/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>810480

How much longer until people start to calling Moscow the new ecumenical patriarch or Eastern Pope?

>>810481

Not gonna happen. In contrast to the image the Russian media try to push for Kirill in the west, he's not very loved by Russians at all and acts like that are only going to make things worse.

>>810482

That anon here

I agree. I just figured Moscow would be doing this preemptively trying to usurp Constantinople in their position as ecumenical patriarch. Especially with they're Schism formalizing I see it as an inevitability. As a Catholic I'm praying for you guys in Russia. I really hope 1917 doesn't come back.

>>810485

Thank you my friend. Personally i'm not afraid because i have much trust in the church and whoever tries to harm the church fails in the end and history has proved that. I just feel bad when clerics try to use the faith for political resons, it has happened before and it always had a bad ending for everyone.

>>810503

I would be concerned. KGB interests hold Moscow, and they have an increasingly larger presence over Constantinople with their diasporatic churches (China, Japan, America, and Ukraine, although the Russians have granted America Autocephaly, the others refuse to acknowledge them because of their own interests). Really does come down to Slavs and Greek churches, and the GOA at least has had many issues lately. If Russia breaks off, almost certainly the Orientals will come back. Unless I'm wrong, most Slavic churches besides Russia side with Bartholomew in practice if not officially. It's also incredibly likely that ROCOR will just take over the position of the Russian church like they did in the Soviet era. Russians seem to be particularly schismatic nos that I think of it.

I have faith the church will stand, but it will suffer a great deal for a long time. Losing Moscow is not a good thing, it will only weaken us all.

>>810505

To clarify the issue I'm most concerned about; the diasporatic churches under Russia are very likely to go with Russia rather than be absorbed by other Churches. The Greek Church has a large presence in America particularly, and, although the OCA is recognized as autonomous by Russia, it is not seen as such by the rest of the Orthodox World because if they did it would be a violation of the OCA turf to operate in America. Three situations can occur from here, the first is the most idealistic but in response against the Russians leaving they would cut a deal to grant the OCA full autonomy while maintaining a presence in America, the second is that they elevate ROCOR to the Russian Church again and file the OCA into it, and the third is that ROCOR and/or OCA will remain with Moscow, causing a number of their churches to flee to Constantinople. The only absolute good to come from this is that almost assuredly the Orientals will come into Communion as the only churches to hold off on making key agreements to even start negotiations are the Moscow centered churches.

>>810505

It is not true that Russia or Russian affiliated churches have a larger presence abroad. In America, over 50% of the Orthodox belong to the Greek Orthodox Church. In Ukraine, nearly 50% identify with the new Ukrainian autocephalus church and only around 14% with the Russian one. China and Japan have a very small Orthodox presence in the first place. The numbers in Russia herself are even more devastating. Russia absolutelly dominates in the Orthodox religious media that's why you may have a wrong opinion about their actual power and numbers.

http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/assets/files/studies/2018-12-FastQuestionsAndFastAnswersAboutOrthodoxGeography.pdf

https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=ukr&cat=reports&id=862&page=1&fbclid=IwAR0Cn8Cx0XNymrUDqQi-6_sdpl9Eq-uVcaDJ_BhW_wfXyge6KrYlJ_bOhGU

All the above differenr jurisdictions in America and elsewhere are very uncanonical actually. It's a recent and very serious problem for Orthodoxy that must being taken care of as soon as possible. Unfortunatelly we lost our chance in 2016 and now we have to wait some more.

>>810506

>The only absolute good to come from this is that almost assuredly the Orientals will come into Communion as the only churches to hold off on making key agreements to even start negotiations are the Moscow centered churches.

According to our Coptic cousin that frequents this board, wasn't the grinding of negotiations to a halt the result of some Athonite monks opposing it(though Russia acting like Russia didn't help)?

>>810514

I remember that thread. I believe those athonite monks were from Russia.

>>810514

I'm not sure. I could only find a small breadcrumb trail that pointed to difficulties regarding pan-orthodox unity as an issue. There was a council back in 2014 that sought to solve that issue, as well as of ecumenism. It was approved by half of the Orthodox Churches, with only the slavic sphere not signing it yet. Were Russia to leave, the first full steps could be undertaken. Can't find anything about Athonite monks opposing it, nor could I imagine a reason they would. If Moscow split, those monks more than likely will remain and just join ROCOR anyhow.

>>810480

Ok I'm going to be non judgemental here…

Is the Imperial Mansion where the patriarch resides in a national, historic monument of significance and is it maybe really up for restoration?

