e5e1c2 No.800804[Last 50 Posts]
What does /christian/ think about the Qur'an?
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6d374b No.800806
>>800804
Well thought out fanfiction, but a terrible basis for religion.
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a934f7 No.800809
>>800804
The main protagonist is a bit of a sperglord lolicon that suddenly starts besieging Mecca.
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e69535 No.800810
A farrago of Gnostic (from their "gospels" ie the gospel of Thomas, and Docetism/Manichaeism, which states that Jesus wasn't crucified) Jewish ("""halal""" foods, circumcision) and Christian (Jesus is the Messiah, Mary is a virgin, they are the only sinless humans) theology, somehow the direct, perfect word of "God" yet somehow claims that the Trinity includes Mary and that Jews believe the Son of God is Ezra, and ultimately it did become its own religion.
https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/other-religions/islam/the-great-and-enduring-heresy-of-mohammed-by-hilaire-belloc/
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5c4ff3 No.800811
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5c4ff3 No.800812
>>800810
That sounds like a real dumpster fire.
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867109 No.800813
No different than the works of other heretics who broke from the Church. It's not a different religion, as usually said.. but a problem in our own house. Kind of like Mormonism is something we have to deal with more intimiately, unfortunately. Joseph Smith was just another Muhammad.
Some of the Quran is direct ripoffs of Syrian liturgical texts from the church. And Mecca's Kaaba used to house the icons of Jesus and Mary - not even Muhammad dared touch them (but a later Saudi did).
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9697db No.800814
They claim it's so perfect to no man could have written it and it was directly delivered from God ("Allah"), and yet, it's full of completely immoral, barbaric, violent, sexual immorality (rape), conversion by the Sword, asking to lie to promote Islam, anti-logos,…
It's just a christian heresy, it's a radical form of Protestantism, it's impossible than God could have written this and yet promote such evil behaviors, and lying and killing to promote the truth of God.
It's a pass for me.
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867109 No.800817
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>800814
Some of what it promotes was altered. Like the "72 virgins in heaven" meme. It was a copyist alteration, directly taking language from known Christian texts about "grapes" in heaven (not virgins.. but grapes.. meaning something more along the lines of verdant grounds and abundance).
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e69535 No.800820
>>800817
In Islam, Heaven is still explicitly sensual in nature.
https://quran.com/78/33
https://quran.com/55/54
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9697db No.800821
>>800817
>Like the "72 virgins in heaven" meme.
It just proofs that they are extremely sexually perverted and they doing all of this just for pussy. Deeply immoral religion.
No sex in heaven according to the bible.
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a3f9f7 No.800827
>>800804
>What does /christian/ think about the Qur'an?
Never read it. Obviously, it is been used as a political and warfare psychological tool, same as any other deemed holy books. I suspect the Christians, who bravely faced the lions for the crowds of Roman Empire, impressed upon some of those in attendance the power of belief. And if you look at how it is the pawns of the holy books who blow themselves to pieces, never the higher ranking clerics, I'd say this was a holy book that supplanted kings, just like the bible eventually supplanted the Roman Empire. There is also the generous inclusion of Christian figures so as to make for an easier transition. This book also created a second religion, Sikhism– Hindus who would not convert and particularly did not also want to die as well, created a religion to basically combat this religion. Only one religion shows the true way, that is obviously the one which shuns malice and expansion thru force or political trickery.
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d7834b No.800834
>>800827
Well, at least it was higher ranking clerics who died in the early Church. Up to the very top, with Peter being crucified, Bartholomew being skinned alive, Paul beheaded, and then further and further generations of Bishops like Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch, to the lowly soldiers like St George or women like Perpetua. No distinction between any of them.
>>800820
I stand corrected. But even then, perhaps some how those altered too. I would put forth that Islam started off as a weird Christian heresy (like Mormonism), but only later got taken over by the warlord culture of the East.
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d7834b No.800835
Duh. I should just mention that Jesus himself died. That makes it unequivocally different than what Islam became. Even Islam itself (like Gnostics) refuse to accept that Jesus even died. In their fleshly minds, it's too undignified a fate. So they lied about him living and tricking everyone. But Christianity is honest, and puts forth that there is victory even in our defeat and death. Starting with the Son of God himself. We are not to be "strong men". But "he who wishes to be great among you must be your servant." This is anathema to other religions.
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26c1be No.800836
>>800804
I've read it. It has a couple good lessons in it when it comes to relationships (like "if you and your wife are mad at each other, leave the house for a bit and never kick her out" things like that) but theology-wise, pretty poor.
Jesus is clearly the Son of God and they deny it.
Muhammad, their prophet, perpetuated his hoax and lived like a king, while the Apostles were witnesses to Christ's divinity and they were persecuted for it.
Literally no one is willing to die for a hoax they perpetuated. No one. Not one person.
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bb3b28 No.800839
I think the BO of /islam/ is melting down, seeing his community for what they are.
>>>/islam/36277
Do you think he could be converted?
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d7834b No.800842
>>800836
>Literally no one is willing to die for a hoax they perpetuated. No one. Not one person.
Indeed. Best proof of the Gospel really. Not the internal evidence, but the very lives of the Apostles themselves. No one went through what they did - even all of the toil and stress before they died - all for a hoax.
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26c1be No.800845
>>800839
Give him another year or two and maybe he might be open to it. In the mean time, pray for him and ask the Holy Family to pray for him as well.
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987490 No.800902
The way I see Muslims, they're 2/3 of the way there. They believe in a higher power that they must submit to - good. When they're not slaughtering people, they generally structure their societies in sensible ways that wouldn't be too far off from the Christian ideal - good. They even believe that Jesus Christ was a holy man that had valuable things to say - good.
The problem with them more comes from the philosophical and moral underpinnings of their teachings. Their religion is quite a hedonistic one, and relies a lot on violence. Without the violence, the allowance for polygamy sure would leave a lot of sexually frustrated young men about. But hey, at least it acknowledges a need to deal with those types, unlike liberal atheism.
As much as they are being used as a weapon against us, I just can't bring myself to see Muslims as an enemy right now. Because at least they are oriented towards the transcendent, at least they possess the ability to look to the future, beyond the here and now. At least they have a moral code they are willing to abide by and a vision for which they feel strongly enough about to sacrifice their lives for. The same cannot be said of the secular elite and their culture of death that they are trying to force everyone to comply with. I pray for their conversion; it's all I can do.
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2f5c90 No.800916
>>800804
The Qur'an itself? Alright book, very heretical, I think St. John of Damascus' rebuttal despite being the first one ever, exposed it pretty well for what it is.
It's very materialistic too, they only describe Hell and Heaven in very materialistic ways, Hell is just a never ending string of what you as a human would find torturing and painful while Heaven is the opposite.
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aa8d08 No.800917
>>800916
to be more specific, the Qur'an promises sexual pleasures in heaven as a reward, which is completely nonsensical.
if there is no more production of souls in the End, why would God allow sex in Heaven?
and many, many other logical inconsistencies with the qur'an as a new book of revelation after the OT and NT. the mecca is also particularly nonsensical, seeing as it was a pagan shrine and merely appropriated into being a literal cornerstone of the religion.
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2f5c90 No.800918
>>800804
Oh I gotta mention this too, there's a part I love, Muhammad (or Allah rather) literally, and I do mean literally, splits the moon in two when he's trying to convert a few people in Mecca. He just does it.
There's no comment beyond that really it's hilarious and it took entire centuries until some theologians even started to make up excuses for it being real.
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090c45 No.800919
>>800918
What's funny about that as well is the excuses prove the naysayers correct.
>>The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder. But if they see a Sign, they turn away, and say, "This is (but) transient magic.
>Some Muslim commentators, particularly from the Medieval period, interpret the event as a literal physical splitting of the Moon by Muhammad, while some others identify it as an event that will happen at judgment day.
>Others consider it to have been an optical illusion.
You know, transient magic.
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2f5c90 No.800921
>>800919
Like man, I respect plenty of Muslims, I'm actively friends with plenty, but you can just tell most of the practicing ones are in it because it's almost culturally ingrained for them.
I can only hope and pray for them.
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edfb7b No.801060
>>800902
>Because at least they are oriented towards the transcendent
Its my understanding that that's their problem though, they're oriented toward the transcendent only, where the only way to know their distant God is by following the law. Our God on the other hand is wholly immanent, personal, knowable as well as being wholly transcendent. Muslims outright reject this idea. I don't know a whole lot about Islamic theology though tbh.
