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File: 3b82b409bbc9d53⋯.jpg (278.79 KB, 1783x774, 1783:774, reading_the_Early_Church_F….jpg)

6f3034  No.828917[Last 50 Posts]

I love and respect my brothers who are drawn to traditional Catholicism. I love that TLM is helping people have a visceral engagement and how it's conservatism is inspiring people to live socially moral lives. But since the feast of St. Peter's chair a few weeks ago, I've been thinking a lot about how "Catholic" this movement really is. And I'm sorry to say, that after studying Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic church, this movement ultimately seems like straight up Protestantism.

Let's break the staples of "Trad-Cats" and see how Catholic these things really are.

>Rejection of Vatican II (and or Vatican I)

- Rejecting a church council opens the door for infinite heresy. If you reject Vatican II, why not reject the council of Nincea II like John Calvin did? If you believe the Holy Spirit is with the church since Acts, you have to believe he was in all of the church councils from Jerusalem on. Saying "this council was invalid" blah blah blah is basically saying "the Holy Spirit is not infallible, or was not with the church." which makes you equally valid to the Lutherans and Anglicans, and every other group that rejected Trent.

- Ultimately, people reject this council because they love their political views more than Christ, the church magistrate, and the Catholic faith. "It was better before Trent" is just code for saying "it was better when the church looked more like my current political views and pandered more to my nation" What do you love more, Christ, the church, or your country and your idealistic cultural views?

>Public Whining About the Pope

- Do you really think ancient Catholics went broadcasting anti-Papist views in public like you do, just because the pope says things that are inconvenient to them? Do you think they'd be allowed communion if they did so? Do you think they'd be allowed to even live in many eras? The Catechism specifically condemns public slander of the pope and church magistrate. What makes you think you're above the Catechism and Catholic teaching? What makes you think your opinion matters so much?

- Do you realize why the pope doesn't act in your country/race/politics's best interest? It's because your race, nation, and culture got too smart for Christianity. So why shouldn't he flood America with good Mexican Catholic families and Europe with good African Catholics now that the West is chopping off it's own d—s?

>Communion on tongue

- Ok, there is sufficient eveidence that none of the church fathers did this. And nobody for hundreds of years did this. So the church fathers somehow botched communion for hundreds of years?

>Anti Ecumenism

- The bible is clear that the church must be one body. If a CHURCH COUNCIL decided "we don't need to stick our heads up are ass, we can to strive to bring or separated brothers back according to apostolic teaching" why are you clinging to the words of one or two popes that were uttered hundreds of years ago? Why are you clinging to this Baptist-like super-elitism instead of working to spread the beauty of Catholic faith to your separated Christian brothers?

tl;dr, "Trad Catholicism" = "I love my elitist political and racial views more than the Catholic faith." Hey if you want to reject the papacy, church councils, magistrate, tradition, God bless ya. But know that you're just another protestant movement.

____________________________
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af007c  No.828925

>>828917

>Rejecting a church council opens the door for infinite heresy.

The Council of Ariminum was called in 359 and declared Arian heresy. It was called by the emperor and state church of Rome and was one of the catholic councils. So I suppose you think whoever rejected this council just "opened the door" for heresy" then, right? The Arians also used this argument.

Also you act like something other than Scripture is incorruptible and infallible. That's not what Scripture says.

>Do you really think ancient Catholics went broadcasting anti-Papist views in public like you do

Sure.

“Recorded in the year 900. Tergandus, Bishop of Trier: calls the Pope of Rome, the Antichrist, a Wolf, and [calls] Rome Babylon, a usurper of the ruler, a deceiver of Christians.”

from: Samuel Veltius, Gheslacht-Register, Van der Roomscher Pausen Successie, p. 128.

>The Catechism specifically condemns public slander of the pope and church magistrate. What makes you think you're above the Catechism and Catholic teaching?

Ok couple things here. First off, how about the word of God being above anything manmade? What about it being the only thing incorruptible? Why are we ignoring this again, remind me?

>So why shouldn't he flood America with good Mexican Catholic families and Europe with good African Catholics now that the West is chopping off it's own d—s?

Isaiah 10:12-13

I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:

>So the church fathers somehow botched communion for hundreds of years?

Sorry who? I'm too busy reading what the apostles are telling me. After all, that's what Paul told us to do, whether by word or by epistle!

2 Timothy 3:13-14

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

>The bible is clear that the church must be one body.

Indeed. As the apostle Paul said to the Corinthians "ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." Not "we are the body," including himself, but to the Corinthians, "ye are the body."

>why are you clinging to the words of one or two popes that were uttered hundreds of years ago?

They are probably doing this because they can interpret manmade sayings however they want and choose which ones they want to accept as "ex cathedra" or whatever magical phrase they come up with. They decide this each for themselves. However, the apostle wrote:

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

— 1 John 5:9-10

>>Let's break the staples of "Trad-Cats" and see how Catholic these things really are.

What would be the opposite of Trad-Cat? Non-traditional? You realize that the only true traditions are found in the sufficiency of Scripture?

Mark 7:7-9.

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Whether you live in the 4th century or today, it's not too late to be baptized into a sincere body of believers. But this first requires you to realize a need for salvation, that your works are not sufficient and never will be, and maybe put away some ancestral pride, about being wrong on baptism, first.

