24f1ba No.819612[Last 50 Posts]
A few weeks ago, my priest (Catholic), gave a homily that I have been having trouble coping with. If anyone here could help me come to terms with this I would appreciate it.
The homily centered around this concept of predestination. As far as I had been aware up until this point, only Calvinists believed in predestination, but my priest gave this full length homily about how God already knows about who among us will be going to heaven or hell, as he is all knowing, therefore to a degree predestination exists.
This, coupled with some frustration I have had with my own recurring sins, has left me in somewhat perpetual anger and borderline hatred towards our existence. The reason for this is as follows. We are constantly told as Christians that God LOVES us and he sent Jesus to OPEN THE GATES OF HEAVEN. Well, if predestination is true, that means God is creating people who he knows will not go to heaven. He is creating people just to watch them writhe around in pain for 70 years and then die. We are supposed to be thankful to God for the gift of his son. I ask you this, if I am among those who God already knows is going to hell, THE SACRIFICE OF JESUS MEANS LITERALLY NOTHING TO ME. And yes, if predestination is true, I know where I am heading.
I have tried to just ignore this concept but it is festering. I feel never ending rage about this. It is unfair. Why would a supposedly loving God even make us like this? If he knows everything he would know how to fix our lives so we DONT go to hell. He CAN do it. So if he were loving he WOULD do it. This concept of my life being completely futile is absolutely repulsive for me.
Help.
____________________________
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baea9e No.819613
>>819612
It's simple: we have free will, and God sees our free actions eternally, therefore He knows who will freely be saved, therefore there is predestination, as He allows us to do this, and accepts it as what reality is when creating the world. God doesn't desire the death of a sinner, so He in all likelihood tried to make the world in such a way that as many as could be saved, were saved. Creation was a necessary act, and the creation of beings was also an eternally necessary act, so free will could not not exist. So then what? You have to make beings with free will, and some will inevitably reject you? Damage control. It's not that hard to accept anon.
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baea9e No.819614
>>819613
Also note, it's not futile since you are free to choose the outcome every second of your existence. You decide what God knows about your end. Does He know a sinner who earns Himself, or a saint who saves Himself? What did God see when making your soul? What did He see before the beginning of creation? You decide.
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baea9e No.819615
>>819614
damns himself* damn it.
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24f1ba No.819617
>>819614
But I literally don't decide if it has already been decided
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24f1ba No.819619
>>819613
He made a world so the maximum number could be saved? Why not ALL. Why not just NOT create souls he knows will be dammed already? He has the power to do THAT.
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d48beb No.819620
>>819612
I'm told Garrigou-Lagrange's book Predestination will answer this for you, but I don't know where you can get a copy these days. I want one myself.
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01ee25 No.819622
>>819613
A somewhat decent analogy for this is of a chess master playing a total novice - even though the novice has all the freedom to win he needs, the outcome is a foregone conclusion. God doesn't "make" you do things, but your own nature is also entirely predictable to him.
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24f1ba No.819623
>>819620
Thank you for the reading material and not being a holier than thou c*nt.
https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/predestination-the-meaning-of-predestination-in-scripture-and-the-church-9780895556349
This seems to be the cheapest place to order it, by the way.
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f8ae5e No.819628
>>819617
You're looking at it all the wrong way. If I asked you a question and knew what answer you were going to give me, did I influence your decision?
God creates everyone with the full potential and ability to be saved. He also knows who will reject him despite all this and despite the ultimate sacrifice.
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24f1ba No.819634
>>819628
Nope! Terrible analogy!
Its more like if I wrote a computer program to chose the wrong answer then asked the question. God decided every aspect of us. Then saw we would go to hell. Then, instead of fixing us, MADE US ANYWAY TO DIE.
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18b6ca No.819644
>>819634
>God decided every aspect of us.
How far do you think this goes? Since we could still die as fetuses, it's not since then at least so circumstance then free will is what follows.
>Its more like if I wrote a computer program to chose the wrong answer then asked the question
If the program is designed to choose yes and no (right and wrong) on it's own during it's run time and that's all the creator expects, then it's working as intended. If the program kills it's fellow programs and rebel against the creator, it's not hard to imagine why it won't get backed up.
>MADE US ANYWAY TO DIE
This doesn't mean much in the larger scheme if you believe in this religion about heaven.
