/v/ - Video Games

>>16853608

ニンジンはおいしいですね

>>16853626

中国語はキモイよ

>>16853608

Holy crap, so many aras.

>>16853626

<this shit again

石室诗士施氏，嗜狮，誓食十狮。

氏时时适市视狮。

十时，适十狮适市。

是时，适施氏适市。

氏视是十狮，恃矢势，使是十狮逝世。

氏拾是十狮尸，适石室。

石室湿，氏使侍拭石室。

石室拭，氏始试食是十狮。

食时，始识是十狮尸，实十石狮尸。

试释是事。

Shí shì shī shì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī.

Shì shí shí shì shì shì shī.

Shí shí, shì shí shī shì shì.

Shì shí, shì Shī Shì shì shì.

Shì shì shì shí shī, shì shǐ shì, shǐ shì shí shī shì shì.

Shì shí shì shí shī shī, shì shí shì.

Shí shì shī, Shì shǐ shì shì shí shì.

Shí shì shì, Shì shǐ shì shí shì shí shī.

Shí shí, shǐ shí shì shí shī shī, shí shí shí shī shī.

Shì shì shì shì.

In a stone den, a poet called Shi Shi, who was a lion addict, and had resolved to eat ten lions.

He often went to the market to look for lions.

At ten o’clock, ten lions had just arrived at the market.

At that time, Shi had just arrived at the market.

He saw those ten lions, and using his trusty arrows, caused the ten lions to die.

He brought the corpses of the ten lions to the stone den.

The stone den was damp. He asked his servants to wipe it.

After the stone den was wiped, he tried to eat those ten lions.

When he ate, he realized that these ten lions were in fact ten stone lion corpses.

<chinese

>>16853688

レッディト行間すごい

>>16853723

ッ

>>16853626

>>16853640

>>16853688

Reminder that Chinese is a writing system, not a single unified language.

When people say "Chinese" they're usually referring to Mandarin, but there are a bunch of other languages that fall under the umbrella like Cantonese, Jin, Wu, Gan, Xiang, Min, Hakka, Yue, Ping, and Hui.

>>16853759

And none of them are relevant to this thread.

>>16853723

its a shit site, my post in the last thread was fine but copied with different formatting

>>16853608

Is it wrong to want to learn the spoken language before kana? It seems like it would be easier to learn kana if I had words to associate with it first, then start trying to read children's books once I have hiragana down

>>16854270

Yes. Kana is effortless to learn.

Is there a list of hiragana manga and ones with furigana for noobs?

>>16854276

You don't want hiragana only. That stuff is only useful if you already know how to speak the language and are just starting to learn to read it. If you don't already speak it it's harder than kanji.

>>16854308

Check your katakana list again for タ (ta) and イ (i)

>>16854312

Thank you! I think the reason I couldn't find those is they don't look exactly the same in typed form as they do on that first page. Fuck this is going to be hard but I really want to learn

>>16854322

Sadly this is going to happen a lot, it's like how English has a lot of fonts that can be hard for new readers to decipher.

As a good example, the third letter is a stylized katakana ロ (ro), even though it looks closer to a hiragana れ or わ. One last hint if you want it, the bolded letters are all katakana (and spell out a name) while the rest are hiragana.

>>16854384

I think I've found an easier way to go about this. I'm going to start with some stories that have been typed out so that I can copy/paste to find each character. Then I'm going to write each character a few dozen times in a notepad with the correct stroke order to make sure it sticks on my head. Here's the stories I'm going to start with: http://life.ou.edu/stories/

There's no way in hell I would have figured out that the third character was ロ if you hadn't told mel

>>16854384

>the third letter is a stylized katakana ロ (ro)

what the fuck

>>16854871

The sentence seems like nonesense to start with. Why is head the subject of to eat, and what is cat even doing in that sentence? You can't just stick a noun on the end with no particle even implied.

>>16854950

>You can't just stick a noun on the end with no particle even implied.

Yeah you can.

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/clause#Using_relative_verb_clauses_as_adjectives

>>16854959

If you attach 猫 to たべる to make an adjective (probably something like cat-eating?) you no longer have a proper verb for 魚を to work with.

>>16854964

Ok I'm wrong there. The whole thing has me confused but I'm still certain something about that sentence is just malformed.

>>16854969

It's not a sentence; it's just a noun phrase, of which 猫 is the head.

>>16854988

So in other words it's incomplete as is and that's why the whole thing doesn't make sense? Not that they don't use incomplete sentences regularly, but they usually have the expectation that such statements can be misinterpreted by default and only do so when the intended meaning should be clear.

>>16854999

Not exactly. The first three aren't incomplete, they just aren't representations of a sentence, but a noun phrase.

Respectively, they mean

>The cat whose head is red that eats fish

>The cat that eats fish whose heads are red

>The cat whose head eats fish that are red

The last two are sentences but the trees are wrong because they don't account for the (implied) copula, see >>16855006

Respectively, they mean

> The head is a cat that eats a red fish

> The head is a cat whose head is red that eats fish

You might expect to see a sentence like this in a description of a yokai or mythical creature, for example.

>>16855035

I know the stroke order, but the way that kana is written looks like only 2 strokes. The part that should be the third stroke is fully connected to the second in exactly the wrong way. If there were some break where they at least picked up the pencil it would be easier to recognize. The fact that all the other kana are accurate but only that one is completely wrong in almost every way also adds to the issue.

>>16854276

All kids/shounen/shoujo manga has furigana.

And what the other anon said about hiragna only text is absolutely true. Hiragana only text is a fucking nightmare.

>>16855090

ヴィーナスたんヤリマンだったっけ？

>>16855152

I'll let you be the judge.

https://exhentai.org/g/1387352/97c4e4ef93/

I've heard learning to speak Japanese is ten times easier to learn then learning how to actually read or write it. This bullshit and greatly exaggerated or partially true?

>>>16855395

maybe if you're learning by immersion, but otherwise it's a lot harder to find speaking practice than writing practice. I find it a lot easier to read and write, and it's hard to make much progress on speaking specifically.

>>16855395

Maybe if you live in Japan and speak with Japanese people every day. I can read it but have zero experience speaking it so for me it's the opposite.

>>16855395

My wild-ass guess is that people say that because they look at the literally thousands of kanji and sorta nope out. I have trouble with things that are similar but subtly different, so I struggle with a lot of them myself. Back when I was still learning didactically, that was my biggest sticking point. I didn't get all that far, so as far as speaking the biggest problem I remember having was remembering how to count, say, people versus plates of food or balls or whatever.

>>16855098

Yeah, you're not reading actual words but the pronunciations of words. My bad. I'm now beginning to learn the language but building vocabulary and grammar at the same time feels arduous. Writing down the kanji repeatedly per-word is also time consuming compared to the easier kana. I doubt radicals aren't going to help me at this early stage. It feels like the material won't stick unless I find some way to get immersed or be efficient but maybe I'm just trying to learn this stuff too quickly. In the meantime, will slow down and do some reading.

>>16855395

It's true of any language. The only reason you find English and other languages easier to write is that they contain phonograms (i.e. the words are related to how you say them) and not logograms (i.e Chinese and Kanji where the written word denotes a concept and you have to learn how to say it elsewhere). Your cultural background, unless you're already Asian, is that words should tell you how to say them and you can infer the meaning from context or breaking down the word. When you speak you don't have to give a shit about this. Furthermore, spoken language has an advantage that literally no written language has: tone and body language. You can infer massive amounts of information about a word from, per say, the act of someone saying it with disdain and an angry face. You would be surprised how far you could get if someone just plopped you down in the middle of another country and you could only gesture.

>>16855395

It's quite the opposite, really. Conversational Japanese isn't even comprehensible without having kana to kanji conversion software installed in your brain that automatically sorts for the most valid looking combination out of a dozen potential matches based on context. And when you have a brain fart or just too low IQ to do that? Well, nips will physically destroy the composition of kanji in terms of radicals to clarify what they mean, or even draw the kanji in the air with their fingers. So yeah, if you don't know kanji, you sure as hell are not gonna understand a shitty fucking language full of dozens of homophones that requires kanji to differentiate everything.

>>16855767

**describe, not destroy

Can you useless fucks talk about Japanese video games?

>>16855767

>decomposing kanji

That reminds me of how overjoyed I was to learn the word くノ一. There's something delightful about breaking down a kanji and pronouncing its elements to make a whole new word.

>>16855767

Are you saying that Japanese children have to learn to read before they can talk, or even understand conversation? That's ridiculous. Your assertion implies that Japan should have always had a higher literacy rate than rate of people who can speak or understand speech.

>>16857413

who plays nato? how do they play serbroaches being bombed back to the stone age?

>>16856098

Not much to talk about, last jap only release I gave a fuck was quite some time ago.

Installed some eroge, but didn't get around to play them yet.

>>16859032

I barely even play non-eroge ever since I could handle Japanese. At this point it's almost surreal when there's settings like slums or onsen and there's no fucking going on. Anytime I do them, it's hard not to think of all the lost potential for what could have made for good H-scenes.

>>16861866

あらあら、stop posting images like this, I don't want to buy a switch.

んー何？！

Persona 4 golden saves data to the the game cartridge itself, my jap version has saves with multiple ng+ runs.

