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File: 63f65ac591d1b10⋯.jpg (18.46 KB, 293x271, 293:271, Reading.jpg)

9894ab  No.830514

I'm interested in learning about the Catholic faith and possibly convert. And I would like to have some suggestions for books to read about faith and theology. I've heard the catechism is a good place to start. Should I get the new edition or the Council of Trent edition?

Thanks.

____________________________
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ed87a0  No.830516

Here's something that will help, especially chapter XII

https://ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

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a3ce23  No.830517

the catechism of trent is more straightforward and pertinent to praxis.

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c4eb81  No.830518

>>830516

And if you've been convinced, I recommend you go down and read Chapter XVIII, by which Quakers are oppressed by Protestants, and by then you will realize that although martyrs and thieves shared the same persecutions at times that did not mean they were sewn from the same cloth.

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847a38  No.830519

File: 21e9da0a4bc58c9⋯.jpg (51.31 KB, 300x473, 300:473, Anatomy_of_Hybrid.jpg)

Read this

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ed87a0  No.830521

>>830518

I know, but who else had someone killed for translating the Bible to English?

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fbd04b  No.830525

Are you looking at Novus Ordo or Latin Rite?

SSPX

The SSPX are old school. Chances are slim you live near one of the five SSPX churches that offer mass every Sunday. There are a number of chapels though.

https://angeluspress.org/

FSSP

The FSSP is Latin mass with a lot of tradition, but if you press them they will conform to the new Pope John Paul II catechism. They're good with the old Baltimore catechism tho.

https://fraternitypublications.com/product-category/education/

Novus Ordo

Don't know anything about these guys. Dancing girls at mass sound interesting. We had a dancing girl for my brother's bachelor party, and she wasn't even as wild as the Pope's.

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18d86a  No.830526

>>830525

I'm not sure why would you uncharitably mischaracterise the mass that the majority of practising Catholics attends. It's unfortunate.

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18d86a  No.830527

>>830514

Any new edition of the catechism is fine, you don't have read Trent's. The problem with the new catechisms is that it has some pastoral, ecumenical language that can be a bit tricky. But there are other catechisms that are more succinct and will teach you all the basics, it all depends on what you're looking for. Trent is probably the best one you can read, you don't have to navigate through pastoral language to get to the heart of Christian action, but I wouldn't disregard the newer catechisms either. If you have no idea of what Catholicism is about, I recommend St. Pius X's catechism, it's brief and to the point.

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fbd04b  No.830532

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18d86a  No.830535

>>830532

>Am I really being unfair?

You are. There are no "trad Catholics" nor "NO Catholics", there are only Catholics. It's quite unfortunate that you're seemingly in Catholicism for aesthetic reasons and not for Truth.

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c4eb81  No.830537

File: 2e2688ff5a9ca78⋯.png (543.43 KB, 631x717, 631:717, DiscerningLawyer.png)

>>830526

>Return the old mass slowly so only a minority of people can enter.

>My new invention is getting a fair and square majority rule here.

>Btw only old cooters like Latin Rite.

Something is off. I can feel it.

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18d86a  No.830545

>>830537

Who are you quoting?

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a3ce23  No.830560

File: ebe60267629538d⋯.jpg (144.13 KB, 893x1360, 893:1360, 710S7NePepL.jpg)

>>830514

The Ways of Mental Prayer by Vitalis Lehodey

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c4eb81  No.830576

>>830545

I can't find the quote after searching in google for quite a few variations of "Old Mass for Old People" and other Tridentine Mass remarks, I've been able to find no source, but its something that got referenced a lot here so it should be fine.

Pope Francis has said that he thinks people that like the Old Mass are just old people.

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fbd04b  No.830579

File: 48e29ffcca81078⋯.png (223.39 KB, 778x720, 389:360, National_Survey_Results_Wh….png)

>>830535

Trad Catholics and N.O. Catholics are two different beliefs e.g. Trad Catholics believe that The Holy Mother Church is the only path to heaven, while New Order Catholics say they are one of the ways to heaven.

Trad Catholics believe that it is sacrilege to take communion in the hand or for the Host to be handled by anyone who isn't at least a deacon. New Order Catholics take it in the hand and pass it around.

There have been schisms over less than this.

And the people who attend these two different religions believe different things.

It is logically absurd to deny that they are different beliefs.

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18d86a  No.830609

>>830576

>Pope Francis has said that he thinks people that like the Old Mass are just old people.

