/sw/ - Star Wars

The Empire should be the bad guys, but they should have an appealing mightiness about them and have some admirable qualities. Stories where the officers are all sniveling bitches and the stormtroopers are retards are the worst star wars stories.

>>17389

>the Crystal Star

I picked a hardback of that up from a Goodwill without the dust cover. Is it really as bad as people say? Somehow, I doubt it's anywhere as bad as the current crock of shit.

>>17401

Its not that bad. The problem is you can tell it was written with young readers in mind.

>>17394

This essentially

>>17389

Palpatine wanted to unify the Galaxy because he knew the Vong were coming. Perhaps him and his men went to far in a few places but had the jedi not screwed it all up for their stupid notions of government then a lot less people including aliens wouldn't have died.

>>17409

Sheev wanted absolute never ending power to become an immortal ruler and become the ultimate Sith, establishing the logical endpoint for the Rule of Two, the Rule of One. He may have wanted to defeat the Vong, but it was because they would have knocked him off of being king shit of the galaxy. If he truly cared about the Vong invading, he wouldn't have used the Death Star to blow up Aldeeraan and basically legitimize the Rebel Alliance when they were about to be destroyed.

The Empire did do alot of good stuff though, they murdered a bunch of criminals that the Republic let run rampant, and established human dominance over the galaxy. If it wasn't run by a power hungry tyrannical evil sorcerer, it would have proved to be a stable government, see Imperial Remnant under Pellaeon

Sheev was a bad guy, but most people working for the Empire seemed to be perfectly normal, reasonable men.

It might have been interesting to explore how the remnants of the Empire might have changed for the better without an evil religious order at the helm, but we'll never get that out of Disney.

>>17418

>>17414

Palpatine (remember that "Sheev" is a product of the Mouse) had some good goals too though, not just absolute power, though it was his biggest goal. He was really sold on the idea of bringing order to the galaxy at large.

>>17409

>>17414

Personally, my view on "Palpatine wanted to prepare for the Vong" was that Palpatine only used it as an excuse but several higher ranking Imperials he gave that information to, most prominently Thrawn, were true believers in that cause.

>>17418

>It might have been interesting to explore how the remnants of the Empire might have changed for the better without an evil religious order at the helm, but we'll never get that out of Disney.

Didn't the actual expanded universe do that, though? I haven't actually gotten into any of it myself.

>>17422

Yeah, by the early Legacy they were pretty much good guys implying they weren't already.

>>17420

>Sheev

Sauce?

>>17476

"Sheev" first came from the Tarkin novel, which, although it fits into the EU just fine, was published after the buyout and is considered part of nu-canon. However, I believe Georgie boy confirmed that Sheev was Palpatine's name at one point, which retroactively makes it G-canon as well.

>>17421

>>17414

>>17409

sheev doing it to protect the galaxy from the vong completely undermines him being a sith and achieving their goal of destroying the jedi and ruling the galaxy. i could see him using it as propaganda, but then people would question why the jedi were wiped out (many saw them as the galaxy's protectors, not just jurors and advocates of peace) and a planet killer built in their place when conventional warfare is always guaranteed to happen. but all in all it just does too much eyebrow raising and leaves a lot of holes that need filling. we can all agree that the empire was arguably a much needed change of scenery in the political realm as the republic did fuck all, but sheev also let it get that way in order to secure his power trip.

>>17499

Of course he wants to protect it, just like a landlord who wants to protect his property from a bunch of unwanted pests who want to come in and encroach on his turf.

>there are some E.U. stories that make them bad. But in a dumb way. Crystal Star anyone?

>Is it safe to ignore shitty E.U. stories like that one that make the Empire a joke?

Just read the nu-vader comics today; slightly unrelated but holy crap did they ruin Vader.

Imo it is possible to ignore the old shitty EU with the good.

>>17499

>defending the galaxy completely undermines him being a sith

>sith want to bring about a biological ascendancy by ruling the galaxy

>defending the galaxy undermines wanting to control the galaxy

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……….

>>17420

>He was really sold on the idea of bringing order to the galaxy at large.

No, no he wasn't…

Case in point, he purposely fostered discourse between the Core Worlds and the Outer Rim so that tensions would flare into a galactic-scale war to seize power, then just murdered and shut off one side as soon as that was done.

