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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: dda5e776dfbd784⋯.jpg (94 KB, 800x565, 160:113, bwluav9tywdpy2symde0mduxmi….jpg)

b0d37f  No.831538

So I've been studying set theory and the Zermelo–Fraenkel axioms of set theory right now and it seems that Heraclitus's and Philo's Logos, the same we read about in Genesis 1:3-30, Psalm 33:6, John 1:1, etc., is closely related somehow to this. Obviously God is beyond comprehension to us. Yet mathematical logic ontologically implies at least "mathematical" Platonism, although propositions can be modeled logically, mathematical statements are propositions in fact. Some Mathematicians would retreat into Formalism, but I think Formalism and Platonism can be reconciled. At the fundamental level we cannot prove mathematical statements, we cannot even prove the rules of natural numbers. But it seems that somehow a consistent and proven (set of axioms) can actually describe something about the real world, after all the whole purpose of the game is to create some sort of casual relationship between objects. How do we access this basic knowledge and construct rules from it? I think it's just the way we think, and even though I have some disagreements with Kant in a lot of areas, mathematics seems to be synthetic a priori. Ultimately the nature of reality seems to rest a great deal inside of Mathematics, Logic, propositions… Logos? The Logos? Something related? I just hesitate to go too far with this, pantheism (a.k.a atheism) is not an option here.

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95bc4e  No.831539

Logos and Reason are not the same as logic.

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b0d37f  No.831542

>>831539

>>831539

Logos could refer to reasoned discourse, and for Aristotle it was reflective of how we think. Logos means word/reason/speech/discourse/thinking and other related concepts as well.

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1c73b9  No.831543

>>831538

not sure what you're asking

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6962c1  No.831544

>>831538

The classical trivium consists not only of logic, but of grammar first, then logic and lastly rhetoric, that is of actually having and formulating points effectively by using grammar and logic. If you are not informed by some end, then your ways and means remain lame. Trying to find out the nature of reality is one such end. Certainly if you can derive mathematical truisms then these are extensible for use in deductive reasoning in the real world, but only at most (and ideally, to the same) extent and degree that the facts about the objects in question may initially be ascertained.

Axiom of choice is still considered optional and not much relies on it.

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548155  No.831545

>>831538

Can you explain or link an article or video on formalism? I do not know what you are talking about but would like to know more?

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6f8c52  No.831546

>>831539

Comments like this are exactly why women and jews are perverting and destroying Christianity. I expected better from the Orthodox.

>>831544

Knowing reality while often useful shouldn't be the ultimate end goal. Logos is God. Reality is a creation. Worshipping creation is idolatry and knowledge worship specifically is an evil heresy called gnosticism.

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6962c1  No.831547

File: 95dbfeccab3139d⋯.png (333.9 KB, 469x466, 469:466, dict.PNG)

>>831546

>Reality is a creation.

This definition is disputed.

But also, I also brought up the term "nature of reality" from what the OP said, of an end (not necessarily an ultimate end) which he may have apparently expressed, simply as an example.

>knowledge worship specifically is an evil heresy called gnosticism.

That is an unduly broad definition, you have not really captured the meaning of that term. In actuality it refers to sects as well known for its obscurantism as anything else. However it is also true that it took substantial influence from the neoplatonists. So the association is not entirely inaccurate, although you didn't specify any of this.

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9052a2  No.831548

>>831546

The Logos is a Person. Jesus Christ is not the same thing as the abstract concept of logic. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

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e9ed7e  No.831549

>>831545

Just search for Platonism vs Formalism

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1f0ab5  No.831552

>>831538

You're right. Using predefined rules to describe reality is something that happens frequently. I see no reason to make such a distinction between the invented and the discovered. There is nothing new under the sun. Someone could come up with an idea all on their own and it could happen to be the exact same idea an unrelated farmer from thousands of years ago thought. I like logical discussion. Jesus(God) as the Logos strikes me as much less offensive than God being a wise old cartoony sage.

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95bc4e  No.831555

>>831546

You're both philosophically and Patristically illiterate. Logos is the divine person of Christ.

Spend less time worrying about the world, pray to Christ and the Comforter.

