No.2578
http://www.explore-ideas.com/story.php?i=5097
https://freech.net/fam/res/33544.html
I would use dishonest tactics such as changing IDs to pretend that more posters agree with me than is the case, emotional arguments, ridicule, violence (as a last resort) etc in a desperate attempt to change their diseased minds. This is OK because they don't believe in logic anyway so I can't argue with them logically.
X-Posted from https://www.anontalk.eu/topic/75
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No.2579
Though I agree it's incredibly annoying, is this belief really widespread enough to be considered a problem?
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No.2590
Obtaining the absolute truth and whether or not there is one are two different things. Usually people will argue for the first trying to prove the second.
For most people it is an easy way to avoid heated discussions because of the narcissistic blow of losing one, along with all the repercussions that would have on their identity.
It is also another way to escape the cognitive dissonance and keep following the herd off the cliff.
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No.2606
>>2579
What about all the 'meme magic' stuff?
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No.2628
>>2590
>It is also another way to escape the cognitive dissonance
this
Some lies have been repeated so many times for so long, people literally cannot handle the truth.
The fact that their entire life was based on a sham would melt their brain.
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No.2661
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No.2669
A related issue: people thinking truth matters less than consensus
https://desustorage.org/r9k/thread/26418037/
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No.2670
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No.2673
At this point, truth is easy to perceive as subjective. So much information is widely available, to the point of being nigh impossible to sift through all of it, and so much is hidden from the public view, that multiple simultaneous truths can seem to exist. Especially when one realizes that many of these "truths" aren't entirely wrong, or at least aren't easily disproved, the problem becomes apparent.
For fear of having been rambling, a summary and finishing statement:
Belief in subjective truth seems to be a symptom of the modern information overload and, as an above poster mentioned, cognitive dissonance (which may be on the rise itself due to said information overload).
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No.2711
Why do the people in this thread act like the people who don't believe in objective truth are idiots?
I don't believe in objective truth because even mathematical systems can't be both consistent and complete:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/
If objective truth doesn't exist even in the abstract and pristine world of mathematics, what makes you all so certain it exists in our crazy and uncertain world? On top of that, how can we be certain that our notoriously unreliable brains would ever be able to distinguish the truth from a feeling of confidence?
It's certainly not an easy or obvious debate.
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No.2712
>>2711
So the argument is that, we have no way to actually determine what is true since any method you might care to try at some point has to feed back to a consciousness via a brain. If the brain is unreliable and cannot determine truth, then all we have to go on is a level of confidence. So, for our purposes objective truth may as well not exist, it has no bearing on reality as interpreted by our brains (this is the leftist root ideology).
Yet, this does not imply that there is not an objective truth out there, just that we are poorly equipped to find it. What we do have going for us, are the processes of natural selection. The assumption is, the more in line with reality an organism is, the better its chances of survival (and therefore reproduction). For instance, if you have a mutation where an animal is born without a digestive tract, this is not compatible with the real world and the mutation will be quickly annihilated. Still, natural selection is itself a search algorithm and therefore will try it regardless just in case it's not necessary.
The same applies to us. Natural selection dictates that we either stick as hard as we can to external reality or we die. But we do not have a complete model of reality, so we're stuck doing a local search. That means some mutations may not be beneficial, but they need to be tried to be sure. Our problem is that we are not like non-humans, our brains are plastic and we have the capacity to rush through ideological mutations beyond what natural selection can keep up with, permitting us to temporarily hold ideas that are well out of line with any objective truth. Over time under normal circumstances these ideas will be forcibly obliterated, but we're now in the dangerous situation where it has become possible to forcibly prop up false models, perhaps permanently.
We are pushed by natural selection to attempt to model the real world, both via body and mind (i.e. determine objective truth), but we're too plastic and therefore erratic in our search to the point of being capable of generating wildly innacurate models. This however does not mean that either there is no objective truth or that there is no perfect model, just that we are well off from that right now.
I don't think I properly articulated any of this, hopefully someone understands it at least partially.
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No.2714
>>2712
Interesting. Has objective truth been defined? is it supposed to be a subjectless 'desert of the real' type thing, or like the hermetic 'All' that contains everything?
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No.2715
>>2711
>I don't believe in objective truth because even mathematical systems can't be both consistent and complete: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/
How does that imply there is no objective truth?
It implies that the statement 'mathematical systems can't be both consistent and complete' is objectivly true.
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No.2716
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No.2721
>>2716
what do you mean by objective truth?
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No.2722
>>2715
How about this:
"The only objective truth in the universe is that there is no objective truth in the universe, aside from this statement."
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No.2768
>>2722
"I know that I know nothing."
If nothing is something I know;
therefore,
I know something.
Just Thought I'd add something I Thought of from the best of My Knowledge.
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No.2772
>>2768
>"I know that I know nothing."
A contradiction and therefore false in a literal sense. Did you mean something else?
>If nothing is something I know;
No, it isnt. You're playing with words.
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No.2773
>>2721
A proposition or propositions that accurately describe reality.
Note that a proposition is not merely a statement but it's full meaming.
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No.2774
>>2773
When you say accurately describe reality, do you mean without a human perception of it?
Is there a proposition you have as example?
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No.2783
>>2711
>If objective truth doesn't exist even in the abstract and pristine world of mathematics
Gödel's theory doesn't imply that. It just says not all truths can be proven.
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No.2784
>>2774
>When you say accurately describe reality, do you mean without a human perception of it?
I mean accurately describing actual reality not the human perception of it.
>Is there a proposition you have as example?
Consider <The Earth is completely flat> and <The Earth is not completely flat>.