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af007c  No.828929

File: 38ef24123a6d455⋯.png (6.77 KB, 523x150, 523:150, 03f026906.png)

>>828925

>Ok couple things here.

Forgot the other thing I was going to say here. The catechism also says this (for now, they're always changing it).

So do you agree that the Mohammedans' unitarian god is your god? I'm sincerely wanting to know your answer because it would also explain a lot if you did agree with it.

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7af407  No.828969

File: 775cb1e04b66208⋯.jpg (492.55 KB, 1280x1620, 64:81, 1580720561159.jpg)

File: 2a3715ea45b543c⋯.jpg (40.92 KB, 689x500, 689:500, Pope_Saiint_Pius_X_slaught….jpg)

File: 453f07aff29a459⋯.jpg (175.84 KB, 640x1136, 40:71, Pope_Pius_X_faithful_shoul….jpg)

With Vatican II, it's not a matter of rejecting a church council or not, it's a matter of which one? Do you reject Vatican II, or all the church councils before it? Has the Church been wrong for the last 1900 years and suddenly fixed in 1968? That too, is absurd. Did the eternal all knowing God Almighty change His divine and perfect mind? Can't happen. What was right in the council of Trent is still right now.

You're best hope is to appeal to ignorance, that you don't know that Vatican II contradicted prior councils.

And you have to ask, is Vatican II which included Protestant heretics as well as Jews even a legit council. The answer there is obvious.

Keep the faith

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36c2dd  No.828990

>>828917

>And I'm sorry to say, that after studying Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic church, this movement ultimately seems like straight up Protestantism.

It's almost like the Catholicism of roughly 9 centuries ago didn't much resemble modern Catholicism, and the Protestants were actually just trying to shake off the excess or something. It's almost like trad-caths are trying to do the same thing, but over a different set of excesses.

<It's not me, it's everybody else that's the problem!

Have you ever considered that maybe everybody else was leaving for a reason?

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52ba02  No.828993

>>828917

i feel as if trad catholicism can be a double edge sword for newcomers or those regaining their faith and trying to make sense of the state of the church, it was quite difficult for me so i started to look to orthodoxy but thankfully i took a step back and reconsider catholicism and now im what trads call a 'neocath' and now quite content and attend novus ordo 'guitar masses and latin high mass equally without a problem.

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36c2dd  No.828996

>>828993

It just dawned on me that your only possible basis for deciding that modern Rome was "the right church" is your own emotions. I can't think of any actually authoritative basis that someone who was already doubting modern Catholicism's authority would be able to set aside their convictions and become "content" with deviation from known tradition. What possible justification could you have…?

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af007c  No.829006

>>828996

Superstitions about Rome. That's it. There's no Biblical basis for any of this.

At least, not unless maybe you turn it upside down and reorder the letters or something.

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6beecd  No.829010

>>828925

Why would a very sadly misguided Protestant respond to a question for Catholics? What do you hope to accomplish with this post? Seriously

>>828929

Is 2 Thessalonians 2:15 in your bible?

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6beecd  No.829012

>>829006

Oh gosh look, another “Christian history ended in Acts 28 and picked up again when my pastor started his church”

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6beecd  No.829014

>>828993

The ONLY Catholicism is neoCatholicism. You don’t have Catholicism without the Pope, Councils, and church magistrate.

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af007c  No.829020

>>829010

I never saw where it said this was for Catholics.

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68a970  No.829027

>>829014

there is no such thing as neocatholicism

it is the same catholic faith the apostles and moses had

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97a70c  No.829031

>>828917

Normie Catholics aren't reproducing. It's hard to claim you're the one true faith if you don't exist anymore.

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f206c5  No.829096

>>828917

Well most of this waste of space is irrelevant so I'm just going to point to some of the more egregious nonsense.

>Rejection of Vatican II

Church councils aren't inerrant and have been overturned in the past, and there's a good argument that it's contradictory to previous teaching, thereby making it void.

>Publicly slandering the Pope

Slander implies a lie, not necessary to make Francis look bad. Also criticism of the Pope isn't anti-papist, criticism of the concept of the Papacy is.

>Ecumenism

Taken to the extent liberals do it obviously contradicts previous teaching.

>Why are you clinging to the words of one or two popes that were uttered hundreds of years ago?

Because those words were consistent with Church Teaching and ecumenism isn't. This also directly contradicts your own argument about not criticizing the Pope directly above winnie the pooh retard

>So why shouldn't he flood America with good Mexican Catholic families and Europe with good African Catholics now that the West is chopping off it's own d—s?

Well leaving aside the obvious

>Mexican Catholics

>African Catholics

<Good

Your question basically boils down to "why should I not commit heinous evil on people I don't think are good enough Christians?" I might point out how this directly contradicts evangelism, but why bother? You are unironically a deeply evil person and not a Christian.

tldr; "Liberal catholics" "I love my liberalized inconsistent political church that contradicts actual Church tradition more than Catholicism" Hey, if you want to be a passive aggressive faggot clinging to an ahistorical interpretation of Church tradition that somehow makes direct contradiction of Church teaching on faith and morals valid, God bless ya (you need it), but don't pretend you're a Catholic.

