/agdg/ - Amateur Game Development General

How much and how to pay depends on how much work you have and what kind of quality you can afford. It's a normal practice to pay only when the work is done, but it's usually done through some kind of middleman like a freelancer website, that will play the role of a work contract on the internet. Don't expect people to work without seeing a single penny for longer than a month though, be realistic. Split the project into smaller parts if you need, but you can't expect someone to stay loyal over the course of whole project. Obviously, if someone doesn't like how much you pay or how you treat them, they are free to quit.

Expected rates vary greatly, especially on the internet. Indian code monkeys will probably do your work for less than $5/hour, but a seasoned veteran from a civilized country for a full-time worker can easily ask for $10,000/month.

>How do I protect myself from outright fraud?

Test what they've written? They send you a program, you run it and see if it works as intended? Test more, get more people to test it with you, etc. This is probably the best and the only way you can protect yourself without diving into subject.

Code correctness beyond "it mostly works" is a non-trivial task. There is no magic wand that will tell you that code has no bugs, if there was one, then software wouldn't have bugs in the first place. Rigorous testing means well designed architecture, code peer review, well-written unit tests, static analysis and continuous integration. Mediocre programmer can do that for you as a one man's band, but expect that it'll take much more time and you still can't check if he's doing it right if you're not familiar with the subject.

You probably want to find someone passionate about your idea and have a few compromises with them, maybe butcher some parts of your idea so it will suit you both. This will guarantee you best kind of loyalty and that other person will give their's best while working on the project.

>hiring a programmer

Might as well give up now unless you have bags of money to spend.

>>26426

10k should be enough for you to get a programmer for like, 3 months maybe?

A decent one I mean.

>>26427

Or you could hire a cheap fuck like me for 6 months on that budget.

>>26431

What engine do you want your game on?

Might as well learn to code and spend those shekels on something else.

>>26431

It sounds like you're really committed to this, I hope you get what you want out of it. I'd help you myself but my experience is mostly the engine-dev wankery I do for fun.

"Naming variables" would probably only help if you mean constructing solid models of the gameplay systems and their points of interaction and describing some key variables in that context. If you know any coding at all, a quick mock-up in a simple engine could do wonders to accelerate your timeline I'd imagine.

If you don't mind, please stop posting your meme images.

I noticed an anon had tried to get in contact with me earlier; looks like he deleted his post though. To respond to his posts post-humously:

I'm sorry man, for the lead (and probably only) programmer I'm likely going to have to find a local person to do this for the most part. However, depending on your experience I'm considering offering payment for estimates, consultations and second opinions on how things are done so if you want to post your email again I'll contact you.

>>26431

knowing how to properly manage programers is a field of study on it's own.

just learn to program to the point where you can prototype games on your own.

and don't spend money chasing a game idea. even if you know what you're doing, chances are you're not going to get your money back, you're just buying a very expensive lesson in entrepreneurship

>>26451

>I noticed an anon had tried to get in contact with me earlier; looks like he deleted his post though. To respond to his posts post-humously:

That would be me, I deleted it because I also saw your post on tech and you described the game as multiplayer. And I have no experience with multiplayer games, only singleplayer ones so it would had been a bit useless to leave my message on.

Anyway anon, don't give up. Just be sure to have a very solid idea of what your game is before you work on it, I made some of my own mistakes when I was working on my game and I wasn't 100% clear about everything in it, that wasted time.

>>26431

Having an idea of the relative priority of features would be nice. Often you need to make tradeoffs, and if he gets hit by a stray train you'd at least have the more important stuff done. Having an idea of what the basis for the game really is (minecraft would sort of suck without destructible terrain) and how mutable elements of your design is would probably also do a lot of good, because games tend to change a lot from alpha to release, the first version is always shit, so having an idea of what needs to be highly tweakable will save a bunch of time on rewriting.

>>26465

> You are an honest guy; what was that email again 'agdg_guy@' something? I have something to ask you anyway.

It was agdg_guy@forward.cat ,it will forward a message to my real email, which I won't post because spambots.

why is everyone on /agdg/ expect getting paid ? I thought this board is meant for amateurs... maybe start with small freeware game first ?

>>26665

A lot of people have bland ideas or just don't wanna work on the game at all, and they expect others to work for it, for free. And let's be honest, a lot of people also have their own game that they are working on, so they simply don't have time.

I would only work for free if your game would look really interesting to me, and you and I would put a lot of effort into it. Otherwise I am busy working on my own game. Just so you know we're talking about actually working on a game part time, not just helping occasionally someone when they have some problems with it, because we do help in these threads when we can.

>>26665

Because OP was talking about paying someone.

The other option is to find someone who wants roughly the same and compromise about design, style, mechanics etc. People are more loyal when they feel like they 'own' part of the project.

>>26665

>why is everyone on /agdg/ expect getting paid ?