>>810585

The topic has become more an excuse to discuss issues regarding the Moscow Patriarchate. From the article itself:

>The former residence of Russia’s imperial family, which is being converted for use by the patriarch, occupies almost 2.5 hectares (6.1 acres) of land south of St. Petersburg and was designated as church property in 1994.

>The presidential property office awarded the renovation contract valued at 2.8 billion rubles ($43.4 million) to St. Petersburg-based design and construction company Geoizol in 2018, The Bell reported.

>Patriarch Kirill's spokesman later confirmed that the property is being renovated for him and noted that the church "has no immediate connection" to the works.

In short, it's a "gift" from the Russian government to the Church, and it is being renovated on the governments dime, not the churches, specifically for Kirill. This is yet another example of the bribery and excess of the Moscow Patriarchate. Unsurprising, considering they are trying to curry as much power as possible and establish a National Church very tied to Russian Patriotism. It's not that it's being renovated, it's not that it's a luxurious home for a major Patriarch, it's that it's bought and paid for by the government that should be concerning.

>>810618

>bought and paid for by the government that should be concerning

<MUH separation of church and state

>>810485

The Catholic Pope lives in his own fricking Palace-City and you have the gall to say you are "praying" for the Russian Orthodox over a mere 43 million dollars?

>>810632

>mere 43 million dollars

>mere 43 million dollars

>mere 43 million dollars

>>810628

The modern Russian government is most certainly not a government I would want involved in Church politics. We can see what happened when their predecessor meddled in the Catholic Church.

>>810585

Why would a Patriarch live in the imperial mansion in the first place? Can't he see that it is scandalous for the Russian people where a big part of the population live in poverty? All other Patriarchs live in humble cells because they're actually monks, only the Russian one gets to live in a mansion.

>>810632

You are not helping with the no u attitute. The Orthodox church was always in the side of the people, it was one with them and suffer together with them when the people suffer. The last time when the church took the side of the rulers was in Imperial Russia and you know how that end.

>>810650

The communist party are in good terms with the Russian church now unironically.

>>810480

>1917 imminent

Not this time Romists.

>>810650

pretty sure they aren't in government

>>810654

>The communist party are in good terms with the Russian church now unironically.

Because it's dying.

Their electorate is nostalgic pensioners that miss the glory days of the USSR.

Now, russian retirees are also religious, so you have this weird mix of nationalistic commies that try to act pro-orthodox.

>>810665

>Romist

Hello my ex-evangelical, born again Orthodox friend, i'm not a Catholic. Things are more serious than you may think and i don't see how you're so confident that something similar will not happen again. Reread the first article, history repeats herself.

>>810667

Aren't they the second largest party in Russia after Putin? Besides, it's the Russian church that acknowledge them, the Moscow Patriarch recently awarded the communist party. There's an identity crissis going on in Russian religion and politics. Also, Stalin's approval rates among Russians (over 70%) are not very promising for the future of the church over there.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/16/stalins-approval-rating-among-russians-hits-record-high-poll-a65245

>>810743

>Their place is still mostly from nostalgics.

>it's irrelevant.

This crap killed millions of Russians, persecuted their faith. You think communists being this high is not relevant?

>Stalin is a complex figure in Russia,

And we're again to:

Why is it that doubting the concept of "patriotic war" gets you sent in jail in Russia while you can be openly communist and praising Stalin and get away with it?

We may talk a great deal about muh complexity and sheit but the truth remains that it shows who makes the laws there.

Even if I would concede the defense of the "russian nation" in wwii which I take a huge issue with, it was mostly act because communists were not nationalistic, but internationalists and they were strongly against Christianity..you know the only thing to save souls of people.

At this point I will not create D n C posts I will just pray for your country and your church as well as for my Catholic church. We're truly in the moved days and larping about who's better off for this second, catholic, or orthodox does not help anyone.

From a practical point of view. Set aside stories of "atrocities" that got reported by Stalin and his comrades. Even if they're true their numbers are far less than the number from gulags and red terror.

Well denying them/let alone praising the invasion is deemed criminal now.

>>810650 this is completely fine.

I will just leave you with this. Make your own opinion about it. Perhaps I am just deluded and do not see the things as clearly as few communist russians who are nostalgic about the power past of USSR when all eastern europe was under godless communism. Really great days to be sure because you know…it is the type of contrarianism our system allows to grow so why not.