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edfb7b No.801062
Also wtp is w/all the bracketed words and phrases in the text? I've always wondered
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f5f8b0 No.801067
>>800839
>Board about shitty """religion""" attracts shtty people
Oh wow, who would've thought.
That board was never relevant in the first place, so let them discuss their Koran and Hadith, for example, how water from well where shit, piss and menstrual clothes were thrown in is pure and clear. Thank you, Muhammad.
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082b5b No.801138
>>800804
It was written by some delusional man lost in the wilderness, claiming he'd been visited by angelic entities. Oh wait, that's also Mormonism…
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05fdcf No.801206
im almost finished reading it and i have to say im not a fan. its so repetitive and unclear. maybe its just because my translation could be better, but i definitely prefer the bible for its sheer variety (and content, obviously)
however i do appreciate that its much shorter and concise compared to the bible. i definitely see how it would have been easier to proselytize in a day and age where normal people didnt read as much as they do now.
but i just cant see how the imams have managed to make a complex religion out of such an indefensible foundation. theres nothing symbolic or allegorical to contemplate, just a rote narrative of the things mohammed did and the laws he made.
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cae8e2 No.801552
>>800842
Never even thought of it that way. Thats some good evidence to help people convert.
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c6d703 No.801576
>>801138
My personal theory is that he was visited by a demon in disguise
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b602ab No.801607
>>800842
>Doctor, the faker in room 47 died last night.
>Seriously, now he overplayed it!
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1df43c No.801614
Anyone with a cursory knowledge of non-Talmudic Judaism and Christianity must discard Islam's fundamental claims, being as they are 1) historically false (e.g., the Crucifixion), 2) internally inconsistent (e.g. the constant abrogations) and 3) intra-traditionally disharmonious (e.g., Gabriel is portrayed utterly dissimilarly to how he is in the prior two traditions). That last point is the real kicker, since Islam claims to be a fulfilment of both Judaism and Christianity, and, moreover, that its coming—the coming of Mohamed—was prophesied. Christianity easily follows from Judaism, as we can see via the prophets and key events. Indeed, some things are a little more subtle than expected—Christ's kingdom being otherworldly, for instance—but it all fits together logically and consistently. The same cannot be said for Islam. Its claims of foretelling fall apart, of course, and the Muslims claim this is because the Law and the Gospel—as they call them—were "corrupted." There is zero evidence for this, nor any surviving historical traces of any versions which do foretell Islam. Its primary claims are fanciful to say the least.
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dbb82d No.801650
>>801607
that's not the point. The point is nobody would SACRIFICE himself for false claims, not death of natural reasons.
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ecde14 No.801661
>>801650
So, explain all the Hindu and Buddhist martyrs. Not to mention the Muslim suicide attackers - willingly sacrificing themselves for false claims. People sacrifice themselves for all kinds of crazy ideologies.
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6638f7 No.801671
>>801661
None of them know it is a hoax. They sincerely believe the lies. If they knew their false religion was a hoax they wouldn't be willing to strap bombs to their chests.
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20e161 No.801688
>>800804
>God wants you to follow him by force
>Can't do it himself and has to get his cultists to do it
meme religion, only exists because they cut your head off if you try leave, and sin permeates the very nature of the religion
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40bbc8 No.801692
Buddhists are not martyrs. Devoted ones believe a cessation of desire is the path to Enlightenment (hence these type of people won't defend themselves, as that feeds desire). They're simply pacifist (or passive, if you will). And they're not dying for Buddha or any historical aspect of their religion. They don't even care to be known or remembered or that they were providing a "testimony" to anything. They just simply… die. And don't care who talks about it or not. So the idea of a "martyr" is ill defined. The original meaning of "martyr" is "witness". i.e. Christians were witnesses to the power of Christ and we were willing to die in public trial.
Back to Buddhists, the idea of cessation itself would be true to them, even if Buddha wasn't real. Their religion isn't really founded on historical veracity, but ideas. Think of it along the lines of a form of psychology or science. Some people would also cling to some intrinsic worth to psychology, even if Freud was a moron.
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90d741 No.801695
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>A religion so bad, it can only exist through censorship and suppression
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1fb227 No.801742
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29e477 No.812308
>>800804
>>800804
hyper-protestantism
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475b33 No.812330
>>800804
Clear as day that it was written by low iq, sexually decadent, blood thirsty men. This book has nothing on the Bible, the difference is night and day in quality, yet they claim it to be perfect (LOL) and still deny basic historical fact - that Jesus was crucified. That alone refutes this whole book.
