/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I will never understand the attraction of regurgitating somebody else's prayer. It's so impersonal…

>But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

>Matthew 6:7

Maybe you should actually read the Bible.

>>828091

Because it is beautiful and resonates with people in a personal way. Do the Psalms not resonate with you? It's not a regurgitation, it's a recitation or re-dedication. When I listen to someone say a pre-written, heartfelt prayer with the eloquence of a saint, it always sounds better than the fumbling spontaneous prayers I hear some Protestants do.

"Lord, thank you, Lord, for all the good things, uh, you've given us, Lord. Thank you for the, uh, the food we are about to eat, Lord Jesus, for the nourishment of our bodies, Jesus Lord… uh… In Jesus' name, Amen."

And, funnily enough, many Protestants repeat the same formula every time they make a spontaneous prayer in a group setting, so it's still repetitive, just not quite as nice to listen to. Catholics have both spontaneous prayers as well as a repository of prayers that were written by people who gave prayer a lot of thought than laymen and refined their petitions and thanksgivings.

How can you not read the prayers above and want to pray them? To seriously mean them and bind your intentions with the poetry of the prayer? I practically weep at the beauty of the St. Francis prayer. It's the way I want to pray, and so it is personal for me.

>>828093

>And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

>Matthew 26:44

>And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth…"

>Luke 11:2-4

Maybe you should. Jesus both prayed repetitively and instructed us to pray a repetitious prayer. In your verse, vain is the keyword. A repetitive prayer is not a vain repetition if it is sincere.

>>828091

It may seem that way, but I have found that even prayers written by other Christians from hundreds of years ago do a far better job of expressing the way I feel than my own words ever could. And far from being impersonal, using the same words of prayer that countless millions of my brothers have likewise used throughout the centuries hightens both our connection to one-another as fellow members of Christ, as well as our connection to God, as we know we are not merely using our own vain words, but rather have joined ourselves personally to the common language of the Faithful.

>>828093

So tell me - have you ever read a Psalm? Because if you have, then you too have fallen guilty of "vain repetition" in the way you here accuse.

Using the words of past faithful that we know to be good and orthodox is NOT what Christ was preaching against when he condemned "vain repetition". Instead, he was arguing against the idea of mantras, or the idea that simply speaking words had some sort of 'magic power' detached from actually changing the soul of one who prayed - as though God is FORCED to act because of the prayer, rather than prayer bringing one's soul closer to God.

>>828089

the lord's prayer, its the only one i know from heart, i also like the one during liturgy before communion: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

>>828103

>Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed

Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul will be healed*

>>828104

>will

shall*

8kun really needs to fix delete post function

>>828091

why is the book of the psalms in the bible? why did the apostles ask Christ how to pray and why do people still use that prayer?

>>828091

>>828093

Reciting historic prayers is a biblical practice and a valuable tradition. There is nothing wrong with it.

What's wrong is merely repeating the words, which even catholics are clear to teach against.

>>828095

>When I listen to someone say a pre-written, heartfelt prayer with the eloquence of a saint, it always sounds better than the fumbling spontaneous prayers I hear some Protestants do.

That's just it… Appearances are typically pretty low on our priority list. There's a reason for that.

>it always sounds better than the fumbling spontaneous prayers I hear some Protestants do.

That usually just indicates that they're nervous (because they're speaking before others) or that they just don't pray often and aren't comfortable with it. Which I'll admit is definitely a problem.

>How can you not read the prayers above and want to pray them?

Because they aren't me and don't reflect my heart. If I'm bringing anything to God other than 100% sincerity, something is very wrong. I have my own words. Maybe they're not as pretty and organized at times, but they are far more real than anything I could ever recite. And maybe this concept might not translate because you're Catholic, but how would you feel if your children almost never talked to you except in words that somebody else wrote?

>Jesus both prayed repetitively and instructed us to pray a repetitious prayer.

