/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Did you just watch a 5 minute video by NT Wright on youtube or something?

How about this:

You keep doing your works and I'll keep doing what I'm doing and seeing miracles? Deal? Deal.

And yes, it would make sense because Paul at the time was converting from a Pharisee who believed they could be perfect. So, he had to deal with the conflict that came from whether or not he knows he is saved from damnation by the blood of Jesus or whether he was having to work with no guarantee to get the salvation.

Most of you people who take potshots at Luther are too high and mighty to actually take the time to understand the argument at hand and twist it.

I'll say this, having to confess to the priest that you did the same sin again goes a long ways towards stopping you from sinning. The protestant belief (if there are core protestant beliefs, each denomination can be vastly different than the rest) that they can confess straight to God does little to cause contrition for sin.

>ib4 Not my denomination.

yeah, I know.

>>829919

>having to confess to the priest that you did the same sin again goes a long ways towards stopping you from sinning

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Hebrews 10:1-4

This video explains the Catholic view, saved by grace through faith.

We'll still be measured by our works: "For He will render to every man according to his works"

And we will constantly have works if we are cooperating with grace:

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life."

These good works that God prepared for us are in themselves a grace he bestows and rejecting it can risk salvation as we see when Jesus tells the pharisees that although they say they are the sons of Abraham they dont do the works of Abraham so they are the sons of the devil. Meaning they dont cooperate with grace, they dont do the will of God, and are basically hell bound if they stay on that course.

Hence that James letter focusing on the subject of a dead faith without works saying that even demons believe in God, so one better start doing God's will.

This is where our free will and merit enters, choosing to do God's will and cooperate with grace.

'Sola gratia' would be more correct since faith is also a gift and consequence of grace which we did not merit.

>>829932

>This video explains the Catholic view

I'd rather have the Biblical view, as I know this is what God endorses. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater.

>>829932

>This is where our free will and merit enters, choosing to do God's will and cooperate with grace.

This is the point where you go wrong. Doing good works isn't cooperating with grace, that's a contradiction with "not of works" in Ephesians. It would mean that your works play a part in your salvation.

Instead of "cooperating with", the works are done in obedience to God and in response to grace.

The smoothbrain Catholic objection to sola fide is offering a non sequitur here that rejecting the role of human works in salvation means rejecting good works.

Roman Catholic: saved by grace, stay saved by works

Protestant: saved by grace, stay saved by grace

>We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone. - R.C. Sproul

>>829943

>The smoothbrain Catholic

There you go. Exactly the kind of Christian fellowship offered by our Protestant brothers.

>>829945

I didn't say all Catholics are smoothbrain, I'm just illustrating one common non-argument.

There are of course smoothbrain Protestants likewise.

I'd like to also observe the Catholic victim mentality around here lately. Look at the OP and look at the comment I made. Which one is less charitable? Really getting my noggin joggin.

>>829938

biblical and Catholic, same thing for me, not for you. We are in a multi-theology forum so i specified out of courtesy.

>>829943

Works are a kind of grace prepared for us as the verse says,'which God prepared in advance as our way of life.' We didtn earn the opportunities that will befall us to do good.

So saying we stay saved by works is the same as stay saved by grace, its all God.

But we can disobey because we have free will and we might prefer to do our will or the works of the devil instead. Its a battle of wills hence 'But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.'

Doesnt mean we are doomed forever when we inevitably fail, we can repent thanks to His unfathomable mercy and be saved regardless. But the more we follow God's will the greater the reward will be.

God is mercy but also justice who renders according to works.

I dont think its a contradiction. If you are fallign and someone extends his hand to you and you take it to be pulled up its him doing the saving even though you chose to take it. You arent going to boast about having cooperated with the offer. You'll forever be thankful for having been saved. Yet you did have to do a decision.

If we dont take the hand, dont repent, then we actively reject grace and salvation.

Protestants generally seem to be commandment breakers.

>>829951

>So saying we stay saved by works is the same as stay saved by grace, its all God.

Explicit contradiction with Paul in Ephesians 2

>>829956

Such as?

