No.28183
Did SIdious ever actually instruct Vader on the Dark Side or the ways of the Sith in the same way Plagueis did before him? I have read a fair bit of expanded universe material on Vader, and it never shows the Emperor imparting anything more than vague truisms concerning the darker aspects of reality. We are privy to Vader's function and never his training.
I understand the Emperor's reluctance to withhold information and lore from the Hands, but isn't Vader supposed to be a Sith Lord?
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No.28184
Yes, he was but indeed it was always a gap in the plot. What we know is that Palpatine taught Vader how to speak sithese, gave him access to sith holocrons and that he nudged him to break his mental blocks to overcome his physical limitations.
And that's all as far i know.
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No.28188
Everyone under Palpatine's command was just another asset to him. He probably taught Vader as much as was convenient, while withholding things that might have lead to Vader challenge his power.
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No.28190
>>28184
>Palpatine taught Vader how to speak sithese
>gave him access to sith holocrons
>nudged him to break his mental blocks to overcome his physical limitations.
Interesting. Can you provide references?
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No.28199
>>28190
Not that anon but I think The Dark Side Sourcebook mentions it. An issue of Star Wars insider also mentions it, can't remember which one though, but I think it was after the 100th issue. Anyone remember which one?
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No.28205
If I remember rightly, Palps mostly strung Vader along. He also had no intention of letting Vader become more powerful than himself.
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No.28213
After his fight with Kenobi, Vader was crippled. Trapped in his cybernetic suit, he was unable to really surpass Sidious in actual ability. While Palpatine tested Vader, teaching him how to use the Darker aspects of the force such as Sith sorcery or Sith lightning wasn't an option because he was inherently crippled by his cyborg limbs. He was a failure to Palpatine, who began taking others on as his Hands and training Inquisitors instead. Obviously, this violates the Rule of Two, but I don't think Sheev ever had the intention of being surpassed. He had destroyed the Jedi, and his master and wasn't about to let Plagueis' mistake surpass him.
Of course, in the end it was his own downfall. If he instead had killed Vader, and taken on another as an apprentice, then Luke wouldn't have had any vector to redeem anyone and would most likely be cut down like the rest of the Jedi had been. By allowing Anakin to wallow in his own regret and self-pity for 20 years, he had doomed himself and his empire to civil war and death, throwing away 1000 years of planning that the Bainite line of Sith had done since the end of the New Sith Wars.
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No.28214
>>28205
It's more that Vader was strung along because after his crippling, it was physically impossible for him to ever become more powerful than Sheev. Not that Sheev would have ever voluntarily allowed someone to surpass him in power, but if Vader hadn't gotten deep-fried he would probably have been treated more like a genuine apprentice rather than an attack dog.
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No.28218
>>28213
>>28214
I see what you're getting at, but Vader was still incredibly powerful in the force. There's plenty of feats he accomplished, post cybernetic internment, that no other force user would be capable of. He was, after all, the chief executioner of the surviving Jedi, which in itself indicates that he still had superlative talent. Base lightning may have been off the table, but alchemy, sorcery and many other esoteric aspects of Sith teaching should still have been made a part of his repertoire over time - except we never see this.
I think it has more to do with the fact that we rarely see the teaching processes of either the Jedi or the Sith much at all, beyond very basic light-saber drills and a couple of pithy truisms, because this would necessitate a deeper exploration of the nature of the force (which most writers would want to stay away from). That, and it would also likely involve veering into the territory of certain very real philosophies (Nietzschean, Jungian, Zen, Stoic etc.) which most writers would also not want to touch with a seven foot barge pole.
I suppose I just feel it is a shame that no writer, either old or new, ever had the intellectual courage to at at least attempt to dive even a little deeper (aside from a few snippets in KOTOR II). There is a real market for it - philosophically challenging sci-fi does well with a certain niche group of people, and Star Wars is incredibly fertile ground for it. With the advent of the mouse, I doubt we'll get anything of the sort though. it really sucks.
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No.28220
>>28213
Seems strange that a person's body should limit their use of the force. What if Palpatine just told Vader that?
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No.28223
>>28220
According to the book "Dark Lord", Palpatine believed that Vader's limitations were more psychological than anything, even acknowledging that Vader couldn't call lighting and other fancy flashy stuff.
And indeed many of those limitations were, just remember that Vader could heal his lungs for moments with only his joy of breathing by himself breaking his dark side fueled meditation and healing. Vader never embraced the dark side as Palpatine did. Frank was itching for an excuse to kill his father and indulge in his murderous nature, Vader was wrecked by guilt.
