. You can't use that as an example. It's highly dishonest of you to try.

>>832713

>It's in the same field as calvinism

What does that have to do with anything in this thread?

>>832761

>They are literally preaching an entirely different Gospel and an entirely different Jesus that isn't in the Bible.

Yes, the Arminian Methodists, Arminian Anglicans, and those other state churches are preaching an entirely different Gospel and an entirely different Jesus that isn't in the Bible. You are right about that.

You also have good insight that this is the most severe dividing line, because as the Apostles tell us,

Galatians 1:9

>As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Your insight regarding the severity of this rift is accurate. However, there is no "universal Church" concept, that was simply an invention of the state church under Constantine. It is not found anywhere in the Bible, nor is their false god that makes mistakes by giving and then taking away his gift. They should get right with God immediately and stop preaching a false Jesus before they suffer damnation in the fires of hell.

>>832759

You're not really proposing Calvinism. You forget about Total Depravity. In this system, you're only saved by Grace through Faith. Nothing more. People are deemed absolutely worthless otherwise. And sadly, so is God's grace. It's incapable of doing anything but salvation in a predetermined moment of time. Not carrying out a process of holiness in the believer. They are totally depraved instead.

And this is why there are knuckleheads who've taken it to it's natural conclusion: "Once saved, always saved." If you want to get away from it, you must drop Calvinism. It only leads down that path.

>>832765

>Yes, the Arminian Methodists, Arminian Anglicans, and those other state churches are preaching an entirely different Gospel and an entirely different Jesus that isn't in the Bible. You are right about that.

You don't engender any productive conversation by twisting my words around to apply to something else. Methodists are following Christ's words more than Calvinists. They're the ones taking him seriously when he said: "If you love me, obey my commandments." - John 14:15

While Calvinists keep relying on an outside systematic theology, shutting their ears at passages like that, and merely declaring that everyone else is not following scripture. If you want to play dumb, go right ahead. You're completely unteachable and stubborn. But don't twist others' words around.

>>832761

I also like how you bring absolutely zero scripture passages to support your outlandish claims.

>>832768

>Methodists are following Christ's words more than Calvinists.

I'm not a Calvinist. This presents a false dichotomy.

>You're completely unteachable and stubborn. But don't twist others' words around.

You made a slip of the tongue and spoke the truth, that's all.

>>832769

Because the thread has already been going on for awhile. What needs to be added to it? People have already mentioned the words of Jesus throughout the gospels. I did my own little part myself a little later and quoted John 14:15. Yet even that little amount of scripture is completely unlistenable to a Calvinist's or a Baptist's ears. People have been showing you the example of the whole Gospel throughout your life, and all of that is unlistenable as well. As I just said in an earlier post: You're unteachable. You do not care that Christ spent the bulk of his life giving out teachings and commandments. You just talk about abstract soteriological theories and "plans of salvation" and ignore anything. I barely care to even interact at this point, because it's all been said. I'm mostly here to talk to Orthodox and Catholics. Not you.

>>832771

What are you talking about? I wasn't pointing out a specific commandment in the first place. It's the fact that Jesus gave commandments at all is what I'm pointing out. Anyone who holds to "Sola Fide" doesn't take Christ's words here seriously. That isn't Methodists, Orthodox, or Catholics. They would all take Christ seriously here. That isn't any ancient church either. It's nothing but Lutherans and Calvinists and their successors who dismiss the notion of commandments. They only hold up Grace Alone through Faith Alone.

Now you want to be a weasel and not admit to it. You're trying to have your cake and to it eat too. I think you all realize how stupid your whole theology is, and fully know that it leads to "Once Saved, Always Saved" beliefs, but you're trying to save face and play games by rationalizing that isn't what it actually is. You're not even proud of your own beliefs and now trying to act like something else.

>>832773

Well, I've given you all the information regarding the issues you tried to raise. I've responded to the earlier posts you referred to in my initial posts as well. This is the part that I am capable of playing in this conversation.

