/sw/ - Star Wars

According to Shadows of the Empire (which is a relatively early and pretty major EU work) Luke found the details for creating synthetic crystals among Obi-Wan's stuff.

>>8619

>The synthetic crystals have the color of "creator's aura"

Interesting, I guess that ties in to what I read about the Sith channeling their hate into the crystal forge. Only makes sense that the reverse is true as well. What are the "auras," incidentally? What to green and blue represent? What about purple and yellow?

>>8635

Isn't purple the color for the Arbiter of the order? And that's why Mace Windu had one? I remember some Star Wars Insider magazine explaining that, it was before Yoda was seen with Green for Counselor.

>>8636

>Isn't purple the color for the Arbiter of the order? And that's why Mace Windu had one?

I thought he got the purple crystals as a reward from some obscure species that he helped out.

>>8636

That lore might just be a reference to Kotor 1's Jedi class system where guardians start with a blue crystal, consulars start with a green crystal and sentinels start with a yellow crystal. By the time of the prequels it's safe to assume that the colors are chosen by the Jedi or the other way around in Disney's canon rather than being connected to any specific training style.

>>8619

The special caves were either destroyed or heavily guarded by the Empire, as crystals capable of being used in lighsabers were banned completely throughout the galaxy by order of the Emperor. Only those the Emperor had under his thumb or the thumbs of his subordinates were allowed access to lightsabers legally.

>>8637

I thought he got the purple lightsaber because SLJ requested it

>>8680

For behind the scenes yes that's the reason. In canon or at least with old EU I think it was because he received it from some aliens like >>8637 said.

>>8616

They should add that scene.

>>8657

disney canon's bullshit is that the color of the saber is based on a force user's connection to the force, with blue being the purest. red is unnatural and a corruption of it. all that stuff about ranks within the order went out the window.

>>8966

With sith lightsabers it's even worse. Instead of using artificial crystals they have to take kyber crystals form a jedi's lightsaber and bleed it by using the darkside to turn it red and corrupt it.

>>9023

>Rey Granger

>Kylo Malfoy

Shit’s starting to make sense…

HEH

>>8616

>>8962

They really should- having never actually seen that scene I quite like seeing lightsabers worked on. The other part of me though hopes disney forgets the OT exists so they don't "rework" it.

>>9033

>The other part of me though hopes disney forgets the OT exists so they don't "rework" it.

Isn't that what TFA was?

>>9023

>Remember when Adi Gallia used to be depicted with a red lightsaber?

The explanation given, he didn't care red was used by a forgotten group that hadn't been seen in millennium, holds up pretty well though.

>The gap between the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones was a really weird time for Star Wars writers.

Remember the time an entire star system was jaunted forward in time so a role playing league could cover Attack of the Clones without everyone making a new character?

>>9034

I mean it had the same plot.. but I'm hoping they don't remake the ACTUAL OT (with obi-wan, luke, vader, etc.) with all the new poz.

So, to summarize:

>Jedi use natural crystals because hippies, but used synths later out of necessity

>Sith use synths exclusively

>All red crystals are synth crystals but not all synth crystals are red, they can be pretty much any color.

>blade color in the old JO used to be based on what role you took in the temple, but by the fall of the Republic it was personal preference

>nucanon is and always will be shit

That all sound about right?

>>9048

yeah that would do it

I guess this is the thread for it: anyone have experience with the model lightsaber companies? Which company would you go to for dueling sabers, most film-accurate hilt, best light/sound effects, etc. I've heard good things about Ultrasabers but they're also expensive as fuck.

>>9048

>All red crystals are synth crystals

I remember hearing that there were natural red crystals, they were just extremely rare.

>>9051

True I think Darth Vader replaced his synth crystal with a natural red one at some point before RoTJ

>>9038

>Remember the time an entire star system was jaunted forward in time so a role playing league could cover Attack of the Clones without everyone making a new character?

Please tell me more it sounds insane.

>>8616

Interesting, hadn't seen that scene before. Would be nice if a lost original starwars film turned up too, from 1983, rather than 1984.

>>9055

Culrian system from The Living Force (Which start at the time of the Phantom Menace). I believe the explanation was that it was caused by someone disturbing a Sith artifact. I don't think it was covered all that much, if at all, outside of the Living Force modules and their accompanying notes.

>>9051

Kinrath eggs produce red crystals and I think the crystal cave in KotOR had some red crystals that weren't from the eggs.

Niggers get the "Purple Drank" of lightsabers…don't question, it's canon

>>9055

Surely there's little difference in quality between a synth crystal and a natural one, so why would Vader go through the effort of replacing it? Was it just for the bragging rights of having a rare crystal?

>>9100

Maybe Vader was never truly a Sith in his heart and that was a little subtle or even subconscious rebellion.

>>9100

Natural crystals are superior. Synth crystals are a convenience and could be faulty in comparison. Sith relied on it due lack of acess to natural crystals and that many considered a lightsaber just a tool, without any special symbology or meaning. Palpatine used them just as a tool, Vader carried his all around and gave meaning to it mostly likely an unconscious remnant of his jedi past.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Synthetic_lightsaber_crystal

>>9106

>Natural crystals are superior.

Wookiepedia says otherwise, but the sources on that fact are various Sith talking about how much better they are than the Jedi, so I suppose take it with a grain of salt. Personally, the interpretation I've favored is that the Sith prefer synth crystals so that they can pump the crystals full of their anger and aggression during the forging. The process–using your own sweat and technique to craft your weapon, the physical expression of your strength–also speaks much more to Sith philosophy than finding a crystal that just popped out of a cave somewhere. As for why Vader uses one, I agree with other anons that he was trying to retain some small part of his Jedi days. He never wanted to join Sidious, after all, but to overthrow him once he had what he wanted. After he was weakened by his cybernetic overhaul post-Mustafar, he wasn't strong enough to overthrow the Emperor, and was forced to remain his apprentice.

>>9105

Force Unleashed has Vader say he wants to destroy the emperor, just not with Starkiller, as early as 2 BBY.

can a jedi use a red lightsaber and a sith use a blue/green lightsaber?

>>9158

Well yes, though they might get odd looks.

So is infrared lightsaber a stupid idea? Note: Almost all non-humans can see infrared.?

>>9161

All I know is a few of them can see in ultra-violet.

>>9161

>infrared lightsaber

The middle of a lightsaber always seems to glow white, so it'd probably just be a white lightsaber to most races.

>>9212

*meant to say humans.

>>9161

Assuming for the moment lightsabers are in fact pure light, it'd be a pretty weaksauce blade if your intent is for it to be invisible; any infrared heat source will start to glow in other parts of the spectrum, including the visible, once it gets hot enough.

>>9218

Isn't a lightsaber blade a superheated plasma suspended in a magnetic field, rather than a laser beam?

>>9224

Right, hence

>assuming

>>9328

Same goes for me, if I decide to try one out I'll let y'all know how it is.

>>9359

I have a cheap knock off saber that changes color every time you hit it and an Obi-Wan lightsaber from the EPI merch.

>>9361

I have that edgy Anakin lightsaber with an extra button that changes the blade blue or red.

>>8614

>>9359

Don't give disney any ideas.

>>9359

is this canon?

>>9367

pls kill me

>>9296

Sorry anon I don't have high caliber lightsabers like that. The only one I have was that Darth Vader red lightsaber I got as a kid when Revenge of the Sith came out.

Wanna talk about Lightsaber combat?

>>9367

When the next movie decides to reveal Mary Sue as a lesbian and discards the evil blue patriarchysaber and gets xer own's LGBTQP+saber.

>>9421

Everything after the first game was a mistake, lore and writing wise. II had fun gameplay, but story was shit.

>>8637

guys, there's no lore about mace's light saber. he got purple because they asked samuel jackson what colour he wanted and he said "give me fucking purple!"

>>9420

Make the handle a big black dildo and you'll probably be closer to what they want to do then anyone would want to believe.

>>9431

Those two facts are not mutually exclusive.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mace_Windu%27s_lightsaber/Legends

>>9099

He got purple because he wanted to stand out the the larger battle scene. Lucas is a cuck so he let the nog have it

>>9520

>cuck

You laugh, but at one point poor George actually was a cuckhold. By a guy who worked on that nice ceiling in Skywalker Ranch's library, no less.

>>9533

When a sterile man wants to have children, that happens. I can't really laugh at the poor guy for that.

>>8635

>>9404

I'm surprised so much of this thread went by without talking about it, so let's get that discussion started. This is a description of my opinion of each style.

>Form I (Shii-Cho)

Mostly just flailing around like a tard. Has the benefit of not overcommitting, but lacks both fluidity and any real method of keeping the pressure on an enemy. Is largely only justified to keep masses of melee enemies away, like rabid Sith, anti-Jedi protesters or angry fans mad because you fucked up their favorite movies. Can be made viable with an inordinate amount of training, but you're better off using that training time on a form that'll get you in fighting shape faster, and it'll still fail against master duelists and the most powerful Force users. Notable users: Plo Koon, TR8-TOR, Kathleen Kennedy

>Form II (Makashi)

Fencing. Relies mostly on thrusting attacks despite the lightsaber having a literally infinite amount of cutting edges. Not as stupid as that makes it sound considering that keeping your distance from your opponent is a good idea if they have a sword made of fucking laser beams, but fails against blasters. Notable users: Count Dooku, who's only notable because he uses it when most people are using blasters.

>Form III (Soresu)

Parry everything and rely on your opponent being stupid (or blinded by rage over your order's buttfuck retarded policies on marriage), so they'll follow you into a fucking lava river. There are some good lessons to take from Soresu, such as the fact that melee attacks should be short and quick, but most of what we see Soresu users doing is too defensive. The best way to win a battle is to end it quickly. Notable users: Obi-Wan Kenobi…and pretty much no one else because nobody at Lucasfilm/Disney knows enough about fighting to make a faster, more intense version of it.

>Form IV (Ataru)

Final Metal Gear Fantasy Wars: Revengeance. Probably the most useless form as far as real-life martial arts are concerned. Attempts to substitute acrobatics for developed bladework to no real effect. Is a contradiction because the only reason to use a sword against someone with a gun is if you're in a confined space, but Ataru's acrobatics can only be done in spacious areas. Notable users: Yoda, because he's the only one in Star Wars who can get away with this on account of being two feet tall and thus being hard to hit and having more space to move around in compared to others. Turns out size actually does matter after all.

>Form V (Shien & Djem So)

You should take big, overly committed swings because sword fighting is literally baseball. Generated from watching too many samurai movies. This tactic can work for physically strong fighters because they can use their great strength to batter through an opponent's defenses, but don't count on it against skilled fighters. Includes two variants, Shien and Djem So. Shien is a bit more defensive and doesn't feature as many power attacks, while Djem So is the most aggressive form outside of Form VII. Shien is closer to what a real martial artist would consider reasonable, unless you have a heavy mace. Notable users: Most of the main characters, including Luke and Anakin, who almost all use the Djem So variant, as does Kyle Katarn, once the old 7-form system was rediscovered in the New Republic era. Also, everyone in Jedi Academy who used the red stance because it's nearly identical to Form V.

>Form VI (Niman)

The lightsaber form for people who suck at lightsaber fighting. Everyone at the Battle of Geonosis who practiced this form died because it couldn't protect them against walking tin cans. Only works if you're strong in the Force, because this is all about using your lightsaber as a supplement for your Force powers (and/or possibly a gun), which is why Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig, the foremost specialist in it (who got rekt by Anakin during the attack on the Jedi Temple) said it takes 10 years of training to master. Anyone who masters this form will be a master of the Force, so this obviously doesn't lend itself to real combat. Notable users: Nobody who's still alive.

>Form VII (Juyo & Vaapad)

The ultimate lightsaber form which can only be used by those who've developed high level skills in all other forms. It's described as having disconnected staccato movements, which makes it like a highly developed version of Form I, but it's much more capable of aggression because its Vaapad variant uses the Force heavily to augment the speed and strength of the user's attacks. Notable users: Mace Windu, Darth Maul, the Tasmanian Devil

Below is what I think of the saber variants, because this post is too long.

>>9609 cont.

>Double-bladed saber

Best way to chop yourself in half. Ray Park was allowed by George Lucas to lengthen his lightsaber's hilt when he was playing Darth Maul for exactly this reason. It'd be better as a double-ended lightsaber spear. Notable users: Darth Maul, Bastila Shan

>Lightsaber pike

In real life, spears were the most common weapons on ancient battlefields because of their inexpensive cost, ease of training and the fact that they do well in formation. By contrast, we don't see many of these in Star Wars because lightsaber pikes must be made of lightsaber-resistant materials to avoid having a regular lightsaber user chop them up, and those materials are rare and expensive. Notable users: Senya Tirall, Imperial Shadow Guards, and hardly anyone else because of the expense of building one. Definitely a viable choice, though.

>Multiple lightsabers

Not as cool as it looks at first. Wielding a weapon in each hand means you can't give either one as much leverage. However, it's okay if you rely on speed and agility to produce a furious storm of lightsaber swings, or if you have four +3 Lightsaber Crystals of Big Dickness and don't have any other place to put them. Of course, you can always get cyborg arms and enhance this beyond what most people are capable of doing with it. Notable users: General Grievous, Ahsoka Tano, Boc Aseca, possibly Jaden Korr, Anakin (for an example of how not to do it)

>Lightsaber whip

How this doesn't constantly destroy everything around it is a mystery. That's probably why there are only two people in Star Wars who ever used them, those being Githany and Lumiya. Even more hazardous to the user than the double-bladed lightsaber. Not recommended.

>Curved-hilt lightsaber

Basically only useful for Form II users like Dooku. It's one of the least exotic lightsaber variants, but that also means it falls well within the parameters of the accepted styles. Notable users: See above.

>Lightsaber gunblade

Not as horrible as it sounds because a lightsaber's blade has no mass and thus the ergonomic problems of metal gunblades aren't present. Notable users: Nobody I give a shit about because fuck Disney.

>Helicopter lightsaber

If you even think about using this, you should kill yourself, you stupid faggot.

The overall best form is probably Shien. It combines the effective parries and quick attacks of Soresu with the combo potential of Ataru, while adding some power of its own. I'd love to do a commentary on hand-to-hand fighting arts like Echani and Teras Kasi, but we aren't told enough about how they work to make any real judgments, because the focus of the franchise is on lightsaber fighting. You also might consider using a regular melee weapon made of lightsaber-resistant materials, which has the benefit of not being a bright shiny laser beam that gives away your position.

>>9610

Bane used a curved hilt lightsaber. It was useful outside makashi.

>>9612

You can use any variant with any form, but it's not always going to work well. In real swordplay you'd never use a curved hilt sword for anything but fencing.

I feel rogue one gave a good explanation as to what Happened to all the natural Khyber crystals being that they were used to make the death star superlaser If that was an explanation in the true canon I'd be ok with it I also always had a head canon before I discovered the synth crystal origin that Luke found qui-gons saber tuned after years of never being used and gutted it for parts for his own saber (including the crystal)

>>9050

>Best dueling:

ultra sabers

>Most accurate:

that varies from place to place but I'd go for Vader vault/ parkssabers but don't go to parks expecting sound

> Best looking:

the guy doesn't sell them but he has detailed blogs on how he made them check out slothfurnace the fuckers are gorgeous

> Best sounding:

obsidian soundboards

>>9655

Parks saber's website is fucked. No option to pick blade color and the interface stalls when you try to buy anything. Some forum posts are also implying the owner isn't responding to emails. Is ded?

>>9616

Swords have weight, lightsabers don't besides the hilt/emitter itself.

>>9677

Is there an advantage to artificially weighting the hilt to give it a more sword-like feel?

>>9659

huh last time i went to parks it was perfectly ok wonder if he just btfo'd

>>9679

Beats me. But in any case the weight distribution would still be different from a sword, isn't?

>>9696

Yes, I know that. Please show me where I said that image was canon.

>>9699

You asked for a "canon lightsaber that resembles a goddamn sword" Then, you posted a bunch of non-canon sabers that looked nothing like swords. The implication is that you're looking for alternatives to the picture that you posted, although you did not explicitly say as much.

>>9703

>The implication is that you're looking for alternatives to the picture that you posted, although you did not explicitly say as much.

That is true. In your own words, no part of that implication ever said the image was canon.

I only used the word "canon" so you wouldn't reply with "yes, my OC that I made up three seconds ago that only exists in my head :^)", I did not expect you to be so autistic you would interpret "canon" specifically as "current Disney canon".

Is there, or has there ever been, a lightsaber in any Star Wars media that is, or has ever been, officially licensed, even partially or in a limited state or legal gray area, by the copyright holder of Star Wars at the time of its release, past and present, regardless of its canon status, that resembles a goddamn sword, with exactly two quillons, a functional grip, and a big fat pommel?

>>9705

Lightfoils had guards also there was something in the lines you said in the old (read normal) canon

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crossguard_lightsaber/Legends

>>9609

>>9610

>The overall best form is probably Shien.

But that's assuming you're going against others bearing lightsabers. Soresu has a lot of advantages if you expect to fight mostly blaster-wielding opponents.

>>9610

A helicopter blade lightsaber would be useful as a throwing weapon and absolutely nothing else. Three blades would do everything that would be useful for better though.

>>9715

That actually looks kinda decent. I'm not really a fan of the usual look of the lightsabre hilts - they look very clunky and poorly designed for having been around so long. Not exactly a graceful weapon IMHO.

Don't get me started on the crossguard sabre introduced by Disney.

>>9708

Shien is capable of handling blasters too. Luke and Anakin use Djem So and don't have trouble with blasters. Luke gets shot in the hand one time in ROTJ, but he got caught off guard and wasn't in a fighting stance. Of course they did both train with Obi-Wan. Point is, you can use Soresu's blaster deflection in other forms without losing anything and without having the problems that Soresu has. Obi-Wan's Soresu lost to Count Dooku's Makashi both times they fought (discounting TCW, but he doesn't rack up any victories against Dooku there either). When he beat Darth Maul in TPM, he hadn't yet been trained in Soresu, but rather Ataru, because Qui-Gon Jinn used Ataru and taught it to Obi-Wan, and when he beat Grievous he used a blaster. He only beat Anakin, who's normally a highly effective duelist and a superior intellect in areas stretching from engineering to military tactics, because Anakin was raging so hard he wasn't thinking straight, and Ben lost the rematch. It's important to learn a few tidbits of Soresu, but it's not really worth specializing in when those tidbits can be incorporated into better styles.

>>9862

Actually this isn't too bad, except for the fact that the way you drew it makes it look like a 6-ended double dildo. The problem with real tridents and other multi-bladed polearms is that they tend to get caught on things and they have less stabbing capability because they have a wider head area and therefore can't get into gaps as easily. For lightsabers, this is much less of a problem because they cut through most things like butter.

>>9029

Well fuck.

>>9951

This could actually work as a saber design if you took it more seriously and was used in a pair. Like those retarded giant shurikens in animu.

