/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Are you involved in a healthy church?

The Screwtape Letters, Chapter 8

My dear Wormwood,

So you 'have great hopes that the patient's religious phase is dying away', have you? I always thought the Training College had gone to pieces since they put old Subgob at the head of it, and now I am sure. Has no one every told you about the Law of Undulation?

Humans are amphibians– half spirit and half animal. ([God's] determination to produce such a revolting hybrid was one of the things that determined Our Father, the Devil, to withdraw his support from Him.) As spirits they belong to the eternal world, but as animals they inhabit time. This means that while their spirit can be directed to an eternal object, their bodies, passions, and imaginations are in continual change, for as to be in time means to change. Their nearest approach to constancy, therefore, is undulation– the repeated return to a level from which they repeatedly fall back, a series of troughs and peaks. If you had watched your patient carefully you would have seen this undulation in every department of his life– his interest in his work, his affection for his friends, his physical appetites, all go up and down. As long as he lives on earth periods of emotional and bodily richness and liveliness will alternate with periods of numbness and poverty. The dryness and dullness through which your patient is now going are not, as you fondly suppose, your workmanship; they are merely a natural phenomenon which will do us no good unless you make a good use of it.

To decide what the best use of it is, you must ask what use [our enemy, God,] wants to make of it, and then do the opposite. Now it may surprise you to learn that in His efforts to get permanent possession of a soul, He relies on the troughs even more than on the peaks; some of His special favourites have gone through longer and deeper troughs than anyone else. The reason is this: To us a human is primarily food; our aim is the absorption of its will into ours, the increase of our own area of selfhood at its expense. But the obedience which the [God] demands of men is quite a different thing. One must face the fact that all the talk about His love for men, and His service being perfect freedom, is not (as one would gladly believe) mere propaganda, but an appalling truth. He really does want to fill the universe with a lot of loathsome little replicas of Himself– creatures whose life, on its miniature scale, will be qualitatively like His own, not because he has absorbed them but because their wills freely conform to His. We want cattle who can finally become food; He wants servants who can finally become sons. We want to suck in,, He wants to give out. We are empty and would be filled; He is full and flows over. Our war aim is a world in which Our Father Below has drawn all other beings into himself: [God] wants a world full of beings united to Him but still distinct.

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And that is where the troughs come in. You must have often wondered why [God] does not make more use of His power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree He chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the Irresistible and the Indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of His scheme forbids Him to use. Merely to override a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo. For His ignoble idea is to eat the cake and have it; the creatures are to be one with Him, but yet themselves; merely to cancel them, or assimilate them, will not serve. He is prepared to do a little overriding at the beginning. He will set them off with communications of His presence which, though faint, seem great to them, with emotional sweetness, and easy conquest over temptation. Sooner or later He withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all those supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand up on its own legs– to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish. It is during such trough periods, much more than during the peak periods, that it is growing into the sort of creature He wants it to be. Hence the prayers offered in the state of dryness are those which please Him best. We can drag our patients along by continual tempting, because we design them only for the table, and the more their will is interfered with the better. He cannot 'tempt' to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.

But of course the troughs afford opportunities to our side also. Next week I will give you some hints on how to exploit them,

You affectionate uncle

Screwtape

>>830781

I attended mass every week until the quarantine happened. I never knew any of the other parishioners very well though.

>>830804

Try a church that believes in regenerate church membership

I have to stop discussing with atheists online. It never produces anything. Their pride has already formed their view. Everything is just an argument to them. Point out a book for them to read and they will demand that you give a summary so that they can avoid reading it and argue against the points that you give, justifying their laziness. Looking back, I can’t remember a time when I was online arguing against Christians, when I was an atheist. I was certainly never as vehement as these fools. I should realize that they are a lost cause, nothing but swine. No amount of reason can persuade hatred and pride. But still, I hate to see them spread so many ignorant arguments. I feel the need to correct them, but I can’t do it all. All around the world, people are being deceived, and what can I do to stop it? I should forget about it and only help those who I see in real life. Otherwise, the only ones worth talking to are those who have already humbled themselves, and are seeking truth.

>>830812

That would be a really smart way to go about it if there weren't millions of other people involved in the form of lurkers who will be persuaded one way or the other depending on presented counter-arguments.

