/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>muh tiny brain can't eve comprehend the vastness and mysteries of God! 3 Persons in One God! I'm BTFO!

Yeah… God is pretty awesome. Consider that he controls creation by moving tiny sub atomic particles around on a quantum level, set up the big bang with the exact constants that allow the existence of life and made it all out of nothing but His divine power of His will, that he can make a soul you know you have but science can't detect at all…

And you quibble because your little brain can't comprehend the Trinity that is God.

God obviously exists, he told you to believe His One True Church which was designed by his Blessed Intelligence using knowledge that couldn't possibly have existed 2000 years ago and are not well understood even today, and this Church was blessed to create the greatest human civilization on Earth.

But you, you don't see it. It must be wrong.

The father is the one true God, as is the son, as is the Holy Ghost.

As is NOT Jupiter, Woden, Osiris and how they call the others.

There is only one true God. And the one true God is one trinity.

>>825752

These Trinity debates are always dumb. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all perfect and omniscient, therefore they all act as one and are effectively one God. Non-Trinitarians btfo. These threads now never need to be brought up again.

Hi Christanon.

Thanks for your reply.

You say this topic never has to be brought up again, I completely disagree. You fall Into the category of people who I've spoken to who speak alot about their own theology and beliefs yet struggle to be consistent in their arguments when it comes fitting the belief to the actual scriptures. In the end its them who actually fail to understand how the trinity is God.

For example you said

The father is the one true God, as is the son, as is the Holy Ghost.

There is only one true God. And the one true God is one trinity.

Yet John 17:3 is in complete disagreement to you. It says that the FATHER is the only true God, not the not the Holy spirit not Jesus. How do you come to this conclusion that the Trinity Is also the only true God?

From your statement it's already clear your showing a inconsistent arguement. Only one can be true. Either jesus was telling the truth or he was wrong/lying.

>>825752

>then how are other two God persons of the trinity also true Gods

>Gods

This is where you misunderstand. There are no Gods. There is only God. All three persons of the Trinity are God.

John 1:1 is

>"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

So the Word is God. Follow me so far?

Now just a few verses down is John 1:14.

>"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

So the word, having been begotten of the Father, is not Himself the Father. The Word was born as a man, and lived as a man among men. Who do you think the Word is? The Word is Jesus. What John is telling us here is that Jesus is not the Father, but He is God nevertheless.

The Father is the only true God. The Son is the only true God. the Spirit is the only true God. They are all the same God. Not Gods, but God. Don't worry if you can't quite comprehend how it works. You're not supposed to. That's why we call it a mystery.

>>825804

You can’t see your own contradiction and it seems as if you hide behind this false understanding that “God is a mystery”, NOWHERE in the scriptures does it talk about not being able to know who God is. Funnily enough John 17:3 contradicts this thought, as Jesus actually says about obtaining everlasting life is by “ their coming to know you”, why would Jesus say that to gain eternal life means coming to know God when we can never fully grasp what he is, you are wrong, we are supposed to understand. If not being able to understand God is scriptural, then please provide the scriptures and I’ll believe, if not then please stop using this poor argument in an attempt to support Trinitarians, its weak.

I understand the Trinity the way you do. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the Trinity aka Almighty God. They are not individual Gods per se but each represent the essence of God the Trinity in persons. The father is not the son, son not the HS, and HS not the father, its not difficult to grasp.

You said:

> There are no Gods. There is only God. All three persons of the Trinity are God.

I understand this but please look at what Jesus said, read John 17:1,3 a few times and then read what you wrote because I honestly don’t think your mind is open to what the text is stating.

John 17:3 - Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

You said originally there are no Gods (plural) only God, which you believe to be the Trinity and that all three persons of Trinity equal God. So then, how does Jesus say about only the FATHER, as shown in John 17:1, is the ONLY TRUE GOD? Only means only, in Greek the word is ‘monon’ meaning, only, solitary, sole or single.

If the verse said solely about God, that he’s the only true God, then you could use that argument, but the scripture clearly states this statement was directed towards the Father alone. No where is the same statement made anywhere in scripture in regards the HS or Jesus.