This created a HUGE damn power vacuum AND left a bunch of military grade weapon surplus just lying around for anyone to just switch back on.

He didn't want ORDER for the Galaxy, he just wanted to be the biggest player in it.

>>17509

I'll never understand why people like the nu-Vader comic so much. Sure it finally covers a point in his life that was barely touched upon but it feels like it tries too hard. And the whole red lightsaber lore for sith seems to be inconsistent since Anakin's lightsaber didn't even turn red when he killed jedis at the temple.

>>17521

it's like how the marvel movies get close to having substance and then throw in a gag line or action scene, whereas vader just throws in action or some reference to a movie. and yeah, the lightsaber thing is stupid. ironically enough there were fan edits that gave anakin a red saber on mustafar, but they aren't canon so it doesn't matter.

>>17500

>>17511

you dingleberries, it undermines because it implies that he had those superweapons created to defend the galaxy, for which they weren't created. the death star was made to ensure his dominance since he dissolved the senate. tarkin literally fucking says this.

"fear will keep the local systems in line"

any faraway worlds like the outer rim had soldiers garrisoned on them to remind the locals that their presence was felt.

>>17534

didn't he only make those because the outer rim started acting like the outer rim and trying to rebel?

like anything more coreward was totally fine with the empire aside from the twat senators who formed the twat rebellion

>>17534

>"fear will keep the local systems in line"

Wasn't that line in reference to the Moffs and governors being given direct power? You're not wrong about Sheev's motivation for building the Death Star, but, in keeping with what the other guy said, why not kill three birds with one stone? I'd say the primary reasons for the Death Star are three:

>fear factor to keep uppity Outer Rim worlds in line

>contingency for the Vong or other extragalactic invaders showing up

>High investment in the Dark Side, and its pesudo-addictive tendencies, gave Sheev a compulsion to end life on a massive scale

>>17547

Keep in mind that last part is dumb memeshit made up by Disney, the whole 'suffering' angle. It was never a thing in the old (good) canon. The Dark Side isn't about mass-ending life, nor is the Sith. The stuff Palpatine espoused was social Darwinism. In the EU, it actually took a ton of convincing from Tarkin and Vader both to decide to give Alderaan's destruction the go-ahead. A galactic ruler can't rule nothing.

>>17560

>In the EU, it actually took a ton of convincing from Tarkin and Vader both to decide to give Alderaan's destruction the go-ahead.

where was this? they seemed pretty trigger happy in episode 4 when finally getting to test the laser's full power.

>>17547

>Wasn't that line in reference to the Moffs and governors being given direct power?

do you remember the follow-up to it?

"fear of this battle station"

moffs and governors were given direct control over their respective territories, but the most they could do is send garrisons of troops to combat any uprisings or such, hence the empire having the death star to remind the entire galaxy that at the drop of a needle, their planet could be destroyed.

>>17587

>they seemed pretty trigger happy in episode 4 when finally getting to test the laser's full power.

I believe Imperial-anon was saying that you were the one that needed convincing, and not Tarkin or Vader, young Sheevposter.

>>17483

It was a proposed first name for the Emperor in a draft of one of the movie scripts. James Luceno had wanted to use it in novels before, but Lucas decided it was better for Palpatine's first name to be an eternal question mark just like the name of Yoda's race and what Jawas look like under their hoods. When Lucas sold SW, Luceno asked the new bosses if he could make Sheev the canon first name for Palpatine as a bit of a geek giggle. I personally don't have such an issue with it; there are much stupider names in Star Wars.

>>17499

Sheev was really trying to save us from the Vong was an unnecessary potential injected into a character that was already pretty incoherent in the EU thanks to the pre and post-prequel EU having to account for shit that couldn't have before been assumed or was assumed wrongly. I'm personally sentimental for that kind of villain but I just justify it with respect to Lucas' notes on the character, what we see in the films, and what he's like in the EU before the Vong.

Pardon my g/a/yness, but it's kind of like when Araki decided for part 6 of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure that DIO wanted to create Heaven all along.