Personally I expect to pay someone (and well) because I want quality work done in a timely manner. I also don't want to share ownership of the result. I'd rather just pay someone to do what I can't and succeed or (more likely) fail spectacularly on my own merit doing what I can

>I thought this board is meant for amateurs

I worked as an animator pro-bono for a game project that quickly got out of control and fell through. I became disenfranchised with the idea of working on someone else's behalf for free. I know that there have been a handful of successful titles released under such an arrangement but I simply don't want to leave mine up to chance.

While I will be deferring to an expert to realize many of the technical aspects of it, the end result will still largely be the sweat and vision of a layman.

+1 bamp for quality thread OP.

You'll probably want to start out trying to attract motivated 'volunteers' by writing a solid Game Design Document. Getting that put in place as a initial effort it will evolve as you go along trust me will serve everyone's interests--your's included.

bomp

>>26429

>>26427

The question is whether you are getting a good programmer or not. Cheaper is not always better.

>>26465

Thank you for sharing, that image was fairly motivational.

I've actually thought about this a lot and I've mostly decided to split the project up into chunks if I start paying devs to work on it.

The biggest thing I'd do is section off parts that I couldn't do by myself. Like for instance

>Please code in the inventory system I have in mind

>Please fix collision.

shit like that. I wouldn't just hire a programmer to just work at his leisure on anything. I'd mostly just use him to fill in the gaps of stuff I can't/don't feel like doing myself.

>>26452

>knowing how to properly manage programers is a field of study on it's own.

This is so true, my sister got a Master's degree in Technology Management. It's an MBA focused on tech exclusively. The problem with programmers is that we're so (over)valuable to the technology industry that there's always work available, and thus little reason to have strong work ethic.

>>28243

>and thus little reason to have strong work ethic.

I doubt this is true and I'd find it hard to believe there's research suggesting it is

if you're depending on a bad job market to keep employees interested you've fucked up before even needing a tech specific manager.

there's a lot of nuance to dealing with programmers, not to mention all the other crap it takes to keep a team of white collar workers focused and productive.

even if you're contracting the work out, the end product still has huge variance in how well you communicate the design you want, how you divide/distribute work, keeping multiple freelancers in sync, etc.

communication being the big one, imagine trying to explain the design of pac-man to someone who's never played the game before. chances are your description would result in 10 different games from 10 different programmers.

how to write proper design specifications is also it's own course load you could spend hours learning. a few tutorials should come up once you google it

>>28240

if your determined to spend money on production at least put some effort into market research. it's a deep topic but at least figure out what people find fun about the game before going all in on something that could miss the mark.

If you're in the balkans, im an american living abroad and I'd be fine working locally on this thing part/full time, especially if you're having trouble finding someone to handle the network stack. While I could work on whatever, you're better off listening to >>28240 and partitioning the project into separable pieces. Ie the network code, the graphics/viewport, the game engine/game logic (as an amateur dev a game engine might well be overkill) etc.

>>26420

What kind of artist are you? If you can do 3d and texturing, I'm willing to work for you for extremely cheap so long as I get a share of the ownership over the project and the profits related to it afterwards. I'm doing gamedev shit on my own right now, and I really really hate forcing myself to do 3d work.

If you're a pixel artist though, you should look into getting a bank loan. Your art is one that most people can do reasonably well, even if you're extremely talented at what you do.

>>28465

just make something within your current ability and set a 1~3 month deadline for it.

everybody on this board seems dead set on making their masterpiece off the bat and then giving up in a few weeks. it's like watching people trying to lift 200lb on their first time at the gym.

project completion is it's own skill and needs practice like everything else.

>>28632

You've got it backwards, when you're taking a risky gamble, you reduce the risk, not increase your bet. If I remember the statistics correctly more than half of competitive inde games make basically zero off the venture, and even established mobile devs are happy if even a fraction of their projects make a profit.

The business community has already figured this out; take more small bets and fail in ways you can afford. You're even in an advantageous position as a dev that focuses on art, it is a lot easier to find people who enjoy your visual design than getting them to try out new mechanics.

The majority of people decide if they want to try a game based on a handful of screenshots and maybe a few seconds of video, all of which you can mock up without making any actual game play. If done right, you can get people exited about a game with just marketing, look at no man's sky or any other hyped up project. Instead it sounds like you're planning on emptying your pockets for one big reveal which isn't that different than going all in on a crap shoot.

>>28634

>You've got it backwards, when you're taking a risky gamble, you reduce the risk, not increase your bet.

I don't disagree, but from what I understand after having solicited /tech/ even a very rudimentary project would probably cost enough-or nearly enough-to wipe out my budget and I don't get do-overs with the small amount of money I've spent a lifetime to accrue. I have a very limited, finite amount of money for conscripting outside help but I'm able to work for myself as much or as little as I want so I have to consider that. I see the risk and the expense as constants with my own effort or lack thereof being a closely related variable.