Not even close to the same thing as Matthew 26… And Protestants don't often interpret Luke 11 in the way you did.

>A repetitive prayer is not a vain repetition if it is sincere.

And how many people praying like this are sincere…? How many people recite the words, empty, going through the motions? Many aren't, sure. But I think the majority certainly are. And how can any repetitive action like this not lend itself to mindless monotony? The practice seems to encourage the vain to a very visible form of empty religiosity.

>>828097

>So tell me - have you ever read a Psalm? Because if you have, then you too have fallen guilty of "vain repetition" in the way you here accuse.

You can pray a psalm, but reading a psalm is not necessarily praying it…

>>828106

>why is the book of the psalms in the bible?

Choc full of great theology and it shows you, among other things, King David's heart. There are also several prophecies among the psalms.

>why did the apostles ask Christ how to pray

Because the synagogues already had their own twisted prayer scrolls at that time, and I'd imagine that Jesus praying was a sight to behold.

>and why do people still use that prayer?

For the reason it was given. He was showing them how to pray, not what to pray.

>>828107

>Reciting historic prayers is a biblical practice and a valuable tradition.

Valuable for teaching, certainly… For actual prayer, I just don't see how unless you have nothing else to say. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I also find the prayer before receiving the Eucharist to be particularly effective and humbling oneself. Aside from the prayer of humility, I don't have many historic prayers, but I usually make my own with similar intentions.

>Lord Jesus, let me rather die than offend thee and give me a great horror for sin

<Amen

>Lord Jesus, let me love you above all things and let me do everything out of love for you

<Amen

>>828103

OP here. I LOVE this prayer. I just didn't include it because it's a part of the liturgy.

>>828108

>That usually just indicates that they're nervous (because they're speaking before others) or that they just don't pray often and aren't comfortable with it. Which I'll admit is definitely a problem.

Certainly. At least someone who has a favorite prayer memorized demonstrates that they've given prayer enough thought to dedicate one to memory, and many times they do that because it resonates with them.

>Because they aren't me and don't reflect my heart. If I'm bringing anything to God other than 100% sincerity, something is very wrong.

I agree. But that doesn't mean people who recite prayers aren't sincere. If you don't know of any existing prayers that convey your sentiments, that's fine. That doesn't mean that other people can't convey their sentiments through the words of others. Sometimes the things that other people say inspire us and teach us. Maybe the way that another person prays is insightful and makes us realize that we could be praying better.

>because you're Catholic, but how would you feel if your children almost never talked to you except in words that somebody else wrote?

Is this how you think about Catholics? Let me paint another picture. Imagine that your children talk to you in their own words, but they also quote your favorite movies and books and songs from time to time. It's a bonding thing. Don't you want your children to like what you like? Similarly, don't you want to like what your father likes? Just because we pray prayers that we didn't write ourselves, doesn't mean we don't talk to the Lord in our own words.

>And Protestants don't often interpret Luke 11 in the way you did.

Just because Protestants don't interpret scripture in that way, doesn't mean they are right. If Protestants interpreted scripture correctly, they'd be Catholic. Do you or do you not pray the Lord's Prayer? Have you said it multiple times in your life? Did you write it? Then you are guilty of what Catholics do. Simple as that. "But that's different! It came directly from Jesus!" I hear you cry. If Jesus wrote a prayer for us, I'm thinking it's okay to pray with prayers written by others as long as they are geared towards proper Christian sentiments.

>And how many people praying like this are sincere…?

I forgot that you and all of the other Protestants are able to judge people's hearts. If you admit that it can be done sincerely, then that's good enough, because it isn't your place to rebuke them. I don't know how many people do it sincerely, but when you read my OP did you honestly think that I wasn't being sincere? If you don't want to pray Psalms or prayers of the Saints or long-established prayers, that's fine. That doesn't give you the right to assume that people who do are being vain and then judge them for it.