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6f8c52  No.831561

>>831555

Yes, it's Jesus but Jesus is God and symbolic of logic. The whole point is to put logic above everything. Socrates was a proto-Jesus. He chose to appeal to logic even though rhetoric could've saved him from death.

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9052a2  No.831578

File: 19386c987be3f41⋯.jpg (6.26 KB, 480x360, 4:3, hqdefault_2_.jpg)

>>831561

>Socrates was proto-Jesus

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5298dc  No.831585

File: 801f290aa02d610⋯.jpg (73.29 KB, 736x1080, 92:135, what_am_i_reading.jpg)

>>831561

>Socrates was a proto-Jesus

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6f8c52  No.831604

>>831578

>>831585

You have to be embarrassingly illiterate to not see the parallels between Socrates and Jesus. My philosophy professor spent over a week covering it.

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5298dc  No.831605

>>831604

That's not what "proto" usually means dude

Is that the way your professor phrased it? Is it a secular program?

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6f8c52  No.831607

>>831605

Don't get pedantic over semantics. You know what I meant. He's a figure before Jesus who was very similar to Jesus.

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5298dc  No.831609

>>831607

I didn't know what you meant until you just clarified, no need to get mad and insulting

>before Jesus

Let's clarify this one too, you mean before the incarnation right

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9052a2  No.831612

>>831604

What does Athens have to do with Jerusalem? The Greeks demand wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, which is to the Greeks foolishness, but to we who are being saved, it is the power of God.

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6f8c52  No.831616

>>831609

No, Socrates was alive after the incarnation :^)

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5298dc  No.831620

>>831616

funny hehe sarcasm joke but do you see what I was clarifying? "Before Jesus" doesn't exist

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f9c652  No.840861

>>831578

>>831585

>>831609

>>831605

>>831620

You know what he meant. Socrates appeared before the Logos was made incarnate in Jesus Christ, even though Jesus Christ always existed. Sorta like how Paul says Jesus was the first Adam who existed before Adam, but was made incarnate after Adam or how Mary existed before the Incarnation of Jesus, but Jesus existed before Mary.

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c969dc  No.840869

>>831561

>Socrates was a proto-Jesus.

Socrates is a type of AntiChrist and philosophy is linguistic confusion. 'What is truth' is a senseless question.

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309ff0  No.840870

>>840869

Truth exists as nothing more than a useful abstraction for what is currently happening.

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309ff0  No.840871

Come to think of it, truth being an abstraction makes the concept already somewhat evil in itself. kikes love to abstract everything and satanists call satan "the embodiment of truth." Playing the truth game is battling on the enemy's home turf.

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f9c652  No.840880

File: 19609fc26e1381c⋯.jpg (1.05 MB, 2886x1408, 1443:704, IMG_0702.JPG)

>>840869

>'What is truth' is a senseless question.

That's what atheistic Continental philosophers that deny there is anything outside the physical realm say. In fact, that's basically what Friedrich Nietzsche believes Truth is.

>>840870

That's literally what modern secular/atheistic Analytic philosophers say Truth is. Look up Pragmatism and C.S. Peirce.

>>840871

Except they just pervert the definition of Truth, like the two examples above.

For Christians, you really ought to know more philosophy than you do. Not really because it surpasses or even is equal to the Truth of Christ, but despite the pagan origin of a lot of Greek philosophies, there are parts that inculcate Christian virtue and truth (albeit not as fully as Scripture and the Sacraments can). Even St. Basil said this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_to_Young_Men_on_Greek_Literature

There's nothing wrong with using your reason to understand God and his creation. In fact, it's the whole reason why we have intellect in the first place. Faith and reason are complementary, but faith is superior ultimately because it is through faith we see God, not reason. But that doesn't mean reason is useless. It still allows us to direct our lives closer to God by receiving the grace to see His creation as it is. Stop this mindless hating of reason and just follow the Logos, Jesus Christ, both with your mind and heart. If I were you I'd start with Plato, then got to Aristotle then the Stoics. You don't have to (and really shouldn't because they have a lot of positions that are opposed to the Law laid down by Christ) agree with everything they say. But on the same token they have a lot of useful and frankly necessary life lessons on how to attain virtue and be a better man in Christ, which is what you should get out of them. Also, read some modern philosophical literature (namely, anything that isn't Thomist or is generally the result of the Cartesian revolution). Not because they're good for gaining virtue (they are most likely not), but it trains you in argumentation against modern day heresies and it'll help you to convert souls.

