/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>826358

No.

This is not an argument favoring capitalism, but I would like to make a distinction from operating withing a market economy and being a capitalist. Put simply, small businesses (of whom compose the number of business most numerically, but not in terms of revenue) are in most cases a guy, and a team of people perhaps, selling their expertise in some sense. My pops owns a business, and that is not inherently being supportive of the consumerist state and soceity. we live in now.

That said, no, if you put the market, or "capitalism" above God, you are not following the first commandment.

Have you ever seen a neocon defend Orthodoxy?

>>826363

This. I would say that the only socio-economic system that puts faith first and conforms its beliefs around that (as opposed to, say, Marxist "Christians" who often conform their faith around their economic beliefs) is Distributism - which is founded entirely on Catholic social teachings (Mostly Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno). It essentially is the idea that everyone or nearly everyone should own their own business; this removes the corporate/consumerist nature of modern global capitalism, which so often places money as an enemy to God, rather than placing it as a servant of God.

There are several other aspects to Distributism, and I encourage you to look into it, OP. If you're asking this question, you're probably wrestling with a lot of the criticisms of capitalism that distributism brings up

>>826388

If you try starting your own business in current year. It dies because the Chinese make 50 copies of your business or your rivals are funneling cheap Chinese goods behind your back. It doesn't matter whether its IRL or online, the blight of China is everywhere.

>>826389

The blight of China only exists due to our rampant consumerism.

We need temperance.

>>826358

You commie faggots are pathetic. God is a capitalist with a Heart.

>>826358

>how in good conscience can a Christian support an economic (and social) system that is based on the exploitation of the poor?

Unironically, you're speaking of communism, which exploits the poor and says all property belongs to the state for the state to do with as it wishes, and it doesn't wish to support religion.

How can you be a Christian and be a communist or socialist? Jesus said give charity to the poor, he didn't say take a sword to the rich guy and rob him. There's a commandment against that.

Capitalism is the idea of private ownership of the means of production. Consider your head can make intellectual property, and your hands can produce physical goods. Thus, Capitalism is the idea you are not a slave.

Socialism is the idea that the state owns the means of production. In large part, that means they own you but not your shirt, as your shirt doesn't produce anything.

Communism is the idea that the state own the means of production and everything else. So, if they find a better use for your shirt, they take it.

It's pretty basic that Christianity comes down on the side against the theft from the people because of the 7th commandment "tho shalt not steal". Socialism is just theft for lazy people - they want the government to do their stealing for them.

You cannot for for a socialist e.g. Bernie Sanders and be Catholic.

>>826456

>Capitalism is the idea of private ownership of the means of production. Consider your head can make intellectual property, and your hands can produce physical goods. Thus, Capitalism is the idea you are not a slave.

This is absolutely retarded anon

>>826454

Cool so Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Goldman Sachs, Walmart, and Apple (all atheists, all Christ haters) Should be in control of our society. Not Christian people, who still make up the majority.

There needs to be a middle group between Soviet style atheistic communism and atheistic American liberal capitalism. This I call a socially conscious (dare I say socialist!) Christian ideology that respects the small artisan who produces things himself but oppresses the materialistic atheistic corporate class. Society should be set up to promote the welfare of the commonwealth, while also maintaining orthodoxy.

>It's pretty basic that Christianity comes down on the side against the theft from the people because of the 7th commandment "tho shalt not steal"

The thefts are not those who steal bread because they are hungry. Its Bezos, Gates, Cook,and the rest of the ascended merchant class.

>>826388

>Muh distributism

As much as it gets broadcast about, it would be nice if anyone explained how that shit would happen.

"Wealth will be spread around"-ok, how?

>>826358

>>826362

Yes.

wealth not obtained by sin is fine.

Dollars are neither good or evil, they are older than that. While always depends in how the money got to your hands.

>>826358

I thought about this and I came up with a very simple definition of greed: Greed is putting money above faith, honor and virtue. So if you're doing this, you're living in sin and you'll fail on the day of judgement.

Are you poisoning the enivorment to save on waste disposal? Greed.

Are you paying your workers unfairly? Greed.

Are you insufficiently protecting your workers from mental/physical hazards? Greed.

Can you be a capitalist without greed? Yes, but you won't make as much money.

Of course, that's not a problem, since you can and should be happy even without money. Being a capitalist can be motivated not just by greed, but by doing good, employing people, and securing a livelihood for your family, those are good motives. Ultimately you know best what is in your heart.

The only part of Capitalism that should be rejected is the idea that private property is a right. Private property is incompatible with Christian values in the sense that everything belongs to God and our "ownership" is actually a stewardship. In every other tenant, as far as I can tell, Capitalism and Christianity are completely compatible simply because, in theory, every Capitalistic venture and transaction is voluntary. God allows us to choose our own path, and we can choose to be sanctified through grace or sin. Likewise, Capitalism is the economic parallel. People do good things with Capitalism – invention, innovation, charity, entrepreneurship, philanthropy, etc., which are all things God encourages. People do bad things with Capitalism – usury, defraud, slavery, pollution, etc., which are things God forbids. But something that we all know about God is that He does not force people into being good; He allows them to decide for themselves.

It seems to me that if you want the Christian perspective, but an anti-Christian society, you will promote Capitalism. If you want a Christian society (albeit not for very long), you could force your Christian values upon society through Socialism. Note that the Apostles and early Church lived in Socialist communes, but they did so voluntarily. If you want some balance between the Christian perspective and the Christian values, you're going to have to adopt some form of Fascism.