>>16862015

Yuzu is coming along quickly. Maybe it will be usable by next year.

>>16862005

>At this point it's almost surreal when there's settings like slums or onsen and there's no fucking going on.

Hah you must've been into some degenerate shit like rape gangbang.

Also this isn't exactly on-topic but where is one supposed to grab a copy of TA since hongfire is ripperoni? The source is on github but I got no clue how to compile.

>>16862124

>>16861866

I know just enough to understand some parts of the sentences but not enough to know what is going on. I am not sure if am happy for what I can tell or disjointed in that I still can't really follow what is happening.

How hard are the harvest moon/SoS games for future reference?

>>16862219

Is that Translation Aggregator? I've never used any text-hooking software so I can't give detailed help but you could check the DJT guide site in the OP because they probably have something although I wouldn't really think they'd have information on setting it up with translation software since it's not the best crutch to lean on too much.

>>16862219

I can't believe Hongfire is fucking dead. If you go look over in /hgg/, the eragames thread has an active link to TA packaged with the last version of ATLAS that works. Google and I think bing no longer play nice with TA, though.

What was the "honorific" you put after someone's name when you were utterly hostile to them?

>>16863899

奴?

or none at all.

>>16863928

どもめ

「この外人どもめっ、死ね」みたいな使い方があるぞ。

>>16863936

Using first name can be seen as an insult, so you can do that too.

>>16863936

ども is a plural suffix so you wouldn't put it after someone's name. め is the insulting suffix.

>>16864023

ども is also used as a pejorative singular suffix you wannabe know-it-all bitch.

>decide to try the classic movies from itazuraneko in the OP

>download one

>it's dubbed over by what sounds like russian

>dub appears to be on the video file itself

>try another one

>more russian

What the fuck? Are all of these filled with Russian or am I just retarded?

>>16865042

Could be. I've never used the links in the OP, I just transfer them over. I'll take suggestions if any links should be removed for the next thread.

Does anyone have any suggestions for contemporary things to listen to? What I would really like is not something that I'm actually interested in - that way, I don't really care if I miss things or not and I don't wind up constantly rewinding. Japanese TV would be nice, even if it's run-of-the-mill sitcoms or soap operas.

>>16865042

The Mega links Basic Kanji and grammar books are down. Somebody needs to reupload and update those links.

>>16868302

>What I would really like is not something that I'm actually interested in - that way, I don't really care if I miss things or not and I don't wind up constantly rewinding.

Or you could just watch something you are interested in and watch it again later when you have more knowledge.

I remember watching Azumanga Daioh unsubbed back when I could hardly understand anything, but I just kept watching anyway. Then I watched it again a few months later and could understand more. And then again even later and understood it almost fully.

Better to do that than watch some boring soap opera imo.

>>16868306

Does anyone know exactly what books were even in those links?

>>16868302

You could try a variety of live streams. Can't (conveniently) rewind even if you wanted to and you can find them centering around a variety of topics. Bonus, they're not scripted for the most part so you're getting real-deal natural Japanese. Something not necessarily internet-based I listen to occasionally is anime internet radio shows. I'm not the type that especially cares about seiyuu, but it's still somewhat interesting to hear them talk about some things and I'm always keen on listening to girls with cute voices. Better than some lame nobody's podcast. Not sure how common it is for series to do such radio shows though. Just google a title and ラジオ and if it exists it'll probably come up.

>>16868311

When it's something you care about to a certain extent it can be hard to bring yourself to turn a blind eye to bits and pieces of it. It can seriously foul the experience knowing you're missing out on the full thing. I wouldn't recommend he dredge through something he's completely disinterested in, but it's a good idea to find something that you can still enjoy but also aren't especially passionate about to read or listen to sometimes to take it easy.

>>16868505

>It can seriously foul the experience knowing you're missing out on the full thing.

I mean I wouldn't recommend watching something you have never seen before for practice, I'm just talking about rewatching something you like. I stopped watching new anime for like a year or two after ditching subs, until my listening skills were good enough to enjoy them fully.

>>16868606

One thing to watch out for when rewatching something is that you really have to pay attention to what is being said, and not what you remember them saying.

>>16868606

I wouldn't go that far in avoiding new stuff, but it's certainly not a bad idea for beginners to get started. Even then however I wouldn't want to miss out since my goal with a lot of revisits to series I read in English is to get the authentic experience, without translation mishaps and such. I do sometimes re-watch something in Japanese again as well mostly for enjoyment with the side benefit of taking it easy with some natural review, but I'd still never forgo looking everything up to fully enjoy something that first time around in Japanese. For somebody with that compulsion to, as best as possible, fully understand stuff they're quite interested in, watching multiple times in Japanese probably isn't the most ideal as far as study goes, as they've hopefully squeezed most of what they could learn out of it the first time and could learn more from all-new material. Still it never hurts to go back to things you read early on into learning the language as you probably misunderstood some things along the way.

On the topic of VTubers that was mentioned in the last thread, could someone tell me, who has been apparently living under a rock for his whole life, what is this craze about this ASMR thing that everyone seems doing? Or is it just an another reincarnation of the fidget spinner?

>>16869316

ASMR has been around a lot longer than vtubers. I don't understand it myself either.

>>16869326

She's great you dumb slut.

>>16869316

>>16869323

ASMR channels are just some con artists trying to make easy money by spamming videos consisting of soft noises and whispering because triggers some weird tingly sensation and/or goosebumps in the back of your head/neck. It's as good as placebo.

>>16869326

It's a spoof, you doofus.

>>16869329

puking anime girl.jpg

>>16869316

It's a comfy sensation. There are also gamergirl bathwater tier retards that spend lodsemone on girls they like, which probably explains why it's so popular.

>>16869330

>It's as good as placebo.

A placebo for what?

>>16869519

This feels like a rhythm heaven song

press a to ガタンゴトン

>>16869421

ASMR is supposedly this "pleasurable, tingly sensation" in the back of your neck. ASMR videos supposedly help trigger said "sensation". However, it's complete bullshit not backed by science; a complete waste of time.

If you're watching for other reasons, then whatever.

>>16869535

>you know that thing you're feeling?

>you're actually just imagining that you're feeling it

>this is exactly the same as feeling it except it lets me yell about placebos for no discernible reason

変わった趣味だな

>>16869558

There are folks who can generate that feeling without ASMR, though. It's probably a skill that can be learned via biofeedback, or just a mechanical skill like crossing your eyes. So the audio might not be strictly necessary.

>>16869326

She is bilingual.

>>16869316

It's a fucking freak show that's what it is. It's the opposite of those idiots who have self diagnosed "misophonia".

>>16869317

oh c'mon anon, some of this are very useful for non english speakers

Any anons here interested in taking over a project on /a/nimu?

>>>/a/950526

>>16870973

A Japanese learning thread isn't necessarily the best place to look for a good translator. You'll be trading one bad translation for another in all likelihood. It's not a gathering of anons all competent in Japanese after all.

>>16871451

I've had similar doubts along the way. Just about everybody does I'd imagine. But I'd recommend trying out some things before going so far as to drop the language totally. You might just be burned out on the actual study component. Try taking it easy with media for a little bit, completely forgoing actual effort towards learning anything and just read/watch entirely for enjoyment as best as you can. Don't bother with a dictionary or anything if you're not feeling it, just go off context or ignore stuff you don't understand. If modern games don't excite you, then stay in the past and enjoy some video game history: PC98, SNES, whatever floats your boat. While you're at it check out some new, different things. Consider trying to learn about something that interests you using Japanese. Watch some shows about cooking, fishing, gardening or something. Perhaps it's less about the language and a waning interest in Japanese things itself and more a side-effect of your current psychological state. If you are in a bit of a depressive funk, try typical get well stuff. Eat healthy, exercise, get a good amount of sleep. If that is the case, a simple blogpost to vent and get things off your chest might be just what you needed to get started back on track, so don't worry about it.

>>16871497

>get a good amount of sleep

Wish I could do that. On the other hand, I'm getting used to existing in a constant half-dead state, and I have a little bit more time to spend on things that actually interests me.

Sorry for the spam

>>16871451

Why does it have to be a modern game? Just find some old games.

>>16871904

そうよ、ＰＣ９８とかは翻訳の無いゲームがいっぱいあるんじゃないか

最近のゲームは気に入らないならこういう作のほうがマシかも

でもなんだか落ち込みそうだから本当の原意はゲームや日本語じゃない気がするね

>>16871407

Some people frequent these threads because they are fairly advanced themselves and want to help others. It's not all beginners either. No I'm not claiming to be one of them.

>>16873044

Official / professional translation isn't necessarily better either though.

In utopia, there would be a browser plugin that detects images and displays the corresponding typeset translation as an overlay layer over the raw pages and everyone would be able to TLC it and apply fixes to it.

Hell, even displaying the script on the side would be good enough.

>>16873216

Screen OCR like Capture2Text exists. It's not perfect, but it's something.

>>16873262

I'm not talking about OCR. Instead, I'm thinking of image detection (hink reverse image search) + fetching corresponding HUMAN translation for said image from a database somewhere.

>>16882163

I think it's 洵 where the water has been simplified into a line, but I'm not sure.

>>16882173

Thanks.