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af007c  No.829098

File: f5fcbf1eb0109a7⋯.jpg (21.03 KB, 480x360, 4:3, kjv_1.jpg)

>>829096

>Church councils aren't inerrant

Exactly. Only the word of God is. 1 Peter 1:24-25.

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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7af407  No.829102

>>829096

Thank you.

On the subject of "Mexican Catholics", there was a recent article in Northwest Catholic trying to make the point that not all Mexican Catholics are there to get the handouts from the Church via Saint Vincent de Paul and the program they have to help "immigrants" aka "illegal aliens". I had to laugh, even the Novus Ordo know they don't support the church.

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0d6883  No.829108

File: df3171c717e6d83⋯.jpg (30.55 KB, 483x461, 483:461, 1558395280795.jpg)

>>829096

Good post. A big issue with Mexicans is they are heretics who vote pro-abortion.

>b-but I know one Republican Mexican

There were righteous jews in Jesus' time too. That didn't stop him from calling them a problem. That's not even going into the heretical pagan nonsense their culture practices. Only floor lickers think spic immigrants are preferable to normal Trad Catholic whites.

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aabc74  No.829212

>>829096

>You are unironically a deeply evil person and not a Christian.

Hey, i recognise that rhetoric.

You are that idiot that kept trying to make the OT levitical law about race-mixing and ended up making a fool of yourself in the process.

Then we had that kinism thread, where you once again tried covering the fact that you are talking bulls—, with your clownish "you are evil and not a christian" joke, but it died, as much as you tried to pump it, and slander anyone who entered your thread.

Now you are trying this crap again.

What a joke.

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301375  No.829228

>>829098

Acts 15 isn't inerrant?

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5f1d00  No.829238

>>829228

How did you get that from what he said?

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4c3a5c  No.829241

>>829212

>You are that idiot that kept trying to make the OT levitical law about race-mixing and ended up making a fool of yourself in the process.

Not him but it's an obvious fact the OT says not to racemix, especially in Tobit which is a Catholic book and this is a Catholic thread.

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d48172  No.829251

>>829241

The OT is about levantines interacting with levantines.

The problem with extra-judaic relationships was always about spiritual and cultural corruption, not genetics.

Trying to make it about New World racial issues is retarded.

And even if you could extrapolate sone theological arguments on the subject, his examples were downright moronic(Deuteronomy 22:10 being about mixed babies, and other non-sence)

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af007c  No.829253

>>829241

Again, where did it say this was a Catholic thread? We are breaking the staples of "Trad" Catholics here. And that's what I plan to do.

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70722d  No.829258

File: 9f1eedb5fa3d2b0⋯.mp4 (3.01 MB, 640x360, 16:9, Catholicism_Voodoo_yoDR0V_….mp4)

>>829251

>The problem with extra-judaic relationships was always about spiritual and cultural corruption, not genetics.

These are not separate issues. With very few exceptions, if you take any flavor of Christianity to South America, they'll soon turn it into a hybrid religion that contains all of the elements of their ancestral religious tendencies. The same goes for Africa. Culture flows from blood. That's where you get abominations like the kind in this video. I'm not even Catholic and even I think this is disgusting. But they do the same sort of syncretism with Protestantism too, so it's not even a Protestant vs Catholic thing… It's just in their nature to do this.

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aabc74  No.829284

>>829258

Have you ever read on how much the Church had to struggle to root out weird syncretic pagan and magic stuff among rural populations in Europe?

Same for Islam in various places in MENA and West Africa.

I'm not even gonna bother with the rest of your post.

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af007c  No.829292

>>829284

>to root out weird syncretic pagan and magic stuff among rural populations in Europe?

They actually introduced it a lot of times after they had forcefully driven out or physically killed local churches. That's why there's all this saint worship and idolatry going on in places.

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af007c  No.829315

>>828925

Let's look at this post again more broadly to understand how well it counterjects what it is responding to.

>Rejecting a church council opens the door for infinite heresy.

The OP said that rejecting any church countil "opens the door" for infinite heresy. However, that implies he thinks every council ever held, even by Arians must be accepted and implies that there is no such thing as discernment at all.

The >>828925 post counterjects this by pointing out that the Council of Ariminum held in 359 AD would then have to be accepted. Yet the argument spelled out in the OP is exactly, word for word, what the Arians in 359 AD might have insisted on.

The response also supports the much better alternative by consistently proposing that the one unchanging truth is actually Scripture. Not church councils. This counters both the OP argument, and the Arians at the same time while having no contradictions of its own.

>Do you really think ancient Catholics went broadcasting anti-Papist views in public like you do

The OP next said something that was proven false by the >>828925 post. The bishop-appointee of Trier was quoted in the year 900 as calling the Pope of Rome as the Antichrist, Rome as Babylon and so forth. Using a primary historical source document that contradicts what the OP claimed.

>The Catechism specifically condemns public slander of the pope and church magistrate. What makes you think you're above the Catechism and Catholic teaching?

Next, the OP >>828917 quoted the catechism (in its current form) as being something of ultimate authority. Yet at the same time as this, he didn't even mention the Scripture, assuming that this is superceded by Catechism and Catholic teaching. The OP ignored the fact that the Scripture might have something to say that goes against these things. The Scripture, as a lesser authority to him, wasn't even part of his consciousness at the moment of writing that sentence. He was just completely unplugged and disconnected from it. The response pointed out this contradiction of what is the highest authority and pointed out the fact that it didn't even get a single mention or consideration by OP.