In the end as much as I hate going around in circles I guess getting third party software and doing everything myself as some have suggested really might be the only sensible option at my pay grade. The only thing that's kept me from even entertaining the idea of using Construct 2, Game Maker Studio, Build Box or something like that thus far has been the fear that my retarded ass will find using these complex-looking programs just as impossible as actually programming. However at least with that there's basically no risk other than a one-time payment, and the opportunity to hire someone if I do fall flat on my face will still be readily available.

>The majority of people decide if they want to try a game based on a handful of screenshots and maybe a few seconds of video, all of which you can mock up without making any actual game play. If done right, you can get people exited about a game with just marketing,

Totally true, luckily we live at a time where "crowdfunding" is a thing which ideally can help mitigate any financial risk on my part, it's also a good litmus test for whether the game should even be made to begin with. These days if people aren't willing to come out of pocket to help its development along it might be a good sign the game won't have much mass appeal on the outside either, at least I would imagine.

>>28638

huh, that's an unexpectedly agreeable response, guess I should be more specific in what I think you should be doing. without getting into too much of the theory:

Draw up a few pages of what you want the game to look like, including UI and character designs. people should be imagine themselves playing with just these. come up with a ~3 sentence pitch and try it out on people, if it doesn't get them interested change the pitch or your game until it does.

Start up a dev blog and start sharing it. Somewhere on the site add a button to sign up for some kind of news letter of some sort. Should be able to use the email list you get to gauge how successful a Kickstarter campaign would be.

Never mind, there are too many details to write, and I'm getting lazy, but it's a rough idea. you actually have a fair amount of reading to do if you want a decent chance of making a product from scratch and selling it for a profit.

Point is, there are ways to both make a game you are sure at least some people will enjoy, and estimate how much money it will make you, before you put in significant investment yourself. But selling your game also means you're becoming an entrepreneur and business owner along with being a game dev, meaning you'll either need a partner or the grit to learn both disciplines.

>>28660

After doing a little research it looks like Construct 3 will be releasing in a month or so, so I might have to check that out.

https://www.construct3.com/

>>28663

No real reason for a beginner to use the latest tech, a helpful community and well documented features are going to be more important. Also the few hundred dollar price difference shouldn't be enough to sway you one way or the other. Make a quick game in both to them out and just pick what you're more comfortable with.

>>29790

If you're going to go the crowdfunding route, make sure you have a playable demo of your game before you start. Your demo should have enough release quality artwork and polish to give an impression of what the final product would feel like.

http://www.whatgamesare.com/vertical-slice.html

The nature of game development means that it's possible that certain design features you intend for the game may actually turn out to be bad for gameplay. This implies that you would have to change of the game mechanics and thus this would change the feel of the game. As much as you can, you don't want to deviate very much from what you promise in your campaign.

A different strategy you can take is to mature your game in your own time. You start your crowdfunding campaign when your game is developed to beta level and you don't need much more time to get it to release level. The purpose of doing it this way is to show to your audience that gambling their money into your game is low risk because you're already got something good and what you need is a bit of help to push it over the line.

Justin Ma talks about the development of FTL, this might be useful for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ebemSIWP0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42rqT_htY7o

>>29794

Thanks for the videos, I'm definitely going to want to check those out. Not only for the content itself but they remind me of the fact that there's a huge legitimate indie game and media community out there and that it'd probably pay to get involved with them to some degree from the beginning.

As far as a demo goes, I don't think that's in the cards yet. I don't have the money to pay for a programmer (part of what the campaign is meant to address) and I'm far too busy working on animations and trying to figure that whole process out. I could have several proposed in-game animations and pieces of splash art ready to give people an idea of what to expect and what their money is helping work towards though and I believe that will be sufficient.

I'm a big fan of physical media as rewards and would like to frame my Patreon as a sort of slow-rolling kickstarter. Do you know of any good companies offhand that make limited run games, music CDs, print books etc.? Part of the dream is reliving that feeling of opening the box and seeing that instruction manual with all of the cool character art and story blurbs and having something I made on my shelf. Is it possible or even desirable to contact a mainstream publisher about this sort of thing? Where do I go or who do I talk to to get a real game made?

In any case, I would like to be able to keep close track of who's given what and I'm not sure how that's done. I've heard a lot of horror stories of hit-and-run patrons who "donate" in whatever amount, take all the content available to them and bail before they actually have to pay (well, not so much a horror story but one of a minor inconvenience, I guess). Say I send out art books or something like that to Patrons who've given $100 or more over time (after taxes and Patreon's fee that'd be about $70 in my pocket I believe). I imagine printing a book is hugely expensive (wouldn't be surprised if it cost at least $20 for an art book with 50 pages or so and that's not including at least $5 for shipping) and the last thing I want to do is give something like that away to a mooch that looks like he's been supporting me for months but really hasn't supported me worth dick, you know?

I appreciate your insight.

>>26420

The answer you're looking for is: don't hire, get hired.