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6dc9d8 No.819649
>>819612
Mind-melt. Somewhere along the way I think Christianity got into huffing philosophical paint-thinner so you get this whacked out speculation. Truth of the matter is that if predestination is true, you still do not know if you are predestined. Same for philosophical determinism, if determinism is true, you cannot know if it is true. The Bible doesn't rule on the matter, the most you can say is that God knows certain future events, and I wouldn't push it further for reasons below.
When you get onto this subject you're asking for trouble; it's hubris we know from Job not to out-think God or attempt to out-think Him, this is just another "where are the foundations of the earth set?" type questions, it's just beyond your capacity to reason. You'll also quickly see that predestination is incompatible with the Christian answer to the problem of evil, that evil exists so that the believer will spurn worldly goods because they are corrupted by moths and rust, and will therefore lay up treasure in heaven.
Also consider that nature/the world works according to laws, and spirit works according to spirit. Predestination would make perfect sense if I assented to the notion that God is going to abide by YOUR legalistic and individual interpretation. But really, your emotional belaboring just convinces me that you are wrong. If former prostitutes are in heaven, as Jesus says they are, I think it will be fine.
So you see, all you've set upon is the axiom that God is unforgiving and cruel because you insist He is on the basis of some spurious theory. You've confined God arbitrarily until He's just like an Old Testament legal code (hence not anything like God, but rather more like the old rabbis who killed Him) you haven't answered your own problem of evil (getting rid of God doesn't solve the problem of evil no matter how much you try to ignore it), and worst of all, you have murdered a thread!
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a32a79 No.819661
Predestination is very important and most people are getting it wrong. But here's a simple thing for you to think about that no one can deny.
Before God creates the reprobate, he infallibly knows they will go to Hell. He doesn't cause them to reject him but he knows they will reject him. He can choose easily not to create this person. He could of made the world with just a few children who died after their baptism and incredible creations like St. Mary and St. Joseph. The reprobate doesn't ever have to be conceived or God can take their life in the womb etc. God knows infallibly if this person is born and lived this life they will reject me and go to Hell. And God doesn't stop that. It's trivial for such a person never to be created. God could choose
to take the child's life before the age of reason.
Unless your theory can really explain why God does this you won't get it. But St Augustine, St Thomas and St Paul in scripture(Romans) actually pretty explicitly explain why.
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2fd55b No.820795
>>819661
Please explain further anon
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0dc86b No.820798
If I put a bowl of icecream in front of you and a bowl of rusty nails I know which one you'll eat without it being predestined.
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a32a79 No.820810
>>820798
This is not predestination. God is the first cause of people going to Heaven. He acts first before us. This is the stupid 'predestination' that modern Catholics who have even heard of predestination (most have never heard, and then others think oh no thats Calvinism).
>>819661
I've written about this many times on this board I should save it again I'm a bit lazy. Did you get that part I wrote so far or what don't you get. Essentially though God is writing a story, it's more animated than JK Rowling since it's God but it's still a story.
God predestines someone to go to Heaven not because of any of their works. The people who are not predestined go to Hell but (technically) it's their fault and not God, but still God chose to create that person. He could have not created that person. So why? Well honestly and this might make you feel strange but it's for the elect and Gods pleasure. We will enjoy seeing them in Hell. St. Thomas said this explicity in the Summa.
People do like seeing justice though. There is all those justiceporn subs or well just think about that LGBT who hates the church actively works to destroy insult and mock it, mocks the faithful, and thinks they're getting away with it. Haha guess what buddy, how is Hell now. Seeing God's justice will be delightful to us, so that's why they are created.
People falsely say that God predestines the people he knows will accept him. This is false it goes against scripture because in Romans it explicitly says that he predestines his elect before they are created and not for any work that we do. You should read the Summa on predestination and then the scripture involved and really think about it. Most people are semi pelagians actually. It requires you to really change the way you look at life in my opinion.
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c176be No.820815
Imagine it from a tech standpoint.
Do you know how the random number generator in the game Doom works? It chooses from a known table of random numbers, and incrementing which number is selected from this table every so often. What this boils down to is, if you know how much time has passed in the game and the exact actions you took, you can know the state of the random number generator and how any creature in the game will behave. This is a technique used by speedrunners.
Now, multiply that times infinitely more complex. If you had perfect ontological knowledge of the entire state of another human's mind and the state of the universe, down to the cellular level at any moment, you could predict with complete accuracy how that human would act given any particular situation.