>So the church fathers somehow botched communion for hundreds of years?

The OP then tried to imply that he knows how every person practiced communion for hundreds of years and proceeded to assume it was the way he thought it was today, and he also declined to mention Scripture as the authority again. He was apparently only interested in selectively interpreting through his own lens some partially corrupted, possibly forged manmade writings. Writings that are mutually contradictory and must be selectively chosen and interpreted by the person who is doing the interpreting. The response noted that we have the writings of the apostles which are preserved for us without any corruption or error and perfectly consistent, and that the New Testament even tells us that reading their words is what we should do, not anybody else's, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

>why are you clinging to the words of one or two popes that were uttered hundreds of years ago?

The OP tried to say that people are doing what he himself has been doing here, which is selectively interpreting manmade sayings from popes, which is the most contradictory thing of all for him to object to. The >>828925 post did well to point out that many people are simply selectively choosing whatever out of context word-phrases they want from a long list of people who claimed to be in the state church and each person claiming that their choice of what statements to believe constituted "ex cathedra." Despite this leading to each person coming up with their own unique individual views, just expressed in a manner of selectively interpreting thousands of other fallible statements made by dubious authority, possibly forged and probably not recorded accurately, and certainly being misinterpreted by the users of it today.

The response then clearly delineated how the apostle John wrote that the witness of God is greater than the witness of men, that whoever refuses to believe in the record that God gave of his Son, is the one who has made God out to be a liar. Nothing about "church fathers" in there.

>>Let's break the staples of "Trad-Cats" and see how Catholic these things really are.

The >>828925 post then called out the contradiction in terms made by the OP. He thought using the term "trad cath" was a derogatory term not including himself, but the fact is that true traditions are exactly what every sincere person is trying to observe concerning Christ.

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7af407  No.829317

I find it interesting my post was deleted.

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a9b28d  No.829336

File: df4713ba1df1178⋯.jpg (396.12 KB, 1100x2127, 1100:2127, jc_pantocrator.jpg)

>>828917

Amen, brother. I actually came here to make this thread. I'm just so sick and tired of RadTrads, they break my heart. Prideful, presumptuous, haughty individuals who are for the most part incapable of mustering charity and are more interested in debate then they are anything else. I'm sorry to vent, they too are my brothers in Christ, but when I try to even appeal to Church teachings, they just become so abrasive and have no qualms of saying that I'm not their brother. It pains me so much, it's a cross that I can't carry silently I'm afraid.

I am not religiously indifferent, I believe that the Catholic Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. But the Good Lord knows our ignorance and in His infinite love He has mercy on us sinners. It's not like we have to take a written exam to make it to His Kingdom, it's about cultivating Christian virtue and pious Faith. So whenever I see the same old tired permutations of "Pope" Francis aka BERGOGLIO is #NotMyPope, I really do have to wonder if this was what Christ called us for. But the incredible nastiness from internet RadTrads is so very impious, so off-puttingly abrasive, just how many of these people figure themselves to be more holy than the Holy Father? And for what reason, I wonder? So that they can feel justified in their faith? Just endlessly gossiping about Church politics and making wild assumptions about the Pontiff or the Curia? It's all so tiresome.

Even protestants are my brothers, even if I think it's tragic that they have departed from the Sacraments. So to hear a fellow Catholic say that they are not my brother, it stings so very much.

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a9b28d  No.829337

Huh? Why was my post deleted? What is the meaning of this?

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a9b28d  No.829338

>>829096

>Church councils aren't inerrant and have been overturned in the past

This isn't true at all. And the cases were is was "true" does not apply to the Second Vatican Council.

>Slander implies a lie, not necessary to make Francis look bad.

The Holy Father is constantly slandered by protestant-tier quote mining. I do freely concede that Pope Francis has some troublesome ambiguities, but in no way is he as bad as some make him out to be.

>Taken to the extent liberals do it obviously contradicts previous teaching.

V2's ecumenism bore splendid fruits of dialogue. Even scandalous events like the Prayer Gathering of Assisi, as naïve and ill-advised as they were, were not public displays of apostasy, just run-of-the-mill interreligious contact.

>Because those words were consistent with Church Teaching and ecumenism isn't.

Except it is. There were no concessions done to the teachings and when the Vatican authorises joint declarations of Faith with other churches, it's always to affirm the orthodoxy.

>Well leaving aside the obvious

>>Mexican Catholics

>>African Catholics

<<Good

Who are you to make such prideful declarations exactly? With whose authority are you proclaiming who are the better Catholics?

>You are unironically a deeply evil person and not a Christian.

Brother, I would urge you to reconsider your prideful polemics.

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6468ae  No.829350

File: 20fa005af134f84⋯.png (70.39 KB, 300x250, 6:5, 20fa005af134f84a99ddeea154….png)

>>829338

>I do freely concede that Pope Francis has some troublesome ambiguities, but in no way is he as bad as some make him out to be.

Member when he told that little boy that his atheist daddy would be in heaven because he had them baptized when they were babies? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-pope-francis-comforted-a-boy-who-wondered-if-his-dad-a-non-believer-was-in-heaven_n_5ad5f549e4b016a07ea0afac

>V2's ecumenism bore splendid fruits of dialogue.