My original question still stands unanswered as your only response so far is, Gods a mystery and contradictory statements. I’d be happy to show your misunderstanding of John 1:1 in regards to your understanding of the Greek words applied to Gods/gods in the bible such as theos and Theon. However, I tend to stick on topic until I receive somewhat of a satisfactory answer and not just regular poor argumentation.

>>825817

I read John 17:3 before replying to you. I understand it perfectly well. It does not contradict the Trinity.

>NOWHERE in the scriptures does it talk about not being able to know who God is.

There's knowing who God is to the best of your ability, and then there's actually understanding everything about Him. God is infinite. He is higher than you than you are over a bacterium. It is pure arrogance to think that a finite human intelligence is capable of fully comprehending the nature of God.

>how does Jesus say about only the FATHER, as shown in John 17:1, is the ONLY TRUE GOD?

Because it's true. The Father is the only true God. So is the Son. So is the Spirit. It works because there is only one true God. Only, solitary, sole, and single.

>No where is the same statement made anywhere in scripture in regards the HS or Jesus.

Scripture certainly does refer to Christ and the Spirit as God. Again, I will direct you to John 1. And for the Spirit being God, I will direct you to Acts 5.

Acts 5:3-5

>3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep part of the price of the land? Whilst it remained, did it not remain to thee? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God. And Ananias hearing these words, fell down, and gave up the ghost. And there came great fear upon all that heard it.

In this passage, Peter identifies the Holy Spirit as God. God helpfully confirms Peter's claim by striking down Ananias, who offended God by lying to the Holy Spirit. And why does lying to the Holy Spirit offend God so much? Because lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. Because the Holy Spirit is God.

John 1 refers to the Son as God. Acts 5 refers to the Spirit as God. There is no other way to read these chapters.

>I’d be happy to show your misunderstanding of John 1:1 in regards to your understanding of the Greek words applied to Gods/gods in the bible such as theos and Theon.

Well by all means please do. But please be aware that this is not just my understanding. The doctrine of the Trinity was formalized at the Council of Nicaea in the year 325, by hundreds of righteous men who were perfectly fluent in Greek and many of whom in fact spoke Greek as their first language. I'm doubtful if your understanding of Greek is any better than theirs was.

In any case, what exactly do you believe the Son and the Spirit are, if they are not God? Surely if they aren't God, then God must have created them. But Philippians 2:6 tells us this about Jesus:

>Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

In other words, the Son shares the form of God and is in fact equal with God. No created thing can be equal to its creator, because God is the creator of all created things, and God is greater than all created things. Furthermore, equality with God implies omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, eternity, an infinite nature, and much, much more. What do you call a person with those attributes if not God?

And as for the Spirit, I shouldn't need to explain why it's silly to suppose that God would have had to create His own Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of God many times throughout the Scripture. Claiming that the Spirit of God is somehow separate from and inferior to God is manifestly ridiculous.

Deuteronomy 6:4, the Shema:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.

Exodus 20:2-3 Deuteronomy 5:6-7; better known as the First Commandment:

I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

>>825796

You sound like a polytheist…

>>825801

>>825804

>>825817

>>825819

…and so does John.

>>825844

>Pay attention,

>The Lord(1) our God(2) is one Lord(3).

>These three are one.

Even when assuming King James Only, your result is absurd. "The Lord" and "one Lord" are not distinct names of God. Further, the Zohar is no more canonical than the Talmud.

>You are an idiot. When we confess the Father, we confess the only true God, because only He is unbegotten and unoriginate, the Son is begotten and the Sprit proceeds. (That's why the creed starts off with I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD THE *FATHER ALMIGHTY* (because to confess the Father is to confess the Son and Holy Spirit.) As Saint John of Damascus says, you have mutilated God.

And as Martin Luther says, sola Scriptura. The creed wasn't written by a prophet.

>>825848

Furthermore, Saint Thomas worships Jesus. Jesus is worshiped many times in the Gospels. At the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus speaks as if He has the authority only God has (It was said in the days of old, but NOW I SAY TO YOU…) and He literally uses the Tetragrammaton and ascribes it to Himself. The idiocy of Arianism is that you don't even realize that YOU ARE THE IDOLATER if you think Jesus is merely an 'exalted' 'annointed' one that was the first 'soul' God created. You can't worship that, He would then be created, and we can't worship anything created.

