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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 29547fbaf6965a2⋯.png (701.56 KB, 1524x1800, 127:150, timeline.png)

3b7986  No.832500[Last 50 Posts]

OC for the ignorant who point to fag enabler "protestants" as if it's an argument

thanks for your attention

____________________________
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0cfdd9  No.832501

>>832500

thanks for this.

How does protestantism work in practice? It seems like a tall order for a average layman to interpret the bible accurately.

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3b7986  No.832505

File: 7042af6b8fafa7a⋯.png (1.14 MB, 971x720, 971:720, you_right_now.png)

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5be38f  No.832506

>>832501

Not all Protestants dismiss tradition. The English Reformation definitely did/does not (Methodists, Anglicans, etc). "Prima scriptura" rather than "Sola scriptura".

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3b7986  No.832508

>>832506

"tradition" has never meant viewing the church as having a teaching role, and no protestant movement has ever rejected this

It's just kind of a low iq non sequitur that rejecting rome -> subjectivism -> radical democratization of theology, vaguely related to the protestant emphasis on the perspictuity of scripture

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4b0556  No.832512

>>832501

>It seems like a tall order for a average layman to interpret the bible accurately.

Imagine thinking God was incapable of writing a book his people could understand.

The catholic church used to burn the Bible and punish anyone who read it or let their children read it. Yet they claim to be the true church.

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3b7986  No.832517

>>832512

>disagreeing with me means believing God isn't all powerful

don't argue like this

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4b0556  No.832518

>>832517

>strawman quote

Don't argue like this

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5be38f  No.832519

>>832508

I think some Protestants are inclined to radical anti-ecclesiastical views. And as a result, became dismissive of church history as a side effect. They're insular and their only sense of history goes back a hundred or two hundred years. To them, the "ancient church" is Spurgeon. And "ancient hymns" are Amazing Grace. Not Phos Hilaron. Radical to the point that they think it's "exotic" to read Chrysostom or Basil. This was never the behavior of the main Reformers or Revivalists of any stripe.. everyone from Luther to Calvin to Cranmer to Wesley all quoted the ancient church. But the radical Protestant strain would dismiss this as well.

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3b7986  No.832523

>>832519

>dismissive of church history

>They're insular and their only sense of history goes back a hundred or two hundred years

I can tell you're looking from the outside. Church history is a major hot topic, especially among reformed circles

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8c3ea2  No.832524

File: 277f667f329a9b8⋯.png (55.15 KB, 708x468, 59:39, Screenshot_2020_05_01_Hist….png)

>>832500

Your graphic shows a split between the LCMS and ELCA dates back to 1715? I don't think that's true.

https://www.elca.org/About/History

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3b7986  No.832525

>>832524

>catholic reading comprehension

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8c3ea2  No.832527

>>832505

This is … ironic, given the number of protestant denominations out there, each focused on a tiny bit of scripture and ignoring the rest that they disagree with e.g. "faith alone" is seen, "by their works you shall know them" is ignored.

>>832512

God became man in the flesh to teach us. If a book was all that was needed, he would have sent it to us FedEx.

Stop it with the "all we need is the book" meme. That's straight out of Islam.

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5be38f  No.832528

>>832523

I'm not on the outside. And I just gave credit to the Reformers. They weren't radical. Even German Evangelicals in went to war with this clowns, sadly. They've been a thorn in the side of the Reformation from the beginning and are just as nasty as the Catholics who burned bible translators.

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3b7986  No.832529

>>832528

No I mean the reformed circles today

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5be38f  No.832530

>>832529

Ah, well you're right there. But I know I can actually dialogue with Reformed/Calvinist about this church history at least.. to this day. I didn't have them in mind, and they aren't exactly what I'd call radical. Puritans were, but they don't really exist.. outside some LARPers.

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4b0556  No.832531

>>832527

>God became man in the flesh to teach us. If a book was all that was needed, he would have sent it to us FedEx.

FedEx didn't exist 1989 years ago. And a book isn't a sacrifice for remission of sins. You're as intellectually dishonest as the average catholic on /christian/. You catholics also never quote scripture to back up any of your arguments (probably because the Vatican hates the bible).

Thomas Moore tortured and killed many people in London. Their crime? They owned a Bible in English. Worse yet, the Vatican made him a Saint in the last century. And then in the year 2000 Pope John Paul II made him the patron Saint of politicians.