Here's something to chew on: Do you honestly think your prayers are unique? Do you think that no one else has prayed what you've prayed? With the same words even? Have you never prayed a Biblical prayer as simple as "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner?" Because that's the point here. If you've prayed one of those prayers, you've repeated it. That doesn't make it any less sincere. And maybe other people say what you want to say better than you know how to. Because, honestly, something like, "I'm not worthy, but only say the word," is just too beautiful a sentiment to not want to express.

>>828111

>Is this how you think about Catholics?

With sadness, yes.

>Just because we pray prayers that we didn't write ourselves, doesn't mean we don't talk to the Lord in our own words.

For the current Catholics I know and the former Catholics I know, that's not what has been conveyed to me in the least. I'm sure there must be Catholics out there who do, I realize that there are sincere Catholics, but I've not met them. All I see is a dead husk covered in lots of shiny adornments that keeps muttering something about Mary praying for them.

>If Protestants interpreted scripture correctly, they'd be Catholic.

Which is a perfect example of why these are two different religions.

>Do you or do you not pray the Lord's Prayer?

>Have you said it multiple times in your life?

>Did you write it?

No, no, and no. I wasn't raised in the church and never interpreted that prayer in the way that Catholics do. Other than your external authority telling you otherwise, I don't see how anyone could arrive at the idea that you're to parrot that prayer from the context. Not that it's wrong to do so, but that wasn't the point of what Jesus was doing.

>I forgot that you and all of the other Protestants are able to judge people's hearts.

I don't. I judge their fruits, and I listen to the self-judgments of others regarding the former condition of their own hearts.

For example, the very overtly Catholic woman that lives several doors down from me is always certain to never miss mass on Sunday… But she's an alcoholic to the point that you can usually smell it on her, she curses like a sailor, and there's frequently strange men in and out of her house. She has no husband and they aren't relatives, so I'll let you do the math. She hit on my brother a few times when he was staying with me, so this isn't speculation. She's gossiping and backbiting incessantly, almost every time I see her. I'll walk out my door and there she'll be, talking very loudly to another neighbor about so-and-so, and very unkindly. Am I to believe that her recited prayers are sincere?

And please understand, these are the Catholics that I run into. These are the only ones that I hear about either, other than nuns and monks. So my impression is that this is very normal… Vain religiosity, no underlying reality. Therefore I perceive that there must be a great many Catholics out there repeating the prayers of others, with less than full sincerity the majority of the time. I think the actual practice itself encourages this, by providing them an opportunity to easily virtue signal and look super pious when they're really not. That's my primary issue with it.

>Do you honestly think your prayers are unique?

Language is memetic, I get what you're saying. But my words are still mine.

>Have you never prayed a Biblical prayer as simple as "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner?"

Since I'm not reading off of a cue card, no.

>"I'm not worthy, but only say the word," is just too beautiful a sentiment to not want to express.

I agree, but I've still got to find my own way to express it.

The arrogance of Baptists never ceases to amaze me

>>828121

>Language is memetic, I get what you're saying. But my words are still mine.

Let me ask you this - why do you assume that if I pray using words first written down by another, that the prayer cannot be mine? That is to say, while the words on the page may have been first written by another, when I pray them, I fill them with my own personal meaning, my own fallings and needs, my own devotion to God and relationship towards him. Everyone who prayers the same written prayer makes it their own by the simple act of praying it, and an individual makes an entirely new prayer every time he prayers even the same words. Prayer is, of course, not about the PHYSICAL act of just saying the words (if we believed so, that would indeed by vain repetition), but rather the SPIRITUAL act of communing with God be prayer.

Conversely, why do you think that simply using "your own" words necessarily makes a prayer more genuine, or more effectual? You say that praying using someone else's words may lead to one merely "going through the motions" and not praying genuinely. I agree - this is a danger we always need to work against. but I say that the VERY SAME DANGER is present even when we pray using our "own words!" No matter what words we use, we can always fall into selfishness, or irrevernece, disingenuity, lack of focus, or any other number of faults. But thousands of years of lived experience of our fellow-members in Christ have given us a great treasure trove of prayer techniques to help us avoid these dangers, and the time-tested prayers created by the Faithful are great examples of this.