We can't do that because we don't, and can't, ever have that level of knowledge.
God can.
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c176be No.820816
>>820815
And, adding onto this, remember that God exists outside of time. Some concepts that we have words for, like omnipotence and omniscience, that we can reason about to a point, still don't map cleanly onto a being who exists outside of our time and outside the rules of causality.
It's a mystery, one that won't be answered until after your death here, and maybe not even then. We simply can't comprehend it yet.
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71d940 No.820848
>>819612
I’ll put it simply OP you can choose to follow God or choose to disobey him.
Worrying about who is saved and who isn’t is a meaningless endeavor that only leads to suffering.
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d32328 No.820857
Read Ephesians in the KJV OP.
There is an elect. We are chosen by a Sovereign God. Grace is unmerited ( https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grace ), if you are saved by choosing god, or damned by rejecting him, then merit has entered into the equation. Those who say you have to accept Christ or that you can reject him are wrong. God's elect are drawn to him and he is irresistible. Be happy that you are drawn to the things of god, that you are convicted of your sins, that you war with the flesh, that GOD HAS CHOSEN YOU.
t. Dutch Reform master race
>It is unfair.
No it is completely fair. God is just to send everyone one of us to hell.
>Why would a supposedly loving God even make us like this?
For a long time I thought God was completely malevolent. When I learned there was a benevolent side to him at all, it was an improvement for me. He is to be feared and loved.
>So if he were loving he WOULD do it. This concept of my life being completely futile is absolutely repulsive for me.
Nope. He has to manifest the fullness of himself. He is All in All.
To comfort you I will tell you this OP. Evil is finite. Hell itself will be conquered. Only the good is infinite. There are those destined to be destroyed in the lake of fire but that which is destroyed is only temporal. The divine part is never destroyed. The greater portion of God and the ultimate reality of him is good, destruction having an end in itself, and only a third of the angels rebelling against God.
Your life isn't futile if you're one of his elect. Just ask god for his light.
If you're not. Do not worry too much. It is an evil nature which you have and which will be destroyed. Nothing of value is ever lost in the lake of fire.
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5fc88f No.820873
It had to happen because of free will. God knows the ending of our life, but he allows us to take responsibility to decide where we are going. God gave you a chance, but it’s your fault if you reject that chance
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2a3554 No.820878
>>819612
>>819634
Think about what exactly you're asking God to do here. The people who go to Hell are there because they intentionally, consciously, and knowingly reject God and His moral law. The only way for God to "fix" that would be to completely take away their ability to reject Him. Would that be the action of a loving God, to your mind? Would a loving God entrap a soul within a body and mind without free will? That people choose damnation is an eternal tragedy, and it should be distressing to us, but it's a logical conclusion of a world where people can meaningfully choose to be saved.
Here, CS Lewis answered your objections better than I can. Read The Problem of Pain.
https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/lewiscs-problemofpain/lewiscs-problemofpain-00-h.html
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2a3554 No.820880
>>819634
>Its more like if I wrote a computer program
Let me stop you right there. People are not like computer programs. Your decisions are not inevitable results of events and conditions beyond your control. Rather, your decisions are under your control.
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c176be No.820970
>>820880
Only in the most coarse sense of the term. People's actions are a result of many things.. their upbringing, their mood, and so forth. Some actions will provoke a reaction that is immediate, strong, and predictable.
For instance, if I blaspheme on this board, the mods will ban me. There is a rational process happening there, to recognize blasphemy and such, but the cause and effect are known with certainty ahead of time.
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fabbb2 No.821000
>>820857
Are you sure He elects people in a sense? Doesn't the Lord just knows everyones fate but creates them either way? Like for example, He doesn't make a person become a Saint, but He knows due to their actions they will be one.
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0ef91a No.821005
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>819612
It's a big mystery and God exists outside of time so the whole thing is really confusing, look into compatibilism, we are accountable for our actions despite them being foreknown.
This is pretty complicated, but check out this James White debate - I'm not saying I'd go this far, but he makes a good case that Heaven is inherently unfair.
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baea9e No.821006
>>821005
Calvinism/the Reformed Tradition is horrific, and if it were true this whole religion would be worthy of the harshest condemnation.