>>16882173

Feels good to be a total amateur at this and yet still be able to make an educated guess at the right answer.

>>16882163

What a coincidence, I was just playing the demo myself. Just entered the waterfall cave.

>>16882180

They're called 略字, by the way. The image was named as such but it didn't go through.

>>16882200

That it is. Personally the only ones I've ever even seen from the image I posted were 2, 11 (I think), 12 and 13. I've seen one or two other phonetic type shorthands where they replaced radical/s with a single kana onyomi as well but I can't think of what they were. Also seen one character that had just removed whatever the left-side radical was, using the rest of the character. The image isn't meant to be comprehensive.

>>16882187

This, though it sucks always having to second-guess myself. That's why I stick to manga and games. Read the context through visuals and such. By the way, I take it with this corona quarantine/lockdown business some of us are using our newfound free time on this?

Previous thread some anon recommended Atelier, and I've been playing with Marie for some time, but those minigames are driving me nuts (especially the 時の石版 one, I don't know how it's possible to clear that without atrocious amounts of save scumming). How are the later games in this regard? Because if they continue to do this, I'm going to drop this series now.

>>16885964

The Russians are as bad as any eastern European at never letting go. They're like the Greeks and the Turks, or all the little Slav ministates, or the mess around Jerusalem and Gaza, or any other perpetual Middle East or Euro-conflict you care to choose.

>>16886431

Is the simulation aspect of Shinigami Brothel good? There really aren't enough simulation H games.

And yeah Dungeon Town was really good. I have 86 hours clocked after beating the main story, and I still haven't cleared that massive post-game dungeon and the EX story that comes after.

>>16886532

Unfortunately no, that's probably where it disappoints most. All you really do is place your buildings, hire a few random employees, and select a few things from your book of recipes to sell. Other than that you just wait around for any events to pop up. My セーブ全体 time there is a bit inflated because I played the first day of the game in super-speed because it was bugged and clocked a few hours in like 15 minutes, but my save file time is mostly accurate because I restarted after that. Didn't 100% the game or anything, but I probably saw most of what there was to see. My clear time for Dungeon Town including the EX content was 75:35, again not quite 100%, so as you can imagine it's not like the time discrepancy for 死神娼館 was a result of me being a super slow reader or anything. If you do decide to play the game, I'd wait for the EX update which I believe they're planning for this game too, but I certainly wouldn't play it without a recent patch as they seem to have added a number of QoL improvements and fixes some of which really should have just been common sense.

>>16886694

Damn, I guess Boku no Slave Brothel is still the best brothel sim, even though it is basically an idle game.

>>16873029

>うかれてやがる

<way too carried away

<accurate

Nope. Too tame. やがる expresses hatred, frustration, irritation, and contempt in the same way as profanity in English.

>>16873293

Jewgle knows 拙い　can mean clumsy,

it sees 拙者 and only knows 拙, so it just translates it as clumsy, probably.

>>16886431

>I've also been re-reading some manga I previously read in English.

Been considering doing this but with video games instead but I worry that might count as cheating. Granted, some of the English counterparts I haven't played in years so I'm not liable to remember every single NPC but still.

>>16887135

Go for it, the only time I'd say it might be inadvisable is if the original language was English, as awkward translations from English to Japanese are a thing too. Even if you have some recollection from playing in English it's not like you aren't deciphering and learning the Japanese as you go as a result. There's a chance the Japanese could a far cry from the English "translation" and so it might not even give you a push in the right direction to begin with. Really I don't know that there's such a thing as cheating when it comes to studying a language. Closest thing would be using machine translation to augment a bare bones knowledge of Japanese without trying to actually learn, but I'd just call that laziness more than anything. Anything that furthers your knowledge is fair game.

>>16887538

>cheating when it comes to studying a language

Using rikaisama and friends to read a webpage. Depending on how you use it, you might even consider it as a machine translator.

Anyone have 3rd edition Genki scanned? Or do I have to wait for teh Russians to do it?

>>16886855

Jewgle has improved significantly in recent years. Chances that example was translated a long time ago or maybe that guy was just fucking retarded

>>16887625

>http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/GENKI3rd_en_1908.pdf

>grammar will be reedited for greater clarity, such as by making them more concise

lmao did they actually find a way to make Genki's grammar lessons more of a shit show? Literally the only complaint I have about Genki is that its lessons are often literally incorrect in order to be "easy to absorb" and they think they need to make it worse?

What's the best way of translating 我々?

My preferred form is to bolden and underline it or add the name of the group the speaker belongs to after a comma.

>>16890851

We. The distinction between pronouns is just lost in translation. There is no equivalent in English.

>>16890851

Yeah, I meant underline "we" and add name after a comma or [whoever we are]

>>16888427

It's a distinction that doesn't exist in English; don't make it because any attempt to do so will always be unnatural. The only reason you should annotate the group is if it's confusing in English despite context when it isn't in Japanese, so maybe if the Japanese is contrasting two different words that mean we at the same time.

So after a couple weeks I have memorized all of the hiragana and katakana characters. Now I should just keep grinding away at the anki 2k/6k deck until a lot of it sticks with me and then move on to learn grammar? Or what do you guys recommend?

>>16892658

You can learn grammar while learning basic vocab, and it would be a good idea to get into grammar pretty quickly so you can start actually understanding shit.

>>16892803

Unless you want to do nothing but grind word for years, start with the grammar. Look up the few unknown words you see in the grammar lesson, then start reading simple shit as soon as you're able, and you can leave core deck grinding for times when you have nothing better to do.

>>16892658

Do grammar and vocab at the same time. I strongly recommend finding a textbook to use as a guide of what to learn when, even if you don't learn from the textbook itself.

OP, the mega links for

>Basic Kanji Books and grammar(remove YOU WILL NEVER LEARN from the links

don't work anymore. Mind updating?

>>16892803

Ok, any recommendation where to learn grammar?

>>16893241

What do you mean?

>>16893487

>Mind updating?

see >>16868311

>>16893487

There's a few different resources you can check out in the DJT guide. It never hurts to check out multiple to see what you might personally prefer. Some short opinions of mine: Tae Kim's Grammar Guide (the grammar guide, not the complete guide) is good for something that's simple and to the point. Good for getting an elementary grasp on basic grammar to where you could start reading, but it's not totally comprehensive. A lot of people seem to like Genki but it was too boring and dragged on too long for me to keep up with. I thought Japanese the Manga Way was ok in some respects, but it could also be long-winded at times and I think there are resources which have better explanations. The Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books are pretty good for some more comprehensive explanations and I really like them, but being formatted like a dictionary and not like a textbook makes it less suited to fresh beginners. It's easier to use them if you know a little bit of basic grammar beforehand. Resources like it are probably what the above anon is talking about. Even should you want to just Google grammar points or look them up in something like the DoJG, a more sensible learning order that's provided by a standard textbook can be beneficial to refer to.

>>16893487

>what do you mean

Textbooks are usually structured in a specific way by people who already know the source and target language and often have experience teaching it, and the material is ordered to support that structure, so it's a good idea to follow one of these structures even if you don't use the rest of the textbook. A lot of people seem to be opposed to using textbooks at all, so I go out of my way to encourage at least doing this.

I personally however use textbooks much more directly because I learn well that way, but I know not everyone does.

>any recommendation where to learn grammar

For me personally, the most effective way to learn grammar has been to synthesize my understanding of grammar from multiple sources and write that understanding down, but it can be a time consuming process.

Genki is the main textbook I follow, but I tend to not recommend it for grammar if you're only going to use one source. Genki's grammar lessons are a fast approximation of Japanese grammar; it's designed to be quick to understand and close enough to accurate to be functional, but it is often wrong in subtle but important ways in order to achieve this. I recommend Genki if you're going to use only one source for everything with a relatively low time commitment and you can get over the inaccuracies, or if you're willing to supplement the grammar lessons with multiple other sources and have a relatively high time commitment.

I don't have much experience with other sources as complete things because I jump around between them as needed for specific subjects.

To be clear, when I say "multiple sources", I've only bought one book (Genki). Everything else is free online content (Tae Kim, Maggie-sensei, free academic papers, Stack Exchange Japanese threads, etc.)

There seems to be a brash of horrifically shit translations on sadpanda lately. Not pointing any fingers but is someone with a middling grasp on both Japanese and English going mad from extended isolation?

>>16893487

I recommend using many different grammar learning sources in different formats to get a wide variety of explanations. A basic text grammar guide like Tae Kim or Japanese the Manga Way is a good first source for getting a quick foundation. Something like the Dictionary of Japanese Grammar or the various other ones listed on itazuraneko in the OP are good for going into more advanced topics or reviewing earlier ones. There are video lessons like from Cure Dolly or Japanese Ammo that are good too. I don't have much confidence in textbooks, especially if you're learning on your own. The ones I've seen haven't been great and I don't hear many good things about them in general.

I also think 三本塾 could be added to the OP under the youtube videos section, he does a good job of giving lessons in Japanese that could be helpful for more intermediate learners.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0ujXryUUwILURRKt9Eh7Nw

>>16895774

I don't think that was ever any different. Most fan translations are shit and even then the competent ones don't do porn. Also, porn of all things is pretty easy to read raw.