That is entirely his opinion and he can have it since neither form of the Mass is more or less valid than the other.

>>830579

>Trad Catholics and N.O. Catholics are two different beliefs

No, it isn't. You're merely setting up artificial distinctions that do not hold to scrutiny and you are being extremely uncharitable with your fellow brothers in Christ. You know this already, but you're going to keep insisting that it's not because reasons.

>Trad Catholics believe that The Holy Mother Church is the only path to heaven, while New Order Catholics say they are one of the ways to heaven.

Even St. Pius X recognised invincible ignorance. Or isn't he trad enough?

>Trad Catholics believe that it is sacrilege to take communion in the hand or for the Host to be handled by anyone who isn't at least a deacon. New Order Catholics take it in the hand and pass it around.

There is no historical indication that taking communion on the tongue was the orthodox practice, in fact, quite the opposite. Not all parishes have lay people ministering the sacraments too, but you pretend that everyone is doing it and that the problems pertaining to modernism are not contingent on the faithfulness of the priest. Also, the idea of giving the Eucharist on the tongue has to do with avoiding sacrilege, that is people holding on to the consecrated Host and doing things they are not supposed to, which again is something you have to presume ill-intent on your fellow brothers.

>There have been schisms over less than this.

Yes. And they weren't legitimate in the past and they aren't legitimate now.

>And the people who attend these two different religions believe different things.

No, they don't. Unless you're one of those Schrödinger Catholics that don't recognise the Bishop of Rome and you impiously call the Holy Father by his baptism name.

>It is logically absurd to deny that they are different beliefs.

Again, no. It is logically absurd to affirm that Catholics under the same catechism, observing the same orthodoxy, guarding the same traditions and the same deposit of Faith are different religions. It's just pointless, mindless polemics.

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929b8a  No.830615

>>830579

How was this survey conducted?

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c4eb81  No.830624

>>830609

>That is entirely his opinion and he can have it since neither form of the Mass is more or less valid than the other.

Yes, and? I can still refer to it as a argument he unironically used, as I did in >>830537 . So what's the point of, well, pointing out he's allowed to have this opinion?

And actually, thinking about it, no he can't.

He's been talking about how old people have their wisdom and that's a gift which can be used for good. Turning back and calling people that like the Tridentine Mass "old people" actually only undermines himself. Doubly so because he was born in 1936 and he's criticizing a group that is mostly 18 to 30 years old.

>It is logically absurd to affirm that Catholics under the same catechism, observing the same orthodoxy, guarding the same traditions and the same deposit of Faith are different religions.

It is good then that no such thing is being done.

I would reply to your other points but some of it is just aisine nitpicking like

>Even St. Pius X recognised invincible ignorance

Yeah he did and we do. I guess that """contradicts""" saying "The Holy Mother Church is the only path to heaven" because technically there's a exception. One that nobody who hears about should rely on.

>And they weren't legitimate in the past and they aren't legitimate now.

True. Again, and? Point is, you should probably avoid doing things that make people upset unless you have a good reason.

Look at at. Your whole post is concern trolling. When I go to church, or read a Catholic book, they're quite free to point out that the Catholic Layman is apathetic, not properly catechized, and not interested in God, and that a militant Atheist is preferable because they actually care, and many other things. When I come to the /christian/ hole I have to bear people talking about how I'm not being charitable because calling things out as they are and that's rude and unbecoming and how I'm a schismatic. I have nearly no doubt that this is due to online Catholic places being controlled by the odd kinds of people. And before anyone points out nobody here has been banned or deleted, you don't need to be in the moderation team of a place in order to control it. That merely makes it easier.

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18d86a  No.830631

>>830624

>So what's the point of, well, pointing out he's allowed to have this opinion?

What is your point of even bringing it up in the first place? What are you trying to insinuate? Because I'm not following.

>And actually, thinking about it, no he can't.

Oh, I see. The Pope is wrong, isn't he?

>He's been talking about how old people have their wisdom and that's a gift which can be used for good. Turning back and calling people that like the Tridentine Mass "old people" actually only undermines himself. Doubly so because he was born in 1936 and he's criticizing a group that is mostly 18 to 30 years old.

It doesn't matter who the Holy Father is criticising with his hot take. It isn't Church teaching and is an allowable opinion because there are several licit liturgical forms, and he's allowed to have an opinion on it like he's allowed to have crappy hot takes on European football.

>Yeah he did and we do. I guess that """contradicts""" saying "The Holy Mother Church is the only path to heaven" because technically there's a exception. One that nobody who hears about should rely on.