>What needs to be added to it?

There is plenty more to discuss right now with the time and space that graciously has been given to us. Jesus said: "for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come."

Come, let us reason together and arrive at the thoroughly Biblical truth. For Christ said in John 17:17 that "thy word is truth."

>You do not care that Christ spent the bulk of his life giving out teachings and commandments.

What teaching and commandment are you thinking of right now? Are you pointing to my life and telling me which commandment it is I am breaking?

>You just talk about abstract soteriological theories

Direct Biblical passages are not abstract theories! Please tell me what I've said regarding this subject that is without Biblical support.

>and "plans of salvation"

I never said anything of the sort. You seem to be reacting to a phantom that doesn't exist.

>and ignore anything.

I would never ignore someone who was actually serious about this. Never! The Apostle Paul reminds us, "if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost".

>>832773

>>832775

God loves you, anon.

>>832703

>Once Saved Always Saved does not mean license to sin

It does as Pastor Steven Anderson says, if you don't pray to God and even choose to reject him after you are Saved, you are still Saved.

Saying that people who act unrepentant after they claim to be Saved are never Saved to begin with is not OSAS because that still make repentance, enduring faith and good works necessary, even if those are not the efficient cause of your Salvation or aren't part of Justification. Those are still effects which are necessary which means you can't act as if one is already Always Saved.

This is also why Reformed Perseverance of Saints should never be considered OSAS because that doctrine still make works and repentance necessary even if those arent justification itself.

>>832764

>What does that have to do with anything in this thread?

Why don't you continue reading that partial quote and you'll see how. Don't just stop halfway through the sentence, I know you can read the whole thing.

>>832650

But he does know them and he does love them, just because they're not gonna go to heaven doesn't mean he is careless.

>>832823

>I never knew you. Depart me me, ye who work iniquity.

Was Judas saved according to the Protestants? Can you be a disciple and then sell out Jesus for silver and still go to heaven?

Catholics don't believe in once saved, always saved. We believe, per the Bible, in confession and repenting.

>>832873

Did Judas steal from them constantly? Yes. Was Judas then saved? The Bible talks about what happens to theives.

Question: you lived your whole life good, but then someone comes up and kills your child, you then cuss at him and are shot dead by the individual, do you go to heaven? You didn't have time to repent. Your own words would seem to condemn you.

>>832877

Did you just refute once saved always saved?

So, once saved always saved is refuted.

Thanks.

>>832878

Your reading comprehension could use some work. Maybe that's why Catholics struggle?

Judas was never saved.

God is a good God and wants you to know whether you're saved or not v

>>832880

I asked a question, you misread it as a statement because it showed a contradiction between the belief in "Once saved always saved" and the Bible.

Then you rationalized this conflict by telling a lie about my reading comprehension.

Try to be a better person, Anon. This is about discussion and not flame wars and childish insults.

>>832921

You are insufferable and we know you're doing it on purpose

>>832648

>How can anyone honestly believe in this lunacy?

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea. I subscribe to it myself. But, I'm also of the belief that if you are saved, your actions and behavior will reflect it. That is, if you're saved, you're not going to run around cheating, stealing, lying, etc. And I don't think that you can necessarily fall away from the Christian faith if you are truly saved. Because if you do fall away, then the faith wasn't there to begin with. Someone who is saved is going to strive to become a more Christ-like person and do their best to abstain from sin. It's a constant struggle we partake in our entire lives.

>>832921

>John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

>71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

>John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

>>832922

Honestly, I have to remind myself Catholics aren't all this bad or arrogant.

>>832944

Consider the possibility it's a false flag

>>832947

I used to go on amino. There was a kid who was equally insufferable and arrogant and called himself a Catholic.

>>832922

Why then, did Christ pick Judas for an apostle? Attacking me because of your cognitive dissonance is not a rational response. Don't blame me because your pro-sin beliefs cannot be defended.

>>832959

It can be, but there's a verse for this situation and specifically you Matthew 7:6.