No.641
I wish I knew how to think for myself. I've heard people promoting the trivium and the quadrivium, but where does self-regulation of physical and mental processes come into that?
I'm also hesitant to commit to any path without fully understanding the implications. eg: Gnostics believing in the demiurge. Perhaps it's true, but I'm not going to subscribe to the belief just because I might have a grudge against reality. I need a stronger base than that fallible feelings.
I doubt even the Discordians are entirely formless. At the very least they must have a system based on "maybe yes, maybe no".
I mean, there are plenty of people who build misguided foundations off of religion or whatever neurosis they have, but I want more.
Even the people who promote the trivium and quadrivium seem to be fallible nuts. I don't know. Maybe it's because they're trying to build up cults. Maybe they have better odds of getting those niche conspiracy buffs than trying to compete with the big boys for the Plebeians. Whatever.
I've got some patience to hear out crazy people, but my patience has a limit. I'm also seldom inspired by what anyone has to say any more. It's not interesting. I'm tired of people making claims that they expect me to believe. "Buy my book! Take my word for its value!" No.
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No.643
I am not sure I understand your request perfectly.
Are you looking for a personal philosophy to help you decide how you understand reality? Are you just looking for a moral code that has a factual basis?
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No.647
Study and read as much as you can, many different philosophies, sciences, fields that you may think are uninteresting or unimportant can teach you an entirely new perspective on something else, study the history of ideas, trace its developments through time and the political/cultural/religious influences affecting the ideas...
Study language, origin of words, using emotional language, learn another language, because sometimes if you think of the same thing in two languages you can get a different perspective.
Read everything in a critical manner, not passive accepting the authors authority, trust your perceptions over someone’s interpretation of them.
Learn about yourself, you need to be as objective as possible about yourself and about others to really see things without your pre-conceived ideas clouding your judgement.
Learning new skills, dancing, drawing, martial arts, language etc etc can change your brain and make it a lot easier to learn and understand other unrelated things.
Lots of Russian research shows that new environments, new smells, sights, sounds can trigger changes in your brain. The more new situations you place yourself in, the better, like with exercise, you're forcing your brain to adapt and change, looking for solutions.
Make sure your diet is adequate in protein as it can affect thinking and memory.
Don't commit to any path then, create your own. You're equipped with the same tools of perception as anyone else, you just need to exercise them, and your understanding will expand.
(if i didn't understand your question correctly, I apologise, just got up...)
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No.648
>>647Not quite.
All that is for the "initiate", in a sense, but what makes an initiate? Most institutions do not take just anyone into their ranks without at least some preliminary shaping. I'm being metaphorical, since I'm not looking to join any institution. I want to be my own institution.
What do you do when you are leading yourself? The blind leading the blind. Worse than that, you have to deal with your shadow, your ego, all that garbage which sometimes is working against your best interests.
... Ah, that's what I interpreted the 5 as in my picture: the senses. 5 senses, the trivium, and the quadrivium. But that still implies a belief in the body as the basis, and I don't know enough to commit to that way. I mean the trivium and quadrivium are psychological, but I would think the senses come first. Perhaps there's no implied superiority or supremacy. Perhaps there is no way to simultaneously work in a balance from the start (again, assuming that were a belief you committed to).
Also, it's interesting how that Jan Irvin guy who promotes the system, who stresses the importance of placing grammar, logic, and rhetoric in the proper order, else it is vulnerable to exploitation from others, fails to place the 5 senses before the trivium, and uses his system to attack others in conflicts that seem misguided.
Still... Even remembering my interpretation, "5 senses" doesn't help much. What is the process for proper education of the 5 senses? I would guess it would include body awareness, starting with the breath, eventually covering all bodily processes. Perhaps it's covered in some Hindu stuff, since that's where a lot of the Oriental practices came from. I wonder if there are practices which are somehow inherently tied to one belief system or another.
A side note: it's interesting that the Seele members clearly have cut off some of the senses. Their monoliths show a message on the front: "sound only", and I think at one point it's implied that they have given up their mortal bodies to have their brains encased in the monoliths.
I've also been wondering about the implication of the squaring of these basic elements. Perhaps it's the combining of disciplines. though why would it only be in pairs, or is that just a basis for total integration?
>Read everything in a critical manner, not passive accepting the authors authority, trust your perceptions over someone’s interpretation of them. I think that's glossing over the reality of a human with their own hang-ups in the way of the learning process. Most people have learned to repress the urge to question and to express that question, and must spend time and energy unraveling that tangled twine. Who's going to consistently question rather than just when they don't understand something? Who's going to ask more than one question of "is it true?" and ask things like what the author's intent is, who they portray themselves as, who they frame the reader as, what implications are in their statements and questions, on and on.