>>825819

"Because it's true" as you said isn’t an answer. It's an escape response.

I'm not saying we’re able to understand God to the extent you suggested. But the Bible commands us to know God, to suggest that we can’t understand who or what God is on a basic level is unbiblical. 1 Corinthians 14:33 tells us "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" NSA KJV ASV. If God is a mystery Jesus would've told us in some way that we wouldn’t understand him but he tells us the contrary, John 17:3.

It seems like you’re getting yourself confused and trying to play word games to make John 17:3 make sense. I asked how Jesus called the Father the only true God and your answer was… "Because it's true. The Father is the only true God." I understand Jesus statement is true, as your implying, which is obvious, but Jesus wasn’t trying to say 'what I'm saying is true, the father is the only true God', what he was saying is what is said, the Father IS the only true God.

Remember you said the Father, Son, and HS = God, the Trinity, and that the HS, Son and Father are only the persons of God and not actually God himself per se, for God is the Trinity, don’t get yourself confused now. There is only one true Trinity according to you, God. So essentially here in John 17:3 you believe Jesus is saying the father is the trinity? This isn’t a mystery because it's beyond the human mental capacity as you claim, it's just so inconsistent that you confuse yourself, so blame your lack of understanding to God being a mystery rather than take the scripture for what it says in context. What makes more sense is that the father is the true God as Jesus state. This thought is also reflected in John 8:54

John 8: 54 - Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. MY FATHER, WHOM YOU CLAIM IS YOUR GOD, is the one who glorifies me.

Who was the God of a monotheistic Jew? Isaiah 43:10-15 makes it clear that's it Yahweh YHWH (Jehovah in English). Ergo Yahweh is Jesus' father. Yet you believe the following inconsistency.

TRINITY = The only true God

Father = The only true God

The Son = The only true God

The Holy Spirit = The only true God

How can you have four ONLY true Gods? In light of the below scriptures. Please bear in mind the English language we use means what it means, only means only. One hundred time out of hundred if there’s only one of something its mean exactly that e.g. there’s only one true Queen of England, Elizabeth, only one true President of the USA, Trump. Please don't answer with "BECAUSE ITS TRUE" This isn’t an answer, it’s a cop-out.

DUET 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

MARK 12:29 - The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

>>825819

>Scripture certainly does refer to Christ and the Spirit as God. Again, I will direct you to John 1. And for the Spirit being God, I will direct you to Acts 5.

This is not true, the same statement about the Father being “the only true God” cannot be said the same for the HS or the Son (please provide evidence). Both scriptures you gave Acts 5 and John 1 are very often misunderstood. Even well respected trinitarian scholars admit that both these passages do not show evidence relating to the trinity. Ask and I'll happily show references and comments of this, alternatively research it yourself.

John 1:1 can be translated in various ways.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV

THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine. MNT

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god NWT

I'll happily agree to the second two translations. The word (JESUS) was divine/a god, absolutely, but was the Word also God, well no it’s not that simple. Firstly, part B says that the Word was with God, the Word cannot be with God AND God at the same time, otherwise, he’ll be the God he’s with and you’d again be left with four Gods In part B of John 1. Therefore, to translate John 1 to “and the Word was God” is confusing to general readers as they're led to believe the word is God the trinity, as that's what it says if translated this way. You do not believe this yet this is how you read it.

That’s why it's better understood to translate the verse “and the word was divine”, one that is very intimately connected to The God but not God in the ultimate sense. Translating this verse to a god as the JW's do is also accurate and proper translation of the verse both grammatically and contextually as it means that same thing as divine.

Another issue is that John also makes a distinction between God/Theon and the theos in the verse. He does this by using the definite article (ton) before the first use of the word God. He says the word was WITH THE (ton) God, and then he goes onto remove the article and instead uses and different word entirely to describe the Word, that word is theos which means, a god/divine one but not God almighty. He’s, therefore, attempting to make a distinction of the Theon and the Theos. This distinction is not seen if the verse is traditionally translated to “and the word was God”, hence why it's not the best translation.