>>9951

This is basically just the helicopter saber except even more retarded for the sake of memes. inb4 it's Kylo Ren's new saber in Episode IX. If you want something that works as a throwing weapon, maybe make a lightsaber fan with 5 emitters jutting forward at different angles in a war fan pattern and install a motor in your hilt so you can have your lightsaber spin. You could theoretically do this with real swords, but it's prohibitively heavy.

We don't see tonfa lightsabers or claw lightsabers much. You'd figure there would be more of those.

>>9677

>>>9616

iirc Bane's sword was one of the kind because the hilt itself actually had no weight

There have been some threads on /tv/ that speculated on why Force users carry lightsabers when there appear to be so many things effective against them. Even discounting cortosis, phrik, zillo beast hide, etc. you can easily get past a lightsaber with flamethrowers, disruptors and sonic weapons, and avoid having your shots deflected by using slugthrowers. You could have your bullets sent back telekinetically, but the more bullets you put downrange the harder it is to do this. My idea about this is that because blasters are the standard firearm, it's what Force users can generally expect non-Force users to have, and lightsabers are effective against them. As to why blasters are the standard, they appear to have a much higher ammunition capacity than slugthrowers, and that's how they ended up being the standard firearm in the Star Wars universe despite it being easy to trace the position of a blaster wielder through either its bright bolt or the fact that it's much more expensive to silence a blaster than to silence a slugthrower. But you'd think that more people would start creating special units to deal with Jedi, like the Empire's flame troopers, or that Jedi would start carrying guns as backup weapons in case they met someone with a weapon lightsabers aren't effective against.

Out of the entire Star Wars mythos, Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr are practically the only Jedi who do this, but there are some from other Force-based groups who have alternative ranged fighting methods. Gray Paladins use Force-augmented gunmanship, and certain people and groups specialize in telekinetically controlled throwing weapons, like the Zeison Sha discblades or Kreia's telekinetic lightsaber combat. That would be the only semi-legitimate use of the helicopter lightsaber or any of the other throwing lightsaber designs, but there are better ways to do this. It might have marginally more effectiveness against anti-lightsaber weapons than other modes of lightsaber combat, but if you have to use telekinesis constantly you're going to become fatigued sooner than somebody who's just using their lightsaber as a melee weapon or only rarely throws it, so you might as well just carry a gun. Flamethrowers that exist on present-day Earth can have ranges of 100 feet or much more, which is further away than is practical for telekinesis unless you're at cosmic levels of Force power.

>>10029

>Out of the entire Star Wars mythos, Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr are practically the only Jedi who do this

Mara Jade did it (at least in Mysteries of the Sith). X2 does it, however obscure he is.

>>10030

Yeah, that's true. The concussion rifle from the Jedi Knight games is another example of a good anti-lightsaber gun, and you'll sometimes go up against someone who has one at various times in the series, but you can just use your own guns against them, and the only time you ever fight anyone who has a lightsaber in Mysteries of the Sith is on Dromund Kaas where the dark side energy is stopping all your guns from working, which kind of defeats the whole point of the discussion. Plus, Mara Jade largely gives up blasters after becoming a Jedi, unlike Kyle. The original Jedi Knight and both games after Mysteries of the Sith allow you to use normal weapons against lightsaber-wielding opponents, but it's generally not a good idea, with some exceptions. Speedrunners often use mines to defeat Boc and Jerec at the end of JK1, but this doesn't always work against Force users. The flechette shotgun and the Imperial heavy repeater in JO/JA are good choices to beat enemies with lightsabers in single or multiplayer, but in the wider Star Wars universe very few people have those. The question is why?

The heavy repeater uses "metallic bolts" as ammo, and despite being a slugthrower, it doesn't appear to operate anything like any real-life firearm, so it's hard to gauge why it's not more common when it appears to be very effective against numerous types of opponents. If you asked /k/ about it they'd probably have an aneurysm. And of course Republic Commando brings the concussion rifle back, but there aren't any enemies with lightsabers in that game. It also includes the ACP array gun, which is effectively a shotgun particle beam which would probably be useful against lightsabers. Flechette shells for shotguns on the other hand do exist in real life, as well as buckshot in general. Flechettes and their variants are expensive, but buckshot is cheap and seems like it should show up a lot more in Star Wars. However, shotguns are prone to shorter ranges (albeit not as short as most big-budget FPS games want people to believe), even with slugs. Still, more people should have them than we see. Concussion rifles are commonly said to be pricey as well, as are disruptors (and disruptors are also banned virtually everywhere) so that explains why more people don't have them. I'm not sure about sonic blasters, but in the KotOR games they're not terribly hard to come by, and since they operate on power cells, unlike flamethrowers, you should probably see a lot more of them.

Out of every anti-Force user gun you could possibly carry, sonic blasters and the Imperial heavy repeater are the most likely to be practical general-issue weapons that can also take down Force users. Of course, you can't use sonic weapons in the vacuum of space, but infantry firefights generally aren't fought in a vacuum. The heavy repeater appears to have recoil like a real gun, which would be a problem outside of a planet's gravity well, but again, it's not known how it works. It may also be that blasters are used because they're more accurate, but in the Empire's case their E-11s appear to be made by the lowest bidder. If every Imperial rifle was the award rifle from Battlefront, this would be much less mysterious.

>>10031

>The question is why?

The Flechette gun is one of many things that originated in West End Games' D6 Star Wars. The model is directly based on a picture from Gundark's Fantastic Technology which is a New Republic era splatbook. Though the intro to that book mentions anything not explicitly marked can be found in the Rebellion era and the description for that item mentions rebels using it, it's entirely plausible (D6 was published before the prequels were known about and Lucas didn't allow anything but Tales of the Jedi set more than a couple of years before New Hope during that era) that it simply wasn't invented till the fall of the Republic and thus had no lightsaber users to use it on.

I've read some stories about scientists and engineers theorizing that energy weapons would be used onboard spaceships or space stations specifically because they're generally thought to be less destructive than projectile weapons, and therefore less likely to damage the ship's internal systems. But if that was the reasoning, nobody would carry lightsabers on ships because they can do more damage to a ship than almost anything else a single person can carry, and blaster bolts appear to be at least as damaging as bullets. Lasers are invisible and silent, rendering it difficult for a lightsaber to block them, not to mention actually traveling at lightspeed, so maybe troops should carry guns that shoot realistic lasers instead of whatever blaster bolts are supposed to be. Of course, Jedi could always start wearing armor to counteract this. A good set of light armor would allow them to deal with that and still have enough freedom of movement to properly use a lightsaber.

>>10032

>that it simply wasn't invented till the fall of the Republic and thus had no lightsaber users to use it on.

That's very unlikely considering that they exist in real life currently. They're just impractically expensive.

>>10031

>>10032

In-fact, the missile launcher, heavy repeater, and ion carbine are all from WEG stuff.

>>10033

I'm actually kinda partial to the idea that not everything invented after 1977 exists in the GFFA.

>>10034

>I'm actually kinda partial to the idea that not everything invented after 1977 exists in the GFFA.

Flechettes were actually first experimented with back in the 70s as projectiles for underwater rifles, and galactic civilization in Star Wars has existed for over 20,000 years. They've had so much time they should have invented everything anyone can possibly invent.

The original heavy repeater from DF/JK1/MotS seems like it would be the best gun to beat both Jedi and regular troops. It shoots what are essentially mini-blaster bolts at an incredible rate, and its secondary fire is a shotgun-like blast. It's hard to beat Dark Jedi with any blaster in JK1, but out of all your blasters the heavy repeater is the best choice for that. Give it the power to charge its shots like the Bryar pistol, or add the other heavy repeater's energy grenades to it (which for some reason draw from metallic bolt ammo despite being an energy weapon) and you have something that can take down infantry, vehicles and Force users in all sorts of situations, except maybe underwater, but all guns have dramatically diminished effects underwater except for sonic blasters, and you could always make a combination gun with a sonic blaster and a regular blaster melded together. That would be more expensive than using just those weapons by themselves, but probably still cheaper than outfitting special units with flamethrowers or concussion rifles. We could probably have an entire thread about the various Jedi hunters. There's definitely enough lore to go along with it, but that's not for this thread.

Some other things to consider: Flechettes were abandoned as a primary firearm projectile because their long, narrow design made them more prone to inaccuracy on land due to wind. There are some variants such as SCMITR that are a bit better about this, though, so we can assume metallic bolts are a lot like those, and SW technology should be able to produce them without a problem. There's also the possibility of making the JO/JA slugthrower heavy repeater a recoilless design to correct the problem with recoil in space, but assuming it operates like a real-life firearm, making it recoilless would mean allowing the propellant gases to escape the gun out the back (or to the top/bottom/sides), lowering the pressure inside the barrel and reducing the projectile's speed and power, not to mention potentially spewing hot gas into the user's face. Then again, for all we know, it could be a railgun, or a souped-up air gun, or a gun that uses repulsor beams to fire projectiles. Repulsor beams are indigenous to highly advanced sci-fi settings, and that method may even be able to be used in a recoilless design, but it'd cost a pretty penny to make a repulsor small enough for that. It'd most likely need an external power source, and the repeater uses no battery power along with all other guns, so the only other possibility is if the power source is in the cartridge itself.

You could make a gun that has the best of all worlds with these technologies, but you run the risk of the guns getting pulled away or chopped to bits by Jedi. You want to stop that? Spend even more of the taxpayers' credits making your gun out of phrik and mounting them on something irremovable without specialized tools. If you're going to go to all this trouble, you might as well just start the Dark Trooper Project back up. The technical issues with power armor can be resolved easily with Star Wars technology, so there was never a real reason to cancel it in the first place, except that Palpy was mad that his factory ship heading up the project got blown up by one guy who did it for the low, low price of sex with a space Asian.

Maybe the cost of the technology would come down with more investment in it, but political realities may stop that from happening, as they have with so many pieces of military technology in real life. A big part of the reason there aren't more anti-Force user guns out there is probably that there's not enough gain from building them for any of the political factions concerned. For most of the galaxy's history, you had Force users dealing with other Force users, and normal troops rarely got involved except when they had overwhelming numbers. Then the Empire came along, and the Jedi were supposed to have been destroyed, so they can't really justify spending money to build this anti-Jedi projectile gun when they're almost always going to be fighting blaster users. The Imperial military-industrial complex is influential, but unlike the military-industrial complex in real life, they're ultimately subservient to the desires of a guy who can literally shoot lightning out of his fingertips, so there's a limit to how much pork barrel spending will be allowed because the Emperor is actually interested in having working military technology which will defeat the people they're fighting right at the moment, who for the most part are non-Force using Rebels. Furthermore, the Emperor wouldn't want anti-Force user technologies to be developed because they might be used against him. This applies to Force users in general. Then the New Republic came along, and they had the Jedi on their side, so it went back to the old status quo of relying on them to deal with enemy Force users. However, it seems that the large amount of anti-Jedi sentiment in the waning years of the Old Republic, and again in the Legacy era, should have led to a rise in the popularity of these weapons.

tl;dr on anti-lightsaber ranged weapons:

>Flamethrower

Cumbersome, uses different ammunition thus complicating logistics, relatively short range for a ranged weapon, can easily light things on fire that you didn't intend including yourself. Flamethrowers also generate bad press for the painful deaths they inflict, if you care about that.

>Concussion rifle

Very expensive. Can have its shots pushed back by enemy Force users (though this is difficult) and can kill many of your own troops this way.

>Explosives

Force pushed away, possibly back towards you. Also more expensive than guns, and you need those explosives to deal with vehicles or masses of troops.

>Sonic blasters

Can't be used in space, but are more powerful than standard weapons underwater. Neutral in other settings. If you really need a gun you can shoot in space, pass this up, but it's otherwise a good pick.

>Imperial energy heavy repeater

Can be deflected and even returned by a lightsaber, but bolts are minimally damaging, so your armor should be able to handle it if this happens, but they can wear armor too. Still a good choice for giving masses of regular troops something to fight Force users with due to its massive fire rate, and can also handle the enemy's regular troops. Could be improved as well.

>Imperial slugthrower heavy repeater

Lower ammo capacity than blasters, but otherwise a good choice in general. Good candidate for being improved over the standard version, but at high cost.

>Shotgun (flechette or standard)

Shorter range and lower fire rate than blaster rifles.

>Disruptors

Creates bad PR for the same reason as flamethrowers and is illegal almost everywhere for this reason as well. Also none too cheap.

Political and economic factors stop some of the more generally viable of these weapons from being more widespread, but if an opportunity and a reason were presented, the GFFA would be full of those right quick.

>>10033

I thought blaster bolts were just superheated gas that became plasma?

>>10041

There's been disagreement about exactly what they are. People who said they're not plasma cited the fact that plasma bolts are inherently unstable due to their high temperatures making them want to expand rapidly until they decohere at very short ranges, and blaster bolts can have very long ranges. But there was a news story a few years back where they figured out how to make plasma bolts behave much better by spinning them, analogous to the way rifling spins a bullet. I can't remember where the story was, though. Spinning the plasma strengthens the electromagnetic field holding it together and enables a plasma bolt to travel for longer distances. Similar mechanisms are used to confine superheated plasma in fusion reactors. It's also notable that blasters can sometimes cause electrical equipment to malfunction, like when Luke's speeder got hit at the Battle of Hoth and R2 took a blaster hit from a stormtrooper on Endor. This fits with what highly ionized gas could do. Blasts from weapons explicitly described as being plasma weapons often behave differently from blasters, though.

>>10066

Plasma makes the most sense when taken in conjunction with lightsabers–the fact that sabers can deflect blaster bolts can be attributed to plasma's magnetic properties.

>>10067

Lightsabers aren't plasma though, they're fucking magic nigga I ain't gotta explain shit. Their heat would plasmolyze the air inside the beam, but nothing in any source material mentions an opposing electromagnetic field being generated by the lightsaber.

>>10070

Well the same's true for blaster bolts; it's Tibanna Gas I don't gotta explain shit. But some /sw/ fans like me just can't put their autism to rest and have to find some real-world analogue for all the space magic technology. And for blasters/lightsabers, plasma makes the most sense.

>>10066

According to the wookipeedia, they are basically plasma rods containted in magnetic field.

>The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape.

>The typical lightsaber hilt consisted of a metal cylinder between twenty-four and thirty centimeters in length.[4] However, the size of individuals hilts varied drastically, as the weapon was tailored to the creator's specific needs and preferences. The hilt had a pommel cap at the bottom which sometimes held a backup power cell. The lightsaber mechanisms were contained within the hilt. High levels of energy generated by a high-output Diatium power cell was unleashed through a series of focusing lenses and energizers that converted the energy into plasma.[37] The plasma was projected through a set of lightsaber crystals that lent the blade its properties and allowed for the adjustment of blade length and power output. The ideal number of crystals was three, though only one was required.[4] A power insulator was installed on the hilt to protect the wielder from any energy discharges.[38

>Once focused by the crystals, the plasma was sent through a series of field energizers and modulation circuitry within the emitter matrix that further focused it, making it into a coherent beam of energy that was projected from the blade emitter.[40] The blade typically extended about a meter before being arced by the blade containment field back to a negatively charged fissure ringing the emitter, where it was channeled back to the power cell by a superconductor, completing the circuit. This containment field also caused the blades to make contact with other lightsabers blades without passing through like other forms of energy. This trait is seen when lightsaber wielders can block and parry other lightsaber blades.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber/Legends

>>10082

Passing plasma through a crystal doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering that plasma has nonzero rest mass, but eh. It's fucking magic.

>>10139

That seems like bad wording in the technobabble. It would make more sense for it to be PURE ENERGY up until it leaves the emitter, at which point it ionizes the atmosphere to get plasma for the blade.

>>9032

Surprisingly good

How many times have we seen a named character with no Force powers try to take on a named character who has them? What's their record like? Doesn't look too good to me. As far as I know, these are the only times any such fight has ended in a win for the non-Force-powered side.

>Jango Fett vs Komari Vosa

Jango wins the fight, marking a major feather in his cap. Still, it's a tough battle for him, and Komari Vosa obviously wasn't as strong as Mace Windu.

>Cad Bane vs Ahsoka Tano

Bane managed to take Tano hostage by employing his big guy powers, and it was extremely painful for her and Anakin. Ahsoka was very inexperienced at the time though.

I'm making a lot of exclusions to get it down to only two fights. I'm excluding Jedi Knight 1, KotOR 1/2 and Battlefront games, where it's possible to beat named enemy Force users without using lightsabers or Force powers, because the characters you play as are Force-sensitive regardless of your weapon choices, or in the case of Battlefront the normal troops you play as massively outnumber the Force users. I'm also discounting Grievous because he uses lightsabers himself. Even further, I'm discounting instances where the objectives of one of the parties wasn't to actually kill the other, such as when Jango fought Obi-Wan on Kamino, where Jango was just trying to escape, or Kyle Katarn's first fight against Desann, where Desann was trying to get him to reveal the location of the Valley of the Jedi and won regardless, although Kyle had no anti-Force user weapons at the time. A fourth exclusion is in cases where a named Forceless character fought a Force user while being backed up by Force users. Obviously the initial question excludes cases where nameless or named Jedi were killed by hordes of generally nameless infantry, such as the Mandalorian Wars or Order 66. So basically, the only people who've ever been able to pull this off are bounty hunters. It'd be interesting to see Jedi going against Dark Troopers with their lightsabers, but if they were smart they'd just use guns like Kyle did.

>>10223

>but if they were smart they'd just use guns like Kyle did.

I'm pretty sure NJO Jedi would occasionally use blasters when necessary. When Luke started things back up again he explicitly changed a few of the policies to be more utilitarian over traditional. He and Ben also used blasters a few times during the Fate of the Jedi series I get the impression that YV and post-YV content isn't well-appreciated around here, fuck that. Legacy of the Force and FotJ were my first exposures to the EU and I've got a soft spot for them because of that.

>>10224

we prefer the EU to disney's shit, but we don't pretend it's necessarily good or great

>>10223

i get what you're saying, but you have to remember that apart from having the ability to see into the future and have enhanced senses, jedi would be just as defenseless as two gunners fighting each other. even then, they can't block literally every shot, especially when a barrage is being fired on them.

>>10225

It just makes you wonder why a single lightsaber was ever standard in the Jedi Order. Even assuming that more Jedi didn't start carrying guns or integrating guns into their lightsabers, multiple sabers should be much more common because you can use one of them as a throwing weapon to deal with people who brought an anti-lightsaber weapon, while keeping the other in your hands. Then again the Jedi have sometimes been shown being incredibly incompetent in general. Granted the Jedi didn't often go up against weapons that are good at getting past a lightsaber, but it's better to be prepared.

>>10223

Star Wars: Bounty Hunter has a dark Jedi as the final boss. Jango canonically wins and is selected as the clone daddy because of it.

