/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

You should check out multiple churches, including the Orthodox.

At the same time, focus on reading the Bible. Figuring out who is and isn't in continuity with the people of God that is found in the Bible would be difficult if you do not read the Bible to begin with.

Orthodox here will tell you to go ahead, Catholics will tell you that you will go to hell because the Orthodox don't submit to St Peter, and Protestants will tell you that you will go to hell because the Orthodox believe in salvation by works. I'm joking, but I don't think you'll get very useful responses here, especially if you haven't read the Bible first to be able to distinguish who is and isn't claiming Biblical faith and dogma.

Why do you mention the Orthodox Church specifically?

>>810883

They don't appear as liberal as the protestant church does which gives shelter to illegal migrants for instance but is also acceptant towards all kinds of degeneracy.

>>810883

What should I look into if I wanna know more about the russian orthodox church and stuff

>>810883

>Catholics will tell you that you will go to hell because the Orthodox don't submit to St Peter

No, Orthdox don't submit to Rome and therefore are schismatic, but not heretics. There's a really big difference there. Orthodox and Catholics are not too different. f you're Catholic you can be confessed by an Orthodox priest and vice versa, and it's a valid sacrament. There are more differences inside each denomination than between them. For that reason, >>810881 go through the Orthodox and Catholic churches near you and join the one that convinces you the most. Just in the Catholic Church, Opus Dei, the Dominics, the Jesuits, and the Salesians, to name a few, all live religion in a different way. I'd worry about finding a church with a philosophy and attitude that matches yours first, and worry about it being Catholic or Orthodox second.

And remember that churches are for living religion in community. Some prefer a more intimate relationship with God and that's perfectly fine too.

>>810883

(op here btw)

>>810885

I can see that, but why the Orthodox specifically and not, say, the Catholics, or a more conservative flavor of Protestant (they must exist)?

>>810886

I can't tell you about German ressources about Orthodoxy, but for English, I recommend:

- The Living God (2 parts) (a catechism that follows the events of the gospels)

- The Incarnate God (2 parts) (a catechism that follows the liturgical year)

- The Orthodox Church, by Met. Kallistos Ware (a condensed history of the Orthodox Church)

- The Orthodox Way, by Met. Kallistos Ware (an approach to Orthodox Christianity from experience)

- The Jesus Prayer, by Fr. Lev Gillet (an introduction on contemplative prayer)

At least get your hands on "The Living God" and "The Orthodox Way". I would say they cover about everything that is really important.

The Russian Orthodox Church, also known as the Patriarchate of Moscow, is the biggest Orthodox Church (60% of Orthodox Christians are under Moscow, I believe). I'm not sure what else there is to say. Their jurisdiction is normally just Russia, but because of immigration in the 20th century many churches have stepped out of their boundaries and, in America and in Western Europe, you have multiple churches in the same territory (for instance: in France, most churches are either under Constantinople, Romania, or Moscow). So don't think too hard about which Orthodox church to join - just check out all those that you could realistically go to if you were to convert.

I can't really give the same advice about Catholic and Protestant churches since they largely outnumber Orthodox churches, and going to each and every one of them might be too much work and too much time to spend. I'll let you figure out what you'd rather do.

>>810887

The Councils of Lyon II, Florence, Trent, and Vatican I all proclaim dogma and anathematize those who reject them, and the Orthodox reject them… You could say "it doesn't really apply to them because they weren't around to participate" but they participated at Florence and most definitely reject its doctrinal definitions.

I mean, I don't mind if you tell me I'm not a heretic, but then please bring this to its logical conclusion and say that the Catholic councils past the 7th one aren't dogmatic.

But let's not derail this thread into yet another Catholic v. Orthodox battlefield. My original point was that a Catholic would obviously not recommend to the OP to become Orthodox and not Catholic.

>>810881

As Orthodox, I will of course say go on and some people already mentioned the literature so I'm not really useful regarding this. But I would add several comments that may supplement some points.

You shouldn't really think about which orthodox church to join, seeing that they have valid sacraments. Since you are German, just try to find a church that conducts liturgy in German so that it would be easier for you to participate in and you'll have easier time to understand what's going on. We also have kind of Mentor-pupil relationship, where a priest acts as your tutor to give you a guidance, so also make sure that priest that you'll choose as your mentor will be a decent and educated man.

Also while Orthodox theology isn't as liberal as Protestant one where everything is basically left to ones interpretation, it also isn't as dogmatic as Catholicism. While there are certain axioms and dogmas that are mainly expressed in Nicene creed, majority of things are left to the mystery and theories that are called theologoumena. This means that you may hear to or several bishops stating something that disagree with eachother, but this shouldn't really concern you or cause anxiety and use your discretion regarding such theologoumenas.

I hope it was kind of useful.

>>810896

It was Anon. Thank you

Catholicism in Germany is also sadly cucked to the point where unless you can find a TLM you're better off not even joining. You'll be paying ten percent of your income by state law to fund priests that basically spout heresies left and right.