"The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity." -The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, "Protestantism", Section III A - Sola Scriptura ("Bible Alone"), Nihil Obstat, February 1, 1912 by Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor, Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York. (online source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm )

"Unfortunately many of these books were lost during the persecution of the 17th century, and only those books and ancient documents sent to the libraries of Cambridge and Geneva by Pastor Leger were preserved. The Papists took care, after every persecution, to destroy as much of the Waldensean literature as possible. Many of the Barbes were learned men and well versed in the languages and science of the Scriptures. A knowledge of the Bible was the distinctive feature of the ancient, and now the modern Vaudois. Deprived for centuries of a visible church and forced to worship in caves and dens, this intimate knowledge of God's word was their only light. Their school was in the almost inaccessible solitude of the deep mountain gorge called 'Pra Del Tor', and their studies were severe and long-continued, embracing the Latin, Romaunt and Italian languages."-Bompiani - A Short History of the Italian Waldenses

Their refusal to surrender the scriptures was an offense that the Papacy could not tolerate. The Papacy was determined to exterminate the heretics from the face of the Earth. The heretics greatest offense, was that they refused to worship God according to the will of the Pope. For this crime, the heretics suffered every humiliation, insult and torture that man could event: ( Fox's Book Of Martyrs)

1) Hanged and their genitals were cut off

2) The mothers were whipped

3) The women's breast were ripped off

4) They were tied up and fried in a large pan

5) Their mouths were sewed shut

6) They were placed into a pot of boiling water

7) Their arms and legs were cut off

8) Some had their eyes bored out

(Rev.) Dr. Cahill declared that "he would rather the Catholic should read the worst books of immorality than the Protestant Bible-that forgery of God's Word, that slander of Christ." - (Roman Catholic Tablet, December 17, 1853, p. 804).

"Do you allow your flock to read the Bible at all?" said a writer in the Contemporary Review to a friend of his, a parish priest. "No, sir, I do not; you forget that I am a physician, not a poisoner of souls." -Contemporary Review April, 1894, p. 576.

"The doctrines of the Catholic Church are entirely independent of Holy Scripture." Familiar Explanation of Catholic Doctrine, Rev. M. Muller, p.151.

The decree set forth in the year 1229 A.D. by the Council of Valencia… places Bible on The Index of Forbidden Books. The doctrine withholds "it is forbidden for laymen (common man) to read the Old and New Testaments. - We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out." Council Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229

The church Council of Tarragona ruled that: "No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after the promulgation of this decree, so they may be burned." D. Lortsch, Histoire de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.

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4b0556  No.832532

>>832531

"Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies… pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means." The encyclical Quanta Cura Issued by Pope Pius IX, December 6, 1866

"The Bible does not pretend to be a formulary of belief, as in a creed or catechism. There is nowhere in the New Testament a clear, methodical statement of the teaching of Christ" -Question Box, p. 66

"The very nature of the Bible ought to prove to any thinking man the impossibility of its being the one safe method to find out what the Savior taught." Ibid., p. 67

…It was well for Luther that he did not come into the world until a century after the immortal invention of Gutenberg. A hundred years earlier his idea of directing two hundred and fifty million men to read the Bible would have been received with shouts of laughter, and would inevitably have caused his removal from the pulpit of Wittenburg to a hospital for the insane." -The Faith of Our Fathers, p. 69; see also The Faith of Millions, p. 152

"Again it has ever been practically impossible for men, generally, to find out Christ from the Bible only." -Question Box, p. 70

"…The Bible nowhere implies that it is the only source of faith." -Ibid., p. 77

"The Scriptures indeed is a divine book but it is a dead letter, which has to be explained, and cannot exercise the action which the preacher can obtain." -Our Priesthood, p. 155

"…A dead and speechless book." -Question Box, p. 67

"The simple fact is that the Bible, like all dead letters, calls for a living interpreter." -The Faith of Millions, p. 155

"The Bible was not intended to be a textbook of Christian religion." -Catholic Facts, p. 50

>Stop it with the "all we need is the book" meme. That's straight out of Islam.

The Catholic church declares the Bible not a textbook for the Christian faith? I do believe the following verses have proven the Roman Catholic church has been caught red handed telling bold face lies. This not only proves they lied, it also exposes WHY they preach the Bible is "…a dead and speechless book." They hope to keep the masses out of the Bible mainly because once they open one, they realize who the liar truly is.