>今度あったらとっ捕まえてメッタメタにしてやるんだから！

Can someone tell me what is that メッタメタ supposed to mean?

There are things like めった打ち, メッタ斬り, maybe it comes from them? I've tried to search for it, apparently there's some kind of attack/whatever in a dragon quest game with that name, but that's all.

More context in embed around 17:15 why don't &t= works on this piece of crap?

>>16895979

>三本塾

Holy shit, actually some kind of spoken nip where I understand more than 1% of it

>>16896090

https://jisho.org/search/%E3%82%81%E3%81%9F%E3%82%81%E3%81%9F

https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/%E3%82%81%E3%81%9F%E3%82%81%E3%81%9F/#jn-217520

>>16896090

メタメタ. Gotta be wary of the emphatic glottal stop. The fact that the word is essentially just the same thing twice like that is usually a big indicator that it's a 擬声語 or 擬態語 type word, which can usually help you out for looking it up. Same deal with words that are like ~っと, like すらっと(すらすら). If you think a word might be onomatopoeic, then try formatting it in each of these standard ways to improve your odds of finding a dictionary entry. It can also help you figure out made-up or otherwise compound words like those moves that aren't available in a dictionary. メッタ > メッタっと > nope? > メタっと > nope? > メタメタ > aha, type process. It's common to see slightly altered forms of onomatopoeia to get the perfect impression for what one wants to express.

I'm going to try learning radicals after hitting a wall with retaining kanji. It sounds more efficient on paper at least. Starting with the 52 most common ones. Does this mean I need to start making mnemonics?

>kunyomi and onyomi

I think I will ignore these for now for sanity sake.

>>16896318

Try learning kanji alongside vocabulary or while reading something, just grinding them without context isn't very good for actually retaining what you've learned (at least for me). You can't really ignore kun/on readings though

>>16896342

>You can't really ignore kun/on readings though

But try to learn them as you need to, no need to memorize every reading of every letter right off the bat

>>16896342

You can do exactly that. It's better to learn only readings that are used in words you actually know. Imagine trying to learn 生 and trying to just memorize the kanji and all the readings without knowing any actual words. Fucking insanity. Instead memorize them along with vocab like　生命

生きる　生な野菜 誕生 etc.

>>16896177

I see. There are more onomatopoeic words in this language than stars on the sky.

Maybe I should try this method when reading that book, because it has shitloads of words that look like what you mentioned and many of them are not found in dictionaries.

>>16896424

The nips are constantly making new onomatopoeia all the time. In case you haven't watched it; here's a cute mp4 full of common anime/manga onomatopoeia used in-context: >>16869519

so what do I do after core 10k? I need another list like that

>>16898895

Read and just use the language in general. Hopefully you've already been doing that for a long while now though.

>>16896318

Radicals are good if you have difficulty differentiating kanji, and they are perfectly suited to making mnemonics, but it's not mandatory.

You didn't expressly say you were going to take the kanji first approach, but if you wanted some more reasoning to learn the readings together with and through vocabulary, just think about how in n months you could either be slowly struggling through games and having fun learning or you could have the ability to brag to your friends about how you know a keyword that typically encompasses the general meaning of quite a few kanji.

>>16900469

Who knows? It is not affiliated with us.

>>16900595

Ｆｕｃｋ　dickscord.

>>16898895

You could start making your own deck based on words you keep seeing, often called a "mining deck", or look up JLPT vocab lists. I've just been making my own deck for some time now.

>>16900469

No idea, I've never used any of those. If it's a discord I assume it's some extremely faggy shit.

>>16901165

Yeah but the issue is the missing sentences + audio and reviewed translations. Just the words alone is extremely devoid of joy, even if I happened across them once in the things I read

>>16901836

I see no drawback of arming lolis.

>>16901841

I do. It makes it harder to have sex with them.

>>16901841

Anon, you remember last time when people gave women rights?

>>16902621

Alt+` and F7 are pretty much the only shortcuts you need most of the time.

>>16903404

If you are doing it to farm credits why not take the easy classes?

>>16903404

It's really going to depend on the class, but completely forgetting the actual content of the class. You might as well because.

1. Now you have something official that says you know Japanese as opposed to just your own word.

2. It's relatively easy to get a language as a minor which looks attractive on resumes.

3. People taking advanced Japanese happen to be interested in Japanese, which means you have people to practice live conversation with. While it does sometimes lead to "the blind leading the blind" situations, having someone to practice live conversation with is valuable experience.

If you must insist on the content, having only taken the beginner courses, they tend to overemphasize vocabulary memorization, which isn't that useful across the multiple realms of a language.

Also this >>16903409

>>16903409

I might go insane listening to someone try to explain what the -te form is several times a week and doing vocab tests on words like ねこ and いぬ (no Kanji on purpose). Also, if I want to pull off a minor, I would have to test out of several classes anyway because the traditional minor takes 4 years and I'm not an incoming freshman (is this where the 4 years to fluency meme came from?).

>>16903424

I also thought of "proof" but I could theoretically test out of the entire minor and still get my fancy paper.

I suppose that it will help me find other people with similar interests, being someone who posts here I don't have many friends.

>>16904098

Fair enough, hearing lectures on shit you already know is pretty infuriating. This is honestly the first time I hear of the "four years to fluency" meme. Something I have heard though is "10000 hours until mastery", which comes to around four years if you work seven hours a day. Maybe that's related.

>>16903404

Also in college, and in my school's Japanese language club. My experience at my school has been that, even though the classes seem to objectively be way too slow, the people in Japanese club that have taken them have better Japanese skills per time invested than people who haven't (like me). If I had to guess it seems that it's because the teacher of the 100 level Japanese classes is a very good teacher who knows how to get them to practice their language skills and teaches them how to help themselves as much as he teaches them the material. So you should ask around about the professors of the classes you'll be taking and to see if they're going to make it worthwhile.

>>16904903

I think in this case it uses the purely grammatical sense of "gender", anon. Don't be autistic and jump at every mention of mere words.

>>16904950

Using the masculine is the default for these kind of situations and its perfectly natural. It's like those who use her/she for the word "person", it just feels odd when you read it.

>>16904968

It's still unlikely the lesson is trying to push a "THINK OF THE WOMEN" sentiment, anon. That's all I'm saying.

>>16904903

>to each is their own

>The singular they emerged by the 14th century,[3] about a century after plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since then and has gained currency in official contexts.

did this nigger study english from medieval texts?

>>16904950

The intent was made perfectly clear when he calls it a "disease" of the English language.

>>16905089

I think that he separated the his/her on purpose to emphasize the key word "each" with the two genders. But coming up with this reasoning to remember the Kanji in the first place is a testament of his twisted mind.

>>16904903

The person who wrote this is a retard for many reasons. First of all, it is only by complete luck that the Latin phrase is gender-neutral, because quisque is abnormal in how little it distinguishes gender, and the dative form cuique doesn't distinguish it all. Were it almost any other word, the Latin would be "harder" to render in a way that they would find acceptable.

Second, English is literally better at this than Latin, because it allows the use of "they" for singular animate referents of unspecified or generic sex, a function that Latin exclusively fulfills with the masculine. In other words, they could have rendered it as "to each their own", but instead they decided to create a problem so they could rant about it.

Third, the entire premise of the argument is based on an outdated and unscientific understanding of the function and history of grammatical gender in Indo-European languages, and if you literally are making tools to teach other people about language you should be able to research the slightest part of the scientific consensus on a topic before you rant about it in the material that you are making for other people to learn languages.

Fourth, that's the worst mnemonic I've ever read. "mouth between legs" (which isn't what that radical means, but whatever) somehow means "to each their own", and from this you are supposed to pluck out not the meaning of the phrase itself, and not the meaning of the first word in the phrase, and not the meaning of the third word in the phrase, and not the meaning of the fourth word in the phrase, and not any combination thereof, but exclusively the second word in the phrase.

>>16904950

The purely grammatical sense of the word "gender" doesn't even apply to English, but I doubt that's what either of you actually meant. It's perfectly obvious that this person is not differentiating linguistic and human gender and considers the former to simply be a direct expression of the other. First of all, what does "gender bias" mean in the context grammar, and if it doesn't refer to humans, why is it a "disease" of the language?

>>16905464

The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course is nice since it has readings, vocabulary, and stroke order included, not just that weird keyword shit. If you really want to study kanji I think it's a decent source.

>>16905471

>readings

You don't want that though.

>>16904903

>>16905464

Remember the Kanji is garbage and for the life of me I don't understand why it keeps getting recommended. Has to be blind leading the blind or something. Most of the mnemonics take longer to learn than the character itself and they don't even give you etymologic information; it's literally more work for worse results. If I remember correctly, Heisig doesn't even really know Japanese either, but that may be just me conflating a bunch of idiots in my head so take that bit with a grain of salt.

Just learn kanji via vocab. If you want to learn handwriting as well you may have to practice that a bit on its own, but for recognition and IMEs learning kanji implicitly works well. Radicals aren't required but I found it makes distinguishing similar kanji easier because you work with four radicals instead of 14 arbitrary strokes. Stroke order is also pretty easy to pick up implicitly, it follows a few rules but is usually just the most convenient way to write the thing. I usually use kakijun.jp when I'm unsure on stroke order.