In light of these arguments its simply not reasonable to suggest the broad usage of the word Theos attributed to Jesus which is also used in scripture to describe angels, false gods, judges, kings, and Pharisees not to mention Satan himself is in any way suggesting that he is God Almighty. Your argument falls flat.

>>>” … why does lying to the Holy Spirit offend God so much? Because lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. Because the Holy Spirit is God.”

You’re merely assuming that the Holy Spirit is God. The mistake your making, as others do to when reading this verse is thinking that just because he lied to the Holy Spirit and to God in connection that they must both be the same person. Read Acts 5 again and make a list of all the people Ananias actually lied to. The Holy spirit, God and…. Peter and no doubt others with him. At minimum three persons correct? Since Peter was also lied to along with God and the Holy Spirit, can I use your same reasoning and say ‘since Peter was lied to as well, so he must also be God’?

Notice what it says at

1 Corinthians 8:12… Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. ESV

The grammar between 1 Corinthians and Acts 5: 4 at the end are identical. Yet I wouldn’t conclude that since sinning against a brother Is equal in sinning against Christ then it must mean they are the same person! Yet this is exactly what you do in Acts 5.

1 Thess 4:8 answers your question regards why God is so offended when Ananias lied to him and his Holy Spirit. It clearly tells us because the Holy Spirit is sent by God. The same way a King would be offended if you disregarded a letter with orders written on it is the same way God is offended with someone who disregards something that he’s sent.

Why do you understand the Holy Spirit to be God in light of passages such as 1 Corin and 1 Thess 4:2,6,8 when it uses the same language and grammar to groups of regular people along with either God, Christ?

>>>> In any case, what exactly do you believe the Son and the Spirit are if they are not God?

I believe the Holy Spirit to be Gods impersonal force, Jesus mentions this when he said he will ask the Father (John 14:16), to send it to the disciples. Its odd that he didn’t say he’d ask GOD (to you the Trinity) to send the Holy Spirit but rather the Father (who I solely believe is God) to send it.

>>825839

John is the ONLY Gospel that says Jesus is God. Without John there is NO Christianity.

>>825848

>You confess Luther? Then you must confess some belief in the Fathers and Ecumenical Councils. Well, the Fathers of the Church did not agree on the canon for a long time, plus they didn't 'agree' strictly speaking, it was much more fluid.

I'm aware that the book had yet to be closed. Your line of thinking here interests me, but I don't see how this point would resolve that argument.

>>825848

>At the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus speaks as if He has the authority only God has (It was said in the days of old, but NOW I SAY TO YOU…) and He literally uses the Tetragrammaton and ascribes it to Himself.

I get what you're trying to say, but I read this–and the rest of the Sermon on the Mount–as a restatement of "what was said in the days of old" and not an abrogation of it. My reading fits both your paraphrase and its context in Matthew 5:21-26.

>>825859

I'm not convinced that all of Christianity hinges on John 1.

>>825871

That's not a Gospel. Without John Jesus never calls Himself God.

>>825888

I even got divine digits from Lord Jesus Himself.

Let us make man in our image? Elohim is plural for El. El is ancient Hebrew for lord or owner. If you really love the truth. Let the truth be the authority. Do not let the authority be the truth. Actually STUDY the bible instead of regurgitating propaganda. The bible is fascinating. Warning! If you actually study your bible, will miss your bliss.

>>825888

winnie the pooh off mudslime

>>825891

Where the hell did you get the idea I have anything to do with Islam? I believe Jesus IS God and John is the only Gospel where Jesus says this. That's why John is so important!

>>825894

That's nice but Paul isn't Jesus. Without Jesus claiming himself to be God the whole thing falls flimsy and allows for heretical interpretations like Jesus as merely a prophet.

>>825899

If that's what you want to project onto me then fine, I cherrypick and decide to follow John, the Gospel where Jesus claims to be God because JESUS IS GOD. Ironic you post a heresy meme while arguing against Jesus being God.

