/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>831818

but that faith can be anything, that is the purpose of orthodoxy, to direct one towards "ἀταραξία".

In catholicism, sola fide is equivalent to perfect contrition.

https://archive.org/details/heavenopentosoul00sempuoft/page/n3/mode/2up

I don't think anyone would complain about the concept of believe and you shall be saved.

I see the criticism of it as being against hypocrites who consider faith some mental assertion without changes in human life.

If a fat boomer says to me that all I must do is have faith, it means something different from when a monk says the same.

I've read Luther directly and I think he meant in the second case more than the first, though I do not believe he made himself understood to laymen.

>>831818

>skepticism

it is interesting that luther was a nominalist occamite, he had a disdain for the baptism of aristotle.

>>831821

Thank you for the link brother

>>831822

Ok, I'll admit that does seem to change things, but we're judging by appearances now. I know of course that people are going to mean different things by the word "faith" which complicates the discussion even further.

However I have a good link about philosophy (sorry if you watch it for the annoying Musak, I didn't make it). Still it's about how the Stoic claims were btfo by Pyrrho and the Skeptics, and this led to a realization that faith in God could be a solution to the problem of how to find peace given that we cannot know anything for certain.

>>831824

I understand the danger of judging by appearances, but at the same time we cannot say Christ did not spend a lot of times complaining about hypocrisy.

I don't think it complicates things to say people have different intents and behaviors regarding a denotation. I think it illuminates it.

There is another problem with the expression "not knowing anything for certain", dpubt and certainty are interlocked in our language games.

I wouldn't call it skepticism if skepticism is regarded as questioning, for I believe Christianism does not answer these great philosophical questions but rather treats such philosophical questioning as a disease of the soul. I would call it a dedication to intellectual austerity.

>>831824

>given that we cannot know anything for certain.

That's not a given

>Faith alone saves, but faith is not alone.

Faith is definitely a virtue given our limited minds. We use it everyday for spiritual purposes or otherwise. Atheists won’t accept that fact, though. They seem to think that faith is believing in something without any reason or evidence whatsoever. They don’t realize that faith is at the heart of everything we do

>>831834

Yeah that's just a misconception because that's an alternate definition of faith

I've heard a very good apologetics discussion between Christian and atheist about this here:

Unbelievable?: Is faith about belief or trust? And why does it matter? Travis d—inson vs Brian Blais (+ Ben Jacobs of Genexis) https://unbelievable.podbean.com/e/is-faith-about-belief-or-trust-and-why-does-it-matter-travis-d---inson-vs-brian-blais-ben-jacobs-of-genexis/

>>831832

>A dedication to intellectual austerity

And I agree, which is why I said provocatively, that the "believe and be saved" kind of free-wheeling may have a point.

I was just reading an account by Sextus Empiricus about the Pyrrho, that once he became doubtful of virtually every truth, he finally gained peace of mind (ataraxia), and Sextus relates it to a story about a painter named Apelles, who was trying to paint the foam in a horse's mouth, and when he failed, he angrily threw the sponge he was cleaning his brushes with at the painting. End result was perfect horse-mouth foam.

In the same way, I'm seeking "perfection" but I tried the route of pleasing God, and it was bad. I found myself worse than I'd ever been before. I'm hoping that if I throw the sponge at it, things might turn around though.

>>831849

I have read the skeptics in source only tangentially. I've read a book called the Christianization of Pyrrhonism, it's secular and obviously no book ought to be endorsed fully, though it is interesting for you to check out if you like it. I get the feeling you might also like Peter Strawson and the later Wittgenstein.

I would say that if you are looking for perfection, you will not find it beyond silence. Words can add to our spiritual experience of the world through prayer, hymns, and blessings but to create a written extensive system is to create an always poorer caricature of God's creation.

>>831818

Sola Fide isn't a completely faulty teaching. The problem arises when people think that having faith simply means believing in God and they can do whatever they please as long as they believe that God is real. As Christ said to the rich man, "Even the demons believe." To truly have faith in God is to obey his commandments and live according to his will.

>>831963

I misremembered that Jesus quote, he didn't say that to the rich man. but he did say that in James chapter 2

People seem to be thrown off by the misdefinition of what faith actually is, namely they take an "outward" definition as being "saying they have faith" is equivalent to having faith… because it wouldn't be polite not to accept those claims. The reality is that someone who has actually placed their faith in Christ has done something much more substantial than outwardly claim to have something, and this is of course reflected in their every action, as they have, in fact, (not simply claimed to), repented of their former belief– which is that something else might save them, which everyone has at some point held when they were unbelievers– and has in fact (not merely claimed) turned away from the power of satan and to the power of God. We see from what Paul said in Acts 26:18-20 that there is the repentance itself and there are works fit for repentance, so that both occur together but one is the cause of the other, with faith coming first and good works being made possible afterward.

However, according to Paul in Romans, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians, we should be careful not to take credit for the work of God in our lives, as "boasting is excluded" and we are saved by grace through faith, "lest any man should boast." So we should not be taking credit for what is truly not our work but only God working through us.

It is also quite strongly spelled out for us by Paul in Philippians 1:6 that once God has begun a work in someone, we are confident that He will perform it until the day of Christ. This keeps well in line with eternal security of the believer as spelled out elsewhere (John 5:24, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, 2Cor. 1:21-22, Ephesians 1:11-14, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 5:13).