>>826989

A right to private property is a delegated right as stewards like you said. In my opinion, all rights are delegated like the US founding fathers say.

To say private property isn't a right means that a coercive entity like the state or "the public" is entitled to it. That's a very radical communist position.

>the Apostles and early Church lived in Socialist communes, but they did so voluntarily

so they weren't socialist

Socialism classically defined is collective ownership of the means of production. Even socialism allows for personal ownership of property that aren't means of production.

You're thinking of a welfare state.

>>826994

>To say private property isn't a right means that a coercive entity like the state or "the public" is entitled to it.

I disagree. I find that to be a false dichotomy. Just because a coercive entity may seize control of it doesn't mean I think they are entitled to it – just that I don't think I am entitled to it either. The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. I was it's steward at the Lord's pleasure and that's all.

I actually don't believe in any rights at all – they are nothing more but general consensus about what people feel entitled to I don't think anyone is entitled to anything. A right is nothing more than a concession by a violent system and a promise to honor that concession in the future. Just because I am a human being with natural human dignity doesn't mean anyone else has to honor that dignity by telling me I can say anything I want, own things, or protect myself. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for those concessions and promises, but I don't think I'm entitled to them any more than I'm entitled to draw in my next breath. That's really not for me to decide. All there is is right and wrong and whether anyone is oppressed or not, they must conduct themselves right.

Sure, "rights" are not given us by the state. That's because rights aren't things; they don't exist. They are nothing more but general consensus about what people feel entitled to. Some people argue that we don't have a right to universal healthcare or free education. I agree. I don't think we have a right to free speech or gun-ownership either. I just appreciate that we live in a country where the leviathan doesn't take those things from me.

>Socialism classically defined is collective ownership of the means of production. Even socialism allows for personal ownership of property that aren't means of production.

>You're thinking of a welfare state.

I suppose your right.

>>826358

>is it possible to be a Christian and a capitalist?

capitalist is an abstract economic model that doesn't exist in the real world. That's why every person that uses the word has a unique definition, which is why the term is meaningless.

>>826448

You know when capitalism is the best? At the beginning of the game when you have stacks of cash and you can buy boardwalk if you land on it. You know when it sucks? At the end of the game when one person owns everything. Capitalism has a life span and different stages of maturity. In some of those stages it's a blessing and in others it's a curse.

On another note, market economies are inferior to planned economies. Hitler and China have both shown that. Private ownership of property and the pursuit of profit coupled with state control of national resources(i.e- fascism) is better than capitalism

>>827000

>market economies are inferior to planned economies. Hitler and China have both shown that.

Nazi germany had a market economy and china is a s—hole.

St. Paul himself was a tentmaker (basically a small business that provided simple shelters for travelers.. a very common need in an era with pedestrian travel everywhere). That said, the Lord forbids usury as well, which is typical of any modern notion of capitalism. And don't get me started on just consumerism and the petty lifestyles that people have with brands and products. That's completely alien to anything in scripture. Our sense of "culture" and lifestyle is in Christ. Not in some silly bottle of deodorant or movie or shoe brand.

>>827067

pathetic that you feel the need to be condescending on an anonymous christian imageboard

>>826358

You can't be Christian and Marxist, nor a Christian and a capitalist. Any system which becomes absorbed by the pursuit of an economic doctrine will result in values and practices antithetical to Christian ideals. Social egalitarianism is not compatible with Christianity, nor is the ruthless pursuit of wealth. Reminder that National Socialism was built on top of Christian ideals, which is why it genuinely uplifted the worker while still allowing for men to have reasonable wealth.

God makes it very clear that it is HE who decides what measure of wealth a man will be given, and that man is beholden to God as to how he ministers that wealth. As Christians, we are not to despise a man of wealth simply because he has it, nor are we to despise the poor simply because they are poor. We are to judge with equal measures, with a righteous judgment. That means judging the character and the actions of the wealthy and the poor man. Blanket class warfare can only lead to destruction because it targets God ordained societal structures on an improper basis. We are not meant to be socially equal, nor are we meant to be complete psychopaths that bite and devour each other.

>>827065

What about what the some muslim countries do, and instead of interest on a missed payment you just pay a fixed fee. So, whether you borrow $500 or $50,000 you pay the same fixed amount. So if you miss no payment, you pay nothing over the principle

>>827322

>So, whether you borrow $500 or $50,000 you pay the same fixed amount.

Sounds like Mohammed ran into some Jews early on and realized the need for restrictions on usury. Now if only we could find some way to re-implement ours…

>>826358

Yes and no. If you take everything word for word in the Bible, you'll see many messages about giving to the poor, the rich being damned, and early Christians living in communes where they shared everything. But if you're more liberal in your interpretation, you can have more freedom to not take everything at face value and recognize that the Bible wasn't written as an economics book. Furthermore, the Catholic Church has repeatedly denounced Communism. But why take my word for it? Read some books on the subject. I know Thomas Woods — the catholic, historian, and Austrian economist — has written a book length defense of the free market from a Catholic perspective; and numerous Christian leftists have written book length defenses of a Communist interpretation of the Bible.

>>827585

> the rich being damned

None of this has anything to do with Communism. Karl Marx only existed little over a hundred years ago. He's nothing in the scheme of things. And Christianity never compelled or coerced anyone to give up riches or called for revolution or stealing property. There's no justification for Communism in the Church. The Church has only ever encouraged others to give of their own hearts.