The Bible declares it teaches…

All necessary things which Jesus did - Acts 1:1-2

Certainty of His action and teaching - Luke 1:3-4

Life in the name of Jesus - John 20:30-31

Instructions to salvation - 2 Tim. 3:15

Commands of the Lord - 1 Cor. 14:37

The proper conduct - 1 Tim. 3:14-15

Every good work - 2 Tim. 3:16-17

Protection against sin - 1 John 2:1

An assurance of eternal life - 1 John 5:13

Standard by which teachers are tested - Acts 17:11

Standard which we cannot go beyond - 1 Cor. 4:6

Blessings from God - Rev. 1:3

Joy that is complete - 1 John 1:3-4

Standard of judgment - Rev. 20:12

Hebrews - 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

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3b7986  No.832537

File: 5d9b1e6a80b65f1⋯.png (188.14 KB, 800x400, 2:1, a_particularly_inane_nucat….png)

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8c3ea2  No.832538

File: fbbe980e41bfe38⋯.png (15.66 KB, 678x147, 226:49, Screenshot_2020_05_01_Matt….png)

>>832537

If your religion doesn't matter, become Catholic.

I honestly don't get protestants. The pick and choose what they want from the Bible, throw out 7 books, ignore the Church established by God, and say they can willingly disobey God yet are saved. No…

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5be38f  No.832539

>>832538

God didn't establish a Church that killed people with fire, simply for translating the bible. There's only one kind of "church" that has such a hatred for God's word that it murders people over it.

Your church has committed atrocities and crimes on such a grotesque level that it has embittered people indefinitely against them. If you want to consider them lost, go right ahead - but blame yourselves first. It's your own fault that they are lost then. They wouldn't be so frightened if they hadn't been threatened in the first place. Cause and effect.

And it will continue this way because you're incapable of being anything but smug and unapologetic. It's always about you and how great you are instead.

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8c3ea2  No.832541

>>832539

>God didn't establish a Church that killed people with fire, simply for translating the bible.

Where did I say God did? (I didn't say he didn't either)

And the catholics wrote the Bible to begin with.

Once again you're implicitly claiming that there were no sinners in the Protestant faith with this "whataboutism".

Where did I act smug? Because I said I don't understand how you can have conflicting beliefs like that?

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5efd10  No.832546

>>832538

>If your religion doesn't matter,

How in the world did you get that out of what was said

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2b38a6  No.832553

>He doesn't go for the best of Protestantism which is the Old High Church Caroline Divines

Deeply disappoint

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4b0556  No.832642

File: 858d0563e821a2e⋯.png (3.22 MB, 2880x1800, 8:5, 1580037361160.png)

File: 240c5ee757b19ec⋯.png (776.99 KB, 1904x809, 1904:809, 1580023081006.png)

>>832539

Don't waste your time, he's probably some boy-raping pedophile from Rome.

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8c3ea2  No.832664

>>832642

Are you in the least bit repentant for this false witness against me? yes, Catholics can sin, and clearly so can you.

>>832546

>How in the world did you get that out of what was said

From your graphic with all the different protestant founders (not of them the Lord) who say "Sola Fide", Faith alone. If only faith matters, then what does denomination matter? Or are you saying the protestants aren't replying to the Priest? I see where your meme isn't really a cohearant argument and can be taken different ways. I took it as a rebuttal.

tl:dr maybe actually say what you mean.

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5efd10  No.832665

>>832664

>If only faith matters, then what does denomination matter?

False dichotomy

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4b0556  No.832690

>>832664

>waaah false witness

I said "probably", retard. Why don't you reply to my posts exposing your false cult religion instead of crying about your false commandments of men?

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8c3ea2  No.832695

>>832690

You absolutely cannot be civil and constantly lie about Catholics.

False witness and unrepentant.

>>832665

No seriously, is this a question of the meaning of the word faith? You can't just throw out a non-sentence and pretend it is sensible.

If by faith you mean faith in a particular denomination, then your graphic is wrong. If you mean faith in Christ, saying "Lord Lord", then it's wrong again.

I have one protestant brother who can't form sentences and another who can't do anything but hateful lies.

I'm not going to respond to this kind of bad faith trolling where they don't seek honest engagement.

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5efd10  No.832706

>>832695

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to be as simple as possible.

You are not making an argument, and it's apparently because you do not follow the point. Please do not interpret me as condescending.

A false dichotomy is when you're seeing a tension that isn't there. It is not a contradiction for Protestants to agree on primary issues but form separate denominations on secondary issues yet affirm each other's salvation.

You are all over this board angry posting along with the fundie angryposter and it is really obnoxious. Go start a blog.

