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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 305b62776e7345f⋯.jpg (22.19 KB, 480x270, 16:9, 305b62776e7345f469aa8e3ed4….jpg)

01c2b9  No.827075

How do I turn from an atheist to a Christian again? It seems impossible for me to believe in things such as Jesus's divinity, heaven or hell, etc… At best I can see myself turn into some kind of an hybrid Jungian-Buddhist deist.

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a2f6cf  No.827077

No one becomes a Christian by denying Christ. Christ's divinity is the whole point.

But at least you're honest. Better that than lingering around a church and making things worse.

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96a5ba  No.827081

>>827075

>It seems impossible for me to believe in things such as Jesus's divinity, heaven or hell, etc… At best I can see myself turn into some kind of an hybrid Jungian-Buddhist deist.

That's what Peterson did. He was always very pro-religion, always talked about how important it was and he said something like "I pretend as if Gof was real". Now look where he is now.

It's not enough to pretend, you got to believe even if doesn't seem rational to you.

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982448  No.827094

>>827081

Juden Peterstein?

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4af2e9  No.827103

>>827075

>How do I turn from an atheist to a Christian again? It seems impossible for me to believe in things such as Jesus's divinity, heaven or hell, etc…

You either believe or you don't. It has to do with your nature as an individual. Why are you even wanting to believe if you don't believe these things at all?

If you're asking how to "fix" not believing those things, then that's another issue. There's no way to believe it if it isn't in your nature to, but if you really want to but haven't figured out how yet, then the answer might be more information. What's stopping you from believing? What are your objections? If those are dealt with, then maybe you'll believe. Or maybe you won't, but you've got nothing to lose from asking.

>>827081

>you got to believe even if doesn't seem rational to you.

It should seem rational because it is rational. That's the thing. If you say you believe, but it doesn't "seem rational", then something is wrong and the objections which render the rational irrational need to be dealt with before it goes off like a pressure cooker.

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787351  No.827108

>>827103

Not OP but I can relate to how he feels. I struggle with a similar issue.

>What's stopping you from believing? What are your objections?

For me the biggest thing is how can a good, loving, and just God create a realm of eternal torture.

Additionally, how is it the original sin humanity's fault? God is all creating and all knowing. He created the fruit of knowledge of good and evil and he knew that the serpent would successfully tempt Eve and Adam thus dooming humanity. How could an all loving and good God allow that?

Please I'm not trying to argue or be an edgelord atheist, I want to believe, I'm deeply afraid of the afterlife, I want to be good and walk with God. But my rational mind (that God gave me) does not allow me to believe with unanswered questions like these floating in my head. If any of you could please help me answer these questions I would greatly appreciate it. Please pray for me.

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798705  No.827109

>>827103

>It should seem rational because it is rational.

God isn't rational though. It works either as an abstract philosophical concept or as something you believe in without trying to apply real life logic to it.

How much of the bible is real, which moments are fictious and which are metaphorical? Which parts are we supposed to take literally and which figuratively? Were Adam and Eve real and was Eve tempted by a real serpent? Did he really kick them out of a real garden? Did he really BTFO the people who build the tower of Babel and create different languages for them? Did Lot's wife really turn into a salt pillar? Did the people of Sodom really try to winnie the pooh an angel in the ass? Did God really talk out of a bush to Moses? Did he actually communicate to jews in person, gave them commandmentss, lead them out of Egypt as a fiery pillar? Can dead people really be ressurected to life again? How do we deal with the fact that the books of the bible had been written by different people, different nations, for different purposes over the course of a thousand years? How do we deal with the fact that people gathered together and voted on which books to include in the bible and which to leave out? There is a million things that work in the bible but don't work in the real world.

None of these things are "rational" in the conventional sense of that word. You can either choose to believe it willingly or accept it as some kind of philosophical truth. But you can not apply logic and rationality to it because it contradicts everything we know about the world, and accepting that contradictions on the basis of a book of semitic mythology is, well, quite illogical. And no, I'm not trying to be edgy either or argue for an atheistic point of view. I'm just saying that belief doesn't necessarily require logic or rationality.

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65b816  No.827110

>>827109

>Which parts are we supposed to take literally

The parts written in the genre of historical prose

>and which figuratively?

The parts written in figurative genres like poetry

To all of your specific cases, yes these really literally happened.

>How do we deal with the fact that the books of the bible had been written by different people, different nations, for different purposes over the course of a thousand years?

It's not as broad as you're alleging, it's entirely in hebrew and greek (some aramaic)

Why is it a problem that they have particular messages in the whole of scripture? God inspired them all, and they all contain different complementary messages.

You should consider if the absence of contradictions within the elaborate theology of the Bible despite such plurality of authors and time is a case for divine Biblical inspiration.

>How do we deal with the fact that people gathered together and voted on which books to include in the bible and which to leave out?

We value their work in sifting out apocryphal texts, and we accept or reject their decisions based on the evidence

>None of these things are "rational" in the conventional sense of that word.