Also, in my experience the best mnemonics are usually made by yourself. I can't forget 親切 simply because the first time I saw it I read it as おやぎり like a retard. That sort of stuff sticks with you.

>>16905477

>Just learn kanji via vocab

So I just need to read Japanese material and look up words in a dictionary along with Anki grinding ? That seems like a very unpleasant way of learning if you have a very limited vocabulary.

>>16905471

I'll look that up. Thanks.

>>16905493

>So I just need to read Japanese material and look up words in a dictionary along with Anki grinding ?

Well yes, this is pretty much how you learn a language, though this list is missing something to learn grammar. How did you expect this to go?

>>16905526

>though this list is missing something to learn grammar

I already read Tae Kim's guide and I can read simple text, but without vocabulary, I have to look up so much words that I will forget them the next day.

>>16905566

You read the entirety of Tae Kim without doing vocabulary at all? Why?

>>16905573

How should I work on vocabulary ? Anki reviews are a fucking chore and playing games at this stage still seems impossible.

>>16905582

>Anki reviews are a fucking chore

I suppose you're an English native who knows no other languages? Vocabulary is always a chore, especially at the beginning. While there comes a point where you can drop Anki after a while, it's still the easiest way to get started. You need some basis to expand on.

>>16905475

Readings are good. Trying to just up and learn them without even knowing or also learning some relevant vocabulary isn't exactly ideal, but what's the sense in "knowing" a bunch of kanji if you have no way of actually using them. Not saying you need to be able to list every reading for a character upon seeing it, just advising against what anon's currently doing with RTK, "learning" kanji before learning Japanese.

>>16905493

Even if you find trying to learn kanji from vocabulary without any additional focus on kanji isn't for you and decide to go back to doing kanji study, I'd highly suggest learning them in tandem with vocabulary, unless you want to continue thinking that actually using the language is unpleasant for months to come.

>>16905464

this kanji is made up of two radicals: 女 and 戌. The latter in no way means march. It is originally a pictogram of an axe, and now means the sign of the dog in the chinese zodiac. "woman with axe" and "woman with dog" are both better mnemonics for intimidation, and one of them is a lot funnier. Even better, neither of them are just objectively wrong, like this one is.

>>16906014

>>16905622

>>16905677

Thank you. I guess I'll get grinding.

>>16905622

At what stage would you drop anki? I've pretty much shoved it to the backburner myself. Not completely dropped, I still try to do a little of it every day even if I sort of skip through the cards more than actually practice them. It gets to be enough of a chore that I procrastinate everything else because I'm putting off doing anki. Many days I might do several hours more game-reading practice, if not for the thought that "If I start reading this now I'm going to have to quit in the middle to do anki before my deadline"

>>16906282

I never stopped even after passing N1. It only takes me about 15 minutes and it's a habit at this point anyway.

>>16905464

Something like "they key to kanji" might help if you memorize etymology of most radicals.

>>16905422

Isn't each plural?

>>16905566

How/why do you learn grammar without having any words to use it with?

with vocabulary you can at least get by and sound like a cute retard who's trying really hard.

>>16907238

>How/why do you learn grammar without having any words to use it with?

Learning grammar feels less tedious and boring and you can actually feel like you're making progress. As to how, you can just learn the words used in the examples.

>>16904903

>>16905464

This is weird, I'm currently grinding the German version of Remembering the Kanji and it doesn't have any SocJus bullshit at all. While it does have the same mnemonic for intimidate, it uses the word "Emanze", which is a derogatory term for female Women's Right activists.

>>16907502

Perhaps the translator is cutting out some of it. But to be fair, it's really subtle and it's just some words here and there that hint to this man's ideas. Mnemonics being subjective and having to do with one's imagination, the ones came up by a liberal faggot whose mind is filled with "the current year" references may not be the best for someone who does not share the same mindset. Or maybe I'm just too autistic.

What about you ? Did it help you in some way ? How deep are you in the book ? Did you know a fair amount of vocab before starting it ? And what made you want to study Kanji ?

>>16907839

I recommend his method, but I don't recommend his mnemonics. Browse this site for user submitted mnemonics instead.

https://kanji.koohii.com/

He stops giving his own mnemonics like halfway through the book anyway, so you're going to need the ones from this site or to make your own either way.

>>16907850

>>16907850

I don't think there's anything wrong with the RTK mnemonic method itself, I did something kind of similar, but I don't like that it doesn't (afaik) incorporate vocabulary into the mix, or at least recommend the learner to do so their self. A lot of the people who use it place way too much importance on it, disregarding every other facet of the language. Not sure if there's something in the book that compels people into thinking they need to know 2000+ the kanji before they can do anything else or what. It always makes me sad to see some of these people months in who still don't know a lick of Japanese, struggling to retain all these kanji outside of the context of the language they're used in.

>>16907839

>Well, if you want to learn Kanji you don't have many options. You either use the Heisig method, try to memorize 2200 Kanji by force, visit a language school or move to Japan.

Or you just learn it through/while learning new words. I guess you would classify this as "by force", but if anything Heisig is bruteforcier as you are grinding kanji in isolation, without any connections to anything else.

>>16869851

Nygiaaa!~

>>16869885

Synesthesia

Most people exhibit this when someone rubs Styrofoam or scratch nails on a chalkboard…anyone claiming it's not backed by science is up to something.

>>16873044

…pretty sure accuracy implies being close and not having to be EXACT…which you can't be when translating to strict languages from floaty ones like Japanese.

As long as the context is correct and doesn't stray so far as to completely lost he original meaning it should be fine.

And the word is "Transliteration", right?

>>16907924

Transliteration to iu no ha kore da. Expression of the pronunciation of one language using another language's writing system.

>>16869535

>not backed by science

you ever have a feeling like you were being watched? That's ASMR in action

>>16907902

Of course it needs to be done alongside something else. If you are just grinding Anki and it takes you 20 minutes per day, that's what can you do if you can't read yet.

>>16908378

There's a fair amount of people that for a variety of reasons don't seem to realize that though, unfortunately. I know I've seen a number of people inspired by the all Japanese all the time guy, who supposedly learned kanji before even learning kana and has recommended following in those retarded footsteps, even advocating against learning Japanese while you do, for example. It might seem like common sense to start learning vocabulary and grammar right away, but it's not apparently.

>>16909410

I wonder if the mistake potential language learners make is thinking that by learning enough kanji they'd have automatically learned useful words or phrases? That would take a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the language, though, so that probably isn't it. The little I know I learned in a traditional textbook-based program, though, without attempts to learn how to read the language before speaking it or not learning one while learning the other strictly or whatever, so my point of view is colored by that.

>>16909561

You'd be surprised then. We had some fag in these threads maybe a few years ago that studied kanji and kanji alone without vocabulary advocated openly for the study of kanji onry. He claimed that he could magically understand Japanese without having bothered with grammar and without even needing to

>>16910330

Maybe he accidentally learned Chinese instead and was too ashamed to admit it. I don't know.

>>16909561

I'm sure different people have their different misconceptions that lead them down that path, and that's definitely one of them. Pretty sure some people mistakenly conflate kanji (+kana) with the alphabet; thinking they can't properly learn vocabulary until they know all of the "letters" in addition to not understanding measures they could feasibly take if they encountered unknown characters. Some people definitely just blindly follow others who espouse certain methods without doing any thinking for themselves. I think the basic reasoning the AJATT guy gives for it is, "if you "learn" kanji before you learn Japanese, it'll basically be like you're a Chinese person learning Japanese, and Japanese is easier for Chinese to learn than for English (or other) native speakers."

>>16907238

>isn't each plural

No. When used as a pronoun 'each' has singular grammatical number; when used as a determiner it requires the singular form of the noun, and as an adverb it doesn't matter because adverbs don't have grammatical number in English.

>Each of them has gone. (pronoun)

>Each bowl is clean. (determiner)

>They take one each. (adverb)

>>16907924

What do you mean "floaty"? Do you just mean context sensitive?

>>16911507

>なんで私がこんな格好しなきゃいけないのかしら…

I wonder why I have to do this appearance…

>イレブンの頼みだから仕方ないけど

Eleven's request so it can't be helped but…

>マルティナに睨まれたって？

Martina glared at? (I could have this backwards and it's you were glared at, Martina? knowing who is who would help)

>そりゃお前「バニーになってくれ」なんて言ったらなぁ

Well you said "become a bunny for me" (I'm pretty much guessing at そりゃ, but I doubt it changes the meaning any).

Obviously as soon as I post this someone who actually knows what they are doing is going to rip me a new one, but I had to try.

>>16911533

Thanks for that.

Martina is the girl, Eleven is the guy in purple.

>>16911533

The イレブン is probably referencing that they are characters from Dragon Quest 11, not a name. The マルティナに睨まれたって？line is more like "You say that Martina glared at you?". In the English version her name is Jade but the original Japanese is Martina.

>>16911620

>The マルティナに睨まれたって？line is more like "You say that Martina glared at you?".

I'd say highly unlikely but I'm still learning myself. The に particle (which points towards who or what came before as a direction) throws that off so it sounds more like "Kept an eye on Martina?" or "Gawking at Martina?". Again, don't quote me on that.

>>16911640

>"Gawking at Martina?"