I'm Protestant. These tradcath dudes are literally telling me that I'm going to Hell, and even I'll recognize that they're the ones being doctrinally consistent and holding to actual Catholic tradition. How the heck are you going to tell Protestants that we can still be saved when there's no logical way, according to Rome's sacramental system, that we're even in a state of grace!? I've never darkened the doors of a Catholic church, let alone seen a priest, so what method is provided in your system for me to receive grace?

According to Rome, do not all Protestants commit the mortal sin of profaning the priesthood and the pope? Do not all Protestants regularly commit the mortal sin of not attending a Holy Mass? And yet we never confess this to a priest, so how then could we ever logically be in a state of grace? Rome has cucked on her doctrines. How can she claim to be the "one true church" when she's compromised on the exclusivity of salvation? It's a joke.

>>829336

>who are for the most part incapable of mustering charity

And yet you'll get offended when Protestants say the same about Catholics.

>are more interested in debate then they are anything else

Well if you thought the church had gone astray, wouldn't you be looking to argue with some people too? Perspective.

>Even protestants are my brothers

No we're not. We're less related than Ishmael and Isaac. Your gospel is incompatible with the truth, you're following the wrong authority, and faith in Rome's sacramental system of grace will end in your dying in your sins. I do not want to be lumped in with Rome.

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a9b28d  No.829352

File: aed000c856be87b⋯.jpg (622.7 KB, 2169x3000, 723:1000, gruenewald.jpg)

>>829350

>Member when he told that little boy that his atheist daddy would be in heaven because he had them baptized when they were babies?

Yeah, I do remember. How cruel of him, right? Thank the Lord that there is a Purgatory, God understands your ignorance and your persistent pleas for the salvation of loved ones. I don't think that Pope Francis said anything that was that scandalous. Trust the Lord your God, that's it, He understands what you wish for better than you do.

>These tradcath dudes are literally telling me that I'm going to Hell, and even I'll recognize that they're the ones being doctrinally consistent and holding to actual Catholic tradition.

God does not care about your Pharisaical legalisms, He operates outside the bounds of our theological understanding. This is why there are concepts such as invincible ignorance, which are not easily definable, if at all, because to try and define such a thing is to declare with prideful certainty God's Judgement. This is not what the orthodoxy does. "We can tell you where salvation is, not where it isn't".

>How the heck are you going to tell Protestants that we can still be saved when there's no logical way, according to Rome's sacramental system, that we're even in a state of grace!?

Do you think God is the Catholic Church or that is even what we believe in? She is merely defends the deposit of Faith, the correct understanding of our religion, She does not dispenses Perfect Justice.

>I've never darkened the doors of a Catholic church, let alone seen a priest, so what method is provided in your system for me to receive grace?

You are God's to judge, brother. You accepted Christ even if you reject the sacraments for whatever reason. God will understand your ignorance and He will judge you justly. It may be the case that you already understand the importance of the sacraments and you are not cooperating with Grace, in which case you should reconsider your adherence to protestant movements.

>According to Rome, do not all Protestants commit the mortal sin of profaning the priesthood and the pope?

Ignorance. The Catholic Church also defines mortal sin as a sin that is grave in nature and that was committed with full knowledge of the act. There is no contradiction here.

>How can she claim to be the "one true church" when she's compromised on the exclusivity of salvation?

Do you think that Christianity is about exclusivity? She consistently branches out to protestants and schismatics so to defend the orthodoxy of the Faith. And again, it is not the Church that dispenses salvation, only that She has the correct understanding of the Faith and is in the unique, divinely instituted position to arbiter these things. See the list of churches who are in full communion with Rome. Why do you think it's acceptable for Catholics to want their fellow brothers in Christ to be condemned to eternal damnation just because of circumstances that they do not control? And do you think that an Almighty, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent God would not have mercy on your pitiful mortal ignorance? How many Catholics do you wager are almost irredeemably badly catechised? How many profane the Blessed Sacrament unbeknownst to them? How many fail to confess sins that they themselves are unable to identify with a good conscience?

>And yet you'll get offended when Protestants say the same about Catholics.

Yes. But less so because they don't know better. What exactly is your point here?

>Well if you thought the church had gone astray, wouldn't you be looking to argue with some people too? Perspective.

I don't think that the Church has gone astray and I believe in the dogmas of the Catholic Church. What I see in seddies and radtrads is the sin of Pride manifest and it baffles me how they are unable to perceive this.

>No we're not.

Peace of Christ be with you, brother.

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bfcd65  No.829358

>>829352

>How cruel of him, right?

To bear false witness is a sin against God and is most cruel when misrepresenting what our Lord said.

>Thank the Lord that there is a Purgatory

I'm not sure what you're talking about exactly, but it's nothing you'll be able to find in the word of God.

>I don't think that Pope Francis said anything that was that scandalous.

One– why does what you think, have any specific bearing on reality. Two, why do you think that something that is bearing false witness is acceptable "as long as it isn't 'scandalous'. "?

Luke 6:26

"Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."

"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."

- Luke 16:15

>Trust the Lord your God, that's it, He understands what you wish for better than you do.

Agreed. That's why I can't regard anything you've said here as fact. Also for other clear reasons, because the things you have written are inconsistent, logically.

>to try and define such a thing is to declare with prideful certainty God's Judgement.