>>10232

The Jedi of that era were mostly glorified diplomats. They never fought anything more than the odd gang members with any serious frequency.

>>10223

> I'm excluding Jedi Knight 1, KotOR 1/2 and Battlefront games, where it's possible to beat named enemy Force users without using lightsabers or Force powers, because the characters you play as are Force-sensitive regardless of your weapon choices, or in the case of Battlefront the normal troops you play as massively outnumber the Force users.

This is a non-sequitur to the thread, but what I think is really interesting is how in Movie Battles 2 you've got the balance set up such that all the characters fight virtually the same as they do in the series - with the exception nobody's forced to fight as dumb as they do in the series. Non-force users fighting Jedi will do things like using careful movement and positioning to keep a Jedi from getting close and to limit how hard a Jedi's force powers will hit them, spreading out to force a Jedi to divide his attention between them and their comrades, laying down suppressive fire to wear down a Jedi's guard, and ducking and weaving between a Jedi's attacks in the worst case scenario of a Jedi getting into attacking distance.

>>10237

>Star Wars: Bounty Hunter has a dark Jedi as the final boss.

That Dark Jedi is Komari Vosa.

There are a couple weapons left out of >>9609 and >>9610, and a couple of mistakes. Kit Fisto is the Form I master, not Plo Koon. It also doesn't cover lightclaws or light-tonfas, but those are hardly worth mentioning because they suck at dealing with blasters on account of their odd grip rendering deflection movements difficult. There are some lacking details about the variant weapons as well, such as which forms they tended to be used with.

Aside from the previously mentioned Form II's use of curved-hilt lightsabers, Darth Bane used one with Form V as >>9612 says, though curved-hilt can be used with any style. They're not subject to the weight balance of a real fencing weapon, so much more can be done with them. Double sabers are a bit more restrictive, but still fairly versatile. The only styles that really clash with double sabers are Form II due to its fencing principles and Djem So due to its brute strength, but Shien is usable with double sabers, as Ahsoka does, having been taught Form V by Anakin. In particular, the reverse grip she uses with her offhand saber comes from Shien. Saberstaffs are hard to use with Form I because saberstaffs require large, sweeping movements, unlike the quick cuts of Form I, and obviously you can't fence with them as Form II does. All other styles are usable with it, though. Lightspears are hard to place in one style because they're so different from other lightsaber variants. They can keep enemies away very well with long thrusts, giving them strong defense and aspects of all the first three forms. Form IV could be used with them, but you'll have the same problems you would with Form IV in general. Form V is the only known style to be associated with lightspears, as Kazdan Paratus uses one with Shien in The Force Unleashed. It's not known what style Senya Tirall or the Imperial Shadow Guards use, but a lightspear is a good choice for Shien because Shien is supposed to fail against a single opponent, whereas thrusting attacks and long reach in general are generally best against a single opponent, so a lightspear can compensate for Shien's failings. There isn't really a good reason given as to why Shien would fail in duels, though. Its reverse grip isn't mandatory.

>>10232

don't forget the jedi went a thousand years without facing a dark force user, as >>10237 said they only basically handled disputes and faced gangsters at the worst.

>>10245

You mean "Sith", there was plenty or dark/fallen Jedi around that millennia.

>>10244

I think lightspears should have their own separate style, much like double sabers do with Jar'Kai. The 7-form system is too specific to swordplay to be applied to lances, because spear fighting has traits of all 7 forms. Anyone else want to help build this, or any other weapon-specific form? Or even another regular lightsaber form you think should exist.

On that note, I've seen some videos of people apparently running real-life lightsaber academies, for what purpose I have no idea because lightsabers aren't (yet) a real weapon. Is it just the logical conclusion of LARPing? Is anyone learning anything useful from them? Why would anyone do this?

>>10311

It's just LARPing, I would assume; academies for fencing done with prop sabers that Ultrasabers and similar manufacture. Since "real" lightsabers have a blade that's essentially weightless, regular combat manuals wouldn't have much use because they don't take this into account. If lightsabers suddenly became real these fuckers wouldn't be much better at handling them than anyone else.

>>10312

You could potentially make lightsaber props out of some very light materials and get something that, while not quite having a weightless blade, will come close enough. I don't know if any of the people who make replica lightsabers have done that, though. This is part of the reason that making a lightlance fighting style would be achievable. In a lightlance, the weight balance is going to be nearly identical to a real spear because most of the weight is in the shaft, so quite a few moves from real spear arts would be usable. The task is mainly to determine where the differences lie.

>>10313

To the best of my knowledge most "combat" prop blades are made of a thick polycarbonate tubing. With some back-of-the-envelope calculations I'd put the weight of the blade itself at just under two pounds.

>This is part of the reason that making a lightlance fighting style would be achievable. In a lightlance, the weight balance is going to be nearly identical to a real spear because most of the weight is in the shaft, so quite a few moves from real spear arts would be usable. The task is mainly to determine where the differences lie.

I'd say that the biggest difference lies in a lightlance's blade having a perfect cutting edge from every angle. So it would have all the slashing potential of a pollaxe without the added weight at the head. I don't really know shit about HEMA, so take my words words with a grain of salt, but I could see this as manifesting with a lot more wide, sweeping gestures than a regular spear would permit, with the intent of keeping the enemy at the edge of your reach.

>>10315

Wookieepedia claims that a lightlance is handled much like a saberstaff. There are a number of problems with that statement, mostly the weight distribution and the lack of a second blade allowing many maneuvers a saberstaff won't, but also disallowing others because of the shaft's greater length. Still, the forms we usually see saberstaffs being used with will have the most to contribute to a lightlance style because they're both very aggressive weapon types. Saberstaffs are usually used with Forms IV, V and VII. You hardly ever see anyone with them who uses I-III or VI, with Exar Kun being the only real exception as a Form VI user who was also the first Star Wars character to use a saberstaff. All those wide, sweeping gestures are what you do in Form I, and to some extent Djem So, but I don't think they're as viable with a lightlance. With a regular lightsaber, the weight of it is much less, so it's easier to get it back into position, but taking big swings is still risky. Most of the time you're going to want to keep the spearhead trained on your opponent.

>>10316

Perhaps "sweeping" is the wrong word. Better to say that, thanks to the omnidirectional cutting edge, your slash attacks actually have a snowball's chance in hell of seriously harming your opponent so you have the option of doing something with your spear besides focusing on thrusts and jabs. Like I said before I'm hardly the personal combat expert. The way I envisioned the slashing motion being used is slicing across your opponent's pass if he tries to dodge past your spear point and inside your reach; you could do this with a regular spear but not with as much effect.

>>10317

Sounds like a crosscut. Crosscuts tend to be used as followup moves after deflecting an attack.

Since anyone wanting to help create a lightspear style should be looking primarily at Ataru, Shien and Juyo, anyone who knows a lot about characters who use those styles, regardless of which weapon they use, should comment on that. This will most likely not include Djem So and definitely not Vaapad, obviously. We can exclude Niman as well because it's focused on Force use, just not to the extent of Vaapad. Out of these styles, the one best understood is undoubtedly Form V, because the main characters almost all use it and it's heavily based on my chinese cartoons with superior tamahagane folded over 9000 times to crush filthy waitu piggu doggos. The only other style based on a real sword discipline is Form II, which isn't applicable here in any but the broadest sense. Obviously anyone who has training in real martial arts is welcome to speak on it.

Out of these three, Form IV and VII are the ones I don't understand as much. Form IV may be a bit showy, but Qui-Gon's Ataru is substantially less acrobatic. Then again, it also got him killed when he fought Maul. Maybe a different choice of weapon would have changed the outcome of that fight. Anyone care to speculate on that? Looking at how Qui-Gon fights Maul in Episode I versus how Yoda fights Dooku in Episode II, it looks like two completely different styles, or at least a two-variant style like V or VII. I don't get how they managed to shoehorn the two together as one style. Form VII on the other hand is one that almost nobody understands because so few Force users have ever reached the level of expertise where they can learn it.

Probably the biggest thing to worry about with any lightspear style is blasters. Form II's fencing has the same pointy tendencies as spearmanship and it's notoriously ineffective against blasters and especially so against any of the guns tailored to fighting lightsabers. Saberstaffs don't have this problem because they have more blade length to deflect blaster bolts with and are generally used with less emphasis on thrusting. There's going to have to be at least some slashing, whirling movements because those are the only real way to beat blasters with a long weapon.

>>10320

Well as far as Saga Edition mechanics go…

Shii-Cho, for some reason, improves blocking and deflecting which you shouldn't be doing because a lightsaber pike imposes penalties on that.

Makashi is incompatible as it requires one handing.

Soresu is also a bonus to block/deflect, but at least it should actually be such.

Ataru gives dex to Damage and is mandatory if you're a Jedi Knight dependant on Dex to Hit to actually hurt anything and useless if not. It's a good choice, as dex to damage pairs well with Combat Reflexes (extra Attacks of Opportunity for high dex) which goes well with reach and it boosts Hawk-Bat Swoop (Move, hit opponent. If you know Ataru you can move after attacking too) which pairs well with reach. UNLESS you read one line ("When using a light melee weapon or a lightsaber, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.") to mean a normal lightsaber instead of the lightsaber weapon group, then they're totally incompatible.

Niman is also useless because it's just a tiny defense buff and the force powers it boosts depend on adjacent to target. If you allowed the force powers to work it would be decent: pulling a guy onto your pike and empaleing him on it is pretty cool. Niman is a prerequisite for Jar'Kai and you can blow a feat to make a lightsaber pike a double weapon, but you should just use a double-bladed one and save the feat.

Shien is yet another useless. It's focused on bonuses to deflect that a lightsaber pike takes penalties on. Djem So (which is a seperate ability in the system) is based on reacting being hit in melee and totally useless unless fighting another polearm user.

Juyo works fine. Juyo itself only gives you a reroll on your hit chance once an encounter, which is nice but not huge. The force powers it boosts (it doesn't actually boost them, it "only" stops them from being dark side powers) work pretty well, allowing you to either add die to an attack or to roll twice on too-hit. Vaapad is a seperate ability with Juyo as a requirement, (Though how the hell you get access is a big question given the only person Windu taught it to went crazy and fell into a coma after learning it.) works fine with an improved critical range (which increases the benefit of rerolling attack) and the boosted force powers let you auto-crit if you're accurate enough or move and attack an enemy as though it were flat-footed and possibly flanked.

Note: Styles aren't mutually exclusive in Saga Edition and can be used at the same time, it just eats more of your talents to learn more than one. Luke's official build as grandmaster has both Djem So and Ataru.

>>10324

I was thinking of something based on real martial arts instead of RPG mechanics, because RPG mechanics are sometimes blatantly at odds with how weapons are actually supposed to be used. I was hoping to develop a kata or two at least. That said, this stuff essentially says that for polearm users, only Ataru and Juyo are worthwhile. I suppose one way to improve blast deflection would be to use a double-ended lightsaber pike, but is there a way to do that without using a double-ender or spending a feat on a style that doesn't contribute to the build overall? Even if it's not to the level of Soresu, to be able to have at least a decent chance of deflecting blaster bolts with a polearm would be a huge plus. Also, in KotOR 2's mechanics, the only styles really worth using are Shii-Cho and Niman because they have no negatives, but the game is easy anyway as the proper build can make you an unstoppable tank, so what style you use doesn't matter.

>you can blow a feat to make a lightsaber pike a double weapon, but you should just use a double-bladed one and save the feat.

I can't think of anyone with two arms in either real life or fiction who ever used two spears at a time.

It'd be nice to have a videogame where you play as someone with a lightspear. The Force Unleashed seemed to be hinting at it when Starkiller takes one off of the recently deceased Kazdan Paratus and tries to repair it, but fails. It's like the devs were saying they thought about including that but they just couldn't be arsed, or it was too hard for them to make it work. The only games I know of where you can use one aren't even Star Wars games, but Mega Man games. In Mega Man X7 and X8, Zero gets a lightspear called the D-Glaive, and in the first Mega Man Zero he gets the Triple Rod. As X7 is the only one of these set in a 3D environment and it's often considered the worst Mega Man game, it's questionable how much you can learn from this, but it's interesting to talk about the fighting styles of characters from other stories and see which lightsaber style they're the closest to. Most video game characters who use melee weapons extensively would probably be Ataru users because it's the flashiest style and game devs need to impress the ADD kiddies, and Zero definitely jumps around enough to fit into this mold.

One benefit of doing that only really applies when you're fighting enemies with guns, as Zero usually does, because it makes you much harder to hit at long ranges and allows you to close on a gun-using enemy at an oblique angle which will be difficult for them to defend against, but an enemy with a lightsaber will be able to put up a much stronger defense against it. In an example of lightsaber style descriptions not conforming to reality, Wookieepedia oddly claims that this isn't effective against blasters or multiple opponents, when anyone who's ever actually fought multiple opponents knows that staying mobile is the key to beating them. Go to YouTube and watch some videos of street fights with one versus two, three or more, and the ones who don't get beaten to a pulp keep on the move constantly, or else find a position where it's difficult for anyone to pursue them.

Thinking about this makes me wonder if there'd be an audience for a versus battles thread because we need to know if Zero could beat up a Jedi. My guess is hell yes in most cases.

The Force Unleashed includes a third Form V variant called Sith Shien which is used by Starkiller, and by extension Soul Calibur IV also has it despite being non-canon. This may be more suitable both for a lightsaber pike and in general than standard Shien. The reasons regular Shien does poorly in duels but Starkiller wins so many duels may be explainable by the differences between standard and Sith Shien, or it could just be that Starkiller is also trained in Juyo, or a combination of the two. In Jedi Academy, Tavion uses a more aggressive fast style which is purportedly similar to Shien, perhaps also being Sith Shien. The fast style and the strong style incorporate parts of Ataru, meaning they're worth considering for a pike. Wookieepedia has no details on Sith Shien, but it may be possible to draw some conclusions about it by observing the differences between Starkiller's fighting style and how others use Shien, as well as between Tavion and both Shien users and Kyle Katarn/Jaden Korr. We can also possibly look at how the Apprentice and the other Star Wars characters do against the Soul Calibur characters, who mostly use real historical fighting styles. However, guest characters are generally banned in tournaments, lightsabers should be doing much more damage than they do in SCIV anyway, and again, SCIV isn't Star Wars canon, so anything garnered from it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Most importantly, in real swordsmanship, one of the most reliable methods a swordsman can use against a spearman is reverse grip, because it gives extra leverage to deflect the spear. This would make Shien users better at countering lightspears than any other style, which explains how Starkiller beat Kazdan Paratus and the Imperial Royal Guard members who had lightspears. Obviously this problem must be addressed to build a working specialized lightspear form, but this alone isn't enough. Starkiller also defeats several powerful opponents who use regular lightsabers, including Shaak Ti, Darth Vader and even the Emperor, although the rumor from Sam Witwer himself has it that TFU is of dubious canonicity in general, and from an in-universe perspective the whole game is one of those tall tales that gets more exaggerated with each retelling. Even if there's no variant of Shien that ends up being useful with polearms, it's vital to understand it. Know your enemy and know yourself, as Sun Tzu says.

>>10326

>I can't think of anyone with two arms in either real life or fiction who ever used two spears at a time.

"Double weapon" means beating people with both ends of the weapon. In this case smacking them with the haft, which is something real spears are used for.

>>10342

>you can blow a feat to make a lightsaber pike a double weapon, but you should just use a double-bladed one and save the feat.

The way that's worded contrasts "double weapon" with a double-ended pike, making it sound like two weapons.

Anyway, after going over some footage from The Force Unleashed and Soul Calibur IV again, it seems to me that the main difference between Jedi Shien and Sith Shien is in Sith Shien's much greater number of physical attacks, including grabs, kicks, throws, saber throws and combinations of all of the above. Except for saber throws, Jedi Shien users are almost never seen doing these things - or users of other forms, for that matter. In the movies released so far, only Darth Maul and Luke have ever used a punch or a kick in a lightsaber duel. Many of Shien's movements can be performed either with standard grip or reverse grip, but reverse grip seems to enable an easier transition into one of these techniques because you don't have to move the blade out of the way first. The Apprentice is generally considered a mid-tier character in SCIV, but this may not be reflective of his full potential due to his odd fighting style that few players are willing to try. There are two main pole weapon users in Soul Calibur, Kilik and Seung Mina, who are both below him on the tier list. Meanwhile, Yoda is at the very bottom of the tier list, while Darth Vader is quite high on it. Oddly enough, the recently announced Soul Calibur VI is introducing a character who uses a double-bladed sword, so he'll probably fight like Maul. That's something to keep an eye on.

Sith Shien would likely be best understood in terms of real martial arts by someone who has extensive training in grappling arts like judo or Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I've had martial arts training, but it's primarily in striking arts. As far as I can tell, the only part of Shien or Sith Shien which could possibly be applicable to a polearm is its seeming emphasis on deft footwork, which is coupled with the added defensive capability of the reverse grip to get in close and execute hand-to-hand moves on lightsaber-wielding opponents. Forms I-III are exclusively bladework-focused, IV has jump-work instead of footwork, and both IV and VI barely even have bladework. V and VII are the only forms which feature any notable degree of footwork. Further, the difference between Qui-Gon's Ataru and Yoda's can probably be put down to Yoda's version of the style having a more offensive emphasis, while Qui-Gon's is more defensive. This sounds somewhat counterintuitive given their character traits, with Yoda being dedicated to the Jedi way while Qui-Gon basically does whatever he wants. Still, it makes sense because of Yoda's small stature allowing him to launch attacks with little risk of being hit in return. I've done a bit of research into capoeira, the real-world martial art most closely approximating Ataru (its lack of weapon focus notwithstanding) in the past because I wondered why anyone would want to use a style that has so little economy of motion. It turns out the answer is that capoeira's dancelike ethos is effective for escape and repositioning, making it a good defensive tool, but it has a poor record when it comes to offense, and like Ataru, it can only be done in areas where there's room to maneuver. Despite Qui-Gon's loss to Maul due to the cramped conditions in the Theed Palace reactor core, his variation of Ataru is probably better overall for anyone who isn't two feet tall. For anyone besides Yoda, trying to jump on an enemy Force user's head like you're Mario isn't likely to work except maybe as a finisher.

Obviously, if you have a polearm, you're trying to avoid getting in too close, but the same footwork that can take you closer can also move you in a different direction. In TFU, Kazdan Paratus and the Imperial Royal Guards have different ways of handling footwork. Paratus has cybernetic limbs that enable him to do all sorts of weird General Grievous-type things, while the Imperial Royal Guards don't actually seem to care much about footwork because they're in such a rush to die for their glorious Emperor. Paratus seems to be much more aggressive than the Royal Guards, attacking frequently with both slashing and thrusting, while the Royal Guards are more defensive-minded, attacking mostly with quick pokes when an opportunity presents itself. This seems to go against the description of Shien, and it may be due to Paratus having more limbs than the Guards, as Grievous is also a very aggressive fighter. I think the footwork is going to be the main part of this style, because it's going to enable the proper positioning to exploit the advantages of a spear. On the subject of Shien in general, I think it's perfectly capable of winning in duels. Maybe the reason it doesn't is that, as with so many other things, the Jedi aren't teaching it properly.