>>17513

As cancerous a nameniggers are, cumeagle is correct. Sheev wasn't interested in making the Empire a well-oiled and self-sustaining machine of meritocratic military efficiency. He deliberately set it up so that it would fail without him. He tried to protect himself from betrayal and usurpation at all costs and the externalities paid by the Galaxy were just tough titties.

>>17623

Giving a villain depth is not a bad thing.

>>17623

>I personally don't have such an issue with it; there are much stupider names in Star Wars.

Plus it kinda fits, who wouldn't want to be a living middle finger to a Galaxy that allowed his parents to name him "Sheev."

>>17623

>Sheev wanted it all to fail

Yes, that is the shitty Disney canon, but it sucks and makes both Palpatine and the Sith less interesting. Throughout ROTS Palpatine has a hard-on for the Sith winning. If he’s just a selfish prick that makes no sense. Anakin is unlikely to care if the Sith rule the galaxy, yet Palpatine tells him that.

The idea that the Dark Side is so dysfunctional that it falls apart on its own is less interesting than the idea that the Dark Side is effective but nightmarishly unpleasant.

>>17635

Sheev's reasoning in EA's Battlefront was just so obnoxious and poorly written. Hell it would've even made sense for him to have some clones lying around since siths thrive on achieving immortality. Instead his whole portrayal in EA reeks of "one dimensional Saturday morning cartoon villain" mentality.

>>17623

>Sheev wasn't interested in making the Empire a well-oiled and self-sustaining machine of meritocratic military efficiency. He deliberately set it up so that it would fail without him. He tried to protect himself from betrayal and usurpation at all costs and the externalities paid by the Galaxy were just tough titties.

I disagree. Palpatine regarded himself as a saviour, remember? He considered non-force sensitives like dumb children, aimless retards who needed a strong guiding hand.

Also that doesn't necessarily goes against his patronage system. He was ridden by fear and was paranoid. The Empire was an efficient regime in the bigger picture, for good and bad.

>Through fraud, clever promises, and astute political maneuvering, he’d managed to get himself elected head of the Council. And then through subterfuge, bribery and terror, he’d named himself Emperor.

>Emperor. It had a certain ring to it. The Republic had crumbled, the Empire was resplendent with its own fires, and would always be so—for the Emperor knew what others refused to believe: the dark forces were the strongest.

>He’d known this all along, in his heart of hearts—but relearned it every day: from traitorous lieutenants who betrayed their superiors for favors; from weak-principled functionaries who gave him the secrets of local star systems’ governments; from greedy landlords, and sadistic gangsters, and power-hungry politicians. No one was immune, they all craved the dark energy at their core. The Emperor had simply recognized this truth, and utilized it—for his own aggrandizement, of course.

>For his soul was the black center of the Empire. He contemplated the dense impenetrability of the deep space beyond the window. Densely black as his soul—as if he were, in some real way, this blackness; as if his inner spirit was itself this void over which he reigned. He smiled at the thought: he was the Empire; he was the Universe.

Palpatine used those negative things, greed, betrayal, vices to increase his own power, keep the Empire in place, and through that, order and prosperity. But he wouldn't considered the Empire a regime "resplendent with its own fires", which "always be so" if he wasn't interested in it.

>>17667

>I disagree. Palpatine regarded himself as a saviour, remember?

Where did you get that? I haven't seen anything that would suggest Sheev was anything more than a power-hungry Sith lord. He stylized himself as the savior of the galaxy to the people of the Empire, but that's about it.

>>17635

It was the canon before Disney as well. Check out the Legends tab for Palpatine on wookiepedia. He didn't care if the Empire survived without him because as far as he was concerned it didn't have much of a point if he wasn't going to be around to call the shots. He protected himself by making his imperium indispensable to running the Empire. That's one reason why the Remnant got its ass kicked so hard until Thrawn showed up. If anything, Disney softened that up a little bit (and went too far in the opposite direction) with the whole First Order gambit.

>If he's just a selfish prick that makes no sense

It is entirely consistent with how much Sith have always acted in Star Wars outside of the wishful headcanon of some fanboys who keep trying to make everything shades of grey in an overwhelmingly black and white moral system. Just because Palpatine brags to Anakin about the Sith ruling the Galaxy or taunts and banters with Yoda about Vader exceeding them both shouldn't be taken as Gospel truth for the canon that he believed they were bigger than himself and he didn't have a greater ambition centered on his own designs. Dude was a master manipulator and liar.