No, there is no "contradiction". There is merely an affirmation that there is a mysterious component to soteriology that will not be resolved by your puny human mind nor your Pharisaical legalisms. Are we clear on this or will you keep qualifying what I have to say as asinine? Behave yourself, young man.

>True. Again, and? Point is, you should probably avoid doing things that make people upset unless you have a good reason.

Then why are you bringing up schism if not to imply the validity of your impiety towards the Holy Father and the Church Councils? You're downplaying your own insinuations to make the most schizophrenic of posts: you don't like the Council and the Council shouldn't exists (even though it was allowed by the Holy Spirit) but the Council is perfectly valid and ecumenical.

>Your whole post is concern trolling.

No. My post is calling you out on your uncharitableness where you mock "Novus Ordo" Christians as if they were a specimen diverse from other Catholics, the kind of thing that I can only imagine is inspired by youthful pride and something that the Lord has not grace me with the patience to not feel repulsed by. And I'm sure that nothing that I will say in this thread or any other will move you to mea culpa, so you will continue to qualify my posts as "asinine" or "concern trolling" in obvious bad faith, but I'm sure you will rationalise it just fine in your mind.

>When I go to church, or read a Catholic book, they're quite free to point out that the Catholic Layman is apathetic, not properly catechized, and not interested in God, and that a militant Atheist is preferable because they actually care, and many other things.

You are a layman. I freely concede that you are probably properly catechised, but you are sill a layman. Do not presume. And what you are bizarrely claiming, perhaps simply in (a successful) attempt to bother me, that militant atheist is preferable to a badly catechised Christian, as if history wasn't rife with these faithful Christians. Positively bizarre.

>When I come to the /christian/ hole I have to bear people talking about how I'm not being charitable because calling things out as they are and that's rude and unbecoming and how I'm a schismatic.

You are rude. And you actually know this, I'm certain. You could actually make an effort to at least be pleasant even if you're incapable of charity, but it amuses you to make these shameful, distasteful "jokes" about dancing girls at mass and presuming you're a better Christian than everyone else. You are called to imitate Christ and I find your behaviour lacking.

>I have nearly no doubt that this is due to online Catholic places being controlled by the odd kinds of people.

What did he mean by this? People you don't agree with?

Learn charity, brother. Stop making unfunny "jokes" about how "Novus Ordo" Christians, the vast majority of practising Christians, are inferior to you. It's unbecoming.

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edf2be  No.830636

Like two bolsheviks arguing over whether Stalin is right. Judgement has come unto you.

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64c489  No.830638

File: e274c9a26140423⋯.jpeg (62.79 KB, 269x415, 269:415, 55DD2EBC_7374_4EBF_AD95_3….jpeg)

>>830514

Hi OP, another good start is the Early church fathers. Find a book with the Epistle of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians, Polycarp’s spistle, and the 7 epistles of St Ignatius of Antioch. I have a book simply called “Early Christian Writings” which has all of those and other key texts of the early church

Or them here at: http://newadvent.org/fathers/ an absolute treasure trove of Catholic writings

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757dd3  No.830639

I say that you should read the catechism of St. Pius X, as it is more addressed for the lay man and not too technical like the Trent one, and less ambiguous than the JPII one. And I highly recommend to search for a Tridentine Mass if you can, even if it is a bit far. I don't want to turn this into a conflict NO vs TLM but I do recommend you to go to a TLM.

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edf2be  No.830640

The pope sits on a blood-stained and iniquitous throne. The cries of untold millions of wrongfully accused Christians bearing true witness cries out against them and their falsehoods even now. If only you could hear them now. The stench of iniquity and guilt on the papal throne is overwhelming. Their judgement is ascended all the way up to God in heaven, their judgement is ascended high above the clouds. Escape while you can, unless you want to be likewise caught in their judgement.

For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.

Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and stablisheth a city by iniquity!

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c4eb81  No.830641

>>830631

The time to stop posting has come.

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edf2be  No.830645

>>830640

>If only you could hear them now.

Oh yeah and it's not like I can hear them now or anything, but I know they are there because that's what God's word says.

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18d86a  No.830647

>>830641

I have said nothing that shames me, brother.

I do not presume I am the better of my brothers.