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4b0556  No.832708

File: c5cc9e5b46f92d7⋯.png (606.33 KB, 1000x641, 1000:641, c5cc9e5b46f92d78d9bfef615b….png)

File: 74596bdad2a8020⋯.jpg (830.84 KB, 1300x900, 13:9, 1580026383381.jpg)

File: 3b00f092d9c4c0a⋯.jpg (413.39 KB, 437x777, 437:777, keyholeVatican.jpg)

File: 9d61863085d8ccb⋯.jpg (17.71 KB, 181x250, 181:250, wheel_pagan3.jpg)

>>832695

Not lying about catholics, you're just a brainwashed cultist. Why don't you read a Bible and history book that wasn't sanitized by Rome?

For example Catholics deny paganism in their church, but that disagrees with their own leaders. Point out paganism in RCC and they cry "waaah false witness" in a fit of cognitive dissonance rage. I'm sure they truly believe there is no paganism in their church, but that just means they're dumb and don't study anything that wasn't spoonfed them by their cult leaders.

<"It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans…Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds…." (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942)

<The retention of the old pagan name of Dies Solis, for Sunday is, in a great measure, owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects - pagan and Christian alike - as the 'venerable' day of the sun." -Arthur P. Stanley, History of the Eastern Church, p. 184

<"It has often been charged… that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that accusation - and even to make it her boast… the great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized" -The Story of Catholicism p 37

<"In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

<"The Church did everything it could to stamp out such 'pagan' rites, but had to capitualet and allow the rites to continue with only the name of the local diety changed to some Christian saint's name." -Religious Tradition and Myth. Dr. Edwin Goodenough, Professor of Religion, Harvard University. p. 56, 57

<In Stanley's History, page 40: "The popes filled the place of the vacant emperors at Rome, inheriting their power, their prestige, and their titles from PAGANISM."

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bb4b24  No.832719

>>832708

Besides Stanley's history being impossible to google.

>cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

>Altay-Nimalaya, the book written by Nicholas Roerich, about his New Age travels to Tibet

>Roerich, the russian esoteric teosophical cult leader

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4b0556  No.832720

>>832719

>I can't find it on google so it doesn't exist

Good goyim still using antichrist google.

>his statements are irrelevant because he's a cult leader

So everything the Pope says is irrelevant too then?

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bb4b24  No.832722

>>832720

>I can't find it on google so it doesn't exist

Well, yeah.

If your book is impossible to prove it exsts, it's value is null.

You could pass a link with it's content, if you are so certain to prove me wrong.

>his statements are irrelevant because he's a cult leader

No, but it does raise massive red flags if your sources for 4th century roman religions is some weirdo's journal about his Himalayan backpacking to find Shambala.

That's besides the obvious that i can't find anything even remotely resembling that phrase in the actual text of the Life of Constantine book:

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/vita-constantine.asp

Also, there is no book called "The Story of Catholicism"

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4b0556  No.832723

File: f2b6790f82f5997⋯.jpg (298.51 KB, 852x692, 213:173, antichrist_google.jpg)

>>832722

>Well, yeah.

Imagine unironically using antichrist google in 2020 and defending it.

>If your book is impossible to prove it exsts, it's value is null.

I didn't say it was a book, but if your whole defense of satanic pagan rome "can't find the source" or attacking the source with ad hominem then you enjoy God's wrath for partaking in her sins, something readily apparent to anyone who isn't a retarded brainwashed cultist.

>roman religions is some weirdo's journal

…the catholic catechisms that contradict the Bible?

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bb4b24  No.832727

>>832723

So you can't prove Stanley's history or The Story of Catholicism exists, or that the Life of Constantine contains that quote.

All i needed to know.

Thanks.

p.s. im not catholic, so your whataboutism doesn't even make sense

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4b0556  No.832728

File: 23d4c1fa06e013c⋯.jpg (83.58 KB, 960x640, 3:2, inwardly_dead_mens_bones.jpg)

>>832727

>whataboutism

There it is.

The brainless useful idiot cry of their stupid logic being called out. I didn't even say "what about", you're just crying a cognitive dissonance rage to explain away facts of this world and satanic churches which follow the traditions of men instead of God's Word and Christ.

>All I needed to know

>Thanks

Dumb arrogant prideful pompous hell-bound sinner in denial.

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bb4b24  No.832731

>>832728

We will talk when you have those 3 things i mentioned.

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4b0556  No.832732

>>832731

You shouldn't even be on /christian/ pagan sinner.

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bb4b24  No.832733

>>832732

Still waiting.

