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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 4630115da5ba478⋯.jpg (122.07 KB, 640x640, 1:1, 1503106366578.jpg)

685baf  No.829659

I'm losing my faith. Hard. I cannot worship a God that is so arbitrary.

And it is, when you get down to it, so incredibly arbitrary. From our existence, to the rules we are supposed to live by (whether they are good for us or not), to free will (it does ultimately fall on God, our existence, whether you are a Calvinist, or a Catholic, it doesn't matter), to what shapes our will. When you chase any of these subjects down, it eventually ends up as "yeah well we can't really know but God says so", which offends every sense of justice I was raised to have. ALL denominations are flagrantly guilty of this and frankly, I don't see any way out.

Anyway, not really expecting any answers to come from this. I'm just….I'm out guys. I'm done. I'm not happy about it, but I feel like I've reached the end of the line.

I hope you guys have good lives.

____________________________
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15d6a1  No.829660

Huh?

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fe2e37  No.829661

>>829659

>I'm losing my faith. Hard. I cannot worship a God that is so arbitrary.

Place faith in God and not in anything else. It says in Hebrews 11:6 that whoever comes to God "must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

>When you chase any of these subjects down, it eventually ends up as "yeah well we can't really know but God says so",

That's because our capacity is so limited and the Lord is not limited by this.

>which offends every sense of justice I was raised to have.

Will the thing that is formed say "why have I been made thus?" Is it enough to be given whatever good we have been? wilt thou condemn him that is most just?

Learn to accept that you did not make yourself. Learn that that which is greater than you has been sustaining you. If this is so, why have you not already chosen to trust in him who gave for you? To believe in his greater justice, in his greater merits? Have you not been convinced by seeing his creations? God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

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685baf  No.829664

>>829661

>Place faith in God and not in anything else.

Why?

>It says in Hebrews 11:6 that whoever comes to God "must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

What grounds do I have to believe this?

I have diligently searched, for years now. At the end, I only have more, and deeper, more serious, fundamental questions than where I began. What am I, a rational being with an intelligence, supposed to infer from this?

>Will the thing that is formed say "why have I been made thus?"

YES. Literally, what is wrong with this? I see this argument all the time, and nobody every is able to answer, morally, why it is wrong for a created being, created under a certain set of rules, guidelines, and moralities, to ask why? To want to understand more?

>Is it enough to be given whatever good we have been?

When one asks, sincerely asks, no, it is not enough. If we were created in this world, it is only fair and just for the creator to endow us with the knowledge to operate fairly in this world. ESPECIALLY if that Creator is to judge us in the future. If we do not know the parameters of what we will be judged by, how is it just to judge us? To say nothing of the inherent arbitrariness of those parameters?

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5ca577  No.829669

>>829664

I'm not saying you're reprobate or anything but since this universe is both strictly deterministic and imperfect God literally cannot save everyone. Even a third of the angels became demons. I was like you when I was a kid, calling out to God but getting no answer. When I got older things changed. Maybe you're just not in the right state of mind yet and God would get less friction helping others until you're eventually in a state where he decides you're ready.

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663b68  No.829670

>>829659

So, let's start back from the beginning. I don't think there is anything arbitrary about God and I do think we can know the heart of God. What he does has meaning and is for a reason. In Isaiah 1:18 it says, "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD…" In that spirit, let us reason.

We see the story of Jonah. We see he was called to go to Ninevah, but instead he ran away. He was swallowed by the whale and then went to Ninevah and told them to repent. Jonah then sulks, he was angry because he knew the heart of God and that the people wouldn't be destroyed.

Further, we see that David wanted to build a temple for God when he was only in the the tent. He hadn't told anyone, yet David knew what it was God wanted. He knew the heart of God.

We can go through plenty more examples, but I've established enough to show we can know God's heart and that then argues he's not arbitrary.

Now, it looks like you're wondering about predestination and that stuff. Personally, I fall in line with the belief of molonism. I'm about 80/20 free will/predestination. Now, I don't think these are arbitrary numbers or determinations. I think God will put those who will come to know him in position, knowing their actions, that they may have a chance to know him if they would. Now, we know it's not entirely that because if Sodom had seen the miracles Capernaum did, they would've repented.

So, are there some that are raised up to be destroyed? Yes, Romans 9 is clear. But what do we, the clay pots, say to the potter who made us? It is hard to reconcile this. It's not an easy endeavor, some will die, though others won't, but what does that say about us who were chosen and get to know God? It says we are infinitely lucky. That God has chosen us before the foundations of the world to be apart of his story, to know Him, who created everything! That is absolutely mind-boggling. Why would we be chosen? Why would I? I fail constantly. Daily. Hourly. And yet, despite it all, he chose me? And to leave his throne to die for me? And we get to live life with Him. We get to have fun. He invites us to it and I'll tell you, I've had plenty of fun. I am so thankful. It's amazing. God is good!

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3fafeb  No.829672

>>829659

>it eventually ends up as "yeah well we can't really know but God says so

Read more apologetics and you'll see that this isn't the case.

https://youtu.be/DxQJgh3YOR8

Your pessimism seems to me to be based on a false idea that the issue of man's salvation is either divine determinism or natural determinism and the individual has no agency.

>>829664

>why it is wrong for a created being, created under a certain set of rules, guidelines, and moralities, to ask why?

