/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>826571

>I'm never going to be able to recieve the Eucharist which Jesus says you have to do to gain eternal life

<By sharing in the Eucharistic meal, the Church teaches that Catholics are fulfilling John 6:53: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

<What does that really mean? Jesus goes on to say that "it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63-64). So, if "the flesh is of no avail," why would we have to eat Jesus' flesh in order to have eternal life? It does not make sense, until Jesus tells us that the words He speaks are "spirit." Jesus is saying that this is not a literal teaching, but a spiritual one. The language ties in perfectly with the aforementioned statement of the apostle Paul: "Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship" (Romans 12:1).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Eucharist.html

That's the Protestant answer. No exceptions required. You're judged by faith, just like Abraham.

>>826860

>So, if "the flesh is of no avail," why would we have to eat Jesus' flesh in order to have eternal life?

The unity of Holy Spirit with the Flesh of Christ, recieved in faith, is that which gives us life.

<…he intends not that the body of Christ is in this sacrament merely according to mystical signification, but "spiritually," that is, invisibly, and by the power of the spirit. Hence (Tract. xxvii), expounding John 6:64: "the flesh profiteth nothing," he says: "Yea, but as they understood it, for they understood that the flesh was to be eaten as it is divided piecemeal in a dead body, or as sold in the shambles, not as it is quickened by the spirit . . . Let the spirit draw nigh to the flesh . . . then the flesh profiteth very much: for if the flesh profiteth nothing, the Word had not been made flesh, that It might dwell among us."(Summa theologica tertia pars Q75)

>Jesus is saying that this is not a literal teaching, but a spiritual one.

It is not either-or. It is both.

<Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us Hisflesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

>>826876

>It is not either-or.

It is in this case

> "it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63-64).

>>826877

That’s an odd take on that specific verse.

So John 6 is Jesus teaching at the synagogue.

John 6:51 - Jesus first directly references His flesh. Prior to this He uses the metaphor of bread.

Verse 52, The Jews are disturbed by the flesh part.

Jesus could have said, “It’s just a metaphor,” but He reiterates *four times in a row* (v 53, 54, 55, 56) eat flesh, drink blood.

Then He explains why in v. 58: You will live forever.

Then His own disciples get uncomfortable (v.61) He begins talking about the thing He just said, v.58, the eternal life part.

Verse 62, He talks about ascension into heaven. This is a direct reference to the subject he is talking about: eternal life in heaven.

Verse 63 He expands on this and explains that the *eternal life* is spiritual. Not the flesh and blood part that He reiterated four separate times earlier. In short, your flesh is temporal, your spirit is eternal.

Then in verse 66, His disciples leave. Why would they leave if He had just explained to them that it was all a metaphor?

They left because they were just told something very uncomfortable: that salvation would only come from eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of Man, and the only salvation they could expect was spiritual.

>>826877

>It is in this case

Not an argument

>John 6:63-64

Amen. The flesh alone does not suffice for eternal life. However partaking in the flesh, united through the hypostatic nature of Christ, is united to the Spirit whom gives us life. That is the bread of life which we eat.

<This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

>>826883

There are two doctrines at play here, real presence and necessity of observing sacraments for salvation. You can affirm one, both, or neither.

Repeating metaphors don't make them literal, nor does other's misunderstanding of metaphors make them literal.

This isn't an odd take, it's the majority opinion. Most Christians do not subscribe to real presence, that's why traditional roman catholicism emphasizes it so much as a point of zeal.

>Why would they leave if He had just explained to them that it was all a metaphor?

He didn't explain to them it's all a metaphor. He used cryptic mystery language like usual. He's deliberately driving them away.

<“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

>Jesus could have said, “It’s just a metaphor"

He could have and he didn't for the above reason. Most metaphors go unidentified by the speaker, that defeats the purpose of metaphor.

>Then He explains why in v. 58: You will live forever.

Yes, because of the atoning sacrifice.

This is a very similar passage as John 4 "but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

You read this one as a metaphor, don't you?

I believe this passage by itself does not teach a requirement to literally eat and/or drink in order to have eternal life, literally his body and blood or not, but I see why you and others read it that way. It gets even more clear in the context of the whole Bible when we read the relevant passages about salvation through faith not of works like Ephesians 2.

>>826887

>Not an argument

How is that not an argument?

<I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever

Eating the bread is a metaphor for believing on Jesus's sacrifice, just like

<but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst.

is a metaphor for the Word, not literal water

<and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

the crucifixion

>>826889

>How is that not an argument?

You failed to use John 6:63-64 to say Christ was speaking soley metaphorically. He was speaking both literally and spiritually.

<The flesh alone does not suffice for eternal life. However partaking in the flesh, united through the hypostatic nature of Christ, is united to the Spirit whom gives us life.

This was my argument, you show me that this was not the case.

>Eating the bread is a metaphor for believing on Jesus's sacrifice, just like

"but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst." is a metaphor for the Word, not literal water

He is speaking of literally of water. Water is in fact mixed with wine before consecration.

<Pope Alexander I writes (Ep. 1 ad omnes orth.): "In the sacramental oblations which in mass are offered to the Lord, only bread and wine mixed with water are to be offered in sacrifice…because we read that both flowed from His side in the Passion."

Aquinas also writes,

<In Baptism water is used for the purpose of ablution: but in this sacrament it is used by way of refreshment, according to Psalm 22:3: He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment.

Ambrose writes,

<The water flows into the chalice, and springs forth unto everlasting life.

So then,

<whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst.

>>826888

>He's deliberately driving them away.

Lol. Please elaborate on Jesus purposely driving people away from salvation.

>>826909

Not from salvation, but from his entourage

>For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe