No.5217 [View All]
How much of the EU did these new episodes really undo?
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No.5725
>>5645
Its always pathetic when one sees how pathetic the content in the Canon section is compared to Expanded Universe.
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No.5727
>>5638
I remember the sperg who runs the Star Wars timeline decided to declare all of the Clone Wars Mandalorian episodes non-canon. If it made Travis' cunnilingus crew ass angry, it vindicates its existence. Lucas did nothing wrong.
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No.6750
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No.6751
>>5243
Vong was shit but I really do like the idea of the Empire being formed, and superweapons like the Death Star being built, to defend against a mysterious extragalactic threat
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No.6757
>>6751
>>5243
>>5262
>>5264
>>5270
I take it I shouldn't bother reading the Vong war books then? I've read most of the Legacy era novels (not the comics) and am starting on the New Republic era with Thrawn, so I've already gone around it by pure coincidence.
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No.6758
>>6757
The problems surrounding the Vong is largely their aesthetic and the time in which they were written. They're essentially edgy BDSM lords from the late 90's. All of their "tech" is biological and they look fucking weird; they use whips and restraints and pain devices and lethal spores and stuff like that. People who don't like the Vong will tell you they just don't seem to "fit" in Star Wars much at all, and they're sort of right. The people who like the Vong storyline will defend this because they're extragalactic invaders, so they should seem weird as shit - and they're sort of right too. They also take a measure of inspiration from the Mongol hordes, which is somewhat appropriate given the role they play in the story. I can't really comment regarding the actual events that take place during the Yuuzhan Vong storyline since I never bothered reading any of it.
Are you referring to the new Thrawn book, or the original Thrawn novels?
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No.6762
>>6757
It also spawned another cancer in Star Wars EU Darth Caedus. You think Kylo Ren is bad? This guy still takes the cake my memory is rusty but the worst is
>Younger brother dies and takes his GF
>is tortured for a while
It gets a little foggy but I know he’s the one who kills Mara Jade and fucks up Kyle Katarn badly.
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No.6764
>>6762
caedus sucked alright but considering kylo ren was a ctrl+v of it, was he really any better? at least the eu gave us some ebul wimminz, disney can't even give us any female villains.
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No.6768
>>6758
>Are you referring to the new Thrawn book, or the original Thrawn novels?
Originals. Read Outbound Flight years ago, and Thrawn seemed like an interesting character.
>>6762
Yeah, I read that arc. Been a while, but I remember Caedus being meh but the series as a whole being all right. Also, did the torture really play that much into his fall? If I remember correctly Jacen looked into the future, and every timeline in which he didn't fall ended in his killing Luke. So he chose the dark side out of edgy, pseudonoble fatalism.
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No.6769
>>6762
Actually I'm going to go against the grain here and say I liked jacens fall to the dark side. He reminded me much more of Vader and his philosophy of ruling the galaxy to preserve it rather than for personal power appealed to me actually.
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No.6772
>>6757
>I've read most of the Legacy era novels
If you enjoyed the Legacy novels, then the NJO books shouldn't bother you. In terms of quality that is.
At least the NJO had good authors like Luceno, Stackpole and Stover involved, while Legacy had Traviss. Agents of Chaos, Edge of Victory and Traitor are actually good reads for example. On the other hand it's twice as many books as Legacy of the Force, many of which are just filler, especially if you are unfamiliar with the preceding New Republic era.
A lot of the edginess that people complain about can be attributed to Del Rey. The books that were published under them were a lot darker than the early Bantam stuff. For example their Clone Wars stuff (Shatterpoint was the SW equivalent of Heart of Darkness) was almost as gritty as the NJO, but for some reason people still liked it.
IMO the actual problem with the NJO lies with its ties to the Original Trilogy and the early EU which were very lighthearted in comparison. If you were already attached to the early EU you had to deal with the Vong coming over and fuck up a lot of familiar places and characters, not to mention a drastic change in tone. And if you weren't familiar with any of it, the series was just hard to get into.
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No.6774
>>6758
>The problems surrounding the Vong is largely their aesthetic and the time in which they were written. They're essentially edgy BDSM lords from the late 90's. All of their "tech" is biological and they look fucking weird; they use whips and restraints and pain devices and lethal spores and stuff like that
Not only that, but their biowank, their villain-Sue status for most of their run.
Suddenly a refugee population have the numbers and capability of overrun a galactic regime for years. Their biowank was sometimes unbearable.
Blasters? Their crab armor can withstand
Turbolasers? Their coral ships or whatever can take it
Shields? Nothing their molten rocks can deal with
Hyperspace? No problema, their big brains things can bend space or something, also they can generate gravity and interdict you, just because
Your army have blasters and artillery? And? The warrior caste will fuck you up up, close ande personal
Jedi and Force users? Vong are not affected for most of Force powers
Seriously, that's why i hated that shit. Their "we are pain worshippers space muslims in a galactic jihad" are the least of their problems.