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No.28224
>>28223
That makes sense. Anakin should still be more powerful than ever with the Force, but conflicted emotions combined with guilt and regret make for rather conflicting emotions, and that kinda mental stress would only put mental limits on him. I guess the only thing holding him back was himself, which was for the best in the end if the heroes were to prevail against him.
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No.28728
Aww, you guys still believe in the midichlorian bullshit?
The Force is like Dao, it just is and because of it things just are. But if you ask "what is it?", it will no longer be there.
Vader could become more powerful than Sheev and ultimately he did (even had to!), by overcoming Sheev and returning to his place in the Universe, or in more Confucianist terms, he regained his virtue, his "de". Sheev was not able to do that, because regardless of how much power he wielded, his empire was without balance and missing its light counterpart, it was build on nothing. He was on top of everything, so the only change for him was to be brought down. In Chinese philosophy a "full" entity is composed of two opposites bound together and becoming each other. Isn't that familiar? Vader was too bright and powerful in the Lught Side, so much that he became dark. Sheev was the incarnation of Darkness, so Luke arose and Vader changed again, back to the Light and overcame him to restore the natural balance.
Power in the Force is not a quantitative measure like power levels in Dragon Ball, but rather a certain universal factor, ability of things which causes things to happen and find their own place of balance and through that keep the balance of all things. That's why neither Sith nor Jedi are ever victorious, because they represent the nature of things, which in itself is represented by the dual nature of the Force.
Really, the original trilogy was greatly inspired by Chinese thought, namely philosophical daoism and confucianism. It was diluted later on, but the concepts of the Force, Light and Dark sides, Light changing into Darkness and the other way around hail from there.
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No.28731
>>28728
The PT is still canon to everything, but some of the early EU, so yes I "believe" in midichlorians. What kind of question is that?
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No.28732
>>28728
You know the whole shit about midis and Whills (as much as I don't like them) have been around as far back as 1977 according to George himself. The only difference between now and then is that during ROTJ, George implied that anyone could train to be a jedi.
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No.28733
>>28728
>Here's MY headcannon
Didn't read.
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No.28735
>>28728
Gray Jedi? More like GAY Jedi.
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No.28736
>>28728
>you guys still believe in the midichlorian bullshit?
It's canon both old and new, so yeah
>Aww, you still believe in micro organisms? Check this Chinese mysticism out dude. Things just "are" dude.
What? I get that you are personally trying to apply certain aspects of Eastern philosophy to the Star Wars universe, but to act like you've come across the only interpretation that counts is absurd - not to mention condescending.
It doesn't even make sense in the context of the story itself. George out and out said that the dark side is an inherent corruption and abuse of the force and that "bringing balance" to the force meant ridding the galaxy of the dark side and its proponents.
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No.28740
>>28224
Yes, Lucas came with the math "Vader = 80% of Palpatine due his injuries" and "Vader without injures = 2x Palpatine". That is the guy, wrecked as he was, was 80% of something compared to an event horizon, a black hole in the Force, a guy who developed the ability of farting force storms. but even so when one watches RoTJ it's clear that Vader basically threw the fight, he was fighting without any gas. Seriously… Luke just started to swing wildly. He wasn't keen into hurting Luke.
When a person overcomes his mental limitations, his power with the Force can reach it's potential. Jacen became a glowing avatar for a couple of minutes, Bane managed to overcome the guilty of killing his father and unblocked his potential with the darkside. After all, as Yoda said " No! No different! Only different in your mind."
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No.28743
>>28740
This. Vader was capable of easily overwhelming someone as powerful as Palpatine in the end thanks to finally letting go of his own mental restraints for the sake of Luke. With Sith (and jedi), the only limits are those you put on yourself.
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No.30116
Vader couldn't call lightning and all but what they could had explored is the "Sith Sorcery" aspect of it. Vader demonstrated that he was capable of telepathy. He could perfectly gone into Darth Zannah mode and attacked people with illusions and mindfucking. He could drove people mad. Yes, it wasn't in his character (which was basically choke anything that he couldn't cut cut with his lightsaber) but by the EU rules there's nothing indicating that he couldn't.
Also Sith Alchemy. The guy was basically a starfighter/droid engineer. He could perfectly create dark side infused gizmos.
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No.30121
>>28732
>George implied that anyone could train to be a jedi
that never stopped being a thing. the force is in all living creatures, technically even my dog could become a jedi. it's just a fact that unless you learn to wield it, you can't do shit with it and it will only work on its own in random ways (dreams, visions, reflexes).
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