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c63426 No.821028
>>821005
>but he makes a good case that Heaven is inherently unfair.
that's an interesting way to phrase it, but yes; it is completely 'unfair' that anyone goes to Heaven
the scripture goes so far as to say it's scandalous that God would condescend to rescue such rebels as man
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0234a8 No.821046
>>819612
Predestination is a christian concept, the thing Calvinists believe in is double-predestination a.k.a. God makes souls explicitly to burn in hell and suffer for all eternity a.k.a. super heresy.
When asked how this is characteristic with the rest of the bible where God says he wants everybody to be saved and how God loves everybody they generally answer something in the line of "Dude you just don't understand" and argue that we cannot comprehend how God thinks but it's per definition love.
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c63426 No.821048
>>821046
> they generally answer something in the line of "Dude you just don't understand" and argue that we cannot comprehend how God thinks but it's per definition love.
talk to many Calvinists, do you?
the same sort of Calvinists who would point to certain key verses like God saying 'Jacob I loved, Esau I hated' or speaking of Pharoah 'I will harden his heart' ?
how about the kind of Calvinist who would look to greater themes in Scripture such as God's Justice, and the assertion that 'the Judge of All The Earth will do right', and that true Justice for mankind would be that every single one of we reprobates would be condemned to eternal fire before we are even conceived, so as not to mar His good earth with our rebellion against its Creator – so it is a scandal of the Cross that this same God would deign to rescue even one of us, though it be to the praise of His glorious Grace?
as to God being loving, well yes; but to Whom does God owe love if not to the Three Persons of the Trinity first and foremost – and if God the Father were to decide that it were best that God the Son not suffer the ignominy of Humanity's war against His Person; or if God the Son desired to uphold the Father's name from the assault of man's rebellion, and acting in unison so consign us to eternal flame: where would be the wrong in that – in fact, would it not be better that God never suffer our presence at all ?
but instead this patient and loving Three Persons act in unison from before the beginning in a plan of redemption, glorifying each other in their roles as Father, Son and Spirit; the Father patiently withholding His wrath and instead giving to the Son a people to be His reward, the Son redeeming this people from rightful wrath and so glorifying His Father, and the Spirit humbly contending with the hearts of these predestined people so as to bring their dead souls to life, thus loving Father and Son - each of these Persons demonstrating a long-suffering patient lovingkindness first to each in their putting up with man for even an iota, and only then to fallen man
now anon, i think you'll recognise that i don't think so little of you as to say, 'Dude, you just don't understand', because i've explained matters thus far in the expectation that you'll be able to grasp the train of thought; but if you really can't comprehend how verses such as 'God is Love' are compatible with those which speak of eternal torture for those who remain in a rebellious blasphemy of the Holy Spirit to their dying day, i have to ask, do you understand the unquenchable wrath of God for evil?
if not, allow me to illustrate it a little
we
are
evil
by very nature, in every imagination and intent we are wicked all the day long, and anyone who says otherwise is arguing with their very Creator who declares this in both Genesis 6 and Genesis 8 - and to disagree with God on this is itself an act of evil against the Eternal which demands eternal wrath
moreover, God is infinite in all His attributes, so just as He is eternally and infinitely loving, He is eternally and infinitely 'angry at the wicked… all the day long', and much as the Three Persons will be satisfied in the absolute and complete fulfilment of the Plan of Redemption – for whatever God sets to do, He does – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit will be equally satisfied at the display of Their infinite wrath
this is an act of love, not for men, but toward each other; gracing each one with the gift of pouring out all vengeance on those who would sully the Majesty of the other
>>821046
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071385 No.821134
>>821006
Indeed. Predetermination removes moral agency from man and is thus heresy.
Protestantism is like far eastern thought where "fate" becomes all powerful and man simply a stupid vessel either for God or the devil. The devil doesn't have that kind of power morons, stop preaching Manicheanism.
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0ef91a No.821210
>>821134
I feel like Ephesians 1-2 and John 15 kind of make it clear it isn't man doing the choosing…
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aa8062 No.821255
>>820878
Best post of the thread
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08e3cf No.824782
>>820857
Are you subscribing to annihilationism or universalism? Aspects of your post strongly imply this.
>>820880
>Let me stop you right there. People are not like computer programs. Your decisions are not inevitable results of events and conditions beyond your control. Rather, your decisions are under your control.
Isn't this contrary to everything this anon >>820815 posted, which has gone unrebuked?