Wait a second here. Declaring the judgment of God is performed at such time when his word is faithfully read. Thus the judgement of God can generally be known through his own word.

"With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth." Ps. 119.13

"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment. The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide." Ps. 37:30-31

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things," 1 Cor. 2:15

Not only that, but having certainty in the true faithfulness of God for performing his own word is not prideful. According to Hebrews 9:17, God confirmed the immutability of his counsel unto the heirs of his promise by an oath. We know God cannot lie. Where is the vanity or pride in trusting God's word and in embracing that truth.

What is prideful, then, is trying to overturn those things that God has said… Such as, for instance, when someone quotes something as though it was truth and God's word, but in reality, being a fallible word devised and conceived of by a mortal only.

First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy:

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

>"We can tell you where salvation is, not where it isn't".

What passage of Scripture is that?

>Do you think God is the Catholic Church or that is even what we believe in? She is merely defends the deposit of Faith,

You make this sound like an oblique reference to the epistle of Jude v. 3, i.e. "the faith once delivered to the saints."

But so far not a single thing written by you has anything even closely resembling the precepts of what the Lord said. It sounds from you like a completely foreign, pagan religion being taught, that just bootlegs some symbolism and started its own dogmas. Where is the actual reference to anything our Lord said?

>She consistently branches out to protestants and schismatics so to defend the orthodoxy of the Faith.

What is the justification for those times when "branching out" has meant using state power to grieve others and burn their scriptures though. Branching out is an interesting way to describe it, because it more afflicts and burdens people who might just be sincerely keeping the word of God within doctrinally sound, local, New Testament-established churches, comprising those set apart by God, his saints which shall be preserved forever. Why would anyone afflict and burden them? Is it because you or they think that somehow covering it up, pretending it doesn't happen, will somehow make this fact go away? Does not God know all secret things. Is there nothing covered that shall not be revealed. Shall not God bring every work into judgement? Shall not the work of a man God render unto him? Why then act like being able to cover these things up short term will somehow prevent "scandal." This is an arbitrary madness, built on cunningly devised fables and on the spirit of antichrist or "replacing Christ." As has been clearly shown and demonstrated.

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7af407  No.829359

>>829350

>How the heck are you going to tell Protestants that we can still be saved when there's no logical way, according to Rome's sacramental system, that we're even in a state of grace!?

Don't worry, protestant bro. According to the Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X, all thoughts about sex are mortal sins.

From Psychology Today:

The tally counts (times thought about sex) reported by the men ranged from 1 to 388. The variation for the women was less extreme, but still quite large, ranging from 1 to 140. Because there was so much variation, it makes most sense to talk about the median scores (50th percentile), because medians are less influenced by extreme scores. We found that the median number of sexual thoughts for men was 18.6 and for women it was 9.9. In contrast, the average for men was 34.2 and for women it was 18.6.

Thus, the average man just out of the confessional loses the state of Sanctifying Grace about 28 minutes later. The average woman enters into mortal sin 51 minutes later.

My only hope for salvation is to drop dead as Father finishes saying the Prayer of Absolution.

Thank goodness I'm older, when I was younger sex was on my mind a lot more than that.

I go to mass and I see a very short line for confession, but almost everyone take the Holy Eucharist. It's another mortal to take the Holy Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin.

I see no way about this except to hope you get a priest to do the sacrament of Extreme Unction as you're dying.

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7af407  No.829360

The tally counts (times thought about sex) reported by the men ranged from 1 to 388. The variation for the women was less extreme, but still quite large, ranging from 1 to 140. Because there was so much variation, it makes most sense to talk about the median scores (50th percentile), because medians are less influenced by extreme scores. We found that the median number of sexual thoughts for men was 18.6 and for women it was 9.9. In contrast, the average for men was 34.2 and for women it was 18.6.

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7af407  No.829361

>>829352

>Yeah, I do remember. How cruel of him, right? Thank the Lord that there is a Purgatory, God understands your ignorance and your persistent pleas for the salvation of loved ones. I don't think that Pope Francis said anything that was that scandalous. Trust the Lord your God, that's it, He understands what you wish for better than you do.

The Pope, of all people, should always speak the Catholic teaching instead of kind lies. Such talk as this, that you can go to heaven while being a total atheist by getting your children baptized will lead many souls away from the church and to hell.

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6468ae  No.829364

File: c1d3cbcdb926d19⋯.gif (429.56 KB, 400x366, 200:183, 1460567253905.gif)

>>829352

>How cruel of him, right?

To knowingly lie to the boy? Yes, that's pretty cruel.

>Thank the Lord that there is a Purgatory, God understands your ignorance and your persistent pleas for the salvation of loved ones.

Purgatory is for those who die in a state of grace. Not that it actually exists, but the boy's father would have died while still stained with mortal sin according to Rome's doctrines. He would not have ended up in Purgatory.

>God does not care about your Pharisaical legalisms, He operates outside the bounds of our theological understanding.

Now you're starting to sound Russian Orthodox, denying systematic theology. I guess most Roman Catholics were "Pharisaically legalistic" up until Vatican II, eh?

>This is why there are concepts such as invincible ignorance

To try to apply that to either Protestants or that boy's father is a complete abuse of the doctrine… (Not that I accept its validity.) Neither were or are ignorant of Rome's claims in the first place. It's a rejection, not ignorance.