It all just makes me sick

>>810834

Personally i don't care about the Russian politics at all but more about the way the Russian church is handling things over there and how that affects the whole Orthodox churh. By reducing the faith to a mere ideology of the state you alienate the people away from the church and some kind of retributionis for certain. Before the communist revolution things were somewhat similar. Kirill today boasts that he builds 3 churches a day but those churches are empty.

>>810834

>This crap killed millions of Russians, persecuted their faith. You think communists being this high is not relevant?

Given their membership is mostly retirees, no.

I'm more concerned with Russia's age old tendency towards authoritarianism, lack of freedom of press, and all that jack.

Trying to lionize and whitewash their past stems from that.

Same thing happening in China.

>We may talk a great deal about muh complexity and sheit but the truth remains that it shows who makes the laws there.

Yeah.

Putin and his oligarchs.

He lets commies get seats, just as he supports right-wing ultranationalists and gives them positions.

If he suddenly decided they were a threat to him, you can be sure he'd ban and destroy them the next day.

>Well denying them/let alone praising the invasion is deemed criminal now.

Why in God's name would one praise the invasion?

It was a horrible thing for russians, setting aside soviet smear campaigns.

I see no reason one should praise it, and my country participated in Operation Barbarossa, for crying out loud.

Being a Whiteboo makes sense, and is pretty popular in Russia.

>At this point I will not create D n C posts I will just pray for your country and your church as well as for my Catholic church.

I'm not even russian.

>Perhaps I am just deluded and do not see the things as clearly as few communist russians who are nostalgic about the power past of USSR when all eastern europe was under godless communism.

People don't miss all the horrors of the USSR.

What they miss is the economic security, and geopolitcal power.

Similar thing with Americans going over the 50's.

They don't miss McCarthyism, living under the threat of nuclear apocalypse, propping dictatorships in the Third World, or heightened racial tensions.

But they do miss when America was a greater force in the world, and when some highschool dropout farmboy could get hired in a factory, and get 3 kids through college off the paycheck.

>>810846

And i agree.

But Russia 100+ years ago was in a way worse state, so i'm not afraid of October Revolution 2.0

>>810848

*one from Russia

>>810848

>I'm more concerned with Russia's age old tendency towards authoritarianism, lack of freedom of press, and all that jack.

Authoritarianism is good when guided by God and Church. And any good father is also a bit of an authoritarian, if he knows what he's doing. Stopping queers, degenerates, and blasphemers from ruining the fabric of society is what all Christian societies did before liberalism.

>>810830

>filioque

>made up in the 6th century

>contrary to the ecumenical councils

No, thanks.

>>810851

History has proved that authoritarianism is never good tho. Also queers and "degenerates" are sick people but they're God's children too and the job of the church is to act as a hospital for the souls, not deciding who's going to hell or not.

>>810864

How has history proven that? There's tons of good and bad examples. And the bible itself promotes kings. Our own Lord is the King of Kings. Are you going to say that we've suddenly become more evolved with the "liberal" model even though Christ himself is a king? This is the brainwashing Western education would teach, where it paints history as a ladder of progression and evolution. But that's not what Christians were ever called to do.

I'm concerned more with quarantining the sick first. You're not showing any love by inflicting them on everyone else. Especially children who are the most vulnerable. And you don't even have the cure for them anyways. Maybe it exists, but so far, nothing has worked. It's just an ideal at this point.

>>810851

There is simply no instance of a truly authoritarian government being also truly guided by God and Church.

I don't have an opinion about whether the two are compatible, but you're talking about a glorious past that simply never existed.

Let's not forget that the Byzantine Emperor's authoritarianism and misplaced zeal for religion has led to the death of several saints. Most notably, St Maximus the Confessor.

"Chistian" authoritarianism is high risk and high reward, it would seem. No matter how guided by the Church the state may be, we remain humans and so we will never fulfill the Kingdom of God with our own hands here and now. A "Christian" kingdom will inevitably do something very non-Christian, even while thinking that what it is doing is the will of God.

>>810864

>History has proved that authoritarianism is never good tho

If you get your information from exclusively liberal sources (e.g. everything taught in Western grade schools, colleges, and 99% of media, whether it be left or right-leaning, over the last few centuries), you might come to that conclusion. I'd encourage you to give this video a listen if you haven't already.

>>810873

The church is not the goverment. A good governor may be a bit authoritative, but the mission of the church is entirely different. Now "liberal" when it comes to religious issues has become a buzzword, they're many passages in the Bible that can be interpreted as liberal or fascistic, but both labels will be wrong.