>>821046
>Predestination is a christian concept, the thing Calvinists believe in is double-predestination a.k.a. God makes souls explicitly to burn in hell and suffer for all eternity
The distinction between normal and double predestination REALLY bends my mind and cannot fathom how there is actually any real distinction between the two. How is it not the case that when God predestines the elect to salvation, by virtue of doing this by extension by default the inescapable logical consequence is that those he doesn't elect are predestined to damnation (aka double predestination)?? Am I misunderstanding something extrememely obvious here? I simply cannot fathom how one (pre destination of the elect) does not entail the other (predestination of the damned)?? I have never understood this!!
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fabbb2 No.824785
>>824782
I believe predestination is that the Lord knows who's going to be damned or not being all knowing, but doesn't really make people to be damned. Double predestination is the Lord specifically making people to be damned.
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08e3cf No.824793
>>824785
ok with this phrasing of it I can see why you *might* think there is an actual distinction between normal and double PD. For all intents and purposes though, practically speaking, taking the end result into account, how is it not the case that by virtue of God chosing to elect some purely by grace and of no merit of those chosen, he by extension does damn those who he doesn't choose (and by extension of his foreknowing, literally does make those people to be damned - isn't this precisely what Rom 9:22 is about?).
Note, I'm not saying the damned don't deserve their damnation or that it is unjust, I'm only questioning how it can possibly be the case that double predestination does not necessarily follow from predestination.
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fabbb2 No.824801
>>824793
Well try to think of it as this if it helps. God doesn't send anyone to hell, people send themselves to hell because they rejected the Lords Love and Life. Sure, the Lord could've made us all good, but what would be the point of our goodness if we have no freewill?
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2a3554 No.824804
>>820815
Chemical predestination is a bad meme. The entropy, that is randomness, of the universe is constantly increasing. This means that for any given chemical reaction, even under identical circumstances, there are multiple possible outcomes and whichever one comes true isn't necessarily dependent on any external condition. And entropy increases with every chemical reaction. Something as complex and full of chemical reactions as the human body is practically an entropy factory. Even from a purely materialist standpoint, nothing is predestined in the way you're suggesting.
But there's more to a human life than his material body. There's also his spirit, from which his reason is derived and which isn't bound to any physical laws whatsoever. Thus, if you had the perfect ontological knowledge which you had described, but lacked true fore-knowledge, you still wouldn't be able to perfectly predict every action a man would take.
You can't imagine it from a tech standpoint. Men aren't programs. God does know where your soul will end up, but that's because he's truly omniscient, not just because he knows the entire current state of your mind and the universe. God did not set the universe in motion in such a way that damnation for anyone was inevitable.
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08e3cf No.824815
>>824801
>Well try to think of it as this if it helps.
Wishful thinking or 'trying to think' of something in a different way simply to escape what is otherwise the logical consequence of something isn't a good way to go about thinking about things if you ask me..
>>824801
>Sure, the Lord could've made us all good, but what would be the point of our goodness if we have no freewill?
None of us are good though, and the Lord doesn't save us 'because we're good,' he saves some of us in spite of our (lack of) good.
What he could do, as an alternative to/to address the logical consequence of only saving some (i.e. as already stated, that consequnce being necessarily by extension of saving some, not saving others, and thereby damning them) is save everyone rather than some. They'd be no less free than the free people who God has chosen to be part of the elect, purely of his grace and of no merit of their own?
But maybe part of the confusion on my part and my communication with these issues is my view of and unfamliarity with how grace works (and potentially our conflicting//differing view on this). By default I lean to 'irrestible grace,' because it seems to me that anything outside of that would imply that we have done something to merit salvation, something I can't follow through with and don't want to affirm for fear of contradicting the gospel, the explicit scriptures and for fear of falling by pride.
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949b91 No.828278
>>819612
>Why would a supposedly loving God even make us like this?
god didnt make you or me. here a passage from the orthodox study bible:
15Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.(the world here is creation after the fall and under the dominion of satan. it is creation no longer oriented toward god, but temporary and dominated by inordinate passions[lk 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."{Jesus calls mammon/riches a master not because wealth is evil by nature, but because of the control it has over people}])For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.† 17And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
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f6df1b No.828292
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cad8e9 No.828296
>>819612
This is a good thing. Most people don't deserve heaven.
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bc26ec No.828314
>>828296
If you're supposing that you do and can look down on others, you need to come to Jesus because you don't understand the gospel.
Nobody deserves heaven. That's the whole point.
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fdc071 No.828352
>>819612
>Well, if predestination is true, that means God is creating people who he knows will not go to heaven.