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309ff0  No.840886

>>840880

>That's literally what modern secular/atheistic Analytic philosophers say Truth is.

Well heaven forbid God lets them be right about something.

>Faith and reason are complementary, but faith is superior ultimately

Yes.

>because it is through faith we see God, not reason.

No, it's because through faith you have reason which lets you see God. You can't have God without reason and you can't have reason without faith.

>just follow the Logos, Jesus Christ, both with your mind and heart

The problem is many people lack a mind that can comprehend Logos. That's why the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages gave up entirely on trying to convert certain peoples. Nowadays, the Vatican doesn't care about heresy so there's no point in trying to make sure people can follow Catholicism proper anymore.

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f9c652  No.840894

>>840886

>Well heaven forbid God lets them be right about something.

But they're literally wrong about that since their worldview is ultimately materialistic and devoid of any sense of God. They have no sense of truth past the things they can see, so they are blind to facets of Truth the go deeper than the material world. Truth is more than just the correspondence of facts with reality. It's the unveiling of a mystery and the act of knowing something once unknown.

>No, it's because through faith you have reason which lets you see God. You can't have God without reason and you can't have reason without faith.

Tell me how you can understand the Trinity through reason? You really can't explain it because it's a Mystery of Faith. While the existence of God and some of His attributes can be found via reason, things like the Incarnation, the Resurrection and the Trinity along with how the bread and wine become Jesus' Body and Blood, while still appearing as bread and wine, cannot be ultimately explained by reason. They can be justified as to why they happened or at best analogized, but the actual mechanics of it are not things we as creatures can understand.

>The problem is many people lack a mind that can comprehend Logos.

Unless someone actively hardens their heart against the Truth, there is always some way to save at least one soul from the fires of Hell. It's better to save just one soul than to send someone to Hell who was not only able to understand the Word, but willing to conform to it but didn't have access to it and lives a wretched life as a result. You say that the Vatican is committing a heresy and disobeying God by doing what they're supposed to do, but you are literally acting like Jonah and being a disobedient child of God and not doing what he called you to do as a Catholic. If someone's doesn't know anything about the faith and wants to know or improperly catechized, don't wait for someone else to do your job. Just do it.

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309ff0  No.840900

>>840894

>Truth is more than just the correspondence of facts with reality. It's the unveiling of a mystery and the act of knowing something once unknown.

So now truth just means learning? Pointless semantics.

>Tell me how you can understand the Trinity through reason?

The Son is the image the Father generates by knowing himself and the Holy Spirit is the love between both of them.

> It's better to save just one soul than to send someone to Hell who was not only able to understand the Word, but willing to conform to it but didn't have access to it and lives a wretched life as a result.

You make a good point but just like the modern Vatican you don't consider the possibility of heresy and everyone but that one soul who gets it spreading their error to the rest of the world ultimately damning more people than you saved.

>you are literally acting like Jonah

I find it ironic you bring up Jonah shortly after I learned there was evidence of tampering with the ending of that book. Perhaps God led me to that information with foreknowledge of our conversation.

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c969dc  No.840904

>>840870

There is no whatness to a word, neither fabricated by abstraction nor seen by the eyes of the mind.

I first thought the Socratic dialogues were satire with the athenians making excuses to leave an autist who does not know how to speak, only for him to think himself victorious.

>>840880

I don't care what they ramble about.

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309ff0  No.840906

>>840904

>I first thought the Socratic dialogues were satire with the athenians making excuses to leave an autist who does not know how to speak, only for him to think himself victorious.

You're obviously not Greek Orthodox.

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c969dc  No.840943

File: f2dfccba9922432⋯.jpg (69.38 KB, 900x600, 3:2, isaac_syrian_quote_by_isaa….jpg)

>>840906

lmao, how would I even go about proving it through the internet? You merely assumed it because I don't believe in philosophy, but if you've read the desert fathers and prayed you'd know orthodoxy is about silence - not talking.

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20ee20  No.840944

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>831538

No, "logos" has more to do with the translation of the Hebrew term "memrah" and the theology that develop thereof.

John Ronning can explain it better than I could.

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