>I'm concerned more with quarantining the sick firs

Wew. I'm always talking about the Orthodox perspective here. The mission of the church is to heal, the mission of the hierarchs is to carry the mission of the church. Nobody appointed us to be God's judgement on earth, our mission is different too. Baptists or other protestant groups may disagree but i only talk about the Orthodox view of things.

>>810878

I had to pause it when he draw hell fires over liberals lmao. I get my information from the Bible and the Church's fathers.

>>810897

>I get my information from the Bible and the Church's fathers.

Apparently you don't. The Church fathers reshaped the Roman empire in their image and convened Councils jointly with the Emperor.

>>810907

Irrelevant with what i said, the thread and Christianity in general. The Roman empire is no more and Christianity is not a political system.

>>810864

>History has proved that authoritarianism is never good tho

As opposed to great fruits of freedumz and utter degeneracy of our age.

>muh authoritarianisms never good

>>810848

>communists being high not relevant

>result of whitewashing the truth basically

>therefore truth is not relevant

>similar to americans 50s nostalgia

American nostalgia is an absolute cringefest as is russians being nostalgic after communism

>muh geopolitic power.

>Why in God's name would one praise the invasion?

The question is not why do it. The question is why would you go to jail for that. That is a difference brother. And you do not go to jail for praising communism that was far worse invasion - both carnal and spiritual - upon russian people.

Again we do have probably other priorities. What i dislike is somebody whitewashing history to show pointless nostalgia/in order to build false patriotism(see muh comrade stalin)

No thanks. I think the Truth is more important.

>>811725

>American nostalgia is an absolute cringefest as is russians being nostalgic after communism

>What i dislike is somebody whitewashing history to show pointless nostalgia/in order to build false patriotism(see muh comrade stalin)

And i agree

I'm not defending it, i'm just explaining why it makes sense for it to happen, historically.

>>810851

>>810864

>>810873

>>810874

>>810878

>>810897

>>810907

Ok, i touched some nerves with my original comments.

The point isn't that authoritarianism is 100% good or bad, it's that russians are susceptible to a retarded kind of authoritarianism, that results in a lot of problems within State and Church.

>>811725

I'm mostly talking about authoritarianism regarding the church and church's relation with an authoritarian goverment. Freedumz is from God, no human has the right to take that from us. Degeneracy, or as we Christians call it, sin, always existed and will always exist and no wordly goverment will be ever able to ban it, degeneracy was rampant in authoritative goverments as well.

>>811844

Either system is flawed as is the church on Earth because it is comprised of humans. A judge based system was used by the Israelites and it failed,

then a Kingdom was tried and it too failed. There are many ways to justify both stances but its fundamentally pointless because the only Kingdom that matters is that of Christ, and from what I can tell it's a Kingdom and a family. This is completely irrelevant to the conversation as it's more about the church structure than of a particular form of governance. Putin and the Russian State has done more than enough to be concerning, much like the Borgias in Rome or even the freemasons and various capitalists have done in America and the West more broadly. Clinging on to the notion that freedom has never been tried is a silly An-Cap delusion in the same exact vein as a Communist delusion. It has been tried and it spiralled into power-plays like EVERY human endeavor does.

>>811848

I agree, i don't really care about political systems, in some times and places a bit authoritarianism might be more suited than others idk. What i especially don't like about Russia is using the church for entirelly political matters and the church backing the goverment against the people while the goverment builds 43million mansions for the Patriarch. This has happened before in Russia and the results were davastating. The goverment might be authoritative but the church must NEVER concede to that, their mission is entirelly different.

>>810480

Russia is the only western nation in which Christianity is rising. Everywhere else it’s in decline. Worry about yourself.

>>812235

This will happen sooner or later. The biggest problem i see for achieving this is inter Ortho disunity which is in a bad state the last years. For example, imagine the screeching by some pharisaistic ultra Orthodox if union is to happen, a small brand new "Old Caledarism" movement is unavoidable.

>>812285

Is this satire? Russia might be more atheist than even France, except from Islam and Paganism that are indeed on the rise. And i blame 100% the actions of Russian church for this, Russians outside of Russia are usually very pious.

>>810480

it took not only the disaster of ww1, but also the germans sending in an infiltrator, the cuck-visional government giving said infiltrator weapons, and then the western world turning their back on the anti-infiltrator armies. could Russia be heading in such a direction now, not as long as Putin is the strong man. after him, the deluge, but in like manner, in the wake of a political crisis, the Church, having amassed so much power basically fills the vaccum.