>Do you think God is the Catholic Church or that is even what we believe in?

Every man who becomes a Roman priest receives the title of Alter Christus… The pope bears the title of The Vicar of Christ on earth.

>Ignorance. The Catholic Church also defines mortal sin as a sin that is grave in nature and that was committed with full knowledge of the act.

You're using that term, ignorance, very liberally. Protestants are fully aware of what Rome claims to be and we reject it. If being a scholar on the Catechism were the standard for knowledge, then most lay Catholics wouldn't be knowingly sinning either. Regardless, most Protestants never started out in a state of grace to begin with, so even if they were only guilty of venial sins, they would still be damned by the consistent application of the standard of Rome's sacramental system.

>Do you think that Christianity is about exclusivity?

Yes, and Catholics used to know that too, even only a few decades ago. Jesus speaking in John 14:6

<I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

>She consistently branches out to protestants and schismatics so to defend the orthodoxy of the Faith. And again, it is not the Church that dispenses salvation

How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance from the reality that basically all Roman Catholics up to, at the earliest, the Reformation, would have considered you a heretic and been sympathetic to your excommunication? It's mind boggling to me. For expressing those two ideas, "branching out" to Protestants and that the Roman priesthood is not the God-ordained, sole source of grace, they could have had you executed.

>Why do you think it's acceptable for Catholics to want their fellow brothers in Christ to be condemned to eternal damnation

Because the Roman church fought a bloody, continent-spanning war to crush the Reformation? Do you have any idea how many Protestants were torched at the stake for their beliefs? Clearly Rome didn't think we were brothers in Christ either. I certainly don't.

>And do you think that an Almighty, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent God would not have mercy on your pitiful mortal ignorance?

Well there's part of your problem… I don't hold to the doctrine that He's omnibenevolent. God's justice is wonderful and I love it.

>What exactly is your point here?

That your objection toward tradcaths, that they're "incapable of mustering charity", is meaningless because it goes both ways. Stick to doctrinal objections.

>I don't think that the Church has gone astray

I said if. I was trying to get you to put yourself in their shoes and understand their reasoning.

>Peace of Christ be with you, brother.

Our gospels are fundamentally incompatible… This is why we had the Reformation.

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6468ae  No.829366

>>829359

>the Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X

Is there an English translation of that running around? It would be a very interesting read.

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a9b28d  No.829368

>>829361

I'm not undermining the importance of faith or the sacraments. But a necessary ingredient of our faith is also mystery since Our God is the same God who preached to the pagans in Limbo. You don't tell a child that his father is burning and screaming in Hell for all eternity, you're making him despair and such a thing will push him away from religion and towards sin. You can teach him hope and you can teach him prayer, Our Lord is not unaware of our pleas. We don't have all the answers. All we can do is trust the Lord who knows better than all of us.

Pope Francis is not beyond criticism. But he did nothing wrong when he addressed that kid.

>>829364

I'm not sure why you're being so combative and baiting me with random protestant polemics. And I'm not sure if I want to engage, frankly.

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a9b28d  No.829369

>>829366

https://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/PiusX/CATECHISM_OF_ST_%20PIUS%20X.htm

And I'm sure you can find some pdf file somewhere since it's public domain.

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c593fa  No.829370

I hate using cuckchan because every board but /pol/ has porn ads now and it's gross. Thank you Jesus for resurrecting fullchan.

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7af407  No.829373

>>829368

If a Pope doesn't have the courage, grace and wisdom to defend the faith, why is he the Pope?

>>829370

Odd, the ad for sex toys is no longer at the top of /christian/

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6468ae  No.829374

>>829368

>But a necessary ingredient of our faith is also mystery

You're shoving mystery into something that Rome considered a settled matter for many centuries…

>God who preached to the pagans in Limbo.

What is that? Dante? I've never even heard this one before.

>baiting me with random protestant polemics

I'm unwilling to quietly entertain the notion that you and I stand on any common ground soteriologically. You're trying to syncretize things by appealing to mysticism. You haven't satisfactorily responded to what I said about Protestants never having entered a state of grace.

>>829369

Thank you.

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cd216d  No.829379

Why do I help people? Every time I do good for someone it ends up biting me in the ass and causing me physical distress and making me commit a sin later that's a worse sin than not helping someone. Trying to be good just makes me more evil.

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a9b28d  No.829395

>>829370

>I hate using cuckchan because every board but /pol/ has porn ads now and it's gross. Thank you Jesus for resurrecting fullchan.

Hm, you should be using adblock software, brother. It's good for your eyeballs, but it's also good for your PC. Ads are a known vector of malware.

>>829373

>If a Pope doesn't have the courage, grace and wisdom to defend the faith, why is he the Pope?

I fail in good faith to understand how the Pope failed to defend the Faith. He offered comfort to a child in pain and has perhaps strengthen him to seek the Lord and ask for his father to be forgiven. The Good Lord knows all your prayers, past, present, and future, He knows your sorrows and the things you wish for. And as for why Francis is the Pope, God has permitted his Papacy as He has permitted worse Popes in the past. We were promised an unfailing Church and so far it's working just fine, so if even if Francis is a bad Pope, an hypothesis I'm not particularly resistant to, then that is God's Judgment on the faithful, and Christians do not deny the Lord His Judgement.