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4b0556  No.832737

>>832733

>/christian/ - pagan traditions of men

Still a prideful pompous subhuman going to hell. I'm sorry you're such a subhuman that you're too stupid to use a proper search engine, but if you can't find it that's your problem, subhuman pagan retard. Enjoy God's wrath and destruction though, pagan retard.

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5efd10  No.832741

>>832733

Stop responding

He already made a thread for this topic

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bb4b24  No.832742

File: f82854813e0c6b7⋯.jpg (9.82 KB, 225x225, 1:1, index.jpg)

>>832737

Not OP, but applicable.

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4b0556  No.832743

>>832742

>I'm retarded and can't find it, the other source is invalid because [character attack]

>use something other than antichrist google

>no, I love antichrist google, why would I use anything else

And you really think this is on me? I cited my sources, just because you're a retarded dumpster baby pagan doesn't invalidate any of them.

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22e8e4  No.832744

>>832743

Which denomination do you go to?

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37b794  No.832745

>>832743

You could find what i asked for via altavista, for all i care.

Ill be waiting here.

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4b0556  No.832750

>>832744

You don't need religion. Religion won't save you. Especially when most religion has gone apostate and wondered after the beast in Rome. All you need today is the living Word of God. There's a reason the catholic church killed people like me and burned Bibles, after all. The Bible exposes their lies and abominations. They'd even cut tongues of those who'd preach and gouge eyes of those who'd read to stop them from spreading the good news.

<"Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies… pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means." The encyclical Quanta Cura Issued by Pope Pius IX, December 6, 1866

>noooo, you can't just read the Bible without religion, reeeeeeeee

Yes, you can.

Deuteronomy 4:29

Psalm 14:2

Proverbs 8:17

Matthew 6:33

Matthew 7:7-8

1 Peter 2:10

2 Timothy 3:16

>>832745

>Ill be waiting here.

You keep waiting, I don't do homework for snot-nosed brats who use logical fallacies and their own incompetence to disregard the truth. I bet you have a bunch of "memes" saved on your computer about the persecution of the saints by Papal Rome that you think are so le ebin k00l.

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37b794  No.832752

>>832750

Ok, sure, man.

Glad that we settled that you dont have the books, and just blindly copy-pasted a bunch of references off a site.

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37b794  No.832753

>>832752

Btw, the Quanta Cura quote is fake, too.

And it was published on December 8th, 1864, not December 6th 1866

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22e8e4  No.832754

>>832750

I thought you were OP who posted some denominations in the original image, my bad.

But I still have a question for you. Imagine a map with three points Alpha, Beta, and Gamma corresponding to three cities - A, B and C respectively.

Now how do you relate the map to the geography? Can one construct a second map of how one ought act in the interpretation of the first map?

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4b0556  No.832785

>>832753

>>832752

Ok cathcult subhuman.

Glad we settled that you subhuman retards are incapable of doing your own research or even abandoning an antichrist search engine.

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37b794  No.832793

>>832785

Cry harder, faggot.

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ee0db8  No.832795

>>832537

Its a checkmate indeed. The fruit of that first rebellion is the proliferation of denominations which that graph and the Op graph doesnt hide.

If i wanted to convert how would i pick the right one, all got different interpretations and theologies.

We are to be one church, not rebellious like that first creature that fell from heaven.

>>832708

bible has 11 thou shalt not. you join women into property, Catholicism joins the having no false gods ones.

What is the vatican key image meant to represent in the anti catholic mindset? I suppose its not about Jesus having given the keys to Peter.

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5efd10  No.832931

>>832500

Barth needs to be removed. He was not a liberal but he was heterodox, while still very important.

Who would go in that place?

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c77d21  No.832979

File: 72be86ffe60e0a6⋯.png (707.36 KB, 1524x1800, 127:150, timeline.png)

Fixed by removing barth as a traditionalist

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8c3ea2  No.832986

>>832979

Pretending that the split between the evangelical Lutherans and the Missouri Synod happened in 1715 is just denying the truth.

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b2efd8  No.833042

>>832795

>how could I pick the right one

To be fair this wouldn't be any easier in the first few centuries, nor during periods of major troubles within churches like the schism and the period of anti-popes, and rejecting protestantism still leaves 3 major church bodies not in communion with one another, maybe 4 or even more if you include sedes. Most Protestants do not define the true church according to adherence to a specific orthodoxy anyways and their view of salvation is different. Technically even Catholics can concede that some non-Catholics may be saved but how this works exactly and who is actually saved has only grown more confused over time.

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3ceac1  No.833125

>>832708

seeing image and comments like these, it makes me happy that I left that cult

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5efd10  No.833134

>>833125

What cult is that?