By the way, what should we call this specialized lightsaber pike form? The use of dual sabers is enough of a specialized form to get the name Jar'Kai. Ideally it should sound like an existing form name while being as phallic as possible both because it's a spear form and to be maximally triggering to Tumblrinas and soyboys. I'd just name it "Feminists Go Fuck Yourselves" but that takes too long to say.

There should be more sword-and-board Jedi. Even the Gungans were able to come up with physical shields capable of blocking blaster bolts. Why don't Jedi use riot shields covered with shield generators to block lightsabers?

>>10380

If triggering SJWs is the goal, you won't have to work very hard. I could blindfold myself and throw a baseball and hit something that triggers SJWs. It could be anything and they'd be offended by it, both because they're easily offended in general and because they're particularly offended by anything that requires more talent than they have, which includes creating martial arts styles.

Well, I've been hard at work on my lightspear spergfest of Sonic OC-tier autism fighting style, and I've pulled together some ideas from a few different fighting disciplines to make what I think is a coherent framework to build further development on, if anyone's actually interested. This is mostly just the philosophy of the style, though. When I can find some time, I'll talk about how I theorize the body mechanics of specific techniques to work and maybe attempt to develop a basic kata.

First of all, lightsaber pike users should seriously consider using a standard-sized lightsaber blade instead of the short blade most lightspear users are depicted with, as it gives no weight penalty and aids in poking and saber throws, as well as giving some much-needed help with blaster deflection. Even if you have to shorten the shaft a bit to avoid slashing up the floor, there are major benefits from having a standard-sized blade. This would blur the line between a pike and a long-handle lightsaber by creating a nagamaki-like variant. It should be stressed that a pike and a long-handle aren't the same; Gorc from the first Jedi Knight has a long-handled (and long-bladed) lightsaber because he's huge, and some of the player-selectable non-saberstaff hilts in Jedi Academy are very long, but those aren't polearms by any means. Does the RPG make any provisions for standard-sized blades on a lightspear? And even if you use a standard-sized blade on a standard-sized shaft, the maintenance droids will fix the floor anyway, and you gain the ability to perform many low attacks from a long range, which will be very hard for a standard lightsaber to defend against. The style will be doable with any type of pike, though.

Second, we need to look at what we're taking from each existing lightsaber style. Our use of Juyo will be somewhat limited because as demonstrated by Maul, Galen Marek and optionally the Exile, its bladework is too much for a spearfighter to replicate, but its footwork and general strategy should still be taken into account. Other bladework-focused styles like Soresu or Makashi were already ruled out for other reasons, namely a lack of strong offense. However, upon further reflection, I've seen something I didn't see before, which is exactly how Shien's bladework can be done with a spear, and how Shien is unique in this regard, or nearly so. This will be elaborated on later, but for now it's enough that you remember that both Galen Marek and Kazdan Paratus have Shien training. So what we're left with is a style made of the positioning strategies of Ataru, Juyo's powerful flurry of attacks and the bladework of Shien with a bit more attention paid to thrusting, because Makashi isn't the only style you can stab with. A lightspear fighter should be relentless on the offensive, and this combination will allow that.

>>10421 cont.

Third, we incorporate the idea of simultaneous attack and defense from kung fu. This is important in general, but it's also a concept we need because of the styles a spear is restricted to. A spear already does this by its very nature, but if not properly utilized, it'll fail. To put this into practice, we need to be mindful of the transitions between one technique and another. All fighting styles are at least partly based on this, but you can see varying levels of focus on it from one style to the next, whether you're talking about a real martial art or something constructed for a fantasy world. In lightsaber combat, we can see that Shii-Cho puts no emphasis on this, and Soresu, although employing the concept for its defense, doesn't really chain attacks together for the simple reason that Soresu hardly ever actually attacks, which is where Soresu differs from the New Jedi Order's fast style. Ataru is a hit-and-run style that has an attack followed by a repositioning followed by another attack, and Wookieepedia says that Ataru users are advised to withdraw if they can't win quickly. Makashi and Djem So are able to chain attacks to some extent, but neither one really makes a big deal about it. Makashi is about countering bladework through precision maneuvers, and Djem So is a power style, so the idea there is that you beat down the opponent's defenses quickly so chaining attacks becomes unnecessary. Juyo, by contrast, opts for launching so many attacks that even if they don't all hit, the defender is overwhelmed by their number and one will eventually get through. By doing this, you also defend yourself because the opponent is too busy trying to deflect your attacks to launch any of their own. Saberstaffs are naturally good at this, which is why you see Form VII masters use them more often than others. If Makashi is a sniper rifle and Djem So is a rocket launcher, Juyo is a machine gun, and machine guns can lay down suppressive fire, which is something sniper rifles and rocket launchers can't do. Kazdan Paratus actually does a decent job of demonstrating this despite practicing Shien, but the lightspear technique he shows could be made even more aggressive to bring it into the realm of Juyo, and this can be done by paying attention to the footwork. The footwork is going to govern all of the transitions you can do, which are all-important to the style. You should be attacking and moving in unison to maintain control of the situation, and if your footwork isn't correct, your rhythm will be interrupted. Exactly how these tactics are going to work will be described in a later post.

BTW the best Sonic character is Knuckles because he doesn't chuckle and he's friendly to the people of Uganda. Now I'm going to research further by consulting the valuable reference, The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force & Knuckles. Subsection 3 (unlockable via lootbox) has a segment on how to use a Chaos Emerald as a lightsaber crystal. It's in the chapter called Rituals For Gaining Godlike Power With Glowing Rocks.

>>10380

>By the way, what should we call this specialized lightsaber pike form?

Several of the saber forms have Nipponese names, and all of them fit within the phonetics even if they don't mean anything

>Makashi = to defeat

>Ataru = to strike

>Shien=support

Perhaps Sasu (To stab)?

>>10429

That might be a good candidate. There's a Japanese polearm called a sasumata with sasu as its root word. It was often used by the police forces of feudal Japan to restrain criminals, but the sasumata wasn't an offensive weapon, so it doesn't really fit with the ferocious assault this style is meant to be. Still, we don't have to abide by the precise intent of the original word, because in this case the original word's intent seems to clash with the weapon named for it. The name could also be lengthened to Sasuma so it's not just a straight port of a Japanese word. How many of the form names actually mean something?

Oh, and we may want to run any name we come up with through a search engine to make sure it isn't a brand of tampon or something. Just imagine telling a rabid Sith Lord you studied Tampon Fu.

>>10449

>find female Sith Lord

>mention Tampon Fu

>gets so triggered about toxic masculinity and muh womyn tax that you're able to beat her with ease.

>>10450

How many female Sith Lords have there even been? Isn't it just Kreia and Lumiya who were actual Sith Lords and not just Dark Jedi? And Kreia isn't the Tumblr type. Presumably there are few female Sith Lords because implying that a woman could ever do anything villainous is unacceptable. That seems like a good topic for its own thread.

>>10451

There were also Darths Zannah and Cognus(sp?) of the Bane line, and some from the TOR period. Keep in mind that "Bane line" means concentrated POWAH, and that Zannah was Bane's apprentice. Certainly no pushover.

>>10456

Yeah, I forgot about her. I never played TOR or read any of those Bane books though. Is he a big guy?

Anyway, I'm almost done with my lightlance writeup. It'll be long, but it's not going to skimp on the detail.

>>10475

>Is he a big guy?

For Who?

>>10379

>In the movies released so far, only Darth Maul and Luke have ever used a punch or a kick in a lightsaber duel.

Actually there are a few other times when this happens. Obi-Wan kicks Maul once, and Anakin wins against Count Dooku by grabbing his hands to chop them off, but it's still pretty rare overall.

>>10421

>Does the RPG make any provisions for standard-sized blades on a lightspear?

This is going to be pretty important.

>>10422

>Juyo, by contrast

There should be a paragraph break here. I hope it doesn't turn out this way when I post the full writeup, which by the way is now 99% complete. It's probably going to be 6-7 posts. I don't know how the hell I even managed to pull this together. TBH I tend to abandon projects too easily. I never used to be that way, but that was back when everything hadn't been overrun by willfully retarded dipshits yet, so there still seemed to be something worth expending effort for. Hopefully this will be good enough for me to feel like I've accomplished something, if only a little.

>>10449

Just those three. The others feel like they could be derived some other Asian language from their structure though.

>>10506

Interesting. I never knew we had anyone who knew foreign languages on this board, especially given how few people post here. The Trekkies have more people than we do. Sad but true. At least they too know what it's like to get your franchise cucked up.

>>10540

Well, they did have the benefit of winning the Hungry games Forgive me if /sw/ won it as well, I haven't been paying terribly close attention to that. Also, STD only just now got off the air so there's been a fresh batch of shit to bitch about. TLJ in contrast came out almost two months ago and the dust is beginning to settle.

>>10543

I haven't been watching that. Boldly going to depths of faggotry no one has gone to before isn't the most appealing premise in the world. But more than that, there's just nothing distinctive about any of this SJW crap. It's all inferior rehashes of what came before because they have no creativity.

Being distinctive is probably the most important trait of any fictional object. Would Star Wars be what it is without lightsabers? I doubt it. There are plenty of space war settings, but none of the rest have the brand of mysticism or the philosophy of Star Wars, and all of that is exemplified by the lightsaber. It may be the most important aspect of Star Wars, not just because it was the first movie to have lightsabers, but because of what it represents. As Kreia says, a lightsaber - any weapon - only achieves worth in how it's wielded, in the struggle of one who holds it. It's not just about the fact that energy swords are cool. Given the introduction of lightsaber-resistant materials as early as The Empire Strikes Back, when Vader's armor is shown to be capable of offering at least partial lightsaber resistance, it's not about them being unstoppable uber-weapons, because people who don't have lightsabers are perfectly capable of winning against someone who has one. It's about what it stands for, and SJWism doesn't really stand for anything.

>>10540

>日本語がわからない

wwwwww

>>10540

The home page says they have more active IPs than us, yet their PPH is usually as slow (or even slower) than ours.

>>10543

We won it once in December.

OK people, I'm basically done with the lightspear stuff and it'll probably be posted later today. I'm just doing a little last-minute editing. I'm trying to make sure it's not just a rehash of spear tutorials you could find on numerous martial arts websites and YouTube videos.

>>10580

Generally speaking, what strategy do you use to adapt traditional fighting methods to work with lightsabers, and/or what process do you use to evaluate lightsaber combat forms as thoroughly as you have, in the context of conventional styles?

>>10589

I start by doing what I'd do for any other melee weapon, comparing the weapon to be evaluated to other weapons of its type. You can compare a halberd to a glaive and see that the halberd can do more damage and has more functions, but will also be less precise than a glaive because it's less balanced. A given weapon is optimized for certain types of attacks. Once you figure out those types, you can proceed to the second stage, the evaluation of the form, which I damn well hope is thorough after all the text I've written. In the case of fictional melee weapons without any technological advancements or magic powers that extend its range of basic abilities over and above what historical weapons can do, the forms are basically identical. A vibrosword, for instance, would just use a classical weapon form with no changes because it still has the same weight distribution and cutting edge as a regular sword. The major advancement of lightsabers isn't the fact that it has a laser blade, it's that it has an unlimited amount of cutting edges. If you somehow made a weapon out of physical mass with that same property and the weight balance of a sword, you could use lightsaber forms with it. The best-designed advanced melee weapons are the ones that allow you to mix multiple techniques which previously couldn't be used together because the design of the weapons you perform them with were too different.

>>10597

>The major advancement of lightsabers isn't the fact that it has a laser blade, it's that it has an unlimited amount of cutting edges.

The complete weightlessness of the blade doesn't have as much of an impact?

>>10605

Not as much as you'd think, since it still has the form factor of a sword. The weight distribution is all close to the blade axis, just the same as a regular sword, except that all the weight is in the hilt now. The only thing the blade's weightlessness does is make it easier to swing around, meaning you don't get tired as quickly, but you also have to be much more careful with it to avoid hitting friendlies. As long as you maintain the same form factor and weight distribution, subtracting weight isn't going to change much.

>>10607

I wouldn't call myself a martial arts master or anything. Everything I write here is open to criticism, and there's about to be a lot of opportunity for that. I'm down to the last bit of editing, and I'd say the lightlance posting will be up in about an hour.

>>10607

Actually, if you really wanted to reach for a difference, you can bring up the fact that with a regular two-handed sword, you're supposed to torque the hilt when handling it in order to make it more responsive, whereas with a lightsaber you get almost no torque, but the difference is honestly pretty insignificant. You'll get the same overall form with either case.

The guide is done. Wall of text incoming. Leave questions, comments, criticism, etc.

Fighting with a Lightsaber Lance For Fun and Profit

The lightsaber lance, or lightlance, also called the lightpike or lightspear, is a weapon for true patricians. All you need is to attach a lightsaber to a shaft of shielded or lightsaber-resistant material, and you too can be a real ass space homeboi. With this, the lightlance style should be developed enough for people to pick it up and start using it for whatever, whether it's tabletop roleplaying, dicing potatoes or writing fan fiction about a Jedi's whirlwind romance with an anime waifubot with huge mechanized milkers. You could maybe even fight in real life with it since it's got real martial arts mixed in, but you're strongly advised to actually take real martial arts before attempting this, and there are some moves in this style that you can't do, or at least are very difficult to do, with a currently existing weapon. If you want to learn real spear fighting, here are some schools you can study. Sojutsu and naginatajutsu are the Japanese spear disciplines. There isn't a spear-specific discipline indigenous to another country that I'm aware of, but many Chinese arts and HEMA include a goodly amount of spear work, with some of those styles focusing heavily on it. I'm told some Korean arts have it too, but my knowledge of that is lacking. This style draws heavily from Chinese spear techniques, but also pulls some ideas from Japanese weapon arts and from hand-to-hand fighting methods from around the world. There's no single best style of martial arts. It's all tailored to your body and your needs.

All martial arts will include at least basic staff training, much of which applies to spears, but they won't all place very much focus on it. This posting will include a detailed description of footwork, bladework and a kata. It's intended to be faster and more intense than the spear fighting we've seen so far in Star Wars. The style is made of a series of simple movements chained together in various ways, all of which involve your whole body moving synchronously. Note that even with the information here, there's still a lot of room for improving the style (more kata, for instance), but I'll leave that to the individual who wants to use it, because you'll be able to tell from the description if it fits your needs or not. You can use this style with standard lightlances (short blade/long shaft), long lightpikes (long blade/long shaft), lightsaber nagamakis (standard-sized blade with equal length shaft), double-ended standard lightlances, or even a long-handled saberstaff. You could also possibly have multiple blades on one or both ends, but you'll make the weapon more cumbersome and reduce its capability of fine thrusting work.

First, I'll cover the footwork because it's the most basic part. Unfortunately, video games and cartoons/CGI generally don't put much effort into depicting how important footwork is. To start out, we need to talk about the three rings of defense, which is a concept drawn from real martial arts. Whenever people are talking about MMA, you'll often hear them making reference to striking distance, trapping distance and grappling distance, which correspond well to the three rings of defense. With a polearm, you want to stay at the outermost ring, and you'll employ different methods to do this depending on your opposition. For normal steps to move forward or side-to-side, it's best to keep your weight distributed in your direction of movement with your other foot on its sole, so you don't have to drag it with you when you want to move. Some styles want you to have your weight on your back foot because they're more defensive, but this is a very kinetic style, and you want to press the attack as much as you can. Still, you'll need to step back at times, but no matter what you do, you want to keep your weight in the direction you're going. You'll need to pivot at some point, and this should be done by pivoting around the foot where your weight is concentrated, on the ball of the foot. Cross-steps are for when you need to reposition yourself quickly to dodge an incoming blow. Cross-steps and sidesteps are vital, because they let you stay at the outer ring of defense while not forcing you to redirect your momentum as much as a backstep would, and whenever possible, you should do a cross-step or sidestep instead of a backstep. The only time this is hard is in confined spaces or against multiple opponents. In these situations, you should always attempt to isolate a few enemies at a time. There's no guaranteed tactic against multiple opponents, but your range will give you a better chance than most. With that said, it's time to talk bladework.

Our bladework will be based on Shien. Shien bladework utilizes a system where the range of angles between the blade and the wielder's forearm is much smaller than in other styles. In most other styles, particularly Djem So, the blade can travel to all sorts of angles, but Shien doesn't do this. It keeps the angle fairly close to perpendicular at most times. In reverse grip Shien, this is even more noticeable because it stays close to being parallel instead, usually within 30 degrees. This is evident if you watch the path of Galen Marek's lightsaber. You'll notice that because of the way he holds it, its angle always remains fairly close to his arm. This is the reason Shien is the bladework of choice to be adapted to a spear form. Because of how a spear is held and its general focus on thrusting, your forearms are necessarily going to be at a close angle to the spear shaft while holding it, and this constraint is going to dictate how it can be used. Essentially it forces all bladework to be body work and keeps you focused on your target. Kazdan Paratus doesn't hold to this constraint, and thus it's doubtful that he's practicing Shien. He uses all sorts of wild slashes which don't fit with Shien, so if he knows Shien, it's in addition to another style. There is a key to getting spear Shien right, and it's the same as the answer to the question raised in >>10314 and >>10315 about the major differences between real spear fighting and this. We're going to talk about that now, because it's arguably the most important part of the style. That part is the draw cut.

Draw cuts are from Japanese swordsmanship. You rarely see draw cuts in spear styles because they're built on the spearhead's point, not its edge. Draw cuts can be done with Japanese spears, but due to a lightsaber's infinite edges they're easier to do with a lightlance, and thus it's worth spending significant effort developing them, which no real-world spear arts do. This is the biggest change from real spear arts, and it can be a very effective way of punishing reckless enemies. In Shien, nearly every cut is a draw cut, and this is because of the restriction on the angle your blade can be at. With lightlances, thrusting is more prominent, but draw cuts are more important here than with normal spears.

In this style, you have three main attacks: thrusts, slashes, and draw cuts, each at a small range of different angles. A fourth attack, the crosscut, is performed by slashing while sidestepping or cross-stepping. The powerful draw cuts enabled by the lightsaber blade can be done at the end of every technique you perform, except those where you attack directly with the shaft. Draw cuts are very similar to crosscuts, almost being merely a variation of crosscuts, except that they're directed backwards at an angle, which would only be effective with a spearhead designed for it, and you can't get better than a lightsaber blade for that. This is a manifestation of both the Shien bladework and Juyo principles, because it can effectively make every attack into two attacks. When blocking blasters, you'll be making crosscut/draw cut motions and torquing the spear up, down and side to side. When you pivot, you don't want to be spinning everywhere like a saberstaff user would, and your attacks won't be the bashing strikes of Djem So. They're light, measured strokes that easily lead into another attack.