>>810890

need to distinguish between Catholics who believe everything the Catholic Church has defined, and cultural Catholics who ignore heresy from bishops who aren't their diocesan bishop and go to their parish priest for sacraments. Cultural Catholics would tell a person in an Orthodox diocese to go to their parish church.

>>810931

Is there a church in Germany registered to recieve tithes from the government that isn't going to do whatever the government says? Going to church is an obligation, not a choice.

>>810931

>unless you have access to the best seats on the Ark, it's not even worth boarding

I mean, I'm all for the TLM, but this is pure stupidity.

>>810881

>>810931

Bear in mind that you should look to theology and doctrine when deciding to join a denomination, not "basedness". Asking which denom is the most "uncucked" one will only result in a cherry picking flame war in this board.

>>810881

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiZZVVNVI7A

You aren't a russian or greek, why larp as one?

>>810890

>Met. Kallistos Ware

>>810891

This guy is pro contraception and homosexuality, good way to show off the Orthodox Faith lol.

https://restlesspilgrim.net/blog/2016/02/25/orthodoxy-and-contraception/

This shows how historical the faith is, just changing position every decade. Ware cannot be trusted.

>>811346

I think it's more the result of secularism. There aren't many christians in europe who really believe in their faith, if you know what I mean.

>>811346

He is not "pro-contraception". The Orthodox Church is a book that recaps the current situation of Orthodoxy, with the good and the bad. He only remarks that some pastors consider non-abortifacient contraception permissible, which is neutrally a fact.

He is not "pro-homosexuality". He, however, pointed out the hypocrisy of Orthodox pastors who let wild fornicators have communion but excommunicate for lengthy periods of time homosexuals who may or may not have a partner but who do not engage in sex either way.

Do you believe that a book that presents the Orthodox Church should hide the very real fact that there are liberal pastors in the Church, regardless of it being positive or negative?

Do you believe that a bishop is to be criticized for pointing out that our pastors tend to be overly lenient to fornicator heterosexuals but overly harsh to chaste homosexuals?

Do you believe that a bishop is to be criticized for pointing out that our theology is underdevelopped and we don't have a solid answer as to why women cannot be priests, for instance?

If you do, then do what you want, but remember that mocking those who humbly show their ugly facade is a sin.

>>811346

Also, what's with the "Orthodoxy changes its position every decade" thing? The first edition was released I think 2 or 3 years after Kallistos had converted. The latest edition is after 20 years of being a bishop. Obviously his ability to present the situation of the Church has evolved.

But already, a few years after the release of Kallistos' book, Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras said, in reaction to Humanae Vitae:

>If a man and a woman truly love one another, I do not have to enter their bedroom, everything they do is holy.

>>811422

It's that book. This cover is that of the 3rd (latest) edition, which was a well-needed update (since the book was originally written in the 60s, when the situation of the Russian Church was very different, and soon after the author had converted as well).

>>811041

I mean, you aren't wrong, of course. You should hop on the arc even if you don't have prime seats. You are not wrong.

And then, it's still hard for people like me who are trying they hardest to will themselves to be baptized, only to go to Mass and hear, and I quote the priest today, "there are as many ways to God as there are people" and "why are we still fighting with the Protestants? Transsubstantiation, Annihilation, Consubstantiation – it doesn't matter! Only God matters!"

This doesn't seem right to me and I have a hard time accepting they would drain 10% of my income for these masses and priests when I could just donate it privately to FSSP churches.

>>811447

That's what I'm saying. Metropolitan Kallistos had only been a recent convert to Orthodoxy (and went under the name Timothy Ware) when he wrote the first edition of the book, in the 60s. The third edition of the book, which is the latest one, is a well-needed update, because the situation in the Church has changed a lot within these 50 years, and Timothy Ware himself became a monk and a bishop, now named Kallistos.

In the Orthodox Church (and I assume in the Catholic Church also), when you are baptized, you must take on a saint's name. When you are tonsured (when you are consecrated as a monk or nun), you must take a new name again, to signify that you are now entirely dedicating your life to prayer and to serving the Church. And in Eastern tradition, only monks can become bishops.

What draws you to orthodoxy rather than anywhere else?

>>811451

I think they are more conservative I guess

>>811455

I am pretty sure that we're not more conservative than the Catholics, no matter how hard this narrative gets pushed.

And I'm sure there must be at least a couple of traditionalist Protestant churches in Germany.

>>811451

You know the protestant church gives shelter to illegal migrants and stuff like that. They are hostile towards their own people.They tolerating and promoting all kinds of degeneracy

>>811455

More conservative than what? I can tell you right now that Baptist churches are typically very conservative.