>>830815

C.S. Lewis wrote a series of letters which are "written" by a demonic bureaucrat (Screwtape) to his nephew tempter demon (Wormwood), and his advice on how best to tempt his "patient". The letters are meant to teach us certain aspects of theology, especially regarding temptation, but also other points which generally manifest themselves in how the demons are incapable of understanding the motivations of God and their inability to comprehend His love.

>>830815

>>830818

>CS Lewis channeled a demon to write a book

Not literally, I will add. The Screwtape Letters is a Christian apologetic novel by C. S. Lewis and dedicated to J. R. R. Tolkien. It is written in a satirical, epistolary style and while it is fictional in format, the plot and characters are used to address Christian theological issues, primarily those to do with temptation and resistance to it. The story takes the form of a series of letters from a senior demon, Screwtape, to his nephew, Wormwood, a Junior Tempter. The uncle's mentorship pertains to the nephew's responsibility in securing the damnation of a British man known only as "the Patient".

Basically, the author reveals Christian truths by imagining the demonic perspective – Sun Tzu style. Know thy enemy and all that.

>>830882

>imagining the demonic perspective

That's all invoking is. It's literally just larping as what you assume the spirit to be like. I'm not saying it's a habit a Christian should really be doing too often though.

>>830887

You didn't say invoking, you said channeling.

>channeling

>The act or practice of serving as a medium through which a spirit guide purportedly communicates with living persons.

I knew what you meant, but I did not want anyone to think that C.S. Lewis was literally channeling demons to write his letters.

I've also grown tired of atheist whinging and generally don't waste my time on them anymore - it's like arguing with children. Their arguments are so tiresome and easy to predict, and I know sharing my viewpoint for the 500th time won't change their mind, so why bother? You'd ironically gain more insight conversing with NPCs in a video game instead. At this point, whenever someone goes on a tirade against organized religion to get under my skin, I just ask them why they're so angry and miserable acting, and suggest we change the subject. Pointing out how miserable they are in the moment and how much happiness your faith has brought you is a good way to bring them to self-reflection.

Anyway, I spend more of my time supporting my Catholic brothers and sisters, many of whom are struggling in the faith. Secular nonsense has warped the minds of many Catholics (particularly those who received poor catechesis), so your efforts may be better directed towards them. That, or simply focus on tempering your own faith if it's getting to the point of where you're having suicidal ideation… Don't let pathetic nihilists and their sick culture wear you down to that point. That includes /pol/.

Oh, and while it's not the most uplifting thing to watch, I would recommend Bishop Williamson's video series "Confusion Now Hath Made His Masterpiece" if you haven't already seen it. His Excellency provides clarity to the Catholic living in uncertain times.

>>830905

>His Excellency provides clarity

I somehow doubt that. Maybe you shouldn't be so involved in a self-glorification cult?

>>830908

>>830909

Can we please refrain from the in-fighting for at least a day? It's Easter (unless you're Orthodox).

>>830924

Sorry, fighting? No, I am helping by actually speaking what's right in this instance. If what I say is true then he really should get out of the cult. That's actually the way to solve this problem and to start obeying scripture.

>>830908

t. heretic cultist

>>830905

Maybe it is possible that one day this person, whether he's a mormon or whatever he is will be able to simply resolve to follow what God said and not fear the judgements of other men around him. People who go expressly against the words of God in their mechanical praying, who love those greetings in the marketplaces with the funny looking robes on marking them out. What it's doing is marking them out for special judgement, because of the words of what our Lord God oh so plainly said against it. He is against mechanical praying, against the unbefitting titles. His words are oh so plain, that we should not make long, grandiose public appearances of prayers, seeking glory only for ourselves (Our Excellencies) and it's only by fear of being looked down on by the cult that the words of the Lord become ignored, because they indeed have no answer for it or for these things. And so the word of our very precious Lord is laid aside, turned aside, never talked about and instead some self-appointed Your Excellencies be kneeled to and heard as if they were the Lord.

>>830909

>Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes

If wearing robes is sinful, then Jesus Christ and His apostles committed grave sin. This is a fine example of why quoting individual verses from Scripture without context is ill-advised.