We now need to outline our defense, to the extent that this style even has dedicated defense. Parrying with the spear is done by moving the spear point in a circle to push incoming attacks away. A two-thirds grip is better for dealing with ranged enemies since it offers you more of a chance to angle the blade to block, while the standard grip with one hand in the center and the other near the haft will give you more range against melee fighters. The spear should be held against your body whenever it's not being thrust to give you better control over it, because again, all your bladework is body work. When you need to pivot, holding your spear against your body will lower your moment of inertia, letting your angular momentum rotate you faster, and it allows you an extra point of contact to control it with. Since less focus is placed on pivoting in general, the style's overall movement is very efficient. Your defense against multiple opponents will incorporate more slashing than against only one, and you need to be at an angle to them where you can line them up as closely as possible.

Finally, we'll give an example by talking about a kata. In the Jedi system of lightsaber combat, attacks are described as being directed to any one of six zones, so I'll be using that nomenclature here. If you've taken real martial arts, you know how elaborate and long kata can be. The kata in Jedi Academy are more like combos, which are over in a few seconds, whereas real kata can have dozens of moves and take a minute or two to perform, because they're meant to be training tools, not something you use in a fight. That said, let's begin our kata. The first part will be analogous to a JA kata. We start by thrusting while we step forward and keep our weight in the direction of our thrust, parry to bat away an incoming strike (and hit anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in the parry's path), and transition that into a downward slash to Zone 1. Then we thrust again, parry again and use it to transition into a crosscut to Zone 2. After the crosscut, perform a draw cut across Zone 3 while doing a back or sidestep, and finish off with another thrust.

The sequence is as follows:

Straight thrust > Parry > Zone 1 slash > Straight thrust > Parry > Zone 2 crosscut > Zone 3 draw cut > Straight thrust

This would be considered a basic but viable combo in a real spear discipline, aside from the draw cut, which would probably be replaced with a parry. Of course, in the Star Wars setting, you can also mix Force powers into this, but Force powers aren't explicitly a part of most of the lightsaber forms. Still, you probably won't actually be using a combo like this blow-for-blow. You'll mix and match different attacks for the best effect, but thrusts will almost always be your starting point. This sequence was designed to emphasize that, and it serves as a foundation to build additional skills on. Per the Wikipedia article on kata, traditional kata in karate include at least 20 moves, and in judo they have at least 15. This has only 8 so far, so let's add a series of moves to get it to a total of 18. What we're adding here is analogous to the Flurry series of feats in Knights of the Old Republic.

Starting from the end of the previous sequence:

Parry > Zone 2 draw cut > Straight thrust > Parry > Zone 3 draw cut > Thrust angled down and to the side > Zone 5 draw cut > Straight thrust > Parry > Zone 2 slash

This one-two-three combo of thrust > parry > slash/crosscut/draw cut can be repeated at many angles as often as the situation allows. The first part of the kata has two thrust-parry-technique combos, but the second combo has a draw cut after the end of it while the first one doesn't. This is to show you what options you have. In a real martial arts style, just because a kata has few moves doesn't mean it's a weak training tool, or a tool only for beginners. Some of the beginning kata are trained with by the most advanced masters of the style. This is just to provide a baseline for others to work with, because this is meant to be creative. If you decided to have a character use this style in a story you're writing, you could incorporate all sorts of acrobatics like somersaults, rolls and Force jumps. This isn't how real martial artists would fight with a spear, but this is a story about space samurai, so let loose.

That was a lot of words. I put my nose to the grindstone for this, so I hope it helps somebody. Now all it needs is a name and people willing to develop it even more by putting it to use.

I'll try to sum this lightlance style up into bullet points, for those who don't want to read all of that.

>Heavily offensive, forward-focused, motion-economizing style built on a Shien/Juyo mixture which plays to the strengths of polearms

>Spear shaft maintains a near-constant angle to the wielder's forearms and is held in close contact with the body for greater control

>Three major types of attacks: thrusts, slashes, and draw cuts

>Draw cuts are the core of the style because they let you attack more often with less movement and counter attempts to close the distance

>Footwork relies on your weight being on the front foot to synchronize with attacks and to apply pressure to the enemy

>Capable of blaster deflection with a long-bladed weapon, although won't do as well at it as a normal lightsaber with a defense-focused style

>>10620

What if, as an alternative to blocking blasters, the style was built with force speed in mind just like Niman is built with telekinesis in mind

>the best defense is not be there

>>10621

You can use Force speed with any style and any weapon. The best defense is always to not be in a position where you have to block enemy shots, or at least to be in a position where you can limit the number of shots being fired at you.

>there will never be another Jedi Knight game with fully customizable lightsaber styles and lightsabers including curved hilts, lances, and tonfas

>instead we're going to get nothing but Lootboxfront and mobileshit until the end of time

This is the worst timeline.

>>10741

Any chance of indie devs picking up the slack?

>>10742

Maybe if the original Jedi Knight team got back together, they could make a similar game under a new IP. I don't know of any other devs who could do it.

Anyone thought about a saber with an angled hilt, as opposed to a curved one? I don't think I've ever seen one of those. It might be a bit easier to use for someone who isn't going to focus on Makashi.

>>9609

https://community.moviebattles.org/threads/guide-saber-forms-in-mbii.2876/ Here's how thye were implemented in-game.

>>9609

>Notable users: Plo Koon

May I ask from where you got this? Browsing the Legends wiki and it says Plo Koon preferred to employ Shien while dueling.

>>11954

I issued a correction to this in >>10244. Plo Koon didn't prefer Shii-Cho. I got him and Kit Fisto mixed up.

Also, the front page of the site has labeled this a quality thread.

>>11955

Ah, my mistake. Been a while since I read through this thread all the way.

Have you more insights into saber combat? Do multiple sabers have any sort of place in serious dueling, besides saber throws and the aforementioned +3 Crystals of Muh Dick? You bring up a good point about having no leverage, but there could still be some potential use with the Soresu form, against large numbers of saberless opponents. (I don't think) deflecting blaster bolts requires any kind of leverage, just that the blade be in the bolt's path, and mastering deflection relies more on letting the Force guide your hand movements to where the bolt is about to be than physical dexterity. Also, when you're rushing in to gut the poor fools that came at you with blaster rifles, I don't believe leverage will be as much of an issue either. Saber blades have been shown to cut through flesh and most materials without resistance, with the exception of really thick slabs of metal and saber-resistant materials.

>>11956

>Have you more insights into saber combat?

I wrote all the stuff about lightlances, but there's still a lot more room for others to contribute to lightsaber knowledge. I know a good bit about swords and spears, but I'd love it if somebody would write one about lighttonfas, since I don't know dick about tonfas. Also I wish there were more Force user flags. We need flags for the Jal Shey, Zeison Sha, etc. To my knowledge, there sadly isn't a Force-using order that focuses specifically on the lance. The Knights of Zakuul use it the most, but they also use other weapons.

>Do multiple sabers have any sort of place in serious dueling, besides saber throws and the aforementioned +3 Crystals of Muh Dick?

There seem to be few dedicated dual blade users among the elite tier of duelists. Asajj Ventress did okay with them, especially for someone who's not officially a Sith, but she never quite one-upped Anakin or Obi-Wan. Ahsoka does well enough, which is mostly on her because Anakin doesn't specialize in Jar'Kai, but she still semi-often ends up needing to be saved by various people and/or things including fellow Jedi, clones, and time portals. Of course, you can optionally make Jaden Korr use dual sabers, but back when I played a ton of Jedi Academy, they were my least favorite style, and this is echoed by much of the higher-ranked JA community. Then there's the second Starkiller, who probably does the best of all the dual wielding specialists.

On the other side, there's the aforementioned Komari Vosa, who used dual sabers (which would later be given to Ventress) and was one of the few Force users who actually lost a one-on-one fight to a blaster using non-Force sensitive, though this may have been due to the fact that she was Count Dooku's former apprentice and was therefore trained primarily in Makashi, which does poorly against blasters. Boc from Jedi Knight gets owned by Kyle Katarn, but Kyle Katarn owning people isn't news. Serra Keto (from the Episode III videogame) gets rekt by Anakin during the Jedi Temple attack. Then there are the comic book characters that I'm not very familiar with.

>You bring up a good point about having no leverage, but there could still be some potential use with the Soresu form, against large numbers of saberless opponents.

Dual sabers are definitely good against large numbers of blaster users, but this seems to be just about the only thing they're good for. Overall they just don't tend to hold up well against single saber masters or exotic weapon specialists.

>>11960

For what purpose?

>>11961

Mace Windu was one of the strongest Jedi in the Order. He wasn't going to be brought down by Jango. But the example of Coleman Trebor is another reason I think Shien is better than Soresu. You can actually be offensive to some extent with Shien, but Trebor just stood there and tried to deflect. Standing around trying to swat shots back might work against battle droids, but not against hardass mercs. But that could also be chalked up to the fact that the Jedi of that era had never faced real opponents before.

>11962

“Jango Fett bristles with weapons. An instinctive killer: the deadliest man in the galaxy. Jango can kill me in less than a second. I know it.”

-Shatterpoint

>>11961

he got a crit, nothing even the best style could do against it

>>8962

>>9033

As much as I like seeing lightsabers in tinkering scenes like this, I think the film's better off without it; a lot of the tension in Jabba's sail barge comes from not knowing exactly what was going to happen. Revealing the new saber when it popped out of R2 like that was a much better reveal. But it's a nice little tidbit if you already know what's going to happen, so putting it on as a DVD extra makes sense.

>>11971

Mace can also kill Jango in less than a second. But Obi-Wan used Soresu and did a lot better against Jango. However, Obi-Wan had fought a Sith Lord before, which is much more dangerous than anything any Jedi at the time had fought up to that point, and he's one of the main characters, so he's probably just better at it than Coleman Trebor.

The 7-form system was outdated anyway and probably should have been replaced even if the Jedi weren't almost totally wiped out and required to build a new system due to the loss of prior knowledge. I'd probably adopt a system based almost entirely on Form V. Form I and III just aren't effective enough, Form II would be an archaic curiosity only studied by a few, Form IV is impractical and doesn't economize movement, and Form VI is barely even a form because Force powers can be used with any form. Form VII would be the advanced form taught to lightsaber specialists, but Shien and Djem So are more than enough for all but the most difficult situations.

>>11993

Obi-Wan and Jango were more evenly matched in their fight. Jango still had is jetpack, for one, and wasn't particularly interested in killing Obi-Wan, just taking him out of the picture long enough to get away. Add to that Obi-Wan using the passive Soresu form, and also not wanting to kill Jango because he wanted information from him, and you can't compare Kenobi and Fett's fight to Fett's and Windu's, because in the former neither is trying especially hard to kill the other.

>>11993

This is filled with too many instances of "probably." I'd definitely prefer an order that heavily emphasizes Form V over the others. I just haven't spent enough time thinking about all the details of a revamped lightsaber training program to be able to say what else it might involve. There's no one-size-fits-all solution, and everyone's personal style of lightsaber combat will be slightly different and may involve saber variants or mixing lightsaber combat with gunfighting, so you still may need to keep some remnants of the other styles in place.

For example, the Form V emphasis scheme might work well for most humans and humanoids, but some adjustments would have to be made for the many alien species who have completely different physiologies, or for smaller combatants for whom Form V isn't the best option.

>>11993

Any Jedi could kill someone who’d just suffered a concussion. It’s worth noting however that the Mace/Jango fight scene was apparently supposed to have gone on for longer than it ultimately did in the theatrical cut of the film, with Jango actually blocking Mace’s lightsaber with his wrist armor at points, interestingly enough.

>>11995

This is also true. I'd still be interested to see what a Soresu user with dual blades could do against someone like Jango at peak fighting condition though. Wookieepedia says Coleman Trebor beat Qui-Gon in a sparring match. Maybe this had something to do with Obi-Wan's decision to convert to Form III. Also, Barriss Offee is listed as a major Form III practitioner, and she used Ventress's dual sabers against Ahsoka successfully during the final arc of TCW. Ahsoka should have had some Soresu training because Anakin was trained by Obi-Wan, but she was mostly using standard Jar'Kai mixed with Form V.

I've thought about how to remedy Soresu's flaws and what I first came up with is the idea that Form I and Form III go pretty well together because Form III doesn't attack much and Form I's attacks are stand-alone and cautious. Theoretically every Jedi should have spent some time learning Form I, but we don't always see that come out in Form III practitioners. But then I realized that a combination of Form I and Form III would end up as something very close to standard Shien. Having thought about Shien some more, I think the reason they say Shien fails in duels is because of the locked perpendicular-ish orientation of the blade, whereas most of the time in a duel you want to rely on the point of the sword. However, as I've opined earlier (and as Galen Marek has shown) it's possible to create a much more aggressive variation of the style that does better in duels. But to me, a blade-locked style is less efficient without a spear.

>>11998

Now that is interesting. Why would they cut that out? It would have been fun to see.

To expound on this lightsaber program a bit, I can't think of which form would be best for tonfas, but I know it wouldn't be a Form V variant. Neither Shien nor Djem So offer the type of bladework needed for fist weapons. You might be able to pull pieces from Form I and III in a way that they don't add up to Shien, because the whole point of a tonfa is to spin it at different angles. Tonfas would likely be another weapon-specific form, but I don't have the knowledge to create that one. Someone who knows about tonfas is going to have to jump in because my training with them is nonexistent. But this is another example of an instance in which we can't just rely on Form V for everything. Granted I'm not really heavily in favor of tonfas myself, but I'm sure someone will be. They're less retarded than a helicopter lightsaber at any rate.

Also, I'm not sure if people here have heard that there are at least two hidden lightsaber forms in Jedi Outcast and one more in Jedi Academy. There's a FAQ on GameFAQs that tells you the console commands to unlock the two JO forms. I tried them, but I didn't find them to my liking because they were too slow and the existing red style had better movements more likely to land a hit. The hidden form in JA is just the double-bladed lightsaber animations with one of the ends deactivated, and there are videos on YouTube that show you how to unlock it, but it's more of a glitch than an actual style. It still completely changes how the style plays though. It ends up being very much like Shien, so naturally I thought it was awesome and I wish it was available through standard means.

>>12006

Yeah, the guard shoto. You can point tonfas any way you like just by twirling them with the grip, but Maris Brood has the grip right near the pommel, meaning hers would tend towards having the saber point backwards. Putting the grip a bit more to the center can fix this, and you can maintain the location of the saber blade by adding a couple inches to the hilt. If you point the blade forward it becomes something like a Halo energy sword, while if you point it away it's similar in concept to fighting with a reverse grip on an ordinary blade, but the shape of the blade makes it differ quite a bit. You could do slashing attacks just by rotating the blade, which makes it pretty efficient. Combine that with fist weapon principles and some reverse grip techniques and you could have a very interesting fighting style, in the same way that ordinary lightsabers let you combine techniques from several real-world sword disciplines because of their infinite cutting edges. Having two of them would somewhat compensate for its blaster deflection weakness, but it still won't be as good at blocking them as a regular saber. It's like the extended-blade lightspear in that way.

>>12025

The one issue I see is with defending. Using that perpendicular grip means that whenever you're attempting to parry another blade, the force of the blow is applying a bunch of torque to the blade, which is only counteracted by the strength of the user's grip at the point of rotation. You've basically turned the whole saber into one big lever arm whenever you're deflecting blows. The opportunity to quickly switch your grip to attack from different angles is nice, though.

>>12026

The guard shoto appears to give you both inherently lacking defense and more attack options than most other saber variants, meaning anyone who uses it needs to be absurdly aggressive. With that and the lacking blaster deflection in mind, we can rule out Soresu for the basis for a tonfa style. Shii-Cho and arguably even Juyo are too disconnected for it as well. There are times when the choice of a different weapon can enhance a certain style and make up for some of its weaknesses, but this isn't going to be one of them. Saberstaffs are a good example of that because you can use them with Soresu for added blaster deflection and some much needed offensive power. In fact, that may be the best way to fix Soresu. Obviously it can also be used with more offensive styles as Maul does. Using a lance with Shien may be another example. But I can't think of a single way tonfas could work with most of the 7 Jedi styles.

Maris Brood's master was Shaak Ti, who knew all 7 forms to some extent but primarily used Makashi and Ataru, so that's what Maris Brood was probably taught. Of course there are exceptions to this, like Count Dooku being Qui-Gon's master but Qui-Gon specializing in a different style, and the same with Obi-Wan and Anakin. When the tonfa is being used as a claw it'd be with a Makashi-like technique, but due to the odd construction of the hilt you'd have inferior control to a regular saber and especially a curved hilt saber. A full-fledged lightclaw would at least give good control because it can be secured more tightly to your hand. When the tonfa is in its normal position, it'd be used with some kludged-together reverse grip style. Even though Shien is the only style the canonical material says uses reverse grip, I don't think it's impossible in principle to use reverse grip with another style, and the bladework and philosophy of a guard shoto is vastly different from Shien. Even then, the reverse grip doesn't matter nearly as much since it's generally more defensive, and the blade position makes it harder to defend with a guard shoto. When you're twirling the guard shoto around, it probably seems like you'd be better off with a saberstaff, or even the damn sabercopter. I'm not sure what old Jedi style that falls under.

In the end, a guard shoto style looks to be made up of several other styles mutated until they're hardly recognizable and considerably inferior to the originals, and then fused together. The only real advantage it has is that it can perform attacks very quickly. If anyone wants to try to figure out how best to utilize this property, be my guest.

>there's no 8-Bit Theater takeoff where some Jedi who's not all there in the head tries to make lightsaber-chucks

>>9610

>Lightsaber whip

Also known as the "No one will leave this fight alive including the wielder and any unfortunate bystandards"-saber.

Also wasn't there a lightclub at one point?

>>12063

>lightclub

How?

>>12103

Its basically just a really big lightsaber for larger species with bulky builds and hands.

>>12109

So just a dual-phase lightsaber with a big hilt? "club" implies relying on blunt force trauma instead of the saber's perfect cutting blade. The closest thing to a real club would be those electro-staves that Grievous's Magnaguards use.

>>12054

>lightsaber-chucks

Be careful what you wish for.

>>12122

>that disgusting camel toe

Fuck I always thought he wore green pants.

>>12122

>>12164

Plot twist: Gorc was an old gamorrean lady all along.

>>12151

Weird. But not half as weird as the thought of Gorc being an old Gamorrean lady. That's just horrifying.

I sometimes wonder why it took them until the prequel era to codify lightsaber styles. But anyway, who does everyone think the greatest lightsaber duelist is in terms of pure demonstrated martial arts skill, discounting Force power? You have some people who are supposed to have mastered all the forms, like Yoda and Palpatine, but that's mostly an ability we're told about rather than shown, and we should only use things we've actually seen to base this on. Try to leave out videogame characters unless you can find evidence of their skills in non-videogame media, because videogames are based on player skill and not the character's inherent skill. If you can't decide on a single greatest, make a top 3 or 5 or something.