>>812343

That uh, that's a very interesting approach to diplomacy…

>>810830

> the Father and the Son together produce the Holy Ghost

> produce

< G-guys, filioque is totally not arianism applied to the Holy Spirit

>>815735

https://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraErrGraecorum.htm

https://erickybarra.org/2018/02/11/does-the-filioque-subordinate-the-holy-spirit-to-creation/

>>815698

The infiltrator argument is kinda retarded. If it only takes ones random spy to turn to country into the first atheist state in world's history then something you're doing wrong. Let alone that Lenin is still worshiped in Russia together with Stalin and his body is mummified and kept in a literal mausoleum.

The problem is that the Russian church too much politics and no religion, just like in the time before the communist revolution.

>>815735

Go away, (((Jay))).

>>815749

>The problem is that the Russian church too much politics and no religion

Thats what happens when you subordinate your church to politics instead of having it be sovereign from politics.

>>824699

this. The reason america had separation of church was because of all the business we had with the "church" of england being political nonsense. They maybe prots, but even a broken clock is right twice a day

>>824845

They being our countries founders

>>824851

I'm new to Catholicism. But as someone who experienced nationalized schools, I can tell you nationalist and government mandate are not what they are cracked up to be

I want government to stay out of church because it corrupts. Its happening with the orthodox in Russia, since they foolishly mixed government with the Holy business of Christ. as a result it is nothing more than political rubbish. I've seen government wreck more things I care to count. I don't want it touching the church either. Otherwise it belongs to whoever controls the political system. The idea of someone like Francis controlling the whole system disturbs me. He would probably have us silenced for our refusal to support his "policies" and maybe ban what few TLM churches there are. My only king is Christ. It is him and no one else

>>824851

this meme template has yet to fail me.

Fun fact:

Many have called for the Patriarchs of Constantinople to move the seat away from Turkey to Mt Athos. Athos belongs to Constantinople anyway, so they believe that if the Patriarch moves the seat there he'll be able to move more freely, which is actually true. The Patriarchs doesn't want to move the seat for a number of reasons, some having to do with the history of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. But another one, one of the most important reasons, is that the Patriarch doesn't want to relate the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate solely with the state of Greece. Since the Patriarchs are Greek themselves, having the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate inside the borders of modern Greece, the Greek state will get a strong diplomatic tool, but the Ecumenical Patriarchate will inevitably become connected with the politics of the Greek state. So, Bartholomew prefers to live a humble life as a second class citizen in a semi-dictatorship and is criticized hardly by some people because of it, than to betray the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Being a priest/bishop/patriarch is carrying a Cross, not building imperial mansions and doing vacations around the world with your personal yatch. Russians cannot understand that and so they just want to become the Ecumenical Patriarch by force. Something that's failed in the past and will always fail. Just pray that this time they'll wake up before history repeats herself again.

Regarding the separation of church and state: while it's desirable to have the church influence the state, it is unacceptable for the state to influence the church.

>>825121

Vehementer Nos

On the French Law of Separation

Pope Pius X - 1906

3. That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error…Remove the agreement between Church and State, and the result will be that from these common matters will spring the seeds of disputes which will become acute on both sides; it will become more difficult to see where the truth lies, and great confusion is certain to arise. Finally, this thesis inflicts great injury on society itself…Hence the Roman Pontiffs have never ceased, as circumstances required, to refute and condemn the doctrine of the separation of Church and State.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10law.htm

Ok goys im gonna tell you something in case you havent noticed. What OP is doing is running a smear operation on the russian orthodox church. Hes probably a cia spook on assignment in christian online circles. The likes of him has been doing this for quite a while now. After the americans have made the coup in ukraine in 2014 they sought to separate ukraine from russia in all ways, not just geographicaly-politically but spiritually too. Since before the coup the churches and monasteries in ukraine have been under russian jurisdiction this was difficult to do, so the americans(purportedly) bribed the constantinople patriarch bartholomew with 2 million dollars to grant autocephaly to ukraine, mind you that is not independence but they are to be under his control. So he literally stole jurisdiction from russia and russia rightly excommunicated him. Bartholomew is an honorary first among equals , he has no power to grant(take) stuff that iw not his to give. And all the other orthodox churches are aware of the western meddling in orthodoxy and are supporting moscow. As for the anti russia shilling the cia spooks are scared that russian influence in spiritual matters will rise even in previously catholic and protestant circles as proven in these forums.

I don't think it's such an issue that this old building is being renovated, especially for a patriarch. The mansion was already church property to begin with, the Catholics can't judge since their Pope lives in a literal palace. Any gain that a Christian church can get is a good one in my view.