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No.6790
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This conflict is gone. There is no more nuance. Neither side has as much reason to utterly detest and hate each other, as the Remnant and the New Republic did. Even the scale is now missing.
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No.6797
>>6774
>>6758
They are nothing but Warhammer 40k aliens in stars wars
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No.6803
>>6797
Yeah, now that you mention it they do have a lot of similarities with the Dark Eldar. Never really noticed that before.
I think if the Vong as a race had been designed a bit differently the overall plot concept could have been saved. Or maybe just replace them with something like the original Sith Empire, or maybe even a less retarded version of SWTOR's Eternal Empire.
I think a fun alternate history would have been the Vong (or whatever Vong replacement you'd like) arriving at the second Death Star right as the Battle of Endor was starting to get serious, and the Empire and the Rebellion had to fight them off. Maybe in that scenario Sheev could have orchestrated the battle just to have all the galaxy's major fleets in one place to deal with the initial invasion. They'd still lose against the invasion but maybe with the near-complete Death Star and all those capital ships they could have blunted the spearhead of the invading force and bought themselves time. That could have led into a cool new storyline where the Rebels were forced into uneasy alliance with the still-living Empire, with each side trying to subtly fuck the other over while still fighting off the new enemy.
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No.6806
>>6803
I'll be honest, I'd read/watch the fuck out of that Infinities story. Wanna try writing something of it?
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No.6816
>>6806
yeah actually I do. I used to write a lot in my spare time but that was years ago. maybe I'll start on that after work today.
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No.6817
>>6816
Noice.
For added fun, maybe old Sheevers turns the battle into a display of why the Sith deserve Galactic stewardship to Luke and Vader. Perhaps Luke gets away, but is deeply shaken by what he's seen. Perhaps he joins. Up to you.
>>6797
>>6774
The thing is, though, the only other alien invaders that I know of are the Nagai and the Ssi-Ruuk, neither of which were very imposing or memorable as a large-scale threat (unless I recall wrongly). For better or worse, the Vong are distinct, and they are remembered as a significant threat.
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No.6819
>>6817
Yeah I had thought about that actually. Sheev uses the opportunity to lure Luke into his presence, then shows him the invasion.
Rather than Luke watching helplessly as the Rebel fleet is destroyed by the Empire, he instead watches helplessly as events unfold in such a way that they justify the existence of his most sinister and powerful enemy. I think an event like that does way more to challenge a character than combat does.
"Do you see, 'Jedi'? Do you see now that I am the only one that has done what is necessary? Take your saber, boy - strike me down! I am unarmed." Luke hesitates, and Palpatine's laughter echoes through the throne room. "You can't!" His smile is a decaying yellow serration set beneath a corpse's maniacal stare. "You can't. You know you will doom your friends if you do. Now, young Skywalker, at the beginning of the end of all things, you finally understand."
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No.6825
>>6817
I just dont like the entire
>DA EMPEROR WAS A GOOD GUY ALL ALONG
Sheev was pure fucking dark side wanting to protect the galaxy from some threat is nice and all but mass genocide and slavery to get there does not justify your cause.
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No.6826
>>6825
You don't have to be a good guy to not want to rule over ashes.
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No.6860
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No.6863
>>6860
>390 dislikes since last year
My how times have changed.
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No.6866
>>6863
950 likes, too. Rian Johnson seems to have burned both traitors and naive newbies from TFA.
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No.6872
>>6825
I honestly fucking hated the whole "Sidious was building Death Stars because he foresaw the Vong invasion and wanted to save the galaxy" shit. The thing about Sidious is that he was, for the most part, designed and written as pure, uncompromising evil and works best as that kind of character. Adding in some kind of bonus stupid shit that retcons him into an "unsung hero" of sorts does no favors to the lore and themes of Star Wars and only ends up placating the "EMPIRE WUZ RIGHT" retards.
It's like if Sauron turned out to have been building a huge army to overrun Middle-Earth in order to unite it as one under his banner against some forgotten evil that he foresaw returning in, say, 300 years time.
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No.6874
>>6872
I liked almost everything in the EU, both the good and the bad, but the Vong story arc was the one thing I could not stand. I mean, their designs and the idea of them as extra-galactic alien invaders is a very interesting concept that could've worked and deserved a rewrite, but what we got was definitely a way to fuck over the setting with pure edge material. Still, even the what the Vong did seems like nothing now compared to what Disney has done, but if I could choose, I'd rather have neither Disney nor the Vong.
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No.6877
>>6874
best version of the vong would be one where they aren't so op, specifically the force-resistant nonsense.