>>829943

Good works are a result of grace, but we have the ability to choose between grace or sin. We have free will. We don't believe humanity was completely deprived in the fall, so at the forefront you're already bringing your Protestant assumptions to the table. Now we agree man cannot come to God on his own, ultimately it is God who initiates the process of salvation, but we have the ability to respond to God's calling or not. This is why James says faith without works is dead. Sure you can continue to believe in God, even the demons believe in one God and shudder (James 2:19). But the demons do not follow God's commandments, they hate God and rejected his grace at the beginning and now are totally outside of his grace. When you have no works you fall into sin and thus fall away from the saving grace of God. But if you choose to respond to his grace then you have salvation. Whoever keeps the whole law but breaks even a single commandment is guilty of it all (James 2:10). This is why Christ himself tell us, "So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20) The laws Christ lays out is the "law of liberty (James 2:12), it is the new covenant.

>>829952

>quotes Philippians 2:13

Notice how Paul says before that verse. "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," and then four verses later, "holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain." This shows that, once again, you're bringing your own theological Protestant assumptions to the text (which according to your own logic is against sola scriptura). Paul never says God compels us to do good works or that somehow we become completely sealed even if we decide to fall away from God, we must cooperate with what God wants to accomplish through us, lest we fall away and become damned so that those who brought us to Christ may have labored in vain.

>>829972

>We don't believe humanity was completely deprived in the fall, so at the forefront you're already bringing your Protestant assumptions to the table.

I agree and no I haven't

>When you have no works you fall into sin and thus fall away from the saving grace of God

If you have no works, then you don't have salvation.

>But if you choose to respond to his grace then you have salvation.

Yes, if by "respond to his grace" you mean repent and believe

Your role is to prove exegetically that works are causally related to maintaining salvation, rather than an indicator following salvation.

>>829986

You're correctly clarifying a Protestant misconception about the roman catholic doctrine of salvation but you're not addressing the real definition of sola fide.

Like it says in your quote from Trent, the RCC position is that works contribute to your salvation alongside grace. This is what Protestantism objects to, and it doesn't mean a rejection of the necessity of works. You are making a false connection in the second post that affirming the inseparability of works with saving faith means believing salvation is conditioned upon those works.

>>829908

>but Paul said it was through faith in Christ, not conversion to Judaism, that justifies the gentile in the new covenant.

When he talked about "works", he didn't just mean the law of Moses. That's just one form of works. Cain tried to justify himself by works too, and he was reprimanded because his works lacked true faith--hence why he provided the wrong sacrifice. He thought that just any sacrifice of labor would do, and so he missed the entire point of the sacrifice because his heart wasn't in it. Whereas Abel's sacrifice was accepted because his heart was in it. It wasn't the sacrifice that justified him... It was his faith, which lead to his obedience. À la James 2, "faith without works is dead." True faith leads to true works because action is the evidence of belief.

The question then becomes "what are true works?" Are those works the works prescribed by Rome's sacremental system? You say yes, we say no. We haven't agreed on this for several centuries and we're not going to agree now.

Paul also laid out his doctrine of salvation at the end of Romans 8 and into Romans 9. See >>827800 and feel free to provide a counter-interpretation there.

>Seriously the entire doctrine of sola fide rests on the interpretation of an overly scrupulous monk in the 16th century

Because there was no one prior to Luther who believed that they were justified by faith alone, right? Come on...

>>829962

Why? He says God saves you by grace and then lays out works for you to participate.

Meaning a first grace with zero participation of ours, a full gift of God.

And later opportunities to associate ourselves with the works He laid out for us to do. Still fully His initiative and his merit, so a grace, but in His mercy and because He made us in his image with free will, He lets us choose to grow in sanctification or not.

This is hard, its the spiritual warfare, that's why Paul tells us to put on God's armor and battle on agaisnt the powers, thrones, etc.

If we dont have to do/choose anything why do we need an armor or to 'fear and tremble'.

>>829952

My video was the take of the oldest Christianity how can it be pop. And the bible does command you to take heed of tradition either by letter of spoken word so you should obey the command and listen to the tradition that was passed down on us.

>>829996

>Why?

Because "not of works"

>then lays out works for you to participate.

What reason do you have to think the works are participatory in salvation?