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edf2be  No.830649

>>830518

Interesting article. It's sadly the case that baptists were persecuted for no reason by Protestants at various times just as they had been by earlier state churches. Even in the American colonies, the state church in Boston tried to imprison one of the early baptists there who later founded Providence, RI. He also established in that colony via the charter he obtained a state entirely separated from the church, a concept that made it into the U.S. Constitution in the First Amendment. The more you know.

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c4eb81  No.830650

>>830647

No. Your entire debating style is trying to annoy your opponent into submission.

I don't even know what you said in >>830631 because I haven't read half of it, I just got a feeling that the rest of the post would be more of the same.

>What is your point of even bringing it up in the first place? What are you trying to insinuate? Because I'm not following.

>It doesn't matter who the Holy Father is criticising with his hot take. It isn't Church teaching and is an allowable opinion because there are several licit liturgical forms, and he's allowed to have an opinion on it like he's allowed to have crappy hot takes on European football.

I can't interpret >>830537 for you, and besides its not that hard. Coupled with >>830609 containing mostly non-replies, mostly due to misunderstandings of the text, I am not very encouraged to continue this discussion.

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edf2be  No.830651

>>830615

Not sure, but I'm also not sure why Roman Catholics think they are entitled to the exclusive use of the descriptor.

The results on what amount people think they should be tithing are very disappointing however, because God asks for a tenth and anything less is actually taking from God.

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18d86a  No.830662

>>830650

>No. Your entire debating style is trying to annoy your opponent into submission.

You are entitled to that opinion, brother. I have argued that I had to say to my full satisfaction.

>I am not very encouraged to continue this discussion.

This is also perfectly acceptable.

PAX.

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fbd04b  No.830746

>>830651

>God asks for a tenth and anything less is actually taking from God.

God has Charity, of course. The penny from the poor woman means more than the shekel from the rich man.

Rather heartless to think you have to buy your way into heaven.

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fbd04b  No.830747

>>830609

I point out that Trad Catholics and N.O. Catholics have different beliefs and give examples. You ignore it all and just state that they believe the same and wrap your argument ad nausium in an ad hom.

I'm not convinced, nor would anyone be convinced by this argument who eschews the use of fallacies.

>Even St. Pius X…

Don't you dare. How's that oath against Modernism working out, Modernist?

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7f8841  No.830759

>>830651

The tithe is not a command to the Church, only offerings. Ten percent is a good standard.

https://youtu.be/FnDKgXCHfGU

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ed87a0  No.830760

>>830651

Why did Jesus tell the rich young man to sell everything, but didn't say that to Zacchaeus?

You know the letter of the law, but not the heart.

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ed87a0  No.830761

>>830651

Then why did Jesus tell the rich young man to sell everything he had and didn't say that to Zacchaeus?

You know the letter of the law, but not the heart.

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8a867b  No.830762

>>830514

>And I would like to have some suggestions for books to read about faith and theology

Well, not a good translation of the bible, because catholic beliefs are unbiblical. I don't even know why a /christian/ board would have so many catlicks

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18d86a  No.830776

>>830747

>I point out that Trad Catholics and N.O. Catholics have different beliefs and give examples.

Same catechism. You are objectively wrong.

> You ignore it all and just state that they believe the same and wrap your argument ad nausium in an ad hom.

Ad hom? Like your petty insinuations that there are two species of Catholics? One that is perfectly fine and orthodox and another that is deficient because he attends the wrong Mass?

>I'm not convinced, nor would anyone be convinced by this argument who eschews the use of fallacies.

I am not being fallacious. Catholics, by the very definition of the word, are all under the same Church teaching. Or are you not Catholic? Because I really don't understand what you're arguing here.

>How's that oath against Modernism working out, Modernist?

What were you saying about ad hominem, brother?

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edf2be  No.830785

>>830760

I think you're reading massively into my comment. I haven't actually given anything until after the tenth that belongs to the Lord. People always like to jump on that comment because they can signal how woke they are, but it's true. Please attack me all you want, but it's true.

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fbd04b  No.831021

File: f6e784d2ad94763⋯.jpg (60.32 KB, 325x478, 325:478, John_Paul_II_with_naked_pa….jpg)

File: 84ee285f654df78⋯.jpg (54.11 KB, 964x641, 964:641, pope_francis_hides_the_cru….jpg)

File: 0a412ef3d58af65⋯.jpg (484.94 KB, 640x696, 80:87, pope_francis_and_his_pacha….jpg)

>>830776

Trad catholics use catechisms like the Catechism of the Council of Trent (lay people my only take the Eucharist on the tongue) while N.O. use and abuse the Catechism of Pope John Paul II.

