/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

https://disrn.com/news/pope-francis-pushes-for-universal-basic-income

Forgot the link.

>>830990

There's a curtain?

>>830989

>this is the control of the distribution of goods that Karl Marx spoke of.

Not really.

I consider an UBI to be unafordable BS, but some forms of it have been thrown around even by capitalist free market "fundamentalist" economist.

See the following article, written by the austrian school loving libertarians at Reason.com(also shows how they absolutely differ from the populist socialist proposals of today).

https://reason.com/2019/08/01/do-milton-friedman-mlk-and-andrew-yang-really-agree-on-the-universal-basic-income/

>>830994

>There's a curtain?

Got me there.

>>830996

It's interesting that a websites called reason.com is still writing fiction with baseless claims e.g. a "public dole for people who don't work is an American ideal".

There is nothing logical about that.

And from a Christian perspective, UBI is anti-Christian. He who will not work, shall not eat.

Christian charity is about giving, not robbing others for your own greed. This twisting of the words of Christ is an abomination.

>>831006

The other problem however is that there always enough jobs. I think we should do a better at job creation and easing people (starting from the earliest education) to have a fulfilling career life. At least in America, it's especially dire, with the lack of interesting trades or trade education, and everyone shifting to braindead service jobs,

The greatest charity of all would be giving a man a real life. The money would simply come as a result.

>>831009

Err.. I mean, there *aren't* enough jobs.

>>831009

It's part of the Catholic Social Justice dogma that a Catholic with a business should employ Catholics and others at a living wage and treat them justly. But it is not part of Catholic dogma to say that government should tax the working man to provide a living to the non working, who need not even be grateful. That's a violation of the 7th commandment, "You shall not steal", and it's even lazy because you vote the government to do your theft for you.

I was pushing a mop to pay my way though engineering school and I paid state taxes while Gov. Ronald Reagan got a tax break because his cattle ranch failed: he barbequed the only cow on his "ranch" for a party so it was all a total loss and tax write off.

So often, the government robs the poor to reward the rich.

>>831006

>>831009

>>831010

you know, repeating literally the same thing you said earlier, except with extra outrage, doesnt make your cliched slogans with a sidedish of bible verse any more true.

UBI still isnt communist, or even strictly socialist, as ive shown.

Its just populistic and promotes stupid practices.

>>831026

I didn't say anything that expressed outrage. That was hours ago, but I'm pretty sure I said "Give people better jobs" at my casual best, with no emoting on my part.

>>831026

Another thing: The label of communism isn't my real issue anyways. It's just that it's fatalistic. It's given up on even thinking about job creation. This was Andrew Yang's whole schtick - his fatalistic belief that automation would end everyone.

It doesn't care to reverse anything that created that situation either. It's a sleight of hand. He gets people to focus on "AI" as the enemy that put them out of jobs, when he real enemy was outsourcing. Those jobs can be brought back, if you fight for it.

>universal basic income

>gommie

anon I dont like gommunism but don't confuse apples with oranges, this is capitalism plain and simple

Okay, as pointed out in the definition, Socialism includes social organizations that control the distribution of goods. UBI falls under distribution of goods, as it is the government giving money to people who didn't earn it; something that doesn't happen in a natural system (as an ideal, corruption is not an ideal)

Mindless assertions that UBI isn't communist is not an argument. UBI is a form of Marxism, and thus a sin according to the Catholic Church.

UBI is paying people to be lazy and contribute nothing. UBI is the government taking from the worker to give to the lazy. There is no charity in that, it's theft.

>>831060

Marxism isn't about "distribution of goods", it's about making the means of production common property(which is why the first point in the programs of all the marxist parties is nationalizing all the big biz).

If you want to pin this on the spectrum of the left, it's pretty much textbook soc-dem.

>>831118

>If the Government controls the means of production, how can they not control the distribution of goods?

Except the gov doesn't own the means of production, in any present or popularly proposed UBI system.

>>831124

The government would control the means of distribution of goods, by giving people free money.

Taking money from Peter at the point of the government gun to enrich Paul who will not work is the sin of theft. This is not "charity", which is the giving of oneself.

Catholics encourage giving, not stealing.

>>831129

You keep trying to do clever wordplays, but you just keep failing flat on your face.

At the end of the day, while UBI might be populistic, socialistic(probably, though in some ways, no), or just a plain stupid idea, it is not marxism, or any other flavour of communism, because the companies are neither nationalized by the state, or predominantly turned into coops.

>>831143

You're really going to use ad homs because I point out words have meanings, then follow up with a flat assertion with no premises or logic behind it.

Okay.

I guess I did my pearl casting and now the tear me up part is in order.

Ephesians 4:28

He that stole, let him now steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have something to give to him that suffereth need.

2 Thessalonians 3:10

For also when we were with you, this we declared to you: that, if any man will not work, neither let him eat.