>>12173

>lightsaber duelist

Maybe this should be "lightsaber fighter." Given the wide variety of military forces in Star Wars, it'd be unfair to only count battles between people with lightsabers. You could certainly include duelist as a subcategory though, along with quite a few other potential subcategories.

>>12173

>>12174

Stereotypical as it may seem I'd have to say Mace Windu. Form VII, particularly Vaapad as it requires one to master both aggression and restraint, is a difficult form to learn. Further, he's the only character we've seen to hold his own against the undoubtedly powerful Palpatine It might be argued that Palpatine was intentionally holding back to draw out the conflict and force Anakin into a position to betray Windu, but we can only speculate on whether or not this is true, and to what degree it's true. Sheev had a clear mastery of the Force, and apparent skill with a lightsaber, cutting down three High Council members and another Master within the space of a few seconds. But Windu not only repelled his attack but went on the offensive, actually managing to disarm Sidious But not as hard as Anakin disarms him, and was seemingly on the verge of defeating him.

>>12122

Funny how Pic's species was never stated anywhere until Dark Forces where they called him a monkey-lizard, despite the fact that he shares no visible traits with a kowakian monkey-lizard and actually looks more like a short mutated gamorrean which I think was the original intent. Unless of course he was a monkey-lizard spliced with gamorrean DNA. But still would've been neat to know that gamorreans had a smaller sub-race which were effectively goblins to compliment their orc theme.

>>12177

>Dark Forces

*Dark Forces Saga

>>12176

Mace did better than Yoda, at least. I'd think most of the best lightsaber wielders would tend to be from the movies rather than the EU, or at least clustered around the movie era, because the movies are the centerpiece of the franchise. Jedi Battlemasters would be good candidates from the EU, but some of them are there mostly for their Force powers. Kyle Katarn is probably the only exception to the "no vidya" rule because they put him in novels and comics too, and he eventually became the Battlemaster of the New Jedi Order. The Sith don't really have Battlemasters, but it always seems like the apprentices focus much more on the saber than the masters do. Other Force-using orders can mostly be disregarded because many of them don't even use lightsabers.

>>12177

Wizards of the Coast did a series of web articles where they stated up all the characters from the Dark Forces games and expanded their backstories. Gorc and Pic were the result of Sith alchemy experiments.

Those articles were actually pretty good. A prime example of how the better EU authors were fond of linking all the seemingly disconnected stories into one coherent narrative.

>>12176

>Sheev had a clear mastery of the Force, and apparent skill with a lightsaber, cutting down three High Council members

Honestly i can't take that scene seriously. It was one of most awful scenes of the all movies. Mace and the 3 stooges. Palpatine wasn't even that fast. They just stood there and besides Sasee Ti, who was actually stabbed, the others only had cuts who shouldn't be fatal. Master Fisting was the worst offender, a wound and "awwwwbloo bleargh i'm dead".

Please don't bring that scene to memory again please. The growl, Palpatine trying spinning, which is a good trick, the slowpoke council members, the one cut bleargh I'm dead effect…

>>12187

Wasn't that scene meant to happen twice as fast as it really did, but couldn't be shown faster due to filming constraints? As I understand it Sheev was supposed to be like a red blur, cutting down the backdrop characters before you really knew what happened.

>>12187

>Honestly i can't take that scene seriously. It was one of most awful scenes of the all movies.

its treason then

>>8614

AYO HOL UP

>>12191

…?

>>12191

SO YOU SAYIN

>>12186

I didn't say they weren't good (they were really good), but Pic definitely looked more Gamorrean, and Gorc was just a Gamorrean jacked up on sith alchemy steroids. All I'm saying is it would've been nice if Pic was a sub-race of smaller and dumber gamorreans whose experiments involved increasing his intellect to the max. It would've been fun to have gamorrean goblins for my SW game nights.

>>12193

WE WUZ JE'DAIIS N SHIT?

>>12188

I agree that the idea was that, but the execution was awful. If they did something in the lines of the novel, with Palpatine at least tricking them into lower their guard for a sec and actually landing killing blows. They already had show decapitations, maiming, and later immolation. What would be a couple of fast decapitations (not even going to the novel where Palpatine kills Sasee Tin with a lightsaber in the middle of head)

And correction: Frank stabs Agen Kolar, not Tin.

>>12199

For what it's worth I tried watching the scene at twice the playback and it seems closer to what Lucas intended.

>>12200

Even at higher speed. Palpatine roars, spins, lands, a makes a stabing motion that lasts forever and the Jedi… stands there. They are supposed to be precogs with split second reflexes. I don't know… they should had done something like Palpatine blinking, one moment he's there and them he is over them already.

Why spinning?!

>>12207

It's a good trick :^)

>>8616

Vader taking an elevator could have been cut but that part in the cave would have made some good context.

has there ever been fan edits to keep the original cut vibe but add in scenes like that. Shit like actually having a toshies station would have been nice.

>>9025

>Shit’s starting to make sense…

when the first order is entirely white it's only NOW that you get that?

>>12283

You mean they changed that from the cast of browns and whites they had in TFA?

So is there any lightsaber variation that hasn't been done yet?

>>12409

>>11960

You haven't even done any of these yet, anon.

We could always go back to discussing dedicated Jedi hunters, as well as how Jedi could deal with them.

>>12412

I think there should just be one category for all those clusterfuck lightsabers. I doubt you could make anything like a functional style for any of them. The more blades a given saber has, the less freedom of movement it offers. This is enough of a problem with basic saberstaffs, but once your saber has 17 blades jutting out at all different angles, your best option is to just throw it, because any attempt to use it as a melee weapon is just as likely to kill you as it is your enemy, or more. It's swordchucks-tier. The only exception to this would be a many-tipped lightlance, but even most of the techniques I came up with for it are rendered useless by the extra blades, and eventually the weight distribution starts to suffer as well.

As for Jedi hunters, considering that Jango Fett and Cad Bane are the only ones who scored real victories, and both of them against relatively ill-prepared Force users (one against someone trained in the single worst lightsaber style for fighting blasters, the other just an apprentice), we might do better to talk about droids. Or we could always speculate about what a fully realized Dark Trooper program would have been like, but that deserves its own thread.

>>12001

Not sure. Maybe the original pacing of the scene triggered George’s autism somehow. The shooting script for the Kamino fight scene also notes that Jango “deflects” Obi-Wan’s lightsaber

>>12423

Isn't Boba's armor just durasteel according to the EU though? And he doesn't get beskar'gam until much later?

You know what, I'll just change to the Revanchist symbol. I've tried other symbols and seen others in other threads, and I think I like this one the best.

>>12423

You have to wonder how the Mandalorians lost the Mandalorian War if they were such badasses. Maybe they just weren't all Fett-tier fighters, or maybe if Jango was in charge of that group of Mandalorians, they would have done better, but you have to wonder about how every time a Fett is set up to fight a powerful Jedi, some weird coincidence happens to make the Fett lose. Jango got trampled by a random monster and Boba was thwarted by Han activating his jetpack completely by accident. I guess there's no substitute for having the will of the Force on your side.

>>12423

>Jango took out at least eight battle-ready Jedi knights on Galidraan, as well as a Jedi Master specializing in the single best style for fighting blasters on Geonosis.

Having thought about this some more, Coleman Trebor might have won against Jango, but he was trying to fight Dooku and Jango at the same time. Between them, they have all three rings of defense covered. Coleman could have closed in on Jango and gotten close enough that he couldn't properly aim his blasters, which is basically what Mace did to win, but if Coleman had done that, Dooku would have cut him down, as evidenced by Dooku's Makashi beating Obi-Wan's Soresu both times in the movies, and Obi-Wan is said to be the best Soresu practitioner in the Order, so if he couldn't beat Dooku with it, Coleman definitely couldn't. He needed proper backup, if not from other Jedi then from clone troopers, and even then he probably would have lost to Dooku. His attempt was a foolhardy and un-Soresu-like act.

>>12427

That’s true, but I’m not talking about the EU, but this weird thing where the filmmakers (including possibly George Lucas himself) seem to have a clear idea that Mandalorian armor is lightsaber-resistant to some degree, but this never seems to quite make it into the final cut of the films.

>>12433

>lol Mandalorian Wars

If I recall my EU history, it was a combination of Revan being just *that* good in his newfound role as Space Rommel combined with the fact that the Mandalorians were attempting to take on more or less the entire galaxy for whatever reason, so even if the average Mando warrior could regularly take on ten Republic soldiers and win (I remember reading that somewhere years ago before the dark times…before the Disney purchase) there were still trillions more to replace them. The fact that they got as far as they did was I think partially explained in the old KotOR comics as being the result of disunity and factiousness in the Republic, which prevented large-scale mobilization against the invasion in its early days and also served as a recruiting tool for the Mandalorian armies, since, as ever, huge numbers of people outside the Core had reasons to resent/hate the Coruscant-based government.

>lol will of the Force

Otherwise known as “plot armor,” but there’s something even greater at work in the galaxy: popularity power. ;-)

>>12434

*Was* Trevor trying to guard against Dooku? Seems to me Dooku was just passively standing there, while Trebor had all his attention focused on Jango (whom it really doesn’t make sense to dispute as an effective fighter against Force-users, because that’s kind of the whole narrative point for his being the template of the Jedi-killing Clone Army in the first place). On another note, though, this kind of touches on why I’ve never liked the idea of lightsaber “forms” as introduced in the Prequels, or at least how that idea was implemented, because discussion of it always seems to devolve into this weird rock-paper-scissors game of “Form X totally beats Form Y, which always beats Form Z.”

>>12436

>so even if the average Mando warrior could regularly take on ten Republic soldiers and win (I remember reading that somewhere years ago before the dark times…before the Disney purchase) there were still trillions more to replace them.

Canderous talks about how they were outnumbered and outgunned in KotOR, but they still did quite a bit of damage.

>Seems to me Dooku was just passively standing there, while Trebor had all his attention focused on Jango

The fact that Dooku was even there made him a factor in the fight by default. It takes a fraction of a second to ignite a lightsaber and go from "just standing there" to "whooping some ass." Any attempt to get close to Jango would have had to go through Dooku.

>>12445

Maybe it’s my unwillingness to sit through every episode of CG Wars, but I don’t recall that Dooku ever been shown to take “a fraction of a second to go from ‘just standing there’ to ‘whooping some ass’” on another Jedi without prior warning. It just doesn’t seem to be in accordance with his character.

>>12448

That happens several times in CG Wars. All the episodes aren't great, but there's definitely some good stuff in it, so you should watch it.

>>12454

He just straight up attacks people? And here I thought Anakin and Grievous underwent dramatic changes…

>>12456

Dooku basically becomes an emotionless puppet for Sidious unlike his counterpart in the EU who actually cared about the galaxy and knew that the Republic and Jedi had become corrupt with political power. In CW he was willing to kill and manipulate the CIS in anyway he saw fit in order to further his precious Master's goal, and he even tried to kill Ventress in a blind rage soon after the Emperor ordered him to kill her.

>>12434

Come to think of it, Jango killing all those Jedi on Galidraan may not be as impressive as it sounds, considering that Niman was the standard form of the Order at the time and thus it's likely that most of the Jedi force there was using it. As mentioned earlier, every Niman practitioner at Geonosis died, and none of them fought anyone with a lightsaber there, just battle droids.

>>10317

It's been a while since this post, but I actually just wanted to say that it was the primary inspiration for the focus on draw cuts with a lightlance. It sounded like a crosscut at first, but when I thought about it through the lens of lightsabers, I realized that you could accomplish this goal by just pulling the lance backwards. As it happens, that's a real technique, just not one you usually see with spears.

Speaking of Dark Troopers and other cybernetic/droid Jedi hunters, I've been wondering if a lightlance would be any good against them. It seems more reasonable to find vulnerable points in saber-resistant armor with a spear.

>>12475

Unlikely. You wouldn’t send a bunch of diplomats and librarians to confront a heavily-armed mercenary army. The appeal to the example of battle droids on Geomosis is off-base as well, considering that all of Jango’s kills at Galidraan seem to have taken place in melee. Really, you should stop trying to minimize the incident, since the whole point of it in the first place is to show that Jango is an extraordinarily lethal fighter whom even Palpatine and Dooku are impressed by. Trying to rationalize that away just makes you look kind of petty.

>>12478

>You wouldn’t send a bunch of diplomats and librarians to confront a heavily-armed mercenary army.

The Jedi did dumb shit all the time, like that one time they sent a bunch of diplomats and librarians to confront an army of battle droids. I'm just trying to consider all the angles here for the sake of completeness. Anybody who can pull off a solid win against any Force user without using the Force themselves is inarguably pretty damn impressive. Jedi hunters are one of the most interesting aspects of Star Wars because the whole setting is based on the Force. In almost any fictional setting that has any kind of magic or superpowers, I'm always drawn to the anti-mage archetype. Showing that the Jedi were seriously out of touch with the galaxy and in dire need of a Council with a basic grasp of military strategy doesn't diminish the accomplishments of those who take advantage of their lack of knowledge to defeat them. It just shows how superpowers are no substitute for more mundane talents.

On another level, this sort of thing allows you to come to a deeper understanding of storytelling, and of the philosophical aspects of the Force, if you're into that sort of thing. You can use this understanding for many things both in terms of writing in general and in the Star Wars universe specifically. In some ways, studying Jedi hunters is like checking the Force for weak spots. If you're of a Kreia-like mindset, you could use that to devise methods of attacking and destroying the Force, but that's not all you can do. You could also use the knowledge to bend the Force to your will. Writing characters around that knowledge is an intriguing exercise. Plus, it's not like anything you come up with this way could possibly be worse than Disney's shit.

>>12479

>that one time they sent a bunch of diplomats and librarians to confront an army of battle droids.

That was, I believe, an unprecedented (at least within living memory) crisis situation, apparently severe enough to justify grabbing everyone old enough to swing a lightsaber and frog-march them aboard the nearest Consular-class cruiser. Additionally, they had extensive infantry, armor and air support en-route, so it wasn’t as if they were attempting to fight a conventional army with just a few hundred Jedi armed only with melee weapons.

>the whole setting is based on the Force

The Force is certainly a central element of SW, but I think inflating it to the point of being the whole of the setting creates a kind of narrative tunnel vision which weakens the story, with all of those interesting soldiers, smugglers, scavengers, scoundrels, aliens and other characters that fleshed out the universe inevitably ending up playing second banana to the Jedi or Sith (or else having to *become* Jedi/Sith themselves to stay relevant).

>doesn't diminish the accomplishments of those who take advantage of their lack of knowledge to defeat them

That seems like damning with faint praise, as if a Jedi/Sith-killer stands no chance without a “lack of knowledge” on the part of his adversaries.

>studying Jedi hunters is like checking the Force for weak spots.

I’m of the opinion that George Lucas never intended Force-users to be as broken as some authors write them. There are numerous moments across all six of his films that seem to indicate as much.

>>12481

>That seems like damning with faint praise, as if a Jedi/Sith-killer stands no chance without a “lack of knowledge” on the part of his adversaries.

A krayt dragon has no military knowledge, yet it's still considered an accomplishment to kill one because of their sheer power. Supposing that a krayt dragon somehow acquired military knowledge, it'd be nigh-impossible to kill. Someone who has both superpowers and normal combat skills is inherently stronger than someone who only has the latter. Therefore it's reasonable to assume some deficiency in the supers' combat training in cases where they lose to someone without superpowers.

>>12484

>Therefore it's reasonable to assume some deficiency in the supers' combat training in cases where they lose to someone without superpowers.

This is the kind of non-thinking that gets people killed. “He can’t POSSIBLY defeat me! I have superpowers and MILITARY KNOWLEDGE!”

>>12487

If you're up against someone who has the exact same training you have and twice as many weapons to choose from, taking them head-on is almost always a bad idea. Fighting Force users without Force powers is basically asymmetrical warfare, because the other side just plain has more capabilities. No competent military commander would order their soldiers to fight superpowered beings without having serious terrain advantage, vastly superior numbers, or another tide-turning factor in their favor. All other things being equal, the side with superpowers and military training should always win. If they don't, their training obviously wasn't good enough. People with powers can develop hubris from thinking their training is better than it is, but there's another kind of non-thinking that also gets people killed, and that's thinking that honor, valor and good tactics will let you win when you just don't have the necessary firepower and equipment. Competent military commanders know when they're overmatched and need to retreat. The Jedi didn't have very many of those, though. They grew arrogant and thought they could beat anyone just because they had Force powers, so they neglected military training, enabling people without Force powers to defeat them.

>>12484

>Supposing that a krayt dragon somehow acquired military knowledge, it'd be nigh-impossible to kill.

you could probably just shoot it with a really big gun

>>12484

>Supposing that a krayt dragon somehow acquired military knowledge

Why didn't Sheev think to clone himself into a krayt dragon body?

>>12505

That applies to anything, though.

>>12551

Probably because it's easier to do all that political wheeling and dealing he does as a human.

>>12567

Could pelvic-based laserdick combat actually work without it looking totally ridiculous? And I'm speaking of in a possible setting where the Schwartz only manifests its power through your dong. Could the Schwartz even be used for raping bitches as effectively as it can be used to destroy ones balls?

>>12567

>I am your father's, brother's, nephew's former roommate.

Never payed attention to this line before, doesn't this make Helmet Lonestsar's former roommate?

>>12575

Either that or Lonestar has a brother he doesn't know about. But still, a revelation like that deserves its own Spaceballs novel. Shame they didn't have their own comical parody EU outside of that shitty cartoon that used to be on G4.

Trakata is the best lightsaber form.

>"Oh, you want to block? Oops, looks like I toggled my blade."

It is the master troll of lightsaber combat.

>>12586

Its pretty brilliant honestly, but some media shows lightsabers toggling at varying speeds. Can the toggling speed be altered much like a saber can be customized?

>>12586

It gets even better when you start bringing the Force into it. Reach out and depress the activation stud on your opponent's saber at (in)opportune times for maximum lulz.

I'd like to talk about Trispzest, but there isn't enough room left in this thread for that. Maybe in the next one we can talk about aerial lightsaber combat, or other odd locations to have a lightsaber duel, like underwater or in zero-g.

>>12601

>enough posts

Why not? Isn't the bump limit 500 posts?

>>12609

No. 300.

Bordo, can't you do something about this?

>>12610

Check the sticky, Bordo pulled through. Can we have that write up, swordplay-anon?

I see the bump limit has been extended. Thanks to Bordo for that. So where would we start with lightsaber combat in a nonstandard environment?

>>12623

I don't remember anyone in here talking about a writeup besides my lightlance one, which has already been posted starting in >>10611.