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475b33 No.812332
>>800835
>Even Islam itself (like Gnostics) refuse to accept that Jesus even died. In their fleshly minds, it's too undignified a fate.
That's the other thing. Arab people have extreme pride. They will go out of their way and lie to maintain that pride, if you have ever been around Arabs (especially the older ones), you will notice this about them. They suffered from inferiority complex. This is why the Quran denies Jesus crucifixion, because a Arab could never stand having their prophet die a humiliating death like Jesus, so they instead lie and invent this idea that Jesus never died. But Christians are honest and don't deny this fact, that's just another reason to follow Christ, and not this man-made war ideology called Islam
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bb976e No.812660
>>800842
This isn't a very convincing argument. The only way you even know what their lives were like and what they did is from books that they wrote themselves.
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c6d703 No.812724
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ecb4b3 No.823310
>>800804
>What does /christian/ think about the Qur'an?
I don't think about the Quran
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bd2b04 No.823417
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d9d6d7 No.823501
even muslims know they are dealing with fan-fiction in the Quran, but they follow it out of spite and animosity towards jews, christians and God himself.
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48a014 No.823534
>>823504
Being eternally with our infinite creator would be far more liberating than being enslaved to muh dic.
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ce8c1f No.823546
>>823417
Good post
>>823501
Yeah this is definitely true to an extent. The vibe that you get like this is just like when a team your cheering for gets bad foul calls from the refs but you accept them because you want your team to win. You aren't interested in the foul call being bad, as long as it goes your way you let it go by. Mohammedans has this mentality a lot. No one cannot be deeply troubled when they find their religion says you can explicitly lie to your own friends in order to settle a dispute. You can literally swear a false oath to settle disputes amongst fellow Muslims, much less what you can do to the "enemy" and even lie to your wife to make her feel better. Many muslims have zero issues with the whole "scientific miracles in the Quran" being pushed even though many know they are very shaky at best. Because it is seen as a win for them if idiots get convinced they don't push back on it or promote it as well. It's really. They are really overcome with the spirit of deception for the most part.
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ce8c1f No.823547
>>823504
>>823534
Yes, for example in the Mystical City of God, it's said that looking at God is looking into the infinite. You can keep staring and there's just infinite going on there. Obviously this is a vision and we can't even comprehend it, but we do get the "beatific vision". Seeing God is seeing infinite goodness, there is no limit to the depth of this vision. There's nothing to be bored about and you are seeing constant unlimited goodness with no darkness at all. Not just banging sex slaves who becomes virgins again after you bang them, and then according to some accounts your orgasm lasts for 70 years and it's all just ridiculous. It's clearly nonsense for sex crazed base idiots who their only dream is just that. It's disgusting.
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376c7f No.823560
>>800804
I think God created Mormonism to not only make fun of prots, but muslims as well
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cc2c13 No.823577
>>823560
Top kek, but God didn't create that evil. He merely permitted it.
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59b33f No.823601
>>800836
What about Joseph Smith then?
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cc2c13 No.823604
>>823601
What about him? God made Smith sure, but God also made Stalin, Hitler, Luther, Pol Pot, Merkel, Muhammad, and other terrible people. That doesn't mean God made them do the terrible things they did. God permits evil in this fallen world, doesn't mean He authors it.
Read the Book of Job.
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59b33f No.823620
>>823604
No I'm referring to the claim that people who create hoaxes don't die for them. Joseph Smith endured some of the harshest persecution, tarring and feathering, multiple times in prison, being uprooted and driven from place to place, homes burned down, giving up his bed and going hungry for the good of the other Mormons, and was eventually murdered for his beliefs. And yet he just made it all up. By that argument, it means the Mormon church must be true. How do you explain that?
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da74ba No.823621
>>823620
sounds like people always misundertand this argument, but i'll have to repeat myself. This doesn't mean that it was necessarily true, but that he thought he was true, that he thought it was genuine. Same thing with the apostles. The apostle's persecution doesn't prove that Christ resurrected, but that they believe it was true.