7th Commandment

Thou shalt not steal.

Pope Francis

We should consider Taxing the working man and give their money to those who won't work

Greed is a powerful motivator and a tool of the devil.

>>830986

So, OP, what exactly is your opinion on taxation in general? Is a state not permitted to levy any tax whatsoever upon its citizens?

UBI, fundamentally, is no different at all than any other government expenditure paid for by taxes. The government collects a portion of money from the economic activity of the citizens, chooses policies that seem to be in the best interests of the state and its people, and then spend the collected tax money on those policies. It could be military, it could be education, it could be welfare, it could be anything. Unless taxation itself is "marxist" - which is rather difficult to swallow, seeing as how taxes have existed since the dawn of organized government - then UBI is not "marxist."

Are you similarily opposed to food stamps? Social Security? Disability and unemployment welfare? Heck, even a straight-up tax deduction, paying 10% instead of 20% taxes for example, is the same principle at work. UBI is in the same ideological strain as all of these.

>>831153

It's too direct, there's no strings attached. Now that you've given them (the gov't) the ability to determine people's incomes there is nothing stopping a full blown marxist centralized controlled economy from de facto existing. They simply pump up the UBI and taxes until things are at the level they want. And of course, more for themselves.

>>831155

Also, no more games, people will simply take their UBI, walk out of the bank and immediately feed it back into whichever local politician's campaign fund who says they will raise or redirect the UBI for their district even higher. So then you have welfare queens who cluster together and do nothing but vote for people who will raise their UBI even higher while disproportionately sapping away the part of the population that produces value. People will set up corrupt slush funds fed by UBI that will go toward strategically tilting swing districts in their favor, they will hire using the slush fund a few progressives from google analytics to run the algorithms and to set up shell companies.

>>831144

>You're really going to use ad homs because I point out words have meanings

Yes, meanings you specifically play fast and loose with, in order to try to make a retarded argument.

When i show how your specific claim does not follow the definition of what communism or marxism is, you go back to vague statements like "it's socialist" and "control of distribution of goods".

If you had simply said, as you argue quite well here >>831156 , that an UBI is populist, electoral bait and the modern version of bread and circuses, i would have agreed.

But you specifically used the word M-A-R-X-I-S-T, and that's retarded, because this doesn't resemble how marxist economies work, either in theory, or how their closest aproximations have worked historically, at all.

The companies don't have as the physical holder of their stocks neither the State, or the workers themselves, nor is the whole thing wrapped up in all the ideological memes of Marx(dialectics, alienation, LTV, etc.)

Anything less is just moving the goalposts.

>follow up with a flat assertion with no premises or logic behind it.

That's grand, coming from someone who's entire thread has been repeating like a parrot "control of distribution of goods" and "who doesn't work doesn't eat", and nothing else.

>I guess I did my pearl casting and now the tear me up part is in order.

Getting called out for misusing economic concepts doesn't make you a martyr, just someone who's talking out of his ass.

>>831158

Okay, you want to steal from the working man to feed your own greed, and you're too lazy to do your own stealing, you can just enjoy hell and damnation.

have a nice day on that government check

>>831168

I have a reasonably well paying job in the private sector, lol, so you can take that "you are just envious on the hard working man that pulled himself by his bootstraps, you lazy hippie" script and shove it.

And i also know economics, and come from Eastern Europe, so i know what is marxism, and what is just populism.

>>831174

There is no greater authority than your own opinion of yourself. You got me there. What chance did God and his Holy Church have when they denounced not working and called sloth a sin?

Glad you came along.

Have a nice day!

>>831176

You're the one with the highest opinion of yourself here.

>>831176

Still not marxism.

>>831178

A redistributive system that attempts to engineer "equality" by sapping from a hated group (deemed as the enemy) and enriching the corrupt (being deemed as the "hero,") is essentially the same thing. As the very concept of "ownership" is lost when disobedience to tyrannical state policy based on "progressive" sophistical theories results in self destruction. It doesn't matter whether those "progressive" theories are classically marxist or not, for all practical purposes these are de facto the same as marxism, with marxism merely being the foremost example of this cursed authoritarian system. The fundaments are not the particular loopy utopian theory being parroted, the fundaments are: the redistributive system based on conspiratorial grievance narratives and nihilistically cynical mob rule with survival of the fittest. In this way modern "social-progressives" and classic marxists are one in the same. The only difference being they spout different lies, (which they always craft to serve the moment) based on the current zeitgeist. Right now that includes "climate change". At the core it's absolute brutalistic mob rule stirred by murderous envy and the fierce, desperate contention that there is no God. It's godless "agitators" present with a paper thin intellectualist-nihilist veneer covering their own self-aware hypocrisy, yet their atheistical godlessness quite desperately urges them that all men are hypocrites equal to themselves. And the one thing that they can't explain are those that believe in God who don't behave according to their expectation.