89c383 No.29290[Last 50 Posts]
This is something I've wondered about a lot before, and I was wondering if there were any good resources for this. Certain attributes of Allah, such as merciful, loving, forgiving, etc. are active attributes that can't exist alone. Meaning that you can't be loving with nobody to love, you have to love someone else. So I'm wondering this: Allah existed alone for eternity before creating anything, so how can he be loving if he had nobody to love? Some people might say that he had foreknowledge of us or of the angels, and loved us based on that, but if he was only creating out of foreknowledge then where did that foreknowledge come from?
Basically, I don't understand how a single being alone in the universe can become loving with no other being to love, have any Islamic scholars or philosophers looked into this? Are there any resources you could give me on the nature of Allah?
____________________________
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491c56 No.29295
God is as he wills himself to be, he may not always have had all the attributes we know of him because they weren't necessary.
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a6c001 No.29296
>>29295
God does not change or acquire new attributes. According to mainstream Sunni aqidah (see: Creed of Imam Tahawi for example) God was the creator before he ever created.
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73ae1d No.29297
>>29290
We don't know. We can only speculate.
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. Qur'an 112
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491c56 No.29298
>>29296
I feel like thinking in terms of time is what is limiting this discussion, and what limits most discussions about Allah since time is a creation of Allah so Allah must be able to operate without time.
So, the greater question is how do actions occur beyond time?
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a6c001 No.29299
>>29298
There's only two things I can think of to comment on this (keeping in mind that I'm obviously fallible and could be wrong, Allahu alam):
1. The only kinds of actions we know are actions in time, and it should be clear that Allah's (swt) actions are not like our actions though we refer to them as "actions" by a sort of analogy.
2. Allah (swt) also creates actions in time, e.g. the splitting of the red sea (he created the event and the