>>828121

Catholics will be the first to admit that most Catholics are damned. Wasn't there a thread on here very recently linking to a homily discussing this very idea? Most people in general are damned. Most people inside the Church are damned. That doesn't mean the Church is wrong in it's dogma. It also doesn't mean that there aren't those passionate saints within the Church. And if I happen to meet a lot of really nice Buddhists, I'm not going to forsake Christ just because their fruits are better than the hypocritical Christians I see around me every day.

Yes, those Catholics you've met don't produce good fruits. I've met them, too. In fact, I can say that out of all of the Catholics I've met (and keep in mind that I was raised Catholic and have therefore met many), I can think of maybe three or four off the top of my head that actually produce good fruits. But you know what? I don't know what's going on in all of those other Catholics hearts or minds, and I keep in mind that I see very few of their actual deeds in this world. So I don't judge. People with a very narrow view of me probably don't think much of me either.

>>828130

>Let me ask you this - why do you assume that if I pray using words first written down by another, that the prayer cannot be mine?

I don't. Like I said, I'm not going to outright condemn the practice. I know it can be sincere. Good for teaching even. It's just that it would seem the encouragement of the practice is highly conducive to false religiosity, and so I question the appropriateness of encouraging the practice among laymen because it provides such an exceptional method of virtue signalling. It would seem to incentivize it, in our current cultural atmosphere.

>why do you think that simply using "your own" words necessarily makes a prayer more genuine, or more effectual?

Genuine yes, effectual no. I do not presume to influence God. There's a difference between thinking deeply and thinking clearly. If the majority of your time you're merely repeating the words of others, how will you learn to come up with your own words? You can think about the words of others, and you can ponder those words deeply, but that's like a guide rail. At what point do you set these things aside and become the one writing the prayer? Is that not something to strive for? Is that not good?

>>828131

So that I don't completely derail this thread, I'll just say that I understand your point and I wasn't trying to use that as a condemnation of Catholicism. That wasn't where I was going with that. My objections to Catholicism are doctrinal and that's for another thread. I was saying that, because this appears to be the majority of laity, the promulgation of the practice openly seems to have detrimental effects at this point… In that it masks false believers and ends up bringing shame upon the church by their behavior.

Litany to the Sacred Heart of Jesus

>>828089

The Litany of Humility

O Jesus, meek and humble of heart, hear me.From the desire of being esteemed, deliver me, Jesus.From the desire of being loved, deliver me, Jesus.From the desire of being extolled, deliver me, Jesus.From the desire of being honored, deliver me, Jesus.From the desire of being praised, deliver me, Jesus.From the desire of being preferred to others, deliver me, Jesus. From the desire of being consulted, deliver me, Jesus.From the desire of being approved, deliver me, Jesus.From the fear of being humiliated, deliver me, Jesus.From the fear of being despised, deliver me, Jesus.From the fear of suffering rebukes, deliver me, Jesus.From the fear of being calumniated, deliver me, Jesus.From the fear of being forgotten, deliver me, Jesus.From the fear of being ridiculed, deliver me, Jesus.From the fear of being wronged, deliver me, Jesus.From the fear of being suspected, deliver me, Jesus.7That others may be loved more than I, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.Thatothers may be esteemed morethan I, Jesus, grant me thegrace to desire it.Thatin theopinion of theworld, others may increaseandImay decrease,Jesus,grant me the grace to desire it.Thatothers may be chosenandIsetaside, Jesus, grant me thegrace to desire it.Thatothers may be praised and Iunnoticed, Jesus, grant me thegrace to desire it.Thatothers may be preferred to me in everything, Jesus, grantmethegrace todesire it.That others may become holier than I, provided thatIbecome as holy as I should,Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it