I don't know if it's right, but that makes the most sense in context.

>>16911653

Yes, especially the context from the other lines. Tried making sense of the last one but all I can get is a rough and/or inaccurate idea of it. Eleven told Martina to become a bunny girl?

>>16909561

It's just a lot easier to gauge your progress when you're doing Kanji grinding. Like, let's say, that you have finished the entire RTK deck, that means that you now know one reading of 2,200 Kanji. You can objectively measure your Kanji skill. For comparison, if you finish Genki 1, it's a lot harder to say how good your Japanese now actually is. So I guess that for most people, it's just a lot more convenient to focus on Kanji first. It also doesn't help that, even if you can speak Japanese perfectly and know Hiragana and Katakana, if you don't know Kanji, you might as well be illiterate.

>>16911640

With the form of 睨む (sometimes called the passive form), the person doing the action is marked with に, and the person who is receiving the action is marked with は・が, in this case it looks like the main character would have said it and thus omitted the 私が part like is very normal in Japanese, or Erik didn't repeat that part and is just loosely quoting what was said.

>>16911708

So in other words I was right the first time? >>16911533

My guess as to the overall meaning (paraphrased, not direct translated) is "Martina glared at you because you told her to dress like a bunny girl". I'm fairly certain the omitted subject is you, not I here.

>>16911699

>if you don't know Kanji, you might as well be illiterate.

This isn't true at all. I was playing games and reading with less than 1000 kanji and I could have started even sooner than I did. There's plenty of media that's either full kana or that can be read with full furigana and with tools like rikaisama and text-hookers, not only is the entire internet at your fingertips, but plenty of games as well. Even for people like myself who don't like to over-rely on the convenience of those tools, it's incredibly easy to look up kanji you don't know through handwriting recognition software or stuff like Jisho's radical look-up. It's something you'd be doing either way because you won't know any vocabulary and probably no readings either since a lot of the people using RTK actually don't learn any readings at all, since it's commonly recommended (for good reason) to learn them through/with vocabulary regardless. If all you know is kanji, then you might as well be illiterate.

>>16911533

First line is her talking about having to dress like that. Maybe that's what you meant but the English is awkward if so. The って is a more casual という and the そりゃ is a contracted それは.

>>16911987

I was aiming for literal translation, not coherent English. I know the intent was talking about the outfit, but that's not what it said.

って means about a billion different things, I'm pretty sure it can also replace は as well. Fortunately it doesn't really change the meaning either way. Maybe "[you] say Martina glared at [you]?" そりゃ is obvious in hindsight, but I don't think that affects the meaning either.

>>16911699

>It's easier to gauge your progress when you're doing Kanji grinding.

I would say it's actually just easier to track yourself into thinking you're making progress when you aren't. Someone who knows 2200 Kanji knows as much about Japanese as someone who's memorized 2200 English root-morphemes and affixes. That is to say, they could know absolutely any amount of the language because these are both skills that have very little bearing on your ability until you are at a very high level in vocabulary and grammar already, and both peoples skill level with their respective language is going to be primarily determined by literally everything else that they've done with it besides this.

>>16909561

I think this is a big part of it. People need to challenge the idea that Kanji are like letters with the idea that learning them is more like learning root words and affixes.

Compare the kanji 示 to the Latinate root -monstr-. The Kanji gives the meaning of "show" and maps it to a set of possible readings, where as the root takes a set of (morpho)phonemes and maps them to the meaning (show). However, neither is a usable part of their respective languages by themselves, and you don't need to have studied either overtly to know the spelling, pronunciation, or meaning of 「示威」 and "demonstration", but it might help.

>>16911533

It's you were glared at by Martina.

Notice the passive voice construction.

>>16907902

>I don't think there's anything wrong with the RTK mnemonic method itself

Whatever floats your boat. I consider memorizing stories rather inefficient. Also do bear the following caveats in mind:

>they do little to help with ateji (e.g. 寿司(すし), 多分(たぶん), 沢山(たくさん)) and jukujikun (e.g. 大人(おとな) grown-up, 流行り(はやり) trend)

>Nipland's simplification took a graphical approach, not etymological, which led to some meanings getting muddled (e.g. 臭's old form uses 犬, not 大, which makes more sense)

However, RTK is still very flawed:

>you miss out on plenty of goodies, like taking advantage of 音符(おんぷ, part of kanji that indicates pronunciation) when applicable. e.g. anything with that 且 on the right, like 祖父(そふ) 狙撃(そげき) 組織(そしき), or characters which include 義, like 正義(せいぎ), 会議(かいぎ), 犠牲(ぎせい)

>you spend a couple months going over all (jouyou) kanji to connect them to arbitrary keywords and never learn a single Japanese word

>some kanji have a fuckton of uses (e.g. 経: 経 sutra, 経済 economy, 経路 route, course, 神経 nerve (anatomy), 経つ passage (of time, etc.)). a single keyword is going to be of limited use. also see the point about ateji and jukujikun above

>>16910871

>I'm sure different people have their different misconceptions that lead them down that path

Not pure kanji study per se as that's been repeatedly proven to be retarded, but I can explain the neglecting grammar to focus on kanji/readings/vocab part. There are 2 things people really hate:

>being unable to read (i.e. not just being unable to understand, but being unable to utter what's written at all)

>missing critical information. it's as frustrating as listening to a noisy recording or reading blurry scans

If you have to put everything on hold and hit a dictionary every 2 seconds to check how to read a couple symbols or a compound it's absolutely infuriating (for you and anyone else present). Especially with real-time tasks, where there's no pause or rewind button. Also being a ワープロ馬鹿 is not very appealing either.

To illustrate my point, if you don't know what the 'make ${X} out of' ${Y}' in 'make a 📿 out of someone's 🦷' means, you can still understand if you know what 'make' means, that '📿' reads necklace and that you're supposed to read '🦷' as teeth (not tooth), whereas if you only know what the structure means but don't know either icon or how they're read the meaning's going to get lost on you.

The argument is, if you clear the biggest hurdle (writing system, with vocabulary as a bonus) you can finally learn Japanese like any other easier language, without hitting a roadbump every 2 milliseconds. It's especially prevalent with moon languages because logographs and compounds mean whenever you can't type/sound things out you're either forced to handwrite unfamiliar shapes with your mouse or search by radical, which breaks your flow and greatly adds to the frustration.

>>16913048

>you miss out on plenty of goodies, like taking advantage of 音符(おんぷ, part of kanji that indicates pronunciation) when applicable

No you learn all that either way when you learn vocabulary.

>>16913048

ワープロ馬鹿's are the smart ones. Actually wasting your time learning to write kanji is an exercise in pointlessness. Any document of any significance has to be typed up anyway. You're not gonna do any productive work by hand, if you lived in Nipland. And if you need to submit a ceremonious letter by hand, you could just look up the stroke orders then. A lot better than wasting years learning to write Kanji which will be easily forgotten over night as soon as you stop writing by hand.

>>16913106

Learning more than you need is never a bad thing.

>>16913048

>Whatever floats your boat. I consider memorizing stories rather inefficient.

I never went quite that far, just some short one-liners based on whatever names I had for the radicals. At this point I don't think I remember a single one of them anymore. Haven't used mnemonics for remembering kanji ever since I started reading though.

>they do little to help with ateji

Provided the person is going with the commonly recommended method of learning readings through vocabulary, individual kanji study isn't really meant to help memorize readings whatsoever, let alone ateji. They could choose, however, to use their kanji keywords in mnemonics to help remember readings, including any ateji. "It's 'taboo' (多分) to eat 'many' 'parts' in a 'minute'." Personally, I'm not a fan of those mnemonics that try to somewhat mimic the pronunciation of a word using a word of your native language, but you could use a specific keyword or something instead, to indicate a word uses an ateji without having a specific pronunciation hint. You can do this all the same learning vocabulary and kanji simultaneously, of course, so it's not a benefit of focusing only on kanji. In fact, being able to associate mnemonics to both kanji and actual vocabulary is a strong reason to learn both at the same time as it makes remembering both easier.

This sort of potential is kind of the primary appeal of associating a single keyword to a kanji, I think. Although I very much agree with you that it's somewhat flawed with the multiple meanings kanji often carry. I always use a character dictionary with new kanji and try to associate characters with a vague general meaning or two, based on one or two of their most commonly used meanings which isn't perfect either, but it's good enough for me.

>you can finally learn Japanese like any other easier language, without hitting a roadbump every 2 milliseconds.

Although I understand that this is what some people think, it's not really the case. As I mentioned in one of my posts, even if you have your kanji keywords, you're still stopping every 2 seconds to look up all the vocabulary ignored until that point. Still handwriting the kanji out in all likelihood since all they know is keywords because learning readings through vocabulary is much easier and so how more people recommend doing it. Even if they did learn some readings, they'll still inevitably be getting hung up quite often on readings on words with alternate, unknown readings, on/kun quandaries, atjeji, jukujikun and rendaku. It's disappointing, but I don't really think there's any efficient way to prevent the beginning reader stage from being a bit tedious. Just need to embrace it.