>>12625

You wanted to talk about Trispzest, no? Definitely a very niche style (though I find it interesting that it's described as a variant of From VII and not a specialized form of Ataru).

>>12627

You'd definitely think there'd be more Ataru in it, but this isn't the first time they've said something about a lightsaber style that didn't make a lot of sense. I tend to think an aerial fighting style would be a lot like flying a fighter. You'd make a pass at the target and then come back around and try again. Hovering in place doesn't really give you anything you couldn't get on the ground.

Sadly, nobody ever really made any comments about the lightlance writeup, possibly because it's long. Though maybe with the higher bump limit people will have something to say.

>>12628

>Sadly, nobody ever really made any comments about the lightlance writeup, possibly because it's long. Though maybe with the higher bump limit people will have something to say.

Personally, I just read and enjoyed. It all sounds good to me, I just can't add very much meaningful to such an in-depth analysis because I don't know enough about how melee combat actually works.

>>12629

What, they didn't teach you about melee combat in Starfleet Academy? But you helped a bit as I mentioned in >>12475. Don't worry about not being able to add too much on account of lacking understanding, because even people who've trained in melee combat for a long time don't fully understand it. It can work many different ways in many different circumstances. There's no set procedure for how to defeat any given opponent. It's all about what works for you personally.

>>10613

>Cross-steps and sidesteps are vital, because they let you stay at the outer ring of defense while not forcing you to redirect your momentum as much as a backstep would, and whenever possible, you should do a cross-step or sidestep instead of a backstep. The only time this is hard is in confined spaces or against multiple opponents. In these situations, you should always attempt to isolate a few enemies at a time. There's no guaranteed tactic against multiple opponents, but your range will give you a better chance than most. With that said, it's time to talk bladework.

This part here is the most descriptive as to how this style would appear visually. I envision a lightlance user as drawing out enemies from the edge of a crowd, then tracing circles or semicircles around them as they sidestep and jab. Would look pretty nice, and polearms are really underused in fantasy media. Could also be possibly adapted to RPGs, though at the moment I don't know anyone interested in starting a game.

>>12651

>polearms are really underused in fantasy media

This is so true. When looking at Wookieepedia's article on the guard shoto, I was surprised to see that it first appeared right after TPM's release in one of the Darth Maul comics. You'd think we would have seen a lance a lot sooner. Yet another example of why this is the worst timeline.

Some points about spears coming from someone doing HEMA for a couple of years and has experimented with a couple of weapons.

- spears are ridiculously easy to handle. If you have some expierience with swords, especially longswords you can use a spear easilly. Little additional training required.

- spears are superior to swords in most situations, simply because of more reach. The spearman can hit (or feint) at any time extremely quickly, and the swordsman can do noting to reataliate because he is out of range. If the swordsman manages to bridge the distance though the spearman is fucked in most cases and can do little to defend himself and will be to slow to back off.

- If the swordsman has a shield the spearman has a much more difficult time and probably needs to focus on attacking the legs, if he can.

-Multiple spearmen will beat multiple swordsmen every time, even if the spearmen are worse fighters, provided they have enough room.

-Spears will have a hard time in confined spaces, where they loose their reach advantage.

Now for the reason Jedi don't use spears: They are very impractical out of combat. A (Light)saber can be easily carried at the belt, a spear cannot. Every time you want to move through a narrow doorway the spear is going to be in your way.

You want to enter a cockpit? Better toss your lightspear.

You want to blend in? Not with a lightspear.

You want to draw your weapon in a barfight? Not with a lightspear.

A better alternative imo would be something like a lightbajonet, like a walking stick that you can attach your lightsaber on, like Kazdan Paratus had in TFU if I remember correctly. It gives you the additional reach but only in situations when it's useful, without the disadvantages.

One more thing:

Lightsabers basically need to have weight at the blade. A saber so much balanced at the hilt would be pretty much useless for parrying anything, especially other blades. Balance towards the tip is necessary, so your opponent can't just smash through your parries.

The given lightsaberweights on wookieepedia seem to indicate to me, that this could even be the case.

Of course the blade balance would depend on the wielder then, a Makashi practitioner would use a more grip-balanced saber, while a Djem-So practitioner would want more weight at the blade.

>>12668

Good to have someone with HEMA experience here. My martial arts training is primarily in Eastern arts, so it's good to compare notes. Of course, spear handling doesn't differ too much from region to region, barring some very exotic and rare polearm types.

>spears are superior to swords in most situations, simply because of more reach.

Definitely the biggest draw, but sword users can use greatswords in lieu of normal-sized swords to even the odds a bit. Of course, you then have some of the same confined space problems a spear can have, and it's arguably worse for a greatsword because most of their techniques are slashing-based, and that requires a lot of room immediately around you, while spear thrusts only require room in front of you.

>The spearman can hit (or feint) at any time extremely quickly, and the swordsman can do noting to reataliate because he is out of range.

This is the other big trait of spears besides range. You can apply a great deal more torque on a spear shaft than on a sword hilt, and that means better handling.

>If the swordsman manages to bridge the distance though the spearman is fucked in most cases and can do little to defend himself and will be to slow to back off.

Using a longer spearhead can mitigate this somewhat, especially since unlike a conventional spear there's no weight penalty for it when your blade is pure energy. However, one of the ultra-close-range things a regular lightsaber can do better than a lightlance is Trakata. When most of the weapon's length is the shaft, there's no point to using Trakata, but it makes a big difference when most of the weapon's length is the blade. You could also switch to staff fighting methods when someone manages to get close, but Trakata could put a damper on this. I don't think Trakata has been given enough thought in general.

>If the swordsman has a shield the spearman has a much more difficult time and probably needs to focus on attacking the legs, if he can.

This is also true of 2-handed swords versus sword-and-shield. You could rotate your spearhead and turn it into a war scythe to get around shields, but it becomes harder to handle and you lose some range. Or you could use your spear with a shield of your own. But if you're going to just use a standard spear, it's going to be easier to get their legs than with a 2-handed sword.

>Multiple spearmen will beat multiple swordsmen every time, even if the spearmen are worse fighters, provided they have enough room.

>Spears will have a hard time in confined spaces, where they loose their reach advantage.

You have to get pretty confined before a sword gains a decisive advantage. If you're in a narrow hallway, for instance, a spear is still better. It's true that the more confined your space is the more range advantage you lose, but it's still possible to fight competently with a spear in the vast majority of situations. It just ceases to be the ultimate "fuck you, you can't hit me" button against other melee weapons in some. If you've got a formation of spearmen though, you're as good as gold.

>Now for the reason Jedi don't use spears:

All these reasons are valid because the Jedi are often sent on diplomatic missions or espionage missions where they can't haul a spear around. Lances would be a better choice for a more militaristic Force-using order that basically only exists to break faces. Still, we should definitely see more Jedi with double sabers or a basic blaster pistol at least.

>A better alternative imo would be something like a lightbajonet, like a walking stick that you can attach your lightsaber on

A takedown lance of some sort would be very helpful, but focusing on lance training is still of a more battle-oriented bent than the Jedi are supposed to be.

>>12681

>Of course, you then have some of the same confined space problems a spear can have, and it's arguably worse for a greatsword because most of their techniques are slashing-based, and that requires a lot of room immediately around you, while spear thrusts only require room in front of you.

Agreed. Interestingly though there are sources that deal with this specific problem, explaining how to use a Greatsword in confined spaces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNy_drriXs

I would say that Greatswords are way harder to handle than spears though.

>Using a longer spearhead can mitigate this somewhat, especially since unlike a conventional spear there's no weight penalty for it when your blade is pure energy. However, one of the ultra-close-range things a regular lightsaber can do better than a lightlance is Trakata. When most of the weapon's length is the shaft, there's no point to using Trakata, but it makes a big difference when most of the weapon's length is the blade. You could also switch to staff fighting methods when someone manages to get close, but Trakata could put a damper on this. I don't think Trakata has been given enough thought in general.

Agreed on spearhead lengh and Trakata, but I don't see staff fighting to be very promising. The best thing you can do when your opponent bridged the gap is use the butt of your staff, and he will expect that. Your biggest problem is your opponent can now grab your shaft (no homo) and control your movement.

>Lances would be a better choice for a more militaristic Force-using order that basically only exists to break faces. Still, we should definitely see more Jedi with double sabers or a basic blaster pistol at least.

…Like the Imperial Red Guard for example.

I have my problems with double lightsabers, maybe because double swords are almost never used in Western martial arts. Your might come to a different conclusion coming from an Eastern system, however I find the use of another sword in the off-hand not as useful most of the time and there are limited occasions where it actually helps anything. On the other hand having a free left hand might help in using the Force, grabing the opponents swordgrip or swordarm, grappling etc.

>>12687

>Interestingly though there are sources that deal with this specific problem, explaining how to use a Greatsword in confined spaces.

Sadly, I've seen few good sources of this type for spears. It's a bother because you need at least 3 sides of you open to use a greatsword, but only one to use a spear, so you'd think there'd be more spear stuff like this out there.

>The best thing you can do when your opponent bridged the gap is use the butt of your staff, and he will expect that. Your biggest problem is your opponent can now grab your shaft (no homo) and control your movement.

You could always resort to hand-to-hand, but since you have a two-handed weapon it's going to be harder. Staff fighting is going to be necessary at some point. But really, the best thing to do is never let them get close. My focus with the lightlance has been primarily on jabbing because of the obvious range advantage of a lance, but there were a few questions I never really addressed, like beating reverse grip users, who naturally have to get closer to attack unless they're dual-wielding and only using one of the sabers in reverse grip, like Ahsoka does. There also isn't enough detail about how the slashing motions work. In Chinese spearmanship, almost every slash could be mistaken for a parry, and almost everything you do is ultimately to set up a jab. Most of your successes in dueling as a spearman are going to be with properly lined up thrusts. But if you're against someone especially agile like Yoda, or a reverse grip user like Starkiller or Ahsoka, who are both very agile themselves, you need another option, and that option is going to have to be a more developed slashing game to keep all angles covered.

Part of me also thinks my writeup should have included more references to the obvious fact that a polearm's advantage is its greater reach, but I kind of feel like if you didn't know that, what are you even doing reading this? Maybe an extension/revision is in order with more about how to operate in confined spaces and use effective slashing techniques to keep those especially evasive, slippery foes from getting away and getting through your guard.

>I have my problems with double lightsabers, maybe because double swords are almost never used in Western martial arts. Your might come to a different conclusion coming from an Eastern system, however I find the use of another sword in the off-hand not as useful most of the time and there are limited occasions where it actually helps anything.

The double saber idea comes mainly from the fact that most enemies will be using blasters, and from a need to carry more than just a single lightsaber to deal with anti-lightsaber weapons, while still maintaining that Jedi constraint of not going for long arms. I don't really do dual-wielding myself.

Also, do you know anything about how to use a tonfa, or know of anyone who does? I'm guessing not because the tonfa is an Eastern weapon, but you're the only other person who's come in here who's said anything about having any real martial arts experience.

>>12689

>Sadly, I've seen few good sources of this type for spears. It's a bother because you need at least 3 sides of you open to use a greatsword, but only one to use a spear, so you'd think there'd be more spear stuff like this out there.

There are quite a few on quarterstaff, which might even be a better comparison, since one will also strike and not only stab with it.

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Staff_Weapons

As I already said, the (Light)spear would probably handle similar to the (Light)sword, As the 15th century German manuscript MS 3227a states:

>Who will learn to fight with the staff he shall first before all know and mark that a staff shall rightly be twelve spans long, and that the fighting with the staff is taken from the sword, and as one fights with the sword so he fights also with the staff; and the principals that there pertain to the sword such as, Before, After, Braveness, Quickness, Cunning, Prudence ect… they pertain also to the staff.

>like beating reverse grip users

Could you explain to me what would be the advantage of a reverse grip in sword use? I know it from daggers, and that there are some advantages there, but with sword it seems completely retarded to me. It sacrifices leverage, feeling, force and an enormous amount of reach for what exactly? It's usage in movies I could only explain through ignorance and that it looks cool.

>Maybe an extension/revision is in order with more about how to operate in confined spaces and use effective slashing techniques to keep those especially evasive, slippery foes from getting away and getting through your guard.

Yes, imo that would be the way to go, also when you need to apply close combat techniques.

>The double saber idea comes mainly from the fact that most enemies will be using blasters, and from a need to carry more than just a single lightsaber to deal with anti-lightsaber weapons, while still maintaining that Jedi constraint of not going for long arms. I don't really do dual-wielding myself.

Okay that might be, however having something like a "backup" weapon doesn't seem to fit the Jedi attitude towards a very religious "this weapon is your life" approach either.

>Also, do you know anything about how to use a tonfa, or know of anyone who does? I'm guessing not because the tonfa is an Eastern weapon, but you're the only other person who's come in here who's said anything about having any real martial arts experience.

Sorry, no.

>>12696

>having something like a "backup" weapon doesn't seem to fit the Jedi attitude towards a very religious "this weapon is your life" approach either.

NJO Jedi were a lot more utilitarian. Many carried blasters as backup weapons when they thought they might need them, and they usually didn't wear robes outside of ceremonies.

>>12726

It would be very difficult to control; every time you made a lateral swipe and missed there's a chance of it curling around and hitting you. If you make a vertical swipe and miss the tips cuts into the ground and may or may not get lodged in there. Further, because of all the angular momentum the whip has once you're committed to a swing it's that much more difficult to reverse it. Such a weapon would stay in sword mode all the time except for some really niche circumstances.

>>12728

It wouldn't be hard to control at all for a force user. You could even keep the whip propelled in midair. It would require a lot of training and concentration, but it would prove a great weapon for force users and a great way to kill yourself if you're not.

>>12696

>There are quite a few on quarterstaff, which might even be a better comparison, since one will also strike and not only stab with it.

I'll have to take a look at that link, but you could also probably pull some slashing techniques from the saberstaff, as well as ordinary lightsaber forms and the little we've seen of the lightlance being used. The form I outlined could be seen as just one of many forms for the lightlance. It's a basic form that provides a foundation for other forms to build on, like Shii-Cho. It's more aggressive and fluid than a basic form tends to be, though. You could make a more defensive variant of it, but if you do that, you risk not pressing the attack enough to stop someone from getting inside your defenses. Juyo seems like the only form out of the classic 7 that's offense-heavy enough to apply to this, but the NJO fast and medium styles can both deliver a respectable volume of attacks.

>Could you explain to me what would be the advantage of a reverse grip in sword use?

Better defense is pretty much the only advantage. Reverse grip users can push other melee weapons aside better than a normal grip. This is something spearmen need to watch out for due to the shaft's length offering more torque. The enemy can take advantage of that too.

>Yes, imo that would be the way to go, also when you need to apply close combat techniques.

I'm open to suggestions on this.

>>12731

>saberstaff

I said earlier that the saberstaff and the lance don't really handle very much alike, and that's still true, but there's maybe a 10-20% overlap between the saberstaff and the lance. Adding that to some sword techniques might be enough for another form.

>>12696

I just remembered that I neglected something a reverse gripped normal lightsaber can do better, but it ties in to some extent with its aforementioned better defense. The fact that you lose reach means it can operate well in confined spaces where long weapons like greatswords and spears have a hard time, so that makes it doubly important to come up with better methods for the long weapons.

>>12736

>The fact that you lose reach means it can operate well in confined spaces

Anon, I have a little challenge for you - go pick up a handy pole/hockeystick/broomhandle and hold it reversed, then go into a hall and try to swing it without hitting the walls. You will find it is far far harder and clumsier to do so in a tight space than holding it conventionally.

>>12763

You can't really swing it in either case. When you get that close, it's pretty much a parrying dagger, which is meant to be held in reverse.

>>12755

Isn't that just a laser gun/particle beam gun packaged in a sword form factor? Not that I'm complaining, it's pretty cool.

>>12785

or you can stab

>>12791

You can always stab. That's a truism here because in a hallway, reach is king, so your only option to get past the point of your opponent's weapon if yours is shorter is to parry it.

>>12793

>Imo the reverse grip gives worse defence against upper and lower openings, and it makes your defence more passive, giving you not much to work with after you have deflected.

It does fine against upper openings, but not lower ones because your arms are farther away from the enemy's blade. The idea with reverse grip is that you can muscle inside their guard with it and then transition to hand-to-hand fighting. It's absolutely true that it offers you fewer options outside of this. However, upper and lower openings are rarely used with spears, so that makes it a good candidate for dealing with them. I think reverse grip is better as a single technique rather than an entire fighting style. Instead of always fighting with reverse grip, you should fight normally and then switch to it at opportune moments. If you're up against multiple opponents, reverse grip is a bad idea because of the loss of reach. The only exception to this might be dual-wielding with one sword forward and one reversed, and I'm not big on dual-wielding because a 2-handed weapon gives you more leverage. I doubt a 1-handed reverse grip could turn a spear aside with nearly as much ease, but I haven't explored the details of the 1-forward 1-reverse style.

>it implies that you basically make it a cover for your forearm, with wouldn't work with lightsabers as they would cut into said forearm.

Starkiller does that all the time and doesn't have that problem. Admittedly, Force powers probably help with this. With reverse grip in real life, you can only do this with a single-edged blade. This is why you only really see it with Japanese swords.

>>12800

>However, upper and lower openings are rarely used with spears, so that makes it a good candidate for dealing with them.

In my experience the superiority of the spear comes from the ability to switch very quickly between poking to the head and poking to the leg. You can move your speartip very quickly because you have a very long lever. This is made even worse by a reverse grip on the side of the swordsman. Normally he can have his weapon in front of him and defend against feints and changes only by wrist movements, whereas with a reverse grip he has to raise and lower his whole arm at any movement his opponent moves his spear.

On turning aside a spear: When gripping a sword normally in one hand I would be confident in succeed in this, because remember that, from the point where the weapons connect, the spearman is at the end of a very long lever, despite being two handed, whereas the swordsman will have this lever very close to his hand and will therefore be able to bring in much more power.

Do you have any sources on reverse gripped Japanese swords? I am still curious on how that would have worked out.

>>12804

>In my experience the superiority of the spear comes from the ability to switch very quickly between poking to the head and poking to the leg. You can move your speartip very quickly because you have a very long lever.

Heads and legs are much smaller targets than the chest. A competent opponent will dodge most thrusts directed to the head or legs. If you have to go for the legs, for instance because they have a shield, a slash is better.

>Do you have any sources on reverse gripped Japanese swords? I am still curious on how that would have worked out.