>The idea that the Dark Side is so dysfunctional that it falls apart on its own is less interesting than the idea that the Dark Side is effective but nightmarishly unpleasant

Then it'll have to be less interesting, but that's the way it's always been. Disney isn't at fault on that one. Your opinion is not new, and it's been argued by lots of fans who want it to be true, but its just plain hasn't been. In either sets of canon, the Sith would have easily conquered the Galaxy and reigned indefinitely in the time before the movies except that they cannot help but stab each other in the back whenever there isn't a common enemy to keep their egotistical ambitions in check.

>>17670

It's wishful headcanon. A lot of fans, and I don't disagree with them in principle, prefer a Star Wars with more complexity, nuance, and onion layers like they were given in the Deconstruction lore bomb that was KotOR II. The problem is Star Wars has for most of its existence and in keeping with Lucas' vision has never been that thematically deep. It's a morality play that distills the legendary and eternal struggle of good against evil which Lucas believed you could find with different characters and settings in all human cultures at all different times in history. That's what gives it such cultural staying power: It's THE myth.

Your quote gives insight into Palpatines confidence and belief in how he'd figured everything out through studying the Dark Side but doesn't point out thinking he'd built something that would be there long after he'd gone. As well, "he was the Empire; he was the Universe."

And again I personally love things that challenge the rigid motifs in Star Wars the most too. Things like the Light Sith in TOR, the antique Jed'aii era, and the other stuff. I just don't pretend that's the way Star Wars is "supposed to" be the other 90% of the time. It comes across like frustrated religious types trying to reinterpret and get all creative with their ancient dogma to make it jive with modern day values.

>>17670

I quote from the wiki, in the Palpatine "Legends" tab.

>Although possessed of an insatiable hunger for power, he honestly believed a Sith government would be best for the galaxy, and in time came to regard himself as something of a savior.[173] He viewed all sentient beings bereft of the Force as inferiors, likening them to children floundering about aimlessly, ignorant of their own shortcomings and incapable of fulfilling their aspirations. As articulated in The Weakness of Inferiors, Sidious considered the wise and powerful—specifically Force-sensitives—as responsible for providing guidance for such lesser entities in order to allow for a thriving civilization. Seeing no one wiser nor more powerful than himself save for possibly Vader, he deemed only himself as worthy of realizing this philosophy, and thus endeavored to control the galaxy forever.[22]

>Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith The Visual Dictionary

>Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

It was backed by EU sources.

>>17725

Huh, interesting. I don't know if I like the idea of him being a bit delusional, though.

>>17725

sounds like a forced hitler allegory, i don't buy it.

>>17735

What's Hitler about it?

>>17736

Hitler was convinced that what he did the right thing and nazi rule would be beneficial to Germany I guess.

>>17737

That's not a distinctly Hitler thing though, that describes any head of state who genuinely believes in the cause/movement he advocates for, rather than merely pretending to cash in on the votes. Admittedly, for better or for worse we haven't had many of those since Adolf, perhaps that's why the two are associated.

>>17738

I don't know, man. I was just giving you my best guess as to what >>17735 meant.

>>17737

Hitler only wanted to save his people from the brink of destruction caused by the versaille-treaty and the subsequent violence against exiled german-provinces that now belonged to other countries because of World War 1.

Hitler never started the world war, the allies did even though Hitler was vying for peace.

I've noticed an easily spotted trend when talking about Palpatine.

If the poster calls him "Palpatine" they're more likely to bring up EU sources and talk about how, despite being power hungry, he had some good motives and ideas.

If the poster calls him "Sheev" they're more likely to bring up NU sources and talk about how he was just totally and wholly evil.

Personally I'm gonna side with the former, because a character being solidly one dimensional is fucking boring.

>>17753

>>17751

I just call him Sheev because everyone else does, and because the memes do. It has nothing to do with EU vs post-disney buyout.

>>17767

This. Also its fun to say Sheev. Sounds like Steve. Its kind of like a joke name.

>>17778

Denovus?

>>17778

Adolfus? Obsidium?