I say these things only because I have heard others talk of it. In practice I don't question enough.
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No.663
Empty your mind and slowly feel the difference between your body and the air around you. Take the time to realize your perceptions are all inside you, a separate thing from the transduced experiences and the interactions of the world that caused those experiences to be transduced.
You're your body, your history and your possible future. You're the memory other people have you. What group or vocabulary or language can't change that, the unbroken path you've had between birth and death.
Everything else is just fucking marketing. Maybe well natured marketing, but marketing none the less.
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No.664
>>648>"5 senses" doesn't help much. What is the process for proper education of the 5 senses? It's worth noting there are seven senses. Sight, smell, taste, touch, hearing, balance (vestibular sense), and proprioception (motor-parietal sense).
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No.665
>>664The difference being that touch is sensation felt through the nerves of the skin, which activate depending on temperature or pressure.
Balance is the sense of the body's sense of gravitational directionality and momentum, felt through the fluids of the inner ear.
Proprioception (motor-parietal sense) is the most complex, and is a gestalt sense of the body in relation to itself cohered from the relative tenseness of muscles among other things.
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No.674
>>663That's kind of a fast-track there. How does the pre-initiate arrive at this point where he's interested enough to undertake all that? Where's the gateway?
>feel the difference between your body and the air around youThat is way too complicated. I can't feel the air. I can only feel the effects of the air on my skin.
>You're your body, your history and your possible future.Speaking of fast-tracking, I've already read and had a sense that that's an illusion.
>You're the memory other people have you.That's a strange thing to say. Isn't that my memetic offspring? The only thing you carry as a reflection of others is their social expectations of you, but those are models. "The map is not the territory."
>>664That's ... strange. I remembered thinking there were 7 but I don't remember why. All I remember is thinking about extra-sensory perception, in case perhaps the 5,4,3 in OP image were showing that religion is a tool to ensnare like a net the weak-minded, and that more was required to be outside of it. but perhaps I was just doing concept association with the grids and YHWH/religion and the trivium being used to manipulate people.
I wonder if I should dive down the rabbit hole before I liberate myself from the illusion. Jumping straight to the end seems to be too difficult.
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No.679
I'm still lost. I know there's more, but I can't find it. Maybe I'm too messed up to fix myself.
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No.681
>>679>Maybe I'm too messed up to fix myself.Fix yourself how? You're not a machine. If you're in a poor circumstance, you might as well vent about it here where you won't be prejudged for being too extreme or whatever the shaming justification would be in face to face sociality.
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No.685
>>665Balance also includes neural processing of nervous input from the muscles. I'm not a neuroscientist, but I know it's more than just inner-ear fluids, as losing the pinky toe can alter your sense of balance. The networks responsible for balance processing are probably intertwined with proprioception, as rapidly changing the body's orientation probably also alters the sense of balance.
I also thought there was some research on "precognition" as a natural sense, in that humans and other species have evolved to process information faster than we "think" and suggest a actual likely outcome.
I feel like I'm not bringing much to the table, except that the reminder that disorientation is one of the most effective ways to "control" someone.
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No.686
I should have added a response to OP in my previous thread.
My college course in Existentialism drastically changed how I see the world and my place in it. There are religious and atheist existentialists and both provide what I think is a good way of "founding" yourself in the "reality" of human society.
Look into Martin Heidegger, Søren Kierkegaard and Jean-Paul Sartre.
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No.688
I'm surprised there's no threads on this forum about where you stand psychologically. I still see a lot of posts that are mired in old ideology, and wonder what is the point of such amateurs trying to grasp the complicated subject of psychopolitics. I suspect it's really a much more simple matter of people having the fundamentals down (which probably consists more of early training than formal education), and then having the autonomy to go study for themselves subjects of psychology, sociology, politics, and history; and then coming to their own conclusions. I doubt any such discussions among such people would be in a place like this. We're all ignorant fools of various levels who are at best recombining concepts we've regurgitated up from the few crumbs we've gathered elsewhere.
I wonder if anyone can truly think for themselves, or if even the tools of thought must be given to you. The people who are unburdened by restrictive thought may be vastly more prone to inspiration to a degree that gives them all the possible tools they could need. though it wasn't sufficient for them to discover that metal doesn't grow and transform like plants. I believe even Isaac Newton believed in such superstitious alchemy.
Ah well. We're already in the muck of it. No reason to bother thinking of a utopian mental state when we're not done un-learning all the bad things.