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b5b7ec No.828026
>>800813
>And Mecca's Kaaba used to house the icons of Jesus and Mary - not even Muhammad dared touch them
I've never heard this take. I usually hear that it was just a pagan place of worship, and Muhammad tried to claim that actually Abraham built it and now Islam is returning the kaaba to its original monotheism.
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b5b7ec No.828027
Henri Lammens is an old Jesuit theologian who wrote some pretty interesting things about Islam. He moved to Lebanon and really studied Arabic and Islam.
> "Some Orientalists have alleged that it has been touched up in order to bring the language to the standard of perfection set by the pre-Islamic poets. In that case we must suppose that these purists in their revision have paid no attention to the extremely primitive rhymes of the most recent Suras and above all that they have passed over slight faults of grammar and style which it would have been so easy to rectify. (Qoran 20, 66: inna followed by a nominative; 49, 9, dual subject of a plural verb.) In 2, 106; 4, 40-41, the predicate is singular in the first clause of the sentence, and in the plural in the second although relating to the same grammatical subject. In 27, 61; 35, 25, passim, Allah speaks in the third person; then, without transition, in the first. Thus in 2, 172, the celebrated philologist Al-Mubarrad read al-barr instead of
al-birr, in order to avoid this singular construction: ‘piety is he who…’ In spite of all this there is no occasion for surprise in the fact that the Qoran, especially the Medinese Suras with their more polished phrases, less interspersed with ellipses and anacolutha than the pre-Hijran ones, has served as the standard for fixing the rules of national grammar…
> The editors of the ‘qirav’a mashhura’, or textus receptus, worked under the domination of a servile scrupulousness for tradition. Otherwise they would not have been able to resist the temptation to improve, by means of equivalents readily furnished by the lexicon, the poor rhymes terminating the verses. They would not have scattered broadcast through the collection, sometimes in the course of the same Sura, groups of verses which have a logical connection. They would have tried to delete or tone down the principal repetitions and tautologies which make its bulk unwieldy. Revision after the author's death would have modified the verses relating to Zainab (Qoran 33, 37), and brought into agreement the differing versions of the same prophetic legend. In the enumeration of the prophets it would have separated and distinguished between those of the Old and those of the New Testament, and such a re-editing would have brought consistency into the story of Abraham's relations with Ishmael and Isaac, which are completely dissimilar as related in the Mekkan or the Medinese Suras. In deciding what order to assign to the Suras a critical revision would at least have adopted some criticism less primitive than that of length. Above all, it would have cut out the most glaring anachronisms: the confusion between the two Marys (19, 22), between Haman, minister of King Ahasuerus, and the minister of Moses' Pharaoh (Qoran 28, 5-7, 38; 40, 38); the fusion into one of the legends of Gideon, Saul, David and Goliath (2, 250, etc.); the story of the Samaritan (sic)who is alleged to have made the Jews worship the golden calf (20, 87, etc.). The Qoranic Vulgate has respected all this, and left everything exactly as the editors found it."
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9048bf No.828031
The Koran is a heretical book compiled by various medieval muslims around 200 years after the death of the "prophet" of islam (who was probably named mohammed post-facto), the source of it are various oral traditions that arose following the conquest of the fertile crescent by the Arabs who at the time were similarly to the Germanics of the 4th centuries, pagan heretics or rarely catholics.
I believe that it was written to unify the various heretical sects and thought into one magnum opus, and therein lie the contradictions within it.
I also believe that the religion of the Koran is different from Islamic orthodoxy. Koran claims that Paul Johan and Peter were disciples of Christ, yet Islamic Orthodoxy says Paul corrupted the message of Christianity.
see also: wikiislam.net
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b5b7ec No.828032
>>828031
>I also believe that the religion of the Koran is different from Islamic orthodoxy.
The Quran is inconsistent and vague and Muslim exegetes do a bad job at interpreting, especially its verses on Christianity.
Basically, the Quran almost never attacks orthodox Christianity. It's always some weird heretical understanding of the trinity that any orthodox Christian would denounce. Muslims are just too proud to admit it and say something like "Well, winnie the pooh you, what else is it supposed to be referring to. Enjoy hell, kaffir" when confronted with evidence that the trinity doesn't consist of Mary, Jesus, and God, and that the Quran never even uses the word trinity.
A good vid on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRRCJOP7f0s
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498465 No.828034
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