>>17778

George

>>17778

I've used Palpie sometimes.

>>17778

I thought Palpatine was his first name as a kid.

>>17780

Perhaps Contispex, or Grizmallt? I guess nobility would like naming their children after historical figures or places?

>In 82 BBY, Cosinga Palpatine's wife gave birth to their eldest son, Palpatine, who later insisted on being known only by the cognomen in order to spite his father and the rest of the family.

He was probably named Cosinga Palpatine III. Considering how much he hated his father, he probably shared his name and preferred to keep it hidden out of spite.

>>17789

Wasn't Palpo's dad an abusive prick? Like, Palps losing his shit and killing the others in his family (albeit inadvertantly) wasn't cool, but him killing Costanza always seemed like a 'had it coming' deal. I recall before it Cosinga even said he'd wanted to kill Palpatine at birth and hated him ever since, because he had a gut feeling his son would be more successful than him.

I can see why he'd drop the name. Though if Sheev was his actual name (it isn't) I could also understand him getting so bitter over being named something so stupid.

>>17778

Krovastis

>>17792

>Wasn't Palpo's dad an abusive prick?

He was. Hence the whole reason as to why he wanted his old man dead and why he wanted to distance himself from his birth name as much as possible. The only reason he probably kept his family name was for the Naboo noble benefits that came with being a member of House Palpatine.

>>17784

I read that as Contisperg at first…

>>17778

Dantius Cosinga Augustus Frank Cos Dashit Palpatine. Or just Frank for his friends.

>>17792

Cosinga wasn't that bad. The fact is that everything he did to bond with Palpatine, besides racing, was doomed to fail. Palpatine despised his own father as an inept politician as soon he came to age to understand what politics were. And that was the father who covered his misdeeds and unruly behavior. Palpatine was a psychopath from day one.

>>17799

That's not how it went though. Palpatine was a fairly regular guy, albeit reckless and who liked the thrill of chaos, but his only misdeed to his dad was that he didn't kowtow and fear him. It was said that his siblings and mother had virtually no opinions of their own and feared Cosinga greatly, and learned to respect him subserviently to avoid his wrath. Palpatine was the exception, and even his siblings hated him for it. His mother's opinion isn't mentioned much. Aboard their yacht after Cosinga's forbidden Palpatine to see Plagueis anymore, thinking he's a political rival, it reached a breaking point where Palpatine lets out a "you fucking suck" speech, and Cosinga likewise admits he'd hated Palpatine all his life and that he'd had a mind to kill him from the very start, as he felt one day Palpatine would be better than him and therefore not easily-controlled. At that, Palpatine went into a berserk rage and ended up unleashing his Dark side prowess, killing his father and likely unintentionally his two siblings and mother.

Palpatine was funnily enough the only normal person from a very beyond-dysfunctional family, and only when his rage reached a breaking point did he go psycho, and it wasn't unjustified, not against his dad at least.

Everything Bazinga did to "bond" with him was stuff trying to cover up Palpatine's mischief

>>17824

And yet through all this covering, Consinga reinforced the notion also that Palpatine could do no wrong, and indeed was invincible. That's bad parenting no matter how you slice it.

>fairly regular guy

A bit of a sociopath too, seeing how he had no guilt about running down that pedestrian with his car.

>>17863

By accident.

Then again yeah he wasn't terribly upset over it, but it was a "woops anyway let's go racing" reaction rather than a "HAHAHAHAHHA LET'S DO THAT AGAIN" reaction. Though I think that's what sociopathy is.

>>18100

Sociopathy is usually used as a synonym to psycopathy. In any case that was the case with Palpatine, he didn't gave a fuck about others, even before being recruited by the Sith he exhibited the symptoms of it. His lack of empathy and guilty was only exacerbated by his father covering to avoid scandals.

>>18310

He went into a blind rage when his father told him he wanted/always had wanted to kill him. I don't remember if Palpatine is said to feel guilty about his mother and the others though, but it's implied to have just been part of his berserking. Then again he was always detached from them since they had basically become pawns of Costanza.

>>18370

Given how shaky he was when Hego found him later, the berserk explanation sounds likely.

>>18316

Keksome

>>18316

The anon who made the Dash Rendar video should consider adapting this.