>and love greetings in the markets

Priests do not walk around in public looking for attention and praise. Joel Osteen, Steven Anderson, and other Protestant leaders, however…

>and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts

Standing at an elevated position, shouting at people and demanding that dissenters be escorted out is what Anderson is known for, not Catholic priests.

>Which devour widows' houses

Priests are not Protestant politicians and ergo cannot shut down someone's property.

>and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation

I suppose our Blessed Lord is in great trouble for praying to the point of sweating blood in the Garden, hm? It's perfectly fine to make long prayers, and us Catholics tend to do that in the privacy of a church or home.

>But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking

Indeed. Memorized or written prayers should be said with an honest heart each time.

>And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven

Again, you fail to understand the context of the entire chapter. In the next verse, it states that you should call no one (depending on your Bible translation) teacher/instructor/master; those are titles Protestants use constantly, so you're just as damned as we are going by that logic.

>>830925

>If what I say is true then he really should get out of the cult

How do you know what you say is even true, though? That's just your individual interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.

>That's actually the way to solve this problem and to start obeying scripture

If you want people to start obeying Scripture, then Protestantism isn't the way to go. The Reformation is what led us into the mess we're into today.

>>830933

>Maybe it is possible that one day this person, whether he's a mormon or whatever he is

Ah, what classic two-faced Pharisee behavior: personally attack myself and the Church, and moments later, act as if you don't know who or what I am and act holier-than-thou.

>not fear the judgements of other men around him

Rest assured, your judgemental nonsense doesn't scare me.

>seeking glory only for ourselves (Our Excellencies)

Heretical and prideful behavior, just like referring to ourselves as "Saints" or "saved". Glory not to ourselves, but to God in the highest!

>instead some self-appointed Your Excellencies

Oh, the irony… you just appointed yourself as one in a previous statement. This is one of the reasons why I left the Protestant movement.

>>830937

>If wearing robes is sinful, then Jesus Christ and His apostles committed grave sin.

It says beware of the scribes which desire to long robes in that quote. That is not the same as what you just said it was. I'm pretty sure we all can see this very clearly.

>This is a fine example of why quoting individual verses from Scripture without context is ill-advised.

I quoted three verses there and I gave the context in the previous post. It's a self glorification cult that seeks to replace our Lord and his word with their own manmade sayings, their fallible interpretations of other fallible manmade sayings and so forth. It's a constant avoidance of God and his word. Which is deemed as "dangerous" and not to be read. That's cult-like behavior because it tells people they can only trust certain men wearing hats and having grandiose titles and they shouldn't read or study the word of God, just as many cults teach to do. Someone is disillusioned by that and the cults immediately go into social pressure mode because they can't afford not to. You're going to have to answer to God for keeping people away from Scripture. Trying to send them to some grandiloquent titled man who flagrantly disregards it. You'll have to give an account to a higher authority for discouraging people from Scripture.

>I suppose our Blessed Lord is in great trouble for praying to the point of sweating blood in the Garden, hm?

Are you insinuating that this was for show?

>Indeed. Memorized or written prayers should be said with an honest heart each time.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

>>830937

I will also let you attack me on all the other points because I am only here to defend what our Lord says- through his Word. I would rather be doing nothing else.

The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.

>>830965

Blessed are the peacemakers… You know that you are just an antagonist, spewing vitriol wherever you go, right? All of the other Christians, though they disagree, can exist in charity with one another and sometimes come to a better understanding of the truth. You Baptist flag posters, though? Contentious, mindless drivel and insults all day long. Can't go one single thread without making yourself the Enemy of every authentic Christian. I think the worst part is the severe Dunning-Kruger effect, though. Like, you don't even realize how bad your arguments are and how ridiculous you sound most of the time. It's almost as bad as a fedora-tipper.

>>830905

Call out their logical fallacies.

Maybe the passion to debate people online is merely a passion one has to get rid of - that is, it's a demonic passion.

People are not searching for ideas that can prove a god. I believe their soul aches for real proofs about real events happening in the real world. No one can prove the Resurrection of the Dead through ideas, so what are they for except creating phantasms and shadows?

The Christian life is a real event which can be demonstrated, not justified by other ideas which effortlessly strike us as evident. Only through liturgical involvement can we deepen our faith and convert others.