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No.6879
>>6877
Pretty much this. And I really can't stand their fucking up of so many planets. Coruscant's vong attack was cool and brought greenery back to the planet, everything else was unnecessary desecration of a well known setting that would make it impossible for future writers to expand upon it since a shit load of things went extinct and planets were ravaged, and this shit isn't even fixed until a hundred years later.
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No.6880
>>6872
"Pure evil" villains who act evil simply for the sake of it are the lowest and most boring tier of all villains. Even Hitler had motivations more complex than that.
Even if you ignored or removed Palpatine's prediction of the Vong invasion, there are plenty of ways you could give him motivation beyond simply "he wants to rule everything with an iron fist cause he's evil lol". I think you have an oversimplified, child-like understanding of the human condition and the realities of governance.
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No.6881
>>6877
It would have been more interesting if they just had a unique interpretation and implementation of the Force that made them particularly adept at fighting against Jedi or Sith. Something that doesn't make them invincible, just dangerous, like an extreme form of Force Stealth or ways of subverting other's Force powers.
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No.6907
>>6880
Pure evil doesn't have to be one-dimensional evil. There are many ways to add depth to a character besides "muh unsung hero." Sheev is a good example of this; he's total and unadulterated evil, but his motivations go beyond torturing for the hell of it. Everything he does is to further the Sith philosophy. The Galactic Empire's purpose was to give the Sith more resources to experiment further with the dark side.
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No.6931
>>6907
Don't forget, as instructed by Plagueis, Palpatine believes that he deserves to rule the Galaxy. He is the culmination of the Sith Order and its philosophy. It is only right that a Lord of his potency should be Emperor above all. That some jumped up nomads from outside his dominion should try and take it from him is utterly unacceptable.
>>6819
You still good to go, anon? That was a great little excerpt.
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No.6955
Han and Leia's kid not being a massive mystery meat lookin homo for one
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No.7071
>>6880
>"Pure evil" villains who act evil simply for the sake of it are the lowest and most boring tier of all villains.
Tell that to Sauron, Voldemort, Darkseid, etc. Palpatine is a malevolent force of nature, that's his main purpose.
>Even Hitler had motivations more complex than that.
>implying Hitler was a villain
>Even if you ignored or removed Palpatine's prediction of the Vong invasion, there are plenty of ways you could give him motivation beyond simply "he wants to rule everything with an iron fist cause he's evil lol".
What's wrong with "he wants to rule everything with an iron fist because of a lust for power"? There are real-life people who have had motivations like that.
>I think you have an oversimplified, child-like understanding of the human condition and the realities of governance.
Or perhaps I have a deeper appreciation for the thematic and storytelling role of Sidious in Star Wars lore and how it was conceptualized. But by all means, go ahead with your "I am 16 years old and I just realized that shades of grey exist" comments.
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No.7101
>>7071
>Tell that to Sauron, Voldemort, Darkseid
Listing three boring villains from shitty, overrated franchises isn't helping your argument
>implying Hitler was a villain
You got me there
>But by all means, go ahead with your "I am 16 years old and I just realized that shades of grey exist"
I would prefer shades of grey to the empty black-and-white absolutism you're asking for. "lol he's bad" is not good writing.
I'm also not sure why Palpatine knowing of, and wanting to repel, the Vong invasion is somehow mutually exclusive with him also wanting to rule. Given that he is the sole continuation of the Sith tradition, and the Sith were banished to the Unknown Regions for a time, I think his knowledge of the Vong (however vague that knowledge would be) is believable. It would also be an excellent explanation as to why he was obsessed with building superweapons like the Death Star.
I think the core issue here is that you seem to believe that Palpatine wanting to fight off the Vong invasion makes him some sort of "unsung hero," which is not the case at all. I think it just makes him someone with grand ambitions who wants to hold on to the empire he's created.
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No.7103
>>7071
The fedora is tight on this one.
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No.7114
>>7071
>Tell that to Sauron, Voldemort, Darkseid, etc. Palpatine is a malevolent force of nature, that's his main purpose.
Sauron and Melkor weren't interesting villains. They weren't meant to be, as they were stand-ins for Lucifer within Tolkiens mythology. Voldemort is even more bland, he's literally lich Hitler. Also, what >>7101 said.
>>7101
>It would also be an excellent explanation as to why he was obsessed with building superweapons like the Death Star.
While I don't dispute the Vong explanation, I thought the reason for the Death Star (as well as things like the Grand Admirals) was a method for the Emperor to retain a more personal hold on the military, and preventing the Admirals and Moffs from taking it from him.
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No.7120
>>5645
I thought the Mando's were influenced by the Celts?
>>5648
The whole Mandalorians feeling guilty reminds me more of modern Germany where they have this extreme guilt because of Hitler's actions. Despite Hitler being Austrian but no one ever brings that up for some reason
>>6803
>>6819
That sounds awesome!