>>829972

>We don't believe humanity was completely deprived in the fall,

Are you representing Pelagians?

>even the demons believe in one God and shudder

So do Arians, Islam, etc.

Try reading the fuller context of James 2:14-26 and then realize the bigger picture. James is, of course, not contradicting Paul.

>When you have no works you fall into sin and thus fall away from the saving grace of God.

Right but when we have the works of God then we are saved.

<Philippians 1:6— Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

>Whoever keeps the whole law but breaks even a single commandment is guilty of it all (James 2:10).

Right, exactly! We have the righteousness of God in Christ.

<2 Corinthians 5:21— For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

>That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Exactly right. And how glorious is the righteousness of Christ that in no point was he ever found guilty.

<Same Gospel: But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

>>829973

>Notice how Paul says before that verse. "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,"

Yes, and it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13. In other words, God works in all of those that are ordained to eternal life. We cannot do it our selves. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6.

<Eccl. 5:1— Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

<For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

>"holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain."

Of course we are holding fast to the word of life, which is also the same word that has been quoted here by me many times as well.

Paul also said in 1 Corinthians 15:10 that it is not he that works, but the grace of God in him. And also, that by grace we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. And also, that boasting is excluded by the law of faith. So then it is not I that truly work good, but God only. The same goes for Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:10 and Philippians 2:13. It is God which worketh in us, not we. Amen.

>>829995

>Paul also laid out his doctrine of salvation at the end of Romans 8 and into Romans 9.

Exactly, all that is needed here is to have knowledge of the holy Scriptures, that which was of the apostles that God commissioned, to know these things. The ravenous wolves have always tried to obscure those things by whatever means in them lie.

1 Timothy 1:13-14

>Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Jude v. 3

>Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

>>829922

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.

- James 5:15

>>830067

>"Preserved in perfect purity"

>Posts bible that literally misspells and mispronounces God's name (no "Jah" and "Vah" sounds in ancient Hebrew bro)

"God's word" isn't your lite-version of the bible. It's the message contained in the bible, the church, and the church magistrate.

But then again, most of the church (1.2 Billion Catholics vs. <900 Million Protestants) is using the WHOLE bible - the one that's not missing 7 inter-testament books. So, by your logic, you're using the wrong bible and God's word is preserved in the versions with the 7 books - and with the Catholic church.

If you think your bible is perfect, why is God's name misspelled and mispronounced in your bible? Why wasn't the correct pronunciation preserved?

Why does your bible say "God creates evil"?

Why did Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 stress to keep his ORAL traditions, and not just what was written down?

I don't know…

I, a Catholic try to keep keep impure thoughts out of my thoughts and my Pentecostal buddy brags about his visits to Mexico and the cheap child prostitutes there, saying he buys them from their mothers. Then when he sees I disapprove my Pentecostal bro tells me how I'm going to hell and he's saved.

I've given up trying to pry the hands of protestants from their love of sin.

And if it wasn't for Freemason protestants infiltrating the Catholic Church, the Great Apostasy would never have happened.

Martin Luther, regardless of his intent or the sins of the clergy, did the work of the Devil.

Now, please tell me about some Gay priest who wouldn't be allowed in the Clergy before Vatican II rapes little boys.

>>830120

>Why did Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 stress to keep his ORAL traditions, and not just what was written down?

Already answered. Note what Paul says in the same epistle, &c.

>>830137

>And if it wasn't for Freemason protestants infiltrating the Catholic Church, the Great Apostasy would never have happened.

They infiltrated it back in the fourth century. That's how you get paedo-baptist manmade traditions. Fortunately, not all have succumbed nor bowed the knee to Baal on this issue. Hence, pure church, and pure scriptures, still exist in an unbroken line just as our Lord prophesied. Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 24:35.

>Now, please tell me about some Gay priest

The crime against nature is a crime not even fit to be named among men. I wouldn't allege such things for 'it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.' (Ephesians 5:12)

>>830149

“Paul wasn’t talking about church tradition in 2 Thessalonians 2:15”

Except that every surviving homily from the early church, for hundreds and even thousands of years, interpreted it that way.

>>830183

>“Paul wasn’t talking about church tradition in 2 Thessalonians 2:15”

Did someone say this or are you replying to another thread?