These are different in many ways. They are not the same "Catechism" and they teach different things in many important ways.

>Ad hom? Like your petty insinuations that there are two species of Catholics?

I made the argument that there are two major branches of Catholicism by showing how they differ in belief and in teaching.

Your attacks against me are ad hom fallacies: attacks against me instead of my argument.

It is Trad Catholic dogma and in the old catechisms that it is a mortal sin to take part in any non-Catholic religious service. I don't think that the Novus ordo believe that, because of Popes like John Paul II and Frances comparing the Holy Mother Church to pagan religions.

>What were you saying about ad hominem, brother?

I asked you what you thought of the fact that all who take religious vows have to make an oath against modernism, and yet they break that vow and are openly modernist.

Asking you how this is justified is not an attack on you or any other person. I'm pointing out that Popes like Frances and John Paul II have trashed that vow. If you think that's false, show how they are not modernists.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10moath.htm

They took an oath that Church teaching cannot change.

< I also reject the error of those who say that the faith held by the Church can contradict history, and that Catholic dogmas, in the sense in which they are now understood, are irreconcilable with a more realistic view of the origins of the Christian religion.

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7aea02  No.833775

>>830519

What is this about?

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8c04b3  No.833777

>>833775

A Crucial Book for Modern Christians Struggling with Church and State

An interesting, and not so well developed, area of Christian theology is the relationship between the Church and the State. This runs parallel to the relationship between the Christian and the State, of course, but along a different path -how should believers relate to the power of the State as a group? Should the Church co-opt the power of the state to enforce Christian morality? Or should the Church merely try to influence the State through direct action and cultural shift? There are two contending views within the modern Christian Church, one which says the Church should try to attain and wield the levers of power to enact social justice and Christian virtue, the other which says the Christian Church should stand apart from the State, exerting influence, but not trying to grasp the power of the State for itself.

Leonard Verduin presents the case for a church that stands apart from the State, exerting influence, but not attempting to control the levers of power to enforce any ideas of morality, in The Anatomy of a Hybrid. What's interesting is that he does so not in the context of the modern world, but in the context of a study of the Constantinian Synthesis, the melding of the Church and State under the Holy Roman Empire. This book is, in a sense, an adjunct to his fine work The Reformers and Their Stepchildren.

The model he takes for his study is the incident of Genesis 6, when the daughters of men marry the sons of god. While this incident isn't well understood in a larger sense, he takes it as a wedding of convenience between two things that ought not be wed -the Church and the State. He begins by describing the ideals of a sacral society.

"In a sacral society one's religion is a matter of course, determined by one's inclusion in the societal unit. A sacral society is held together by sacrament. It has a shrine to which each member of that society is oriented, and it has a specified deportment before that shrine, deportment that is essentially sacramental in character. In fact, it may be said that the basic function of sacrament in such a sacral society is the tying together of the societal unit. Sacrament properly understood is a device whereby an already existing togetherness allegedly becomes a religious togetherness." -Page 11

The author goes to a good deal of trouble to show how this combination of religion and State has worked throughout history, drawing examples from the Scriptures as well as many well-known ancient writers. He specifically focuses on the situation in Rome, under which the Church came to begin, and the roots of its sacral condition.

After examining the concept of a sacral social structure, Verduin then goes on to examine how the writings of the Apostles and contemporaries describe the Church. Was it a part of society, or did it hold itself separate? He shows that, from the beginning, one of the accusations against Christians has been their lack of idols, settled houses of worship, public rites, and public meetings. He then turns to the idea of mission, and what mission must mean in a sacral society. If a nation can be saved, then what is the purpose of mission? It must only be to those in other nations.

Verduin argues that these two ideas alone rule out the idea of Church melded with State. There is no way to make sense of the idea of separate worship in the tradition of the Church, nor of the idea of a mission, if the Church and State are to be one. He also argues that so long as the Church insists on trying to meld itself into the warp and woof of the state, there is no way for the Church to see the State clearly; there is no way to develop a solid and lasting theology of the State, nor to see the relationship between the State and Christians aright.

Verduin has put together a masterful study of the relationship between Church and State -this is an important book for any Christian serious about understanding modern politics in reference to Church/State relationships to read.

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fbd04b  No.833787

>>830521

Nobody. He opposed the King's divorce, the King went after him so he fled to Catholic Europe.

The King demanded he be extradited by treaty. Instead, a deal was cut and the Catholics got the blame.

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