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5be38f  No.833136

>>832795

They're just names and labels, in many of those cases. In some respects, some groups saw themselves in the same way that Catholics view "orders", where it was just a group of people who simply had a different mission focus. Those who started the Nazarenes, for example, had a focus on the poor that they weren't able to get enough of out of their parent body. In all other respects, they were just Methodists. The Salvation Army was similar (also Methodist, basically). And speaking of Methodists, John Wesley just considered himself an Anglican. He just thought he was reviving more of a focus on other Church Fathers besides Augustine.

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6d202a  No.833165

>>833125

Why would you say that when Roman Catholicism is a saint worshipping cult? Tell me where is any of that in Scripture.

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8c3ea2  No.833175

>>833165

Catholics say don't sin, and if you do confess your sins, pray for grace to resist sin.

Most protestants will have nothing of that. The two biggest founders of Protestantism were Martin "Sin Boldly" Luther and King Henry "Off with her head!" the Eighth.

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5be38f  No.833182

>>833175

I'm not happy with that either. But the Medici and Borgia Popes in their own day were no better. Pope Alexander VI (Luther's time) fathered multiple children from multiple mistresses, was seemingly just as gluttonous as Henry, and allowed the slave trade in the New World, among other things. His own successor (Julius II) said after he became Pope: "I will not live in the same rooms as the Borgias lived. He desecrated the Holy Church as none before." And so did other Popes think after him as well. The very apartments that Alexander resided in remained sealed for centuries.

The fact of the matter is that the church as a whole needed a revival. It wasn't a pretty picture. Even later saints like St. Theresa of Avila saw the need for revival, and did it while remaining Catholic. She said herself that she had a vision of Hell, and that the road to Hell was paved with the bones and skulls of priests and bishops. She didn't paint a pretty picture on her own side.

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8c3ea2  No.833183

>>833182

You're comparing sinners within the dogma, to the dogma.

These sinning Popes you speak of were sinners in the Catholic teaching.

I'm talking about the actual teachings of the faith. Now, you can argue about King Henry being a sinner and creating the Anglican Church out of greed and so he can dictate that divorce is not a sin, but sin boldly? As dogma that is just wrong.

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5be38f  No.833185

>>833183

Well, I'm not a Lutheran or even a "Faith Alone" type of believer in the first place. I'm not going to defend something I don't represent. I'm just trying to paint a big picture of the sickness in the church. If I had to have a label, I'm a Methodist. I don't differ with Catholics on the subject of sanctification. We are called to be holy, without a doubt. I have no clue how Luther came to such a conclusion. The Gospel doesn't free anyone to think like this. It's indefensible even by New Testament standards. Jesus said on multiple occasions to those whom he healed: "Go and sin no more." Never once did I hear him say "Go and sin boldly." That's insane.

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6d202a  No.833187

>>833175

Look, I see you going around accusing people of teaching others to sin. But I never see nor hear anyone teach this. You are just a false accuser, that's all. Puffed up in your own pride, not caring about the consequences of falsely accusing and simply expecting others to tolerate it in every place that you go. Which most will because they actually have some semblance of restraint. But that false accusation itself is a sin, I have to tell you. It's so outlandish that nobody even takes the time to even answer it. It's an accusation so arrogant and unlikely by anyone to be believed, it's not even worth giving the dignity of an answer.

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8c3ea2  No.833212

>>833187

>Look, I see you going around accusing people of teaching others to sin.

Not quite. I go around saying that

Catholics

the Catholics tell you to stop sinning, and use confession as a tool and motivator to achieve the end of sin.

Protestants

Many say "once saved always saved", which doesn't discourage sin at all, or "faith alone" so they can sin and not do good works because they have faith they're saved and this is in error. If you have faith in The Lord, then you will obey him and give up sin and do the good works he tells you to.

Cognitive Bias

I get that this triggers you, but ad homs against me aren't productive.

Instead, try and explain your position.

>>833185

>Well, I'm not a Lutheran or even a "Faith Alone" type of believer in the first place

The problem with discussing anything with protestants is that they can simply say "Well, that's not my belief".

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5be38f  No.833214

>>833212

>The problem with discussing anything with protestants is that they can simply say "Well, that's not my belief".

I don't even know why you're discussing anything in the first place tbh. The thread is about conservative and liberal Protestant movements.