>>16913048

Let me say this to anyone who feels that way about grammar/Kanji/vocab

>There are 2 things people really hate:

>>being unable to read (i.e. not just being unable to understand, but being unable to utter what's written at all)

This is annoying at first, but it's superficial and isn't actually a problem for very long. Pronouncing a word when learning any other language isn't giving you any information that helps you understand that Kanji doesn't. It's annoying but it isn't changing anything.

Second, you can do something equivalent to this most of the time after learning a modest amount of vocab. What you do is

>If you've seen the Kanji in any other word you know, use that reading even if it's wrong.

>If you've seen a similar (contain the same radicals) in any word you know, use that reading even if it's wrong.

It doesn't matter that they're wrong unless you're seeing the word so often that you start to memorize that pronunciation, in which case it's a word you should look up.

>>missing critical information.

Focusing on Kanji is giving you a lot less critical information than grammar is. Grammar is more important than you think it is, especially for reading. Kanji are a long term investment; it is very rare that studying Kanji will be the difference between understanding a sentence and not until you already have a high level of attainment in vocab and grammar.

>If you have to put everything on hold and hit a dictionary every 2 seconds … it's absolutely infuriating.

This is a normal part of learning any language. The only difference is being able to sound out words you don't know, which again is something you're better off getting over or learning to work around, and what it takes to look up the word. It's normal to have to spend a lot of time using a dictionary when learning a new language even with closely related languages that use the same script. Expanding your vocabulary will help you with this in any language.

>Also being a ワープロ馬鹿 is not very appealing either

I completely agree with this, but you can avoid this without studying Kanji overtly by studying vocab in the right way. I personally quiz myself over both the Kanji and kana spelling of every word at the same time, only count the answer as correct if both of them are independently correct, use typed answer cards in Anki to force myself to actively recall the word every time and to highlight mistakes that I might not have noticed otherwise, and use drawn input for Kanji if at all possible (I have a ~$30 drawing/OSU tablet that I recently got. Before that I used a tablet or phone with a Japanese drawn keyboard), because this is the easiest way to input Kanji without using kana and an IME.

>if you clear the biggest hurdle (writing system, with vocabulary as a bonus) you can finally learn Japanese like any other easier language, without hitting a roadbump every 2 milliseconds.

Again, if you think this is right, I'd be curious what other languages you've learned and how old you were when you learned them. Hitting road bumps often is normal for when learning a language for a long time until you reach a critical point where you understand most of the sentence anyway. Even then it's dependent on context. I can speak Spanish conversationally and still have to pause constantly when I try to read Borges, or internet slang for that matter. Kanji is also giant hurdle that doesn't pay off for a long time. You're increasing the chance you burn out before you have usable results.

>It's especially prevalent with moon languages because logographs and compounds mean whenever you can't type/sound things out you're either forced to handwrite unfamiliar shapes with your mouse or search by radical, which breaks your flow and greatly adds to the frustration.

This is the actual key difference when it comes to looking things up in Japanese vs alphabetic langauges. Here's the best way I've found to get around it. One, familiarizing yourself with stroke order rules and getting a little bit of practice using them will let you draw the kanji close enough for a computer to guess it >90% of the time by eyeballing it. Second, again it's easier to use a phone, tablet, or drawing pad than trying to draw with your mouse. Third, if you know any other word that has the Kanji in it, it's best to just type that word and delete every other kanji you don't need.

Some kanji are completely retarded.

子 means child or young offspring in general, while 仔 refers strictly to animal young. Yes, the one with the 人偏 refers to non-human young animals.

>>16913486

I never actually knew that the radical that looks like イ was a mutation of 人, I think that's the dumber part honestly.

>>16913603

Not that dumb. Just rotate イ by like 45° counter-clockwise and you'll see.

The side radicals for 邑 and 阜 on the other hand…

Is there an RTK deck that's literally just RTK but the Kanji are first and then you get the explanation? I feel like it would compliment my normal RTK Anki study perfectly.

>>16913080

>No you learn all that either way when you learn vocabulary.

I'd expect a book about mnemonics to at least have a couple pages dedicated to listing details such as that one than finding out accidentally myself way later down the line.

>>16913106

ワープロ馬鹿's are the smart ones

It depends on your goals. I personally don't like doing things halfway.

>you could just look up the stroke orders then

Stroke orders are most decidedly not the problem as that can usually be guessed on the spot save a few tens of outliers (out 2-3 thousand). It's remembering the readings of a kanji (reading), or the parts of a kanji (writing by hand) or which kanji are used in a word (writing, especially if the word is not in your IME dictionary, like 逝け面).

>>16913285

>even if you have your kanji keywords […] you're still stopping every 2 seconds to look up all the vocabulary ignored until that point

I never said I used RTK and even criticized its approach in my post. I even said it sucks because arbitrary keywords are stupid and it doesn't teach real words.

>Although I understand that this is what some people think, it's not really the case

Maybe for those who rely on RTK.

>You can do this all the same learning vocabulary and kanji simultaneously

I do just that. Whenever I think of 喉(のど) I'm instantly reminded of 喉が渇きました and 'node,' then 淋巴節(lymph node), then 林(はやし, リン), 巴(ともえ, ハ), 節旁(ふしづくりー＞卩) and 曲げ割符(まげわりふー＞⺋). 符 refers to mahjong(麻雀) fu, reminds me of 翻/飜(han), then 翻訳(ほんやく), 順番, 羽(はね), 飛ぶ(とぶ), 跳(はね.る, と.ぶ), etc.

>>16914261

>I never said I used RTK and even criticized its approach in my post.

I know, I didn't mean "you" specifically. You were talking about other peoples' rationale for heavily focusing on kanji while neglecting other things and I was just addressing how the particular idea that you brought up, which some other people have as their motivation for that approach to kanji, doesn't hold water. Just making a counter-argument in case anybody reading is on the fence about RTK and wants more thoughts on that. Of the things you've said pertaining to learning kanji, I think the only thing I'm not really fully with you on is that you seem to possibly have a distaste for using mnemonics. Perhaps it's just Heisig's style of them that you don't like though.

>get reading ASAP and seeing them complain about spending 15 minutes on 1 page of a manga.

I'm a big advocate for reading as soon as you can manage, although I wouldn't say someone's managing very well if that's typical for most normal pages of manga. Still don't think it's a bad thing by any means. Maybe it's not completely fun looking up 10 words and some grammar every other page, but you're learning and it'll only make anything else that reads somewhat similarly go by more smoothly. Learning from manga will typically make subsequent manga easier than plain study using things like the Core2/6k cards will, so it's about the best thing to do to specifically work on that issue. You don't stay in that predicament long if you keep it up. Even if it's only for 20 minutes a day or every other day until you're almost burnt out on reading for the day. As you improve that time will grow and grow and at before long it won't even feel like studying anymore.

>>16914261

Remembering the readings of a kanji is irrelevant to writing. You can remember the readings of a Kanji without knowing how to write it. And the full form of a word in kanji should be learned when you memorize the in the first place anyway.

いけめん usually means handsome. That's just a ironic ateji, like 夜露死苦.

>>16914274

>イ

>That's katakana i.

I hope it was clear that I was using イ as the approximate shape of 亻because I didn't know how to type 亻 (still don't, but I can copy-paste).Granted イ is a lot closer to 人 in shape than 亻is so that did sort of backfire.

I've been playing Stardew Valley recently. I put the game in Japanese. Here's some text from the game. Tell me if you think this is a good interpretation of what's being said:

>クリントの持ち物を物色してみた。鍛冶屋エプロンの予備や雑誌数冊、古い剣１本、それに彼のお母さんが笑顔で写った写真がある。

Looked through Clint's possessions. Among them, there is a spare blacksmith's apron and volumes of magazines, an old sword book, and in that there's a picture of his smiling mother.

Also, explain to me how こと works when attached to a pronoun cause I don't get it. For example, in the blacksmith's room, he wrote a letter to another citizen:

>エミリーへ

>君は俺のことを友達としか考えてないと思う。　気づいてなくて当然だ。　俺は恥ずかしがりやだから、君に想いを伝える勇気がないんだ。だからこうして手紙に書いてる。　どうせ書いても、丸めて部屋の色に捨ててしまうだろけど。

To Emily,

I think that I don't only think of you as friend. It's natural that you haven't noticed. Because I'm a shy person, I don't have the courage to convey my thoughts to you. Therefore, that is why I'll write them in a letter. Anyway, as much as I write, it seems that I can't help but crumble up and throw away my letters.

How am I supposed to understand 俺のこと? Give me a literal translation if you can.

>>16914274

>Try this one. It contains all 2200 kanji in RTK1 6th ed's order. https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2009196675

Thank you, this looks way better than the one I currently have. But for some reason the deck itself doesn't show up but instead all its cards get added to the default deck.

>>16917041

>an old sword book

It looks like the 1本 is being used as a counter, not indicating a book, so it's saying there is 1 old sword.

>and in that

The それに would be more like "and also/furthermore…".

For the のこと thing, see this: https://itazuraneko.neocities.org/grammar/dojg/dojgpages/intermediateのこと.html

The としか looks like a combination of と and しか, so it would be like "I think you don't think of me as something other than a friend."

>>16917041

>I think that I don't only think of you as friend.

It's more like "I think you consider me nothing more than a friend"

>>16917126

Nvm I fixed it by updating. Turns out my version of Anki was super old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kfkw7w8jMk

I wonder why would the Japs create and watch this video. It's just a simple retelling of a wikipedia article.