That's what we Calvinists have been trying to explain to people… It's a logically necessary conclusion to draw. If God knows the future perfectly, then He knows before He ever creates someone where they're going to end up. Appealing to some mystical concept of libertarian will doesn't change that necessary conclusion.
And the primary reason our explanation is rejected is because of the content of your next sentence:
>He is creating people just to watch them writhe around in pain for 70 years and then die.
So then you have two choices. Either
A) God is bad.
B) God is good and there's an explanation for this, so let's find it.
>I ask you this, if I am among those who God already knows is going to hell, THE SACRIFICE OF Jesus MEANS LITERALLY NOTHING TO ME.
That's correct. Which is half the reason why Calvinists have the doctrine of Limited Atonement.
>And yes, if predestination is true, I know where I am heading.
Not how it works. You don't have any sort of revelation from God about where you're headed. If you're still breathing, there's still time to repent and believe. If you're able to, then that necessarily means that Jesus died for you. Unlike in the Catholic system, you can know for certain when you're actually saved. (The doctrine of Assurance.) You can know when you are saved, but you can't know for certain when you aren't until you're dead. That's how this works.
>I have tried to just ignore this concept but it is festering.
Good, maybe He's working on you. Anger is pretty normal at first. That has to be broken down.
>Why would a supposedly loving God even make us like this?
<The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
Because Romans 9. That was verse 20. I suspect that, at a surface level, you already know the answer to that question, but aren't ready to admit it yet. That God is pleased by the destruction of some people, but the salvation of others. That is indeed Paul's argument. To accept that answer require's God's grace, because it is such a massive blow to the human ego that the natural man can't bear it.
To be told by the Creator that you are a pot and He is the Potter, and that He has the right to make you into what ever sort of vessel that He wishes. It is such an absolutely devastating blow to human pride…And it's beautiful.
Here, maybe this will help you.
https://8kun.top/christian/res/827800.html
>>819614
>You decide what God knows about your end.
Really? So I can change God? I can make new knowledge that God has to learn? Are you sure that's where you want to go with this?
>What did God see when making your soul?
So God didn't know what I would do before He created me?
>>819622
>God doesn't "make" you do things, but your own nature is also entirely predictable to him.
Indeed it is, and Who created our natures?
>>819619
>Why not just NOT create souls he knows will be dammed already? He has the power to do THAT.
That's an excellent question. And the proponent of libertarian will would say that it is because God willed not to interfere… Which of course is vain philosophy that has no roots in the holy scriptures.
>>819644
>If the program is designed to choose yes and no (right and wrong) on it's own during it's run time and that's all the creator expects, then it's working as intended.
Anyone who actually does any kind of programming will immediately recognize how silly that argument is. For a random choice to be made by a program, you have to pull a number from at least one existing source of entropy. For our purposes, entropy is basically chaos. However God has no sources of entropy from which to pull. He created EVERYTHING. There's nothing outside of His control or knowledge to draw from. "Randomness" doesn't exist to God. So He determines the outcome.
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529781 No.828377
>>828292
what do you mean? use more words than 1.
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fdc071 No.828396
>>828377
>what do you mean? use more words than 1.
He's probably referring to
>god didnt make you or me.
Which tbh does sound like something a gnostic would say, so you should probably clarify what you mean precisely.
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1f2193 No.828416
>>828292
>>828396
i mean god doesnt make humans anymore. he made the first few humans but now the world is the dominion of satan and today's humans are of the world. do you understand now? its why i posted the passage from the bible.
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973edf No.828435
>>828416
>i mean god doesnt make humans anymore.
So then… You don't believe human spirits are made by God? Or you don't believe humans born after Adam and Eve have spirits?
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1f2193 No.828437
>>828435
humans now are of the world and the world is the dominion of satan. adam and eve were of the father and back then the world wasnt the dominion of satan. you will pass away just like the world unless you do the will of god. it says so in the passage.
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bc26ec No.828442
>>828437
>>828416
Psalm 139
For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
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ae7e48 No.828443
>>828437
Satan rules the world but he didn't create it.
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d98b6b No.828449
>>828352
You say that as though mysticism is a bad thing.
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596095 No.828480
>>828449
>You say that as though mysticism is a bad thing.
Mysticism and anti-intellectualism go hand-in-hand. The only people who can be satisfied by the mystical are those who don't need answers. Bless your heart if that's good enough for you, but some of us need real explanations. God did not provide written revelation and tell us to "accurately handle the word of truth" just for us to act like He didn't thoroughly answser all this stuff.