>you can not apply logic and rationality to it because it contradicts everything we know about the world

you're confusing "rational" and "logical" with "natural"

We know that these things can't happen naturally. The Bible is a supernatural book full of miracles. To say that only the natural world exists therefore the Bible is not true is a presupposition, not a logical problem with Christianity.

check out reasonablefaith.org

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4af2e9  No.827111

File: b6e904442e8e724⋯.png (980.77 KB, 561x650, 561:650, ClipboardImage.png)

>>827108

>Please I'm not trying to argue or be an edgelord atheist

I'm not here to bite your head off, relax. It's clear from your wording that you're here in good faith. I will respond in kind.

>For me the biggest thing is how can a good, loving, and just God create a realm of eternal torture.

What is your standard of good? How can you define what is good apart from God? If you are applying a separate standard, then where did that standard come from and what makes you believe that it is valid?

You may say, "I am applying God's standard of goodness back to Him." This leaves us with one of two options: Either you are not correctly applying that standard or God is somehow lacking. Considering that the creation around us testifies to the nature of his character and sufficiency, if not the reality of the laws of logic themselves existing, then it must be that God is not somehow lacking. It is far more likely (and indeed the case) that you are not correctly handling God's own standard of goodness.

Romans 9:19-23

>You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

You are God's creation, likened to a clay pot. Does God not have the right to store whatever He desires inside his pots? If not, then whose standard are you applying to God? This is God's standard.

>Additionally, how is it the original sin humanity's fault?

God foreordaining the fall does not negate the fact that Adam and Eve did what they knew was wrong anymore than a sting operation exempts a car thief. The conceptual good and the conceptual evil will ultimately be separated like water and oil at the cosmic scale. The chaff from the wheat, the goats from the sheep, the common from the holy.

If you're talking about guilt for original sin, you're looking at it the wrong way. Eve was just patient zero of an infection that has been actively degrading the nature of Adam and their children since the beginning. Sin is a hereditary disease. Because you're infected, you want to sin too. You're radically corrupted by it, to your very core. It's in your bones, it's in your cells, and it even infects your spirit, killing it. There's no getting rid of it entirely except to get a new body and to experience a spiritual resurrection. Two things that only God can do.

>How could an all loving and good God allow that?

Because evil ultimately serves a good end. God is the only being in existence that can logically say with 100% certainty that the ends justify the means, because He has all knowledge with which to make that judgment. If you say otherwise, then I have to ask, on what authority?

>But my rational mind (that God gave me) does not allow me to believe with unanswered questions like these floating in my head.

I constantly have to tell people that there's nothing wrong with asking questions. Curiosity and craving consistent answers are perfectly fine things.

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4af2e9  No.827114

>>827109

>God isn't rational though. It works either as an abstract philosophical concept or as something you believe in without trying to apply real life logic to it.

An assertion without argumentation is like a plant without a root.

>There is a million things that work in the bible but don't work in the real world.

Well if you're a naturalistic materialist, no kidding, you're going to have a real hard time with the reality of the supernatural. If you can't accept it, then you can't accept it.

>You can either choose to believe it willingly

We do not choose to believe or disbelieve anything. We act according to our natures.

>But you can not apply logic and rationality to it

Philosophy is irrational now if it applies to metaphysics? Aristotle would be very disappointed to hear this.

Also, what this guy said. >>827110

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a9c8ed  No.827119

>>827103

>You either believe or you don't. It has to do with your nature as an individual. Why are you even wanting to believe if you don't believe these things at all?

This. I can't believe in Protestant heaven/hell because the afterlife being a prison just doesn't make any sense especially considering the liberties that come with being a pure spirit. I believe more in the Orthodox position that heaven/hell are states of being.

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a2f6cf  No.827120

>>827119

That's just a Christian position in general. Orthodox may articulate better, but it's rooted in scripture. And Orthodox believe in an actual heaven and hell as well - it's just that they emphasize being able to experience the kingdom now. We all start our "residency", if you will, by becoming part of Christ's church and being reborn in the Spirit.

Christ is he who was, who is, and who is to come. And so it is with his kingdom as well.

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fbbdfd  No.827123

just belive in god and you will be fine!

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7d2873  No.827124

>>827120

It's pretty remarkable how things like that turn out to be the actual doctrine despite all the adults that surrounded you your entire life saying the opposite. I was told all predestination is false and calvinist but I thought for myself and concluded single predestination is true. I was pleasantly surprised to discover it is the actual Catholic doctrine despite most Catholics passionately opposing it.

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4af2e9  No.827125

>>827119

>especially considering the liberties that come with being a pure spirit.

There's the problem with your logic right there. Scripture teaches physical resurrection. Whether damned or glorified, we're all getting a new and permanent body at some point.

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66f11d  No.827129

>>827075

I'm thinking about returning to the Catholic Church. I was baptized as an infant, had my first confession, and first communion but I was never confirmed. I would like to re-learn about Catholicism before trying to return.

What books or other resources can I use to re-learn what I've forgotten (or maybe never learned)?

What should I do when I'm ready to return?

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a9c8ed  No.827131

>>827125

That's a red herring. Being physical doesn't magically make states of being physical places. You can be joyful or despairing in your same room depending on what's going on.

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3444fe  No.827132

File: 29c1a7d2102e9d9⋯.png (285.78 KB, 500x354, 250:177, i-uf.png)

>>827109

"Rational" in itself is an abstract philosophical concept - no one thinks they're irrational.

>>827075

Have you tried re-reading the Bible? Nobody gets everything the first read.

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