Can't they understand basics of macroconomy?

Can't they grasp some 専門用語？

Or can't they read 日本語？

Someone please recommend me some good Nip JewTube channels that I can listen to in the background while I'm learning, for full immersion™? A gaming channel would be ideal but I take everything else as long as it's not text to speech or a fucking Vtuber.

>>16918339

*anything else

I know full well how 私, 僕, and 俺 are used in fiction and what they imply about the characters, but I'm curious to know how well that translates to real life. In fiction, a character will virtually always stick to one pronoun regardless of the formality level or anything else, except maybe when they need to use わたくし. I'm wondering if that's the same in reality, or if people tend to only use 僕 and 俺 in more casual situations, or perhaps not at all.

>>16921534

Thought I'd check the usage notes on Wiktionary, and, in particular, I checked the page for 俺 at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/俺#Japanese and under there was an interesting chart under the See Also section.

There are some situations that overwhelmingly favor of pronoun and others where they're nearly interchangeable. I don't know, but I would assume that the selection of a pronoun other than the most common of for a situation means that you're trying to convey essentially the same thing about yourself that a writer is trying to convey by having a character use it, and the strength of your assertion depends on how uncommon it is to use that pronoun in that situation.

>>16918339

https://www.youtube.com/user/norunine/videos

He has a radio voice and has done shitloads of let's plays, including many Western games.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV8gEA4XEycdFx-myEpokLg/videos

RTA videos with commentary.

Dunno what your problem is with vtubers, it's not like they speak some special virtual dialect of Japanese.

>>16921654

I've been looking for something like this myself. I wouldn't mind vtubers myself as long as it isn't text to speech or heavily altered, so if you have recommendations for that too

>>16921662

The vast majority of vtubers don't use text-to-speech or voice modulation, and most of those that do are literally whos.

I'm not too familiar with male vtubers (which I guess would be the best for learning purposes), but Nijisanji has some popular ones and they do a lot of collaboration videos.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbc8fwhdUNlqi-J99ISYu4A/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb5JxV6vKlYVknoJB8TnyYg/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSFCh5NL4qXrAy9u-u2lX3g/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIytNcoz4pWzXfLda0DoULQ/videos

https://nijisanji.ichikara.co.jp/member/

>>16921675

>and most of those that do are literally whos.

Which explains why they are the first ones to show up on searches, especially for someone who's only interested at the most surface of levels. Hard to know they are being faggots if you can't really understand what they are saying to begin with.

>>16921654

Thank you very much!

>Dunno what your problem is with vtubers, it's not like they speak some special virtual dialect of Japanese.

I just don't like the fake anime voice they always put on. I don't want to listen to squeaky toy noises, I want to learn Japanese.

>>16921739

They have different voices just like anime characters do. Not all of them even sound like they're putting on a voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kwjPZLjF3w

>>16923530

Everything good must come to an end, it seems like.

Also that kanji soup

>>16923530

I'm not concerned about the new BO banning the thread, I'm more concerned about Ron banning loli.

>>16923530

>tfw I can read that image without much trouble

feels good man

>>16923755

I could read until 結婚した. I will never learn this fucking language with it's even more fucked up writing system.

>>16923762

it just seems scary cause its a sequence of big words, but none of the kanji used there are actually that obscure, i only had to look up 兼

>>16923762

Neither can I, but don't worry. We'll all going to make it, Anon.

So what site are we migrating to?

Oh looks like someone already made a nip learning thread on fatchan. I'll see you guys there if you decide to leave this anti-free speech site.

https://fatchan.org/v/thread/1562.html

さようなら～

>>16924657

I'll be going to fatchan, personally. Julay is autistic in the bad way and Josh can go fuck himself.

>>16923530

Nothing scary. 兼 basically works like AND.

So she'll appoint you to disaster relief minister AND physical labor minister AND explosive materials disposal minister.

>今なら…

>まだ…

>冗談で済むから…

She's saying if they turn back now, they can still pass it off as a joke. The faggot translator somehow got the opposite of what was actually said.

>>16923850

I might have believed you a few years ago, but now…

>>16924683

Noice. I'll have to port my scripts to that site to make it really comfy though.

>>16924746

>Nothing scary.

But it's long and looks scary. It doesn't help if you don't know half of the kanji.

I'm guessing that the lot of us are back after Fatchan kicked the bucket? From what I've seen the alternatives lack these threads so here I am for some clarification.

"となえた！" translates to chant and/or recite. In the context of say, a Dragon Quest game does that get shifted to casting? Like for example, タバサはラリホーをとなえた！ saying that Tabitha is casting Snooze (had to find a Dragon Quest wiki for the spell translation and I wonder how one gets Snooze from rariho). Here's the pic for context. I'd upload it but loli is getting awfully tenuous these days.

https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/20637968

>>16931053

>I wonder how one gets Snooze from rariho

maybe it's a dig at Final Fantasy. The dwarves in various FF games have the catchphrase Rally-Ho (or Lally-Ho, or whatever variant)

>>16931176

That was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the phrase and when Rikaikun/Yomichan failed to make sense of it I figured it was some sort of spell. Judging by the pic she's basically putting her dad to sleep every other moment while riding him. Wish I could read the other lines but the font's too sloppy.

>>16931245

It's hand written, isn't it?

Here are the other lines:

>だめなのに

>お父さんはお母さんのなのに

>ティロリロリロ

>イケナイのに

>すっごくきもちよくって

>お母さんの横でお父さんとするの

>>16931053

Spell names in DQ aren't real words, they're just invented.

>>16931176

It can't be, because it's in DQ1, and DQ1 predates FF by many years. FF1 didn't come out until just before DQ3.

>>16931260

That's not completely true.

For instance, メラ is just short for メラメラ which is a real onomatopoeia for flaring up or bursting into flames.

>>16931263

Well yeah, there are exceptions like that one, but it's not like you can "translate" onomatopoeia directly.

>>16931283

It's still a real Japanese word.

https://ejje.weblio.jp/sentence/content/%E3%82%81%E3%82%89%E3%82%81%E3%82%89

>>16931296

Sure, I'm not arguing that.

>>16931256

Thank you. I'm not very good at reading hand written fonts and OCR isn't too good at getting those. Some grammar points throw me off but I suspect they're supposed to appear unfinished seeing as it looks like he's being constantly put to sleep mid-sentence. Maybe. Perhaps のに can end a sentence in some cases.

>>16931312

>he's being constantly put to sleep mid-sentence

It's actually Tabitha who's speaking (or maybe thinking) in that pic

>>16931314

Context-based languages are tricky. I thought the dad was telling her to stop (だめなのに, イケナイのに, etc) but I guess it can be interpreted as her telling him to not wake up, hence the sleep spells. The last one I struggle to work out mainly due to the many meanings just one word can have. お母さんの横でお父さんとするの. Is it simply saying that the hero and Bianca are sleeping next to each other? Some of the lesser definitions of 横 is "lying down" and "beside". Much as I love making whatever little progress I can with this language, the rampant second guessing makes me ever so slightly less envious of fan translators.

>>16931319

You could interpret のに as "even though". I'd translate the image like this:

だめなのに　"Even though I can't..!"

お父さんはお母さんのなのに "Even though Dad is Mom's…!" (as in 'belongs to')

イケナイのに "Even though it's wrong…!

お母さんの横でお父さんとするの "I'm doing it with Dad, right beside Mom!"

Translating hentai doujins must be a fucking shitty job

>>16931328

>Translating hentai doujins must be a fucking shitty job

Which is why I'm practicing with games and only hoard hentai. Incidentally, the games in question are Dragon Quest V and Mega Man 7. Well, just the former now. Apparently a game exclusively geared towards very young children isn't gonna have any kanji whatsoever. Made telling where actual words and grammar begin and end more then a little difficult. A shame, since very little dialogue as it is but I could already tell that even in the 90s the dialogue was "punched up" in places.

Nevertheless, thanks for clarifying. Seems (very much somewhat) in line with what I interpreted.

>>16931330

Try playing the Dragon quest V remake on the PS2. Aside from being the best version (in my opinion), you'll have your kanji and the OST is orchestrated.

If you play any other Dragon quest as well, especially the DS ones, and compare them to the localized versions, you'll be glad you're learning japanese, trust me.

>>16931334

I should've been more clear. The version of Dragon Quest V I'm playing (SNES) has smatterings of kanji here and there (just not in the menus and item names). I was referring to Mega Man 7 being a little hard to parse. Also, at the expense of revealing a potentially shit learning method, I'm already doing comparisons. Just not to the DS version (strange considering I actually own that one). I take notes on what I think is being said based on the words I look up and the grammar I know and at some vague threshold, I check out a longplay of a fan translated playthrough to compare and contrast. Granted, said playthrough dates back to 2011 and the fan translation might be even older still. I notice it makes no mention of an adventure log and the guard in front of the cave in the first town has some kind of varying aloofness. Japanese version I took him saying he'll pretend not to see anything if I go in anyway, whereas the fan translation says "don't say I didn't warn you".

Granted, there's some stuff I still can't make heads or tails of. Only big con to this method of applied learning is that I risk neglecting Anki altogether.