>>828437
>humans now are of the world and the world is the dominion of satan.
Dodging the question only makes the accusation of gnosticism look accurate. I'll ask again: do you believe that human spirits are made by God?
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8756d8 No.828484
>>828480
i didnt dodge the question.
>do you believe that human spirits are made by God?
no. not anymore because the world is ruled by satan. god has no control over the world anymore thats why innocent children are born with disabilities, why good people die unfair deaths, why the world is unfair in general, why psychopaths """succeed""" in life etc etc. god created the world and back then when he created the first humans, those humans were of the father. you and i are not of the father, we are of the world and unless we do the will of god we pass away just like the rest of the world, just like most people. dont you understand? im repeating myself. im not a gnostic.
>>828443
yes, thats what i meant.
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2d4b9a No.828551
>>828484
>no. not anymore because the world is ruled by satan. god has no control over the world anymore
Okay, that's the direct answer I was looking for. Unfortunately that makes you a heretic by both Protestant and Catholic standards. You're reading way too much into that text, I assume in some misguided attempt to circumvent acknowledging the righteousness of the wrath of God.
>innocent children are born with disabilities,
There are no innocent children, and they're born with disabilities because of the effects of original sin… And sometimes because of their mother's choices.
>why good people die unfair deaths
There are no good people, no, not one, Romans 3:10 and God would be right in his choices either way because He is the Potter.
>why the world is unfair in general
"Fair" is such a relativistic term…
>you and i are not of the father,
I'm adopted.
>dont you understand?
I understand that your interpretation of that passage is incredibly unique. So much so that I've never heard anyone else, past or present, express that view.
>im not a gnostic.
Fair enough now. I'm not sure what your view would be called though.
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34dc5a No.828564
>>819612
>how God already knows about who among us will be going to heaven or hell, as he is all knowing
At what point does God claim to be all-knowing?
I don't ever once reading anything the Bible where God himself claims this. Now, I could be completely wrong, so if I am, please correct me. It's difficult to remember everything. But the way I've always thought of God is being all-powerful, not all-knowing. Isn't that the same thing, you ask? Well not exactly. Being all-powerful, God has the power to choose what he wants to know and what he doesn't want to know. In fact, you restrict God's power when you force him to be all-knowing. This removes his ability to choose what he wants to know, meaning he isn't all-powerful. Overall, the theory of him being all-powerful, this would completely destroy the Calvinist argument for predestination. If he's not all-knowing, then he isn't intentionally creating people to be doomed to Hell. Furthermore, this all supports the idea of free will. If everything is predestined as if he is all-knowing, we have no free will, and we're just taking a path that's already been laid out for us, meaning out choices do not matter as they've already been made for us.
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2d4b9a No.828588
>>828564
>I don't ever once reading anything the Bible where God himself claims this.
Psalm 139:4
<Even before there is a word on my tongue,
<Behold, O Lord, You know it all.
God's perfect knowledge has always been a Christian fundamental. It was even fundamental to pre-Rabbinic Judaism. YHWH is not like the pagan gods, which were made to resemble men. Ignorance of this is one thing, but to know and deny it puts someone outside the faith.
Psalm 139:2
<You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
<You understand my thought from afar.
He knows if you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake!
Psalm 139:7
<Where can I go from Your Spirit?
<Or where can I flee from Your presence?
<If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
<If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
<If I take the wings of the dawn,
<If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
<Even there Your hand will lead me,
You cannot escape Him. He is omnipresent, coterminous with all of creation and indefinitely beyond it.
Matthew 10:30
<But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
I'm sure there must be a few people in the world who can number the hairs on their own head, but I'm certain that most of us can't without the aid of a very complicated machine. Yet Jesus, Who IS God directly speaking, says that He and His Father have such intimate knowledge of you that they've got your hairs numbered. Which isn't overly surprisingly considering the Psalm where David talks about God weaving him together in his mother's womb.
1 Chronicles 28:9
<As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
Your heart may be an enigma to you, but to God you're like clockwork.
Psalm 90:8
<You have placed our iniquities before You,
<Our secret sins in the light of Your presence.
You can keep no secrets from God.
Isaiah 46:10
<Declaring the end from the beginning,
<And from ancient times things which have not been done,
<Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
<And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
There's countless other places, but you get the point. However I want to take this deeper. How does God know everything?