One of those is objectively true.
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No.2785
>>2784
it could be said a model of reality split from perception is not whole, like how colour can be detected by its frequency with scientific instruments and no need of sight, yet with cognition it expands to be felt and form associations in the mind.
An objective reality of the world and objective truth may be quite separate and one not require the other. Although it can't be argued that the earth is completely flat, you won't get people arguing that it should be flattened to make it that way, but you do get scientists wondering if they can make blue a 'hot' colour and red a 'cold' one, which is the root of relativism.
Sorry if this doesn't follow the line of thought you put out, it's like there are different languages to discuss the same concept. In my case it's a quasi-religious one where objective truth is a transcendent concept concerning people, not the world they inhabit but how they inhabit it. Sort of like deism.
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No.3451
>Why do some people think truth is subjective and relative and what can we do about it?
It is called solipsism. It is an ideology promoted by satanists and free masons.
A population that does not believe that objective, eternal, absolute and immutable truth exists, or which does not believe it can be known, can be made to believe anything.
This is one of the meta-memes, used to make the population (of human cattle) easier to control. It reduces or eliminates resistance to other methods of manipulation.
It is a method that has been in use since Plato.
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No.3459
>>2716
>>2721
>what do you mean
truth is only for the strong who take it upon themselves to answer their own questions, or at least to try and follow through, before asking anyone else anything
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No.3464
>Why do some people think truth is subjective and relative
because they lack the intelligence, will, and strength necessary to compare all things to all other things at all times and thereby create a coherent model that is not static but living and changing constantly
but people who believe in objectivity are often of this same sort, because their objectivity is actually based on subjective concepts handed down from an authority
basically they all are just lazy, bad people who fall back on patterns of compulsive behavior like putting a stopper in a hole in the hull of a ship so they can get back to port, but they never actually fix the hull and just set sail again. they are energy storage devices. they are food for something greater that doesn't seem to have come to earth yet.
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No.3466
>>3464
>Why do some guys think beard fullness is subjective and relative
because they lack the hair growth, coverage, and bushiness necessary to compare all beards to all other beards at all times and thereby create a coherent model that is not static but living and changing constantly
but people who believe in objectivity are often of this same sort, because their objectivity is actually based on subjective grooming concepts handed down from an authority
basically they all are just lazy, bad people who fall back on patterns of compulsive behavior like letting water through a hole in the hull of a ship so they can have a swim, but they can never actually create a pool and so just punch holes in the hull again.
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No.3467
>>3459
truth is gotten from removing delusion. This means removing all foreign interfaces in your consciousness, allowing direct access to your senses, isolating genetic will from the influences of foreign wills by constructing interfaces to keep them out.
Everyone has their will constrained by something. It's about retreating to the part of your consciousness that is not restrained and learning the patterns of freedom within this space so they can be applied elsewhere (meditation/honesty)
most people are not willing to do this it all, and even fewer are willing to learn and/or invent the necessary language to address these things with other people. This is because the basic education they receive trains them to abhor such things. This is the fundamental basis of servitude (self hatred).
They will come up with any number of excuses but still maintain the delusion that they both know what free will is and that they have attained it.
>I DO WHAT I WANT SO I'M FREE LOL
this is basic zen stuff, it's really too bad that people are caught up in ego because this is really low hanging fruit that can provide a lot of freedom and it's really impossible to argue with beyond
>YOU TALK LIKE A FAGGGGG LOL
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No.3469
>>3467
So truth is the absence of foreign interference/invention? Couldn't that be taken as a solipCIStic statement or a questionable attitude, that of 'truth is what I want it to be?
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No.3471
>>3469
are your genetics a function of what want them to be or how you feel at the moment? to what extent is your psyche?
Where does purpose come from? Why do people live like they do? What is the goal or direction?
It's a function of will. Where does will come from? What is it? It's obviously not just conscious desire.
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No.3472
>>3471
I have no idea where will comes from, just that it gets sapped out.
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No.3473
>>3472
will is a part of a human being.
where do human beings come from?
what made humans different than other animals?
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No.3474
>>3473
There's a lot of stories of where people come from.
Humans have more mentality than animals of course. Or is the answer 'will' again?
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No.3475
>>3474
Why continue the conversation if you don't want to elaborate?
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No.3480
>>3475
It's on the guy asking rhetorical-style questions to elaborate on the answers.
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No.3481
>>3480
>it's on you to entertain me
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No.3483
>>3481
Didn't realise you were being entertaining, I thought you were being informative.
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No.3658
because truth is defined by experience which can be compromised and reconfigured by hallucinations, dream states, the phenomenon of consciousness is unexplained, there's no satisfactory answer.
>>2768
>>2772
truth, the magical label, exists only in the parameters of our species and its ever-expanding index of languages. it's paraded by our government, and our sciences. yet, there have to external (and internal), communicative patterns which may overrule the truths that we perceive to be as such. as this has always been the case as history progressed.
"god exists", this statement can be taken in many ways, for what is god? definitions are loose, you may not interpret my explanation as i intend regardless of how concise i am. connotations aren't typically exacted between parties, picture related. abstraction is often antithetical, it wanders from the literary as it questions the component-ideas of systems deemed logical, perhaps this is lateral thinking.
that is to say, an objective truth is not obtainable to us, but we like to think we have. although, there is the idea of consensus reality, which is perhaps the subjectivity of humanity, the state of our worldly affairs. which to reiterate, other worlds (which we know not of), and their truths, dominate our truths.
i don't think a ministry of truth, the idea of objective truth being established by anyone, is beneficial. it's a very robotic desire, honestly.
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