But to answer this, it's because there were multiple reformation movements in the 16th century. You can't expect everyone to be the same. The English Reformation alone is enough to fill volumes of books (and probably has). Luther was just a powderkeg. The only thing all Protestants are indebted to him about is that he started a trend of making fresh translations of the scriptures from Hebrew and Greek. Something even Catholics started encouraging in the 20th century (better late than never). In that sense, some of the central things even the Reformation held forth are just things Catholics appreciate now.

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8c3ea2  No.833216

>>833214

>The thread is about conservative and liberal Protestant movements.

And the deception is that the split in the protestant movement started hundreds of years ago, but this is flatly false, as the split between the sodomite factions of the Anglican, Methodist and Lutherans happened in the late 20th century.

This false argument was made to counter the claim that while Catholicism never changes, any protestant can simply say "God is okay with this sin" and form a new protestant denomination.

>You can't expect everyone to be the same.

And those which are in error are false religions, Obviously, they can't all be true. This is the flaw of Protestantism and even modernism in the catholic church.

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5efd10  No.833217

>>833214

>>833187

Stop responding to low effort posts

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6d202a  No.833219

>>833214

>he started a trend of making fresh translations of the scriptures from Hebrew and Greek.

Not really though, I mean you have the Wessex Gospels written in A.D. 990 being translated fresh from the Greek New Testament into Anglo-Saxon. We still have that today. You also have the now-lost translation by Peter Valdo from the original tongues into Franco-Provençal about two centuries after that, which was made before the crusades and Inquisition went in to kill everybody.

Later the some of the Vaudois carried their ancient copies over to Geneva and produced modern translations such as the Olivetan translation, released basically at the same time as Tyndale, just one year after him. I wouldn't go with Luther's Bible simply because as has been pointed out he modified Romans 3:28.

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246a56  No.833531

File: 294aaccdda6ec75⋯.png (573.62 KB, 2828x1296, 707:324, 1585189452108.png)

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246a56  No.833532

>>832531

>Thomas Moore tortured and killed many people in London. Their crime? They owned a Bible in English

Yep. Reading The Foxe's Book of Martyrs right now and how he imprisoned and got John Frith and Andrew Hewitt executed.

Ironically he then got imprisoned in the same tower that he put John Frith in after not recognizing King Henry VIII

I really don't see how anyone can read that book and not see the RCC is a corrupt mess and tortured Christians just like pagan Rome did

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246a56  No.833533

>>832538

>says prots pick and choose in the Bible

>quotes Matthew 7:21 but not the next two verses

oh I'm laffin

Matthew 7

>21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Doing the Father's will is believing on Christ, not doing works.

John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

>22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Those people were trusting in their works to save them, then get cast into hell.

>23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He can't say he never knew you if you used to be saved. He would have to say I used to know you.

https://invidio.us/QZ6EM_NSSEk

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6d202a  No.833535

>>833533

They always quote Matthew 7:21 without vv. 22-23, they always quote 2 Timothy 3:16 without v. 17, and they always quote John 3:5 (the corrupt version that adds a word to it, not the KJV version) without verses 3-7. Trying to think of others but those are the ones that come to mind. Oh right one more is Philippians 2:12 always without verse 13.

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711c44  No.833788

>>832531

Is there a comprehensive book going over the many ancient non-Catholic Christians that were not heretical? I've seen documentaries and books about singular sects like Vaudois, but not any describing all of them and their similarity.

It has always been interesting to read of an underground true church that read the Bible, yet was not a heretical seed of blasphemy like Cathars.

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bb4b24  No.833791

>>833788

>Is there a comprehensive book going over the many ancient non-Catholic Christians that were not heretical?

Not really, it's just LARPing over disjointed bits of old ass chronicles.

If you want that stuff, it's usually the same old ancient apostolic MENA churches, and weird offshots that died.

>It has always been interesting to read of an underground true church that read the Bible, yet was not a heretical seed of blasphemy like Cathars.

It's an enticing idea, but it falls apart, among other things, due to the simple fact that these groups should have had some folk memory that their predecessors came from Algeria or whatever(i mean, even my peasant relatives had some hint a part of my family came from a foreign land, 2 centuries ago, without any paperwork).

Also, even my neck of the woods in Europe, which wouldn't become an organized state until the 1300's, used ancestral latin words for theological concepts, despite us being theologically slavicised to high heavens.

Also, from various evidence, there is a high chance the rite of a part of my country wasn't the byzantine rite, but the gallic rite, that was gradually lost in time.

Likewise, the liturgy of the assyrians, which were never part of the roman empire, was instantly familiar to the residents of Italy, when one of their bishops came to visit Rome in the Middle Ages.