>>6881
So they would negate the force in their presence like those Ysalimiri but could still be vulnerable to physical attacks perhaps?
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No.7165
>>7120
Vong were vulnerable to force lightning, but not TK applied directly against them or mind/senses meddling. You can't force choke a vong, but you can smash him by throwing a rock or something against it. Also the Vong doesn't repel the Force around them, they don't have an anti-Force bubble.
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No.9400
>>6819
Anon? Do you yet live? If nothing else, you can do this in pastebin.
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No.12365
>>5242
Except that it's not.
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No.12370
>>7101
>thinks Morgoth and Sauron weren’t interesting villains
Wat
>>7120
In later iterations of the EU, quite certainly, but the older, Tales of the Jedi-era alien ones (the Taung) arguably had more of a Mongol Horde sensibility. As for the German parallels with the Clone Wars versions, they certainly weren’t going for subtlety there, what with making the entire population blond, blue-eyed Nordic types (not that I minded *that* detail of itself; if SW can have a whole planet of black people, e.g. Haruun Kal, they can certainly have a whole planet populated exclusively by extreme Aryan phenotypes).
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No.12491
>>7101
>Listing three boring villains from shitty, overrated franchises isn't helping your argument
Thanks for confirming your shit taste.
>I would prefer shades of grey to the empty black-and-white absolutism you're asking for. "lol he's bad" is not good writing.
Yes, it is. I've already explained to you that Palpatine is supposed to be a literal manifestation of evil in Star Wars. That is his thematic purpose. Just because you follow the GRRM school of "I'm too clever for this theming shit." doesn't mean it's bullcrap. Darth Vader is supposed to be the grey villain. Darth Sidious is not.
>It would also be an excellent explanation as to why he was obsessed with building superweapons like the Death Star.
Except it's a needlessly stupid and complicated explanation for something that is already very simple: Palpatine wanted to built superweapons like the Death Star because it is an excellent deterrent to rebel scum and would provide a decisive tactical advantage. Who is going to fuck with you when you can literally blow up their planet at the touch of a button?
>I think the core issue here is that you seem to believe that Palpatine wanting to fight off the Vong invasion makes him some sort of "unsung hero," which is not the case at all. I think it just makes him someone with grand ambitions who wants to hold on to the empire he's created.
Except that is literally what Palpatine wanting to fight off the Vong invasion is ever used for - that he's an unsung hero in his own right that only took over the galaxy and genocided the Jedi because he wanted to protect it from the Vong all along. It completely fucks up his character for the sake of retarded fanboy fantasies.>>7101
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No.12504
>>12491
> It completely fucks up his character for the sake of retarded fanboy fantasies.
No it doesn't. Its fitting to him. The vong were potential rivals for conquest and threatened to mess with his plans, so wanting to build a superweapon is useful for both keeping the population in fear and keeping the "unknown" from ever threatening his rule. People seeing him as an unsung hero is exactly what he would want since it would make it easier for him to control the masses, much like how so many saps in the Republic Senate saw the Chancellor as a hero. Palpatine doesn't give two shits about anyone, only power and control matters to him, but trying to destroy rivals which in result makes people think he's a benevolent guardian spirit of the galaxy because of it, is something that's definitely within his scope of evil actions.
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No.14266
>>5217
The vong wars, legacy, the solo children, kyp durron, mara fucking jade skywalker!, Ben skywalker, kyle katarn, jagged fel, goram bevin, all of zhans stuff, the whole Jedi order, imperial remnant , and a fuck ton more, I absolutely detest what they've done and truly hope they all die of explosive gonorrhea
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No.14267
>>6774
>>6879
These are reasons I enjoyed the vong, they were very tough and new and it took more than a few Jedi to defeat, they were a true threat to everyone and everything,that took all of the galaxy to defeat, and yes a lot of stuff got fucked up but that's the idea it was a massive war that encompasses the entire SW galaxy so yeah that's what happens during suchis an event, think Europe after the world wars, place was totally wrecked everywhere you looked because of the size and level of those wats
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No.14479
>>5229
>>5229
>Hell, I'm glad they got rid of the old EU as it means that I won't have to find out characters like Kyle, Guri, Ben Skywalker or Lusa were actually genderfluid/space muslim/gay/trannies all along.
My sentiments exactly Anon.
The mouse can shit allover their shiney new cannon while I'm comfy playing Dark Forces and occasionally joking around in Edge of the Empire.
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No.14490
Nothing. Disney isn't canon.
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No.17274
>>6772
>implying traviss isn't one of the better eu authors
top notch meme
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No.17291
>>17274
She was good. It seems all the hate stems from that "3 million clones" incident and the infamous "unrecorded" dispute she had with some users on an SW forum over it that got her so much bad rep. If not for that, the meme wouldn't have existed. Its a shame since most just reject her works simply because of the name alone.
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