I suspect a good analytical mind is mostly a myriad of questions that are habituated so that they can all be pursued simultaneously. Then instead of simple answers of "[person X] is [wrong/right]" you get an instant sensation of the situation that merges with your other sensations of related situations. Gnosis VS wisdom. God, I've wasted my life.
>>681There's the environment we carry with us as well, and how does the mind which inflicts it's condition upon itself find the means to change it's infliction?
>You're not a machine.I may not know with any certainty how predictable it is, but I also don't know what gives it autonomy or spontaneity.
>>685>disorientation is one of the most effective ways to "control" someone.I find certainty distasteful, but I have yet to develop a proper system of nuanced possibilities. I may speak in uncertain terms, but I'm still full of the dogma of extremes.
>>686as an armchair philosopher, I find it difficult to find the interest to read them rather than to read ABOUT them. I tried to read Plato, and it seemed pretty stupid. Every time I read ABOUT philosophers, they sound stupid, believing in one simplistic thing or another.
>"founding" yourself in the "reality" of human society.Why would I want to set my foundation on an artificial abstraction like that? I need more solid ground than that. I was born with that lesson. Why would I throw it away?
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No.689
>>688>Gnosis VS wisdom.Though what I described is just a more complex structure of words. Maybe true gnosis involves experience of the ... Platonic Forms? Was that the concept I was thinking of?
I wonder if a lot of the religious attempts to reach those Platonic Forms aren't just as misguided, attempting to find holy words that somehow unlock the path, or enough "different angles/methods" with the same goal to somehow properly understand it. There's talk in the Eastern traditions where understanding breaks down all distinctions and sees past the illusions. Perhaps that's the only truth. but then how do you lead your life based on that? "Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water." Ah well. Perhaps it's more of a process. "Before I had studied Ch'an for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers." When you return from the journey, you bring something back with you. You never "arrive", you just work to keep bringing back more.
... says the man who has never been there, and only heard others talk of it.
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No.697
>>688>I'm surprised there's no threads on this forum about where you stand psychologically.Do you mean self-assessment? Although I personally engage in it and find it very constructive, I would advice against posting such conclusions online. If you mean something different, please explain.
>what is the point of such amateurs trying to grasp the complicated subject of psychopolitics.I hope you don't mean that this board is pointless or useless. I recognize that most of us are likely amateurs with no formal training, that most of our hypothesis cannot be tested, and that even if we are right there is very little we can do, but I must state my faith in the potential of the discussion happening here to teach, inspire, and make aware.
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No.698
>>686HEIDEGGER IS NOT AN EXISTENTIALIST HOLY FUCK
Convenient misreadings attempt to neuter his philosophy.
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No.770
Hmm, its simple, I don't mske a foundation for myself, I merely appear to exist and have a strong distrust in all experience. I'm OK with knowing I can't truly know since I'm not an absolutist. It helps that I see things that are not there -- waking dreams just after, during, and just before sleep paralysis.
Even now, close your eyes and you will never see pure blackness, not even in the most pitch of darkness. Faint shapes, waves and patterns caused by extraineous retinal AND visual cortex neurons firings prove experience need be taken with a grain of salt.
As far as we can tell empty space devoid of all matter is an energetic quantim foam that makes up 90% of reality. The laws of physics are entropy filters that cause certain chaotic configurations of energy to become (temporarily) stable or self reinforcing patterns as does every other structural system appear to from vision to the chemistry of life and even logical systems like science. These all accept chaos and filter structure from it. Artificial and natural structures are self descriptive systems which, over time, aggregate better information about propagation in the universe. If you do not accept that some things which are experienced have a basis in some form of reality, be it observed, extra-dimensional, or simulated, then you can not come to grips with the fact of existence. Once you accept that Something exists, you can work your way to better describing the universe that you arbitrarily delineate as yourself, as all reality appears to do. Having an open mind to new and better information while existing in an imperfect chaotic state seems writ into the fabric of the universe.
Trust no absolutism, and merely use the current flawed understanding to achieve and adopt a clearer understanding then pass it on to the future. This is what life is and does, and thus is the meaning of life, the universe and everything by definition.
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No.772
Why are you asking us?
Do you really want to think for yourself?
What is the self?
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No.1615
Please help me. I have nowhere to go.
>>772
>Why are you asking us?
Because manipulation requires some understanding of how people function.
>Do you really want to think for yourself?
I imagine anyone who wants to think for themself already does. It's just something that happens. I'm not content with just what happens, because it hasn't happened for me. or at least not enough. Being a contrarian doesn't constitute independent thought; it's still reactionary.
>What is the self?
I don't know. Some people think it's just what you do, how you act, what you think, what you believe. Others think it's none of those things, and is just pure consciousness.