There are some good sources on the subject that can be found on the first few pages of Google search results (though you should be using StartPage or some other proxy search site because fuck Google).

https://martialtraveler.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/reverse-grip-or-zatoichi-style/

This is the very first result that comes up, and it explains why reverse grip is a close-in fighting method. In particular, it points out that the blade moves more quickly in reverse grip because it's no longer pivoting around your wrist, but instead around the blade's center of mass, so even though you have to move your whole arm instead of just pivoting the blade, the pivot goes faster. Realistically, you're still going to have to move your arm even with a normal grip to gain maximum leverage when defending against a polearm, so it's a wash in that respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt9iUNdgfZA

The second result is a video that demonstrates the basic form, though as I said earlier, it's generally better as a technique than a full form. This video also includes a link to Skallagrim's video on the subject, though I don't think he really gets reverse grip. Most people don't, and it's not common. I don't use it too much myself either. I'm only really interested in it because it presents a possibility of countering spears.

>>12488

This is kind of an aside, but on the subject of whose military is ultimately superior, I'm curious whether there's enough material to have a grand strategy thread about the Star Wars galaxy. There are already a couple of threads dealing with military tactics. In my view, the Empire only lost to the Alliance because they made a lot of stupid mistakes, and the same goes for the Mandalorian War. Before Revan took charge of the war effort, the Republic was getting its ass kicked despite having an immensely superior industrial base and more military materiel.

>>10613

>the three rings of defense

Afaik this is from Jet Kune Do, which mainly deals with unarmed and short range combat. Therefore it should be it is ill suited for a long arm such as a spear. Drawing from HEMA, I would instead give it something like five rings.

OUTFIGHTING

Also known as zufechten or largo in German and Italian longsword, for example. This is the distance where you cannot hit him and he cannot hit you. Some argue that it is the distance where you can hit him with a single passing step A regular step, rear foot becoming the front foot essentially. Short of the lunge which is used sparingly and at critical moments only, it is the longest step available as it offers the balance of long distance with control and maneuverability. as you strike at the same time and others argue that it is such that even if you take a passing step and strike, you will still be unable to hit them. This has to do with Indes and Fuhlen, with not over committing to an attack without knowing what he's going to do, but in this short reply it's far too complicated to properly explain.

Simply put, this is the range where neither can hit the other, but when either attacks and the other defends, you end up close enough that your weapons become entangled and if the other were to lose their weapon then they would be within distance to be struck down. It is the safest distance and generally where most of the time would be spent; you breathe and think here; you observe him and try to outwit him. You switch between guards and stances, mirroring him in a game of Rock, Paper & Scissors where there are more exceptions and loopholes than solid rules.

INFIGHTING

Also known as kriegen and stretto in German and Italian longsword. Here, even without taking a step or moving your feet at all, you could reach out and hit each other. Generally at this range, your weapons will be entangled, but you can't do stuff like punching or kicking them. What most people think of when they consider a sword fight. Footwork in an out of this range happens constantly, as both try to get an upper hand.

STRIKING DISTANCE

Here you can punch or kick them. Generally not the best idea, since you'll have to remove a limb from the weapon and lose leverage or you'll lose mobility and have poorer balance with only one foot on the ground, but it can be worth it if you have good timing and sense. A weak push at their elbow can cause their entire body to be turned around at a critical moment, giving you free range to their open back.

TRAPPING DISTANCE

At this range, you are so close that your weapons are completely entangled. Things like snaking your arm around theirs and doing a joint lock or throw become feasible. Watch out for headbutts and knee kicks to the groin.

GRAPPLING DISTANCE

Extremely close range, torsos are touching and weapons become difficult to use. You're also often on the ground, panting and wet with sweat with another man on top of you. Remember to say "No homo" just in case.

>>10614

>Shien

Don't get it, but sounds strange from the perspective of HEMA.

>>10615

>draw cuts

But why? Just push laser into squishy flesh; it sizzles just fine without drawing it through.

>>10616

Sounds very much like naginata-jutsu, which I am not a terribly big fan of.

>>10617

>>10618

Generally, you always open with a cut and then turn that into a thrust; either they don't parry and you should have an opening to thrust into, or; they parry and you strike them aside with the force of your blow, thus you can thrust, or; they parry and you don't get right of way, thus you pull back or strike from another angle.

As your kata shows, opening with a thrust directly leads to being forced parry in order to go into a slash, because you need to pull back the tip in order to be able to strike forward with it again.

Then again, I am quite heavy on Meyer and Fiore, so take it however you will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD93F03suMc

Eh, it's okay.

>>12816

The more the merrier. The bump limit was just raised to 500, so we're actually closer to the middle of the discussion than the end.

>Use the flat, dofus.

This works for blocking, but if you want to hit anything with it you need the blade.

>lightlance of over a thousand generations in MS Paint

The telescoping hilt is an interesting feature, but I'd be worried that doing it like that would make its outer shell thin enough that an enemy lightsaber might be able to chop through it even if it were built of cortosis or phrik. Lightsaber-resistant materials aren't completely invulnerable to lightsabers; they just don't get cut like butter.

>Generally not the best idea and overall a terrible idea for a complete style, but useful at times.

Very much agreed with this, but is it improved at all if you dual-wield and use reverse grip only with the offhand weapon?

>>12818

>outfighting

In the Star Wars universe, this is the range where people would be slinging Force powers and firing blasters, so it deserves more focus than in real martial arts.

>>12819

>But why? Just push laser into squishy flesh; it sizzles just fine without drawing it through.

Draw cuts aren't the only thing you can do, they're just a unique advantage of a lightsaber that makes it much easier to hit someone while you're reeling your weapon back if you didn't hit them with the initial attack.

>Sounds very much like naginata-jutsu, which I am not a terribly big fan of.

Why not?

>Generally, you always open with a cut and then turn that into a thrust; either they don't parry and you should have an opening to thrust into, or; they parry and you strike them aside with the force of your blow, thus you can thrust, or; they parry and you don't get right of way, thus you pull back or strike from another angle.

My preference for opening with a thrust is meant as a zoning tool to rapidly build momentum and put the opponent on the defensive, but that's certainly not the only valid way to fight. You could make a workable combo the way you describe here as well.

>As your kata shows, opening with a thrust directly leads to being forced parry in order to go into a slash, because you need to pull back the tip in order to be able to strike forward with it again.

The difference is the draw cut. Unlike in real-life spear fighting, pulling the tip back is another strike. This is another reason to open with a thrust, though I often prefer that even with normal weapons.

>Then again, I am quite heavy on Meyer and Fiore, so take it however you will.

Outside of YouTubers, the only HEMA authority I'm familiar with is George Silver. As I understand it, despite how long it's been since he was alive, he's still the standard for Western historical combat.

>>12815

> Heads and legs are much smaller targets than the chest. A competent opponent will dodge most thrusts directed to the head or legs. If you have to go for the legs, for instance because they have a shield, a slash is better.

No. You can't dogdge a thrust without bringing your weapon in because the body moves way slower than the hand (according to George Silver there is a time of the foot, of the body, of the arm and of the hand, the latter ones are always quicker than the former ones) What you could do is shift your leg backwards, but that won't help against a long range weapon.

Look at some youtube videos of freeplay vs spear, there is not much dodging there, you need to control the opponents weapon.

> it points out that the blade moves more quickly in reverse grip because it's no longer pivoting around your wrist, but instead around the blade's center of mass, so even though you have to move your whole arm instead of just pivoting the blade, the pivot goes faster.

No. First also with a normal grip you learn to always pivot your weapon arount the pivot point to gain speed, second you don't need to pivot to change direction, it's much faster to return your movement with a backhand strike.

>>12816

Ha, great to have more company.

>1) The weight and handling issues is negated by the lesser weight, 2) the shallow cuts from only using one hand is negated by the nature of the blade, 3) since no one ever actually does proper blade binds with a lightsaber, worrying about leverage in a bind is moot, 4) the lack of leverage when blocking or hitting is mostly mitigated by the fact that other lightsabers don't have weight either.

It feels like you come from longsword or some two handes weapon, since all your points come back to wielding a one handed sword. This isn't the problem though with dual wielding. As you will know one handed sword use was way more common and enduring in most cultures, including the West, whereas two handed swords were used comparatively short.

The problem with dual wielding is that it fucks up your body mechanics and positioning and that your offhand sword is more inhibitingly in your own way than it is actually useful. You can use both your weapons separately, but this will limit your attack pattern a lot. There is a reason why in dual wielding the offhand weapon was much shorter most of the time.

The problems dual wielding has are not at all nullified by lightsabers.

Considering the weight: Wookiepedia says 1 kg on total weight, but I've heard between ,5 and 2kg. All this mass in the handle would make it really clunky, so I suspect there must be some weight to the blade. Another problem would be that any vibroblade user could just smash through your parade with such a gripheavy weapon.

>See: https://youtu.be/eDP2maXCzt4?t=2m31s

Notice that he has his main hand in a normal grip and only his left hand is reversed at the pommel. This is something different to me, especially since in longsword the left hand should always be rather flexible in general.

Nice design on the lance, it kinda depends on how well the telescope works but apart from that, thats what i would use as well. Alternatively a dual phase lightsaber, that can be used like a messer or like a rapier.

<draw cuts

>But why? Just push laser into squishy flesh; it sizzles just fine without drawing it through.

I think the point is to make covering blows, which push cuts are generally to a lesser extent. Covering blows are important to avoid double hits, which cannot be afforded with lightsabers.

>Generally, you always open with a cut and then turn that into a thrust; either they don't parry and you should have an opening to thrust into, or; they parry and you strike them aside with the force of your blow, thus you can thrust, or; they parry and you don't get right of way, thus you pull back or strike from another angle.

This is true for swordplay in a medieval tradition, and all of longsword I guess, but you got thrust->cut a lot with later systems like in rapier and later sabre (both use cuts in front of the body, unlike what you might be familiar with). I would also apply it to a spear, especially with feinting, which you can do a lot, because your out of range opponent can't immediately punish you for it.

>In the Star Wars universe, this is the range where people would be slinging Force powers and firing blasters, so it deserves more focus than in real martial arts.

Fiore deals with opponents that throw stuff at you (like but not limited to force powers and blaster bolts), he names a guard and quite boldly states that it can deflect whatever the opponent throws at you, forgot the name though.

>>12651

I thought of a better image to describe what the style is supposed to look like. Think E. Honda from Street Fighter, except instead of a ton of punches it's spear thrusts. You'd get some parries and slashes mixed in there too, but overall it's a lot of stabbing while arcing around various people and/or things.

>>12824

>No. You can't dogdge a thrust without bringing your weapon in because the body moves way slower than the hand

That depends on how you're trying to dodge it. If you want to pivot, you need to bring the weapon in, but as you say, you don't need to pivot to change direction. Sidestepping or cross-stepping doesn't require you to bring your weapon in, and you can keep pressing forward while you're doing it. It should be noted that attacks to the head are more easily avoided than attacks to the legs because moving the head doesn't require shifting the overall body weight, but it takes less effort to dodge in general if you're already moving because of inertia.

One other thing I was taught is that in the event of any kind of weapon strike to the legs, a very short hop can work as a dodge. You don't leave the ground for more than a split second, but you can continue to apply pressure. The only part of your body that substantially changes height is your feet. You can also sometimes dodge a strike to the leg by doing a rolling step and/or a partial pivot and bending the knee. This is a very small movement, but it doesn't require much of a weight shift, and it can allow you to dodge just long enough to follow up with an attack. It's also what you're supposed to do when moving, which you really should be doing anyway.

I mentioned earlier that you're supposed to have your weight on your front foot in order to maintain your momentum, but depending on your surroundings that can make it hard to dodge low attacks, or any attacks for that matter. However, if you're up against another spearman, having the weight on the back foot so you can move your front foot away quickly won't do any good because his weapon is longer. There's a possibility of adopting Zui Quan-style footwork for truly robust evasion, but that only works if you have enough room to perform it. A more expansive treatment of footwork is needed, because there are pros and cons to any weight distribution. I picked out a front-focused method in an effort to produce a relentlessly offensive style, but that's not always the best choice.

>>Look at some youtube videos of freeplay vs spear, there is not much dodging there, you need to control the opponents weapon.

I've seen some of those, and in most of them the fighters tend not to move very much. Moving too much would make the style more like Ataru, which I'm trying to avoid by making most of the movement forward-focused instead of having you constantly shift direction. This is another area in which Yoda can get away with something nobody else can. Being smaller doesn't just mean having more room to maneuver, it also means weighing less and thus being able to change direction faster.

It may have been an exaggeration to say that most competent fighters would dodge leg strikes. Methods of dodging leg strikes do exist, but controlling the opponent's weapon should always take precedence. In many cases, the correct method of dodging is to do a subtle movement along with a subtle parry to give yourself just enough clearance to avoid taking a hit while transitioning into an attack.

>>12824

>smash through

Buffalo's who know naught but strength shall be dispensed off with the art and not through brute force, as is proper for a swordsman. The harder you hit me, the harder my colpa di villano/ablauffen will be coming right back at you. And then when you try to avoid hitting my sword I'll just durchwechseln and laugh myself silly when you've walked into my sword. Or if you think to push through my bind, thinking my one hand weaker than your two, then I'll collapse it and make like Fiore and pommel you in the face.

>only his left hand in reverse on the longsword

It's a matter of debate; artwork shows both ways and the mechanics work both ways. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ihEZGbcFf8

>The problems dual wielding has are not at all nullified by lightsabers.

I disagree and would duel with sharps over the matter with confidence.

>Fiore deals with opponents that throw stuff at you

Sagittaria something something; Archer's guard iirc. it's the one with the sword held low and the back presented to the opponent diagonally.

>>12826

>attacks to the head are more easily avoided

Falls under time of the hand and body under Silver's classification, which always loses to the time of the hand.

>shifting the overall body weight

Would be time of the hand, body and foot iirc, which is the slowest of all, yes.

>a very short hop can work as a dodge

Yes, raising the foot tends to work but it depends on the weapon. WIth longswords and sabre it's possible, but with sword and buckler if they have an opening to your legs, you're gonna get hit whether you try to dodge or not. Just a matter of timing.

Generally, any motion upwards is BAD because it means until your feet hit the ground again you are a sitting duck in terms of mobility. Jumping around gets you dead.

Generally, as seen with Scheitelhau the school of taught against leg hits was "that means they're wide open above; take their head".

>spear; the fighters tend not to move very much

That's because you don't need to. Reach dominates, that simple.

>>12827

>In general, it's been sportified to hell, like kendo.

As have virtually all martial arts. The UFC has corporate sponsorships to uphold, so they have to put on a nice show. Most of the techniques used in UFC don't look anything like a real fight. It has too much emphasis on grappling, which is risky in a street fighting situation.

>>12828

>Generally, any motion upwards is BAD because it means until your feet hit the ground again you are a sitting duck in terms of mobility. Jumping around gets you dead.

Your hop is supposed to be short enough to mitigate this anyway, but if you're moving beforehand instead of standing in place, you can avoid this problem.

>The problem with thrusts tends to be that they're a zero sum game, kind of. You either hit them or they push you off line and leave you open for a counter. It's not the best opening move, unless you're really reading them 100% correctly and just plan to kill them with an absetzen/ansetzen.

>That's because you don't need to. Reach dominates, that simple.

It seems that you favor an overall more defensive approach to the spear. The approach I prefer is to feint like it's going out of style because doing so offers exactly the reading opportunity you describe. Once you've got a read on them, you can get the perfect stab in. Erratic movements work to this end, and stop your own intentions from being read. Of course, I don't always open with a thrust because always doing the same thing makes you predictable and thus counterable.

>>12827

>passing footwork

which makes the whole dual wielding more pointless

>It's the same as with sword and buckler; the hands are one and support one another until you find an opening and then you just kill them.

I do a lot of sword and buckler (i.33) and it doesn't compare to dual swords a lot, because a buckler doesn't hinder your sword movement that much and works different in a lot of other ways, too.

>Look into Liegniczer's Sword & Buckler or Wing Chun; the hands move as one until they can spring apart. It's difficult to explain in text, but essentially the lead hand doesn't go past the rear hand so much so that you're open or vulnerable.

Out of curiosity we fought sword and buckler vs dual swords in my club and s&b came out superior because of this. The second sword doesn't give very much more offensive potential and the s&b guy can manage to separate his opponents weapons quite often, which is a death sentence and a commmon technique in i.33

>Limits are good

So according to your logic a one armed, paraphlegic fighter would be unbeatable. It's true that it's a good idea to keep it simple, but that doen't mean that you should limit yourself.

>There are numerous examples of symmetrical weapons used; double rapier in Germany

I can't speak for East Asia, but at least in Germany (and Italy with the Bolognese school) double rapier has never got out of a very experimental niche weapon combination that was invented to show off. Comparable to Talhoffer's shields and Mair's flail or scythe. There was single rapier and there was rapier and dagger (or buckler, cloak etc.) Let's not make assumptions from show offs but from actual Martial Art.

>That is literally the opposite of clunky, when it comes to sword design. Look at the third picture and what it shows you about an italian longsword. The more weight is distributed near the handle, the easier it is to control and swing. But that makes it weak, as if hitting someone with a rolled up newspaper, so you need it as forward as possible to give a cut some oomph. WIth a lightsaber, this is entirely a non-concern; it's a fucking laser sword, kinetic energy is meaningless for damage.

Fair enough. You still need to feel your blade though, or better: You need to feel where your point is and where it is heading, and this becomes increasingly difficult with litteraly gripbalanced swords.

>Buffalo's who know naught but strength shall be dispensed off with the art and not through brute force, as is proper for a swordsman. The harder you hit me, the harder my colpa di villano/ablauffen will be coming right back at you. And then when you try to avoid hitting my sword I'll just durchwechseln and laugh myself silly when you've walked into my sword. Or if you think to push through my bind, thinking my one hand weaker than your two, then I'll collapse it and make like Fiore and pommel you in the face.

You speak about pushing through when gaining the center. You still need to parry attacks on your body though and when you can't do that you have a problem. Think of parrying swordstrikes with a bamboocane or a modern fencing foil - it's hardly possible, and neither is something like a Fiore pommel, because in order to pull that of you need to have voided an attack first and be in a at least somehow egalitarian bind. Next time in your club just try a Fiore move against a longsword with a fencing foil, I dare you.

>I disagree and would duel with sharps over the matter with confidence.

Disagreement taken, but let's not go into internet tough guying here. My point comes from my culture (European) clearly rejecting two equal dual wielded (longer) swords, and it got around a lot to test this notion without changing it. As I said, I fought quite competent fighters with two swords with my sword and buckler and I fought experienced sabre+boarding axe (there is some source on that) with single sabre and felt myself at a disadvantage in neither case.

>Sagittaria something something;

Yeah, that must have been it.

>Generally, any motion upwards is BAD because it means until your feet hit the ground again you are a sitting duck in terms of mobility. Jumping around gets you dead.

Yep, also you need to jump really high to avoid getting hit between knee and lower body, where most attacks on the lower openings hit.

>>12829

but if you're moving beforehand instead of standing in place, you can avoid this problem.

You have already telegraphed were you are going at the moment when you left off, there is no way to change that mid air, except if you can levitate. This makes you predictable and pays with a lot of tempo.