I cannot believe I am getting called a heretic for pointing out the simple fact Jesus tells us he's God in John. This treatment I am getting is extremely uncharitable and undeserved. Ironically you are the ones committing heresy for attacking John where Jesus proclaims his divinity. It wouldn't surprise me if you are mostly muslims and jews false flagging as Christians.

Try training your reading comprehension before you accuse someone of being an Arian

>>825908

Then why are you attacking my posts where I say Jesus calls himself God, dumb nig? If you were a real Christian you wouldn't attack the basics of Christianity.

>>825929

That's what everyone itt needs to do. They called me all sorts of names just for saying Jesus calls himself God in John. You're all horrible people and even worse Christians.

>>825899

Jesus calls himself God in John and that's a fact.

>STOP CHERRYPICKING HERETIC REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

winnie the pooh off, you despicable piece of shit. Jesus is God and said he's God. I have no damn clue why you think I'm a heretic unless you're a muslim piece of shit looking to attack Christians. winnie the pooh you. And on the small chance you aren't, learn reading comprehension before you call more people heretics cherrypicking narratives for professing Jesus is Lord.

The absolute state of non-Trinitarians.

>some masons claim to be Trinitarian Christians

>therefore it's a Masonic doctrine!!!

>>825939

>people like muslims will just claim that that book was corrupted and they will ignore it anyway

Interestingly, islam teaches that allah's words cannot be changed. So if the Bible was corrupted then that means that his words can be changed. Meaning islam is false.

>>825752

You're 'confounding the Persons, and/or dividing the Substance'. Did you skip over John 17:5? - "And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee. "

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra: "First, then, the holy Roman church, founded on the words of our Lord and Saviour, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and holy Spirit; one in essence, three in persons; unbegotten Father, Son begotten from the Father, holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; the Father is not the Son or the holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the holy Spirit, the holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son; the Father is only the Father, the Son is only the Son, the holy Spirit is only the holy Spirit. The Father alone from his substance begot the Son; the Son alone is begotten of the Father alone; the holy Spirit alone proceeds at once from the Father and the Son. These three persons are one God not three gods, because there is one substance of the three, one essence, one nature, one Godhead, one immensity, one eternity, and everything is one where the difference of a relation does not prevent this. Because of this unity the Father is whole in the Son, whole in the holy Spirit; the Son is whole in the Father, whole in the holy Spirit; the holy Spirit is whole in the Father, whole in the Son. No one of them precedes another in eternity or excels in greatness or surpasses in power. The existence of the Son from the Father is certainly eternal and without beginning, and the procession of the holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is eternal and without beginning. Whatever the Father is or has, he has not from another but from himself and is principle without principle. Whatever the Son is or has, he has from the Father and is principle from principle. Whatever the holy Spirit is or has, he has from the Father together with the Son. But the Father and the Son are not two principles of the holy Spirit, but one principle, just as the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit are not three principles of creation but one principle. Therefore it condemns, reproves, anathematizes and declares to be outside the body of Christ, which is the church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views. Hence it condemns Sabellius, who confused the persons and altogether removed their real distinction. It condemns the Arians, the Eunomians and the Macedonians who say that only the Father is true God and place the Son and the holy Spirit in the order of creatures. It also condemns any others who make degrees or inequalities in the Trinity."

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>>825980

The Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

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>>825981

>>825939

Thanks for your post I enjoyed the read even though 99% was copy and pasted. Your and putting a HUGE amount of faith into a traditional and outdated church who’s teachings are clearly shown to been false, namely the Catholic church. Keep on reading and I’ll explain why.

You said:

>>>> Did you skip over John 17:5? - "And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee. "

John 17: 5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” NKJV

Firstly, I didn’t skip over John 17:5 and I don’t know what your actual point is by bringing this part of the scripture up. I believe your argument may be, that since Jesus asked to be restored to the Glory he has before the word was created that he must therefore be God? Am I correct in saying this?

If so here’s my (and your) issue. For starters simply to be made before something doesn’t mean your God. We both agree that this verse tells us Jesus existed before the world’s creation, however other beings also were created before the world was made Job 38:7 “When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?”. These angels (morning stars) although existing before the world was are never considered to be God, yet this is the claim you and others make according to John 17:5.