That wasn't Paul's point with the rhetorical question. It's a statement about knowing your place and not being petulant against the almighty God, not genuinely asking the question. Read on, "who are you…"

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577d44  No.829706

God made you.

The Almighty started the process of making you 15 billion years ago. He made the sub atomic particles out of nothing, he formed them into atoms, changed the atoms into heavier elements.

His finger pushed the creation of earth, the DNA in every cell in your body.

And He created your mind.

You don't think he's logical enough.

Excuse me? I mean, the whole of his creation is logical. You just don't understand and you don't need to understand. Just follow his religion. No, it doesn't have to make sense to you! Just follow it.

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fe2e37  No.829713

File: 5ed7ef78d694444⋯.jpg (113.04 KB, 590x332, 295:166, 0002b.jpg)

>>829664

>Place faith in God and not in anything else.

>Why?

This is my thesis here. The reasons follow from doing so, from the reasons I have so far given and from realizing that we all put faith in something, but only one is worthy of that faith but all else eventually fails. This is also framed to point to the truth that it's not a matter of "losing faith," but of repeatedly placing faith in the wrong thing and then being shaken.

>What grounds do I have to believe this?

See pic. He that is of God hears God's words. The Lord is nigh unto all that call upon him in truth. With God, all things are possible. See Luke 11:9-13.

>I have diligently searched, for years now. At the end, I only have more, and deeper, more serious, fundamental questions than where I began.

Good that you have diligently searched. You will be rewarded according to your search.

But I ask you, is this really the end? It seems to me that there's still time left, for some reason.

>What am I, a rational being with an intelligence, supposed to infer from this?

"Must" implies that those who believe this will be allowed to come to God and otherwise not.

>YES. Literally, what is wrong with this?

Because it is out of order.

>I see this argument all the time, and nobody every is able to answer, morally, why it is wrong for a created being, created under a certain set of rules, guidelines, and moralities, to ask why?

To ask for understanding is the right thing to do. We should beg and plead to learn knowledge in prayer. But to question the basis when it is beyond our capacity to understand the full premises for decisions is out of order. A true superior is not receiving anything out of my hand and likewise has no need for my poorly informed, fallible cross-examinations. I don't even fully understand all the things the Lord does. So all I am best able to do is patiently trust in God. This is the way things were made to be.

>If we were created in this world, it is only fair and just for the creator to endow us with the knowledge to operate fairly in this world.

If we ask for it.

>If we do not know the parameters of what we will be judged by, how is it just to judge us?

See pic. That which we are to be judged by has been with us. And those who seek will be, according to their search, given its understanding.

And it says the following:

The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.

The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.

Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.

Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.

Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.

Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

— 1 John 5:10-11

I pray that my posting helps in some way.

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8bc204  No.829715

tl;dr OP has apostatised because he rejects the fact that no matter where he looks, he sees that God is in charge of all

truly they went out from from us, for they were never one of us

imagine being so affronted by the idea that the God who is The First, the sole self-subsistent One, and therefore the prime mover to and dictator of all rules that govern the creation He made - including morality - would dare to assert His authority by saying 'do this because I said so'

imagine being such a rebel as to see this quite clearly and still throw the fist up to the heavens and say 'no, i will determine what is right and wrong'

OP will be judged for the rejection of the light he has been given - just as Adam died for his rebellion - and OP will inherit the reward of his father whom he follows in the footsteps of, namely satan; who also so rebelled and for whom is reserved the eternal lake of fire

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44a8b0  No.829740

>>829670

>So, are there some that are raised up to be destroyed? Yes, Romans 9 is clear.

And how is this just in any way towards them? I always see reformed try to do this, say "well, God gave them free will, so it isn't really Gods fault", and frankly, thats just passing the buck. If I did something similar, I would absolutely have culpability in how it turned out. Why is God allowed a pass in this?

>>829672

>Your pessimism seems to me to be based on a false idea that the issue of man's salvation is either divine determinism or natural determinism and the individual has no agency.

Yeah, because I don't see how a God that is completely omniscient AND omnipotent can ever NOT be the cause of a soul going hell. no matter how you define things.

>>829706

wow big argument bro.

>>829715

you have no idea what you are talking about, yet you talk a big game anyway. This is pretty typical.

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663b68  No.829741

>>829740

>And how is this just in any way towards them? I always see reformed try to do this, say "well, God gave them free will, so it isn't really Gods fault", and frankly, thats just passing the buck. If I did something similar, I would absolutely have culpability in how it turned out. Why is God allowed a pass in this?

At some point a humbling must take place and you haven't hit that. He's God, there is no passing the buck. He did it and he also created everyone and everything.

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e9d8be  No.829742

Read the gospel of John.

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3fafeb  No.829744

>>829740

>Yeah, because I don't see how a God that is completely omniscient AND omnipotent can ever NOT be the cause of a soul going hell. no matter how you define things.

Free will

Have you read mere christianity? I linked the audiobook already.

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7fb8d6  No.830050

Ultimately, no matter what worldview you subscribe to, it will always be completely arbitrary. But Christian morals are most conducive to prosperity on the national scale.

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0e24d2  No.830054

>>829659

>which offends every sense of justice I was raised to have

And how are they any less arbitrary?

If I wanted to I could "deconstruct" morality as a whole by autisticly asking why until you couldn't provide an answer. If you aren't willing to accept some things as being self-evident then you cannot believe morality to be anything more that a personal preference when broken down to it's most fundamental level

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82bfac  No.830129

I suppose you know better than the Church

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