So yeah, if God could keep minor things like this recognizable over a thousand years of separation, without people even trying that much, i'm pretty sure the 2 millennia old existence of an entire globe spanning shadow church could be inferred from more than some off-hand remarks in some obscure annals.

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711c44  No.833793

>>833791

Them being actively annihilated for centuries by papists would lead to destruction of records and culture. I don't insinuate that it was an organized group spanning the world, only that their faith in Christ was true and they leaned on Scripture and the Holy Spirit, not man, to guide them.

Handwaiving them as some obscure nothings is foolish and dishonors them and others who have lived under persecution.

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334741  No.833808

>>833793

>Them being actively annihilated for centuries by papists would lead to destruction of records and culture.

Jews got segregated, periodically massacred, exiled to the edges of the planet, where they developed their own wildly differing languages and cultures, and even illiterate peasants recognised "this guy is a follower of judaism, came from the Holy Land, and came to the country in such and such way".

Id expect an eternally recurring heresy to make atleast chronicles connect the dots and go "hey, look, its that anabaptist thing again".

And since its some crap apparently the catholics had to deal with without intrerruptions, id expect atleast a local council to condemn them.

And i mean properly, with anathemising congregationaliwm, sola fideism, and credobaptism, not vague stuff like "we condemned donatist rebaptism, so WE WUZ"

>Handwaiving them as some obscure nothings is foolish and dishonors them and others who have lived under persecution.

My ancestors got persecuted and killee by catholics and muslims, too, mate.

I can still recognise bulls—.

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1b23e9  No.833814

>>832500

Because people on the internet love to strawman their opposition by the worst thing they can relate them to. You've been doing this this whole thread. Catholics have a problem with Protestantism even if they know there are some great traditional churches out there.

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8c3ea2  No.833820

>>833814

>Because people on the internet love to strawman their opposition by the worst thing they can relate them to.

Yes, but that's a waste of time, because the faith being straw manned will know it is not their faith being argued against.

People who use a straw man, e.g. "Catholics worship Mary" are trolling to anger others, and they get pleasure from this. Such bad faith arguments are sinful and counter productive.

OTOH, I made an argument that the free interpretation of the Bible by anyone lead to a wide disparity of beliefs and used Steve Anderson and Westboro Baptist as extreme examples. I was btfo when Baptist-Anon then argued for hate using "scripture".

I'm still absorbing that.

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246a56  No.833827

>>833820

>I was btfo when Baptist-Anon then argued for hate using "scripture".

>I'm still absorbing that.

Hey, that's me

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548025  No.833841

>>833788

It's easy to show this. If you look at the world west-northwest of Italy, you will notice that Romanism did not have a grasphold on the state there until the Concordat of Worms in 1122 when the Emperor gave up his rights in Italy and Burgundy. Following this they also had to declare a crusade and inquisition in southern France to remove nonconformist churches. This is called the Albigensian Crusade and the (first) Papal Inquisition. However, the survivors of this were known as the Vaudois and they survived the inquisition, managing to bring some of their Latin manuscripts to Geneva during the reformation era. They never gave in to Papal superstitions.

Can you show that Rome exerted some influence to the west of Italy? Sure. But infant baptism only started to spread into France in the 860s. They didn't have control to the point of erasing nonconforming churches. When they started to try this in the 1110s and 1120s and afterward, it caused mass uprisings. This alone proves they were not able to erase baptist churches without implementing the inquisition in those areas. Probably the longest continuity of such ancient churches however exists in Wales where it later spread into England, although they also experienced persecution especially after Henry IV took the throne in 1399.

See the following tract written in 1146 AD:

>Epistola Sive Tractatus adversus Petrobrusianos Haereticos in Patrologia Latina, Vol. 189, col. 728-729.

They say, Christ sending his disciples to preach, says in the gospel, "Go ye out into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature: He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mar xvi) From these words of our Saviour it is plain that none can be saved, unless he believe, and be baptized; that is, have both christian faith and baptism; for not one of these, but both together, does save: so that infants, tho' they be by you baptized, yet since by reason of their age they cannot believe, are not saved. It is therefore an idle and vain thing, for you to wash persons with water, at such a time when you may indeed cleanse their skin from dirt in a human manner, but not purge their souls from sin: But we do stay till the proper time of faith; and when a person is capable to know his God, and believe in him, then we do, not as you charge us, re-baptize him, but baptize him; for he is so to be accounted, as not yet baptized, who is not washed with that baptism, by which sins are done away.

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