Another mistake you make is that you assume that the glory Jesus spoke of was referring to the glory of God or Being Go, in other words, you pre-assume Trinitarism when reading this verse. One BIG issue that you don’t see when reading this verse is that if Jesus is the God Man as Catholics and Trinitarians profess and all three persons of God are equal in power and all things, as your Athanasian Creed states “None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal” then why did Jesus ask to be restored to his previous glory if the God person of Jesus is unchanging. The Son person of God would have maintained the glory that he always possessed even while as the God Man, if he lost any of his glory then it too means that the Father and Holy Ghost also lost glory, for they are all co equal, this is not possible. God cannot lose Glory, yet this is what you believe.

—————So my question you is. How does God the Son LOSE glory? IF the Son loses Glory does God the Father and Holy Ghost lose Glory as they must be co equal?—————

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>>825981

>>825939

You said….rather, quoted:

>>>>These three persons are one God not three gods, because there is one substance of the three…

>>>>So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods”

>>>>You're 'confounding the Persons, and/or dividing the Substance'.

John 17: 1 - Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,

John 17: 3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Firstly I’m not diving the substance, I think Jesus has divided the substance. Since HE was the one, not I that the FATHER is the ONLY true God. All I’m doing is professing the same words and telling you. If the Father is the ONLY TRUE God, then how are the Son and Holy Spirit also true Gods? This contradicts the Athanasian Creed because your creed or doctrine says one thing and the scriptures/Jesus say another. For if the “Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God” then how can Jesus profess the words ONLY TRUE God to the Father alone. This is basic stuff and yet your Satanic doctrine is blinding you (2 Cor 4:4) to the truth of the scriptures and Jesus words.

——————Is the Father the only true God? Did Jesus mean ONLY when he said ONLY , or was he lying?———————

John 4:23 states TRUE WORSHIPPERS will worship the Father, not the HS, not Jesus, but the Father. You are NOT a true worshipper because you worship the Father, Son, and Ghost as the Trinity. Jesus never, not once said we should worship any but the Father, Jesus professed the Father was greater to him (John 14:28), again contracting the Athanasian Creed where no persons of the Godhead “precedes another in eternity or excels in greatness or surpasses in power”.

So Jesus professes there is only True God, the Father, he professes the Father is greater than himself, and then he also goes onto profess that the Father, as shown in Hebrews 1:1, is in fact HIS God, “Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” KJV.

Please answer my two questions.

2/2

I don't understand why this is still worthy of discussion.

The trinity is a mystery, so being unable to accept/understand it wouldn't be a reason for God to punish you.

>>825975

The bible is Gods word WRITTED DOWN. So it's rather obvious that it can be changed.

>>826055 (checked)

>The trinity is a mystery, so being unable to accept/understand it wouldn't be a reason for God to punish you.

I'm inclined to agree with you. If >>825859 were correct in equating the trinity with Christianity, then Christianity without the trinity would just be messianic Judaism or something.

>>825752

I recommend reading NICNT commentary on the gospel of Matthew by RT France. For easier works, read works by Larry Hurtado, Richard Longenecker, Richard Bauckham, Michael Heiser,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Ry_uEMG-k

Considering we are to pray in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we literally have in the synoptics the formula of God's Essence in three persons. The Name is IN the Angel of Yahweh in the OT.

The debate about the origin of the formula must not distract the reader from recognizing what a profoundly important theological step has been taken here. It is one thing for Jesus to speak about his relationship with God as Son with Father (notably 11:27; 24:36; 26:63–64) and to draw attention to the close links between himself and the Holy Spirit (12:28, 31–32), but for “the Son” to take his place as the middle member, between the Father and the Holy Spirit, in a three-fold depiction of the object of the disciple’s allegiance is extraordinary. The human leader of the disciple group has become the rightful object of their worship. And the fact that the three divine persons are spoken of as having a single “name” is a significant pointer toward the trinitarian doctrine of three persons in one God.

R. T. France, The Gospel of Matthew, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publication Co., 2007), 1118.