John 1:3
<All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Because He created everything that exists. There's nothing in existence that didn't come from Him, therefore there can't logically be anything that He doesn't know and understand. You may say then, "What if there's some other God-being out there and He just doesn't know about them?" Well God already answered that one, and we have no reason to doubt Him.
Isaiah 46:9
<For I am God, and there is no other;
<I am God, and there is no one like Me
>In fact, you restrict God's power when you force him to be all-knowing. This removes his ability to choose what he wants to know, meaning he isn't all-powerful.
That's a "can God create a rock that's so heavy that he can't lift it?" tier argument. God is consistent with His own nature. Plus you're anthropomorphizing God… Setting aside the fact that He isn't subject to time in the first place, why do you assume that there would ever be anything that He wouldn't want to continue knowing?
>If he's not all-knowing, then he isn't intentionally creating people to be doomed to Hell.
Yes, the entire basis for Free Will and Open-Theism is to "protect" God's character, which is actually based in an accusation against God.
>Furthermore, this all supports the idea of free will.
That's right, you have to deny the perfection of God's knowledge in order to consistently hold to libertarian will. You're wrong, but at least you're being consistent with your own logic.
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34dc5a No.828621
>>828588
While most of those aren't from God directly, it'd be wrong of me to discount their validity as it is scripture.
>why do you assume that there would ever be anything that He wouldn't want to continue knowing?
And vice versa? Why would you assume that he wishes to know everything?
>you have to deny the perfection of God's knowledge
Not necessarily. There's still the ability to know anything and everything. It merely instills that God has a sense of choice on the matter. What is perfection in our eyes compared to perfection in the eyes of the Lord?
But I digress. I was way off the mark. Thank you for the correction, anon. I guess I'll have to formulate another argument against predestination, if at all possible.
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bc26ec No.828627
>>828588
Open theism doesn't say God isn't all knowing, it says that knowing future events that he hasn't determined is a logical impossibility because they don't exist. He maintains omniscience.
This guy isnt arguing open theism
>>828621
>most of those aren't from God directly, it'd be wrong of me to discount their validity as it is scripture.
All scripture is God breathed
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a621ef No.828661
>>828621
>While most of those aren't from God directly
<And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Matthew 19:4. Why would Jesus be rhetorically asking the Sadducees whether or not they've read a certain passage from Genesis, as a refutation to their position, unless He considered it authoritative…? Yet we know Genesis was written by men.
Matthew 22:42-44
<“What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying,
<‘The Lord said to my Lord,
<“Sit at My right hand,
<Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet”’?
Jesus is quoting a Psalm, attesting that David spoke in the Spirit. As Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:16
<All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
In the Greek the word we translate as "inspired by God" is θεόπνευστος. Theo from theos, which means a god, or God in this context. Pneustos from pneuma, which is the word for breath, wind, or spirit. θεόπνευστος is literally God-breathed. All scripture is to be treated as if it were directly from the mouth of God Himself because it essentially is. Both the old testament and the new testament are prophetic in nature.
>And vice versa? Why would you assume that he wishes to know everything?
Because of His unchanging nature, and that it is a presupposition of the writers of every book of the bible that God does, in fact, know everything. 1 John 3:20
<for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
>It merely instills that God has a sense of choice on the matter.
That would contradict God's nature. It subjects Him to change.
>Thank you for the correction
You're welcome.
>I guess I'll have to formulate another argument against predestination
You could always just accept it. There are Methodists who do. One of the founders of Methodism did, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Whitefield But if you do decide to come up with another argument, I intend to stick around.
>>828627
>Open theism doesn't say God isn't all knowing, it says that knowing future events that he hasn't determined is a logical impossibility because they don't exist.
Asserting that "it's a logical impossibility", which I see no basis for, doesn't change the fact that this constitutes a denial of God's ability to perfectly know the future. Calling it omniscience doesn't make it omniscience either. That's just playing word games.
Considering all of the trillions or more things He created with a "Free Will", how would God be able to reliably predict anything about His creation if He can't logically know the overwhelming majority of most future events before they take place? This also leaves blank the answer to the question of, how does God know what He knows? And even worse, it relegates God to being time-bound and subject to change because He has to learn and therefore react to us.
It's also assuming that the future doesn't exist… Which would be news to many of the prophets, some of whom God gave visions of the future to.
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