>>829374

>You're shoving mystery into something that Rome considered a settled matter for many centuries…

I'm not, brother. Only if you have an inflexible, uncharitable understanding of Catholicism.

>What is that? Dante? I've never even heard this one before.

Your irony amuses only yourself, I can assure you.

>You're trying to syncretize things by appealing to mysticism.

I'm not, that is not the point I'm trying to make in the least. But mysticism is in itself a Catholic tradition, it wouldn't be an illegitimate appeal if I choose to, which I did not, although it is a conversation and an argument I have great fondness for. The Catholic mystics have many great things to teach you, I wouldn't turn them down if I were you.

>You haven't satisfactorily responded to what I said about Protestants never having entered a state of grace.

I am happy with the answer I've provided you, brother, though it bothers me that it doesn't meet your expectations. However, I do not presume you're in good faith in this conversation and I will disregard imbecilic polemics. I'm a Christian, and if you're not able to see me as a brother in Christ for whatever prideful reason, I am also a fellow human being. Don't waste my time as I will not waste yours.

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8b65b2  No.829400

Just reading this tread makes me feel sick and cynical of how many of you are actually "faithful" or how many just want to pose themselves as the better Christian. Hell, some of you are even larping to seem traditional, but even less so. So tell me, how did most of you convert. What made you see God's love that you had be Catholic? Or was it just memes and stupid imageboard s— that made you join?

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09f6b0  No.829402

>>829400

Being converted by a meme is legitimate. God can give you a grace through any medium.

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175b06  No.829404

>>829359

I have been free of the temptation of Lust, though. I accept that pleasure is not happiness. My big sin is not lust. (It used to) it is…wrath…

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a9b28d  No.829409

>>829402

I agree with this statement. We shouldn't look down on anyone who is converted by a meme, the Lord only knows how He dispenses His graces. But we should never accept meme converts.

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7af407  No.829431

>>829400

>So tell me, how did most of you convert.

I converted same as you did…

I had a very vivid dream, more of a vision from God than a dream. It made a prediction that came true.

Years later I prayed to a saint for grace,

I had another very vivid dream, and it was explained to me and I was warned, but of what I will not say, and I decided to go back to my Trad Roman Catholic roots.

What I was told, however, is between the Lord and myself.

>>829404

I think I'm just more lusty than most. Everyone has a cross to bear. Mind is controlling my own thoughts. Yours appears to be controlling wrath. Many are challenged by a lack of faith.

God deserves my worship of Him even if I am only worthy of the pit.

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826904  No.829466

>>829395

>I'm not, brother.

I view you the same as I would a Mormon.

>Only if you have an inflexible, uncharitable understanding of Catholicism.

Inflexible, yes. Rome has a consistent, traditional doctrine of salvation by which a definite answer on such matters can be derived. Uncharitable? What does that even mean in this context…?

>Your irony amuses only yourself, I can assure you.

That wasn't irony. I had to go dig it up. Protestants don't take Dante seriously, and frankly I don't understand why Catholics do either considering that it was an allegorical poem. I'm guessing most tradcaths don't either, considering how late it was written?

>though it bothers me that it doesn't meet your expectations

The reason it doesn't meet my expectations is that it doesn't provide a mechanism for Protestants to enter a state of grace. Again, Rome has had a very consistent teaching on this matter for many centuries.

>and if you're not able to see me as a brother in Christ for whatever prideful reason

It's for a theological reason. I can't call you a brother anymore than I can call a Mormon my brother… You're in a different category altogether by virtue of your gospel being logically incompatible with mine, and mine with yours. This has nothing to do with you or I as a person.

>Don't waste my time as I will not waste yours.

I'm arguing to get answers that are actually meaningful. Mystical answers do waste my time. Those are not the ones I'm looking for.

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a9b28d  No.829468

>>829466

>I view you the same as I would a Mormon.

Silence is golden. Refrain from airing such infantile retorts. If you're unable to not be rude, stay silent.

>That wasn't irony.

If it wasn't irony, it was ignorance. Limbo is a Catholic concept, it wasn't a literary invention. But you want to insist in your polemics, and I won't be dancing for your entertainment.

>it doesn't provide a mechanism for Protestants to enter a state of grace

Hence there is no Salvation outside of the Catholic Church. You are ignorant, and I presume that pridefully so, so you are God's to judge.

>Again, Rome has had a very consistent teaching on this matter for many centuries.

"Rome" recognises invincible ignorance. For one, you criticise the priest (perhaps rightfully) for clinging to Pharisaical legalisms and robbing the Faith of mystery, as if anyone had all the answers, but on the other hand, you criticise the Church for not uncovering all the answers and unequivocally stating how protestants go to Heaven. I can't imagine you're not aware of this contradiction of yours, you're merely entertaining yourself making claims about Catholicism as if you knew our dogma or as if the Church had any obligation to provide you with all the minutia and all the answers or if Her proclamations superseded God's own.

>Mystical answers do waste my time.

I've provided no such answer. Though I would urge you to seek them. Mystic experiences exist even outside of the Catholic Church and have converted many souls, if not for the One Holy Apostolic Church, at the very least to accepting Christ as the Son of God and as the King of all humanity. Why are you looking down on these people exactly? Humble yourself, young man.

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