>>811462

Where did I ever say anything about protestant churches? Promoting degeneracy is not biblical, and if you go to a Baptist church that holds the Bible as it's sole authority you'll see that they don't spread degeneracy at all and are generally very good people. Put your faith in Jesus Christ to save you, not an institution, and once you're saved you'll know how to spot heresy.

Become Catholic!

>>811345

The orthodox church is also 'catholic' or 'universal'. You don't have to be a specific ethnicity to join.

>>810881

Hey fellow Germanon, there are a few more conservative Lutheran churches left, namely the churches within the ELFK and the SELK.

You could also come home to Rome :)

>>819771

do you happen to live in hanover?

Join the Catholic Church

Start watching jay dyer videos on YouTube. Do not join in in the hersey of the Roman Catholic church. There is simply nothing Orthodox about it.

>>824974

There is nothing orthodox about orthoLARPers like dyer.

>>824983

>>824982

Don't see any arguments here….and how is it role playing when the tradition is still alive and well and one can still participate? Yall are just coping , we've all seen the novus ordo mass dude.

>>824986

"Yall just copeing" is just a cope. Prove me wrong

you cant

>>824993

What are we coping about ? The EO church does not have clown mass, it does not have interpretive dance mass nor hip hop mass. And the EO church does not have priests coming out and saying it's time to support our homo children.

You're response is a literal No U.

>>825013

>You eastern schismatics have women's ordination.

We don't lmao. Do you mean deconess? We don't have any of those, and they were a part of the church like 100 years after christ.

>accepted contraception.

Sometimes women need birth control when they have reproductive problems. Other than that it is known that all sex must come with the intent of reproduction. The fathers all taught this.

>Schism threatening to tear your entire church in half. You may even live to see The ecumenical patriarch of Moscow be a thing.

This. This right here. This is everything wrong with y'all. Our schisms are bureaucratic squabbles over territory. That isn't doctrine. Its never been doctrine. Yall have messed up doctrine to such a degree that it might even be said Roman Catholicism isn't even christianty any more. The pope is pushing for some kind of bend of the knee to modernity and turning Rome into a neutralized perennialist feel good party. You may live to see the RC church cease to be christian.

>>825017

>we dont have deconesses

https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/517/article/grant-her-your-spirit

>The Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Greece voted in Athens on Oct. 8, 2004, to restore the female diaconate.

https://publicorthodoxy.org/2017/11/17/support-alexandria-deaconess/

>THE REVIVAL OF THE ORDER OF DEACONESS BY THE PATRIARCHATE OF ALEXANDRIA

https://gloria.tv/article/sbVRsLFAiKnK3WodWUHmAqCdK

>he Greek-Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, Egypt, introduced in November 2016 the “order of deaconess”. According to patriarchateofalexandria.com in February 2017 it was “the first time in the history of missions in Africa” that such a “consecration” took place.

>Since then, the validity of this decision has been questioned. On October 24, nine liturgists and theologians published a letter of support on panorthodoxcemes.blogspot.com. The letter claims that contemporary Greek bishops have ordained deaconesses, "In fact, the Church of Greece established a School of Deaconesses, which in the end developed into a school for social workers.”

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Deaconess

>The Russian Orthodox Church still has deaconesses.

So here you are with your pants down in your first lie

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Birth_Control_and_Contraception

>When opponents of contraception look for biblical support for their position, they inevitably point to the story of Onan in Genesis 38, claiming that the sin committed by Onan was his commission of coitus interruptus. However, this is an almost exclusively Western reading of the text.

Mental gymnastics for the acceptance of Onanism and your 2nd lie

Thats 2 for 2.

> our Schism is all bureaucracy

This is the problem with you. Instead of submitting to the leader Christ Himself appointed you get autistic over the smallest things and schism over it. Instead of respecting Christ the King's decision to give the keys to the House of David to His prime minister, you think he made all the bishops the leaders of the Church. You opted for the era of Judges instead of the Kingdom of Israel.

>>825011

>contraception, and teaching on divorce

This unironically stems from rejection of the Filioque. You'll never have a proper appreciation for marriage and procreation until you understand how it's designed to imitate the Trinity. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. In imitation of this, the child proceeds from the father and the mother. Saying that contraception and divorce are acceptable is akin to saying that the love between the Father and the Son can be blocked off or even separated, which is obviously both impossible and horrific. The family must adhere to the model set by the Trinity if it intends to survive. But with anti-Filioquism, you lack this understanding, and the family suffers for it.

>>810883

>Orthodox here will tell you to go ahead, Catholics will tell you that you will go to hell because the Orthodox don't submit to St Peter

I was gonna complain about this but >>810887 already did a pretty good post about it.

>>810881

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits." (Mt 7:15)

Do some google search, look up churches near you and visit them. Talk to the priest after mass. You say there's an Ortho community nearby, give it a try. I've never been to an Orthodox mass, but I imagine they'll be welcome of newcomers. You'll spend a couple of hours and you've literally have everything to win. Go and try it out, even if it's only "to see how it is".