Maybe if I could just find a way to get myself to meditate regularly, all my problems would be solved. I've heard you shouldn't meditate if you don't feel like it, but there's got to be some way to get yourself to want to.
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No.1616
The answer to the question you're asking is inseparable from the answer to the core questions 'what is reality', 'how do you win this game?', 'where does success lie?' etc.
You could just set a standard like efficacy in the manipulation of matter/circumstance, and then chart a route to that efficacy within a field of your interest. Heuristics and ways of seeing conducive to that can be figured out.
But there's no guarantee that's the right approach to this game. That there isn't some greater rule-set or track you follow to get to the place of answers.
You can know for sure that your assumption of something 'more' (not defined purely as a standard of efficacy in some field, hence your confusion) will be seen by many as a resource they can use to lead you down paths beneficial to their interests for as long as they can keep you hooked.
I would personally advise that I've found most by fostering my dissatisfaction and internal antagonism of perspective. Make your hunger big and keep your instincts honed, and listened to, and you'll be less likely to fall for some dead end designed for searchers like you.
I know some stuff that hasn't been made public about cognitive setups. Yours is based in Searching. Hone your searching and its dissatisfaction and use it as an engine, a perpetual void, instead of as a gullible seeking for others to take a hold of you by. Be ruthless in pursuing your highest standards and aesthetic and modes of preferred cognition.
That's just what I've found takes beyond the most bullshit and towards the most certainty though.
On Irving/Trivium: it has some value but he overplays it. It codifies some processes that you do need to master, and sharpening your thought on the stone of the classics is beneficial. But independent cognitive character and energy is more important and is what drove geniuses, very few of whom saw the Trivium as all THAT important. It's more important in terms of how its presence or absence up-regulates or down-regulates the degree of education of the common, dependent man.
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No.1617
>>1616
>You could just set a standard like efficacy in the manipulation of matter/circumstance, and then chart a route to that efficacy within a field of your interest. Heuristics and ways of seeing conducive to that can be figured out.
That'd be something. I have no idea how you do any of that. Right now all I want is better health, before I end up killing myself. but even that's probably too advanced for me right now.
>fostering my dissatisfaction
I don't know. I'm worried I'm already under too much pressure and that I can't take much more. I already fostered apathy which didn't stay contained to my intended target. I'm worried that dissatisfaction might push my self-hatred too far. I feel like I'm down to basics of control, and maybe love is the only way out, but I don't know how to make that. I'm also just guessing, because I don't understand the whole situation.
I don't think falling for charlatans is that big a problem for me. I'm too high-maintenance.
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No.1618
>>1617
I'm using dissatisfaction in a technical sense, very distinct from sheer stress.
It's the absence and sense of more which gets you asking the questions. It's the atmosphere you breathe and the medium of your thoughts.
I'm telling you to take the basic, which motivates you, and found yourself in it and ways of weaponising it to reach the greatest efficacy. Instead of seeking a form to fill that void which you'll try to use as a kind of stable life-raft to throw in with.
I'm working off the probably correct assumption that you have a very particular kind of neural setup.
Health, sure. But having that as an issue to work on doesn't stop you searching into particular topics and testing the answers you produce to them. Keeping a mind concerned with things other than just health should probably be considered an aspect of health. I've been mired in health problems, like you have. At some point you need to keep the best-bet solutions running below the radar, not as a conscious obsession.
That's especially true given that your mind seems mercurial and active and unlikely to be a good foundation for a stable solution.
My solution isn't really a solution, either. It's just a basic cognitive starting point to developing paths through life.
Finally: you may think you won't be taken in. But that doesn't mean you'll have the correct setup and drive to reach the objects of attention and mode of consideration where reality comes into clear view. You could be unaffiliated and still have your mind filled with dumb stuff and dumb polarities you compare to one another and see as the landscape of possibility and relevance.
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No.1622
>>1618
>I'm using dissatisfaction in a technical sense, very distinct from sheer stress.
>I'm telling you to take the basic, which motivates you, and found yourself in it and ways of weaponising it to reach the greatest efficacy.
I don't know how to do that. I'm not sure I can do anything with dissatisfaction that's not bundled with negative things like stress and hatred.
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No.1630
>>1622
Maybe you need a therapist more than you need this board.
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No.1631
>>1630
hasn't worked so far.
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No.1690
I recommend 'Mere Christianity' and 'The Abolition of Man' by C.S. Lewis
I had come to consider Christianity as well meaning but intellectually baseless and hollow until I read C.S. Lewis
He is one of the clearest writers I have ever come across and has greatly influenced my thinking on the matter
His take on Christianity is positive and action oriented, focused almost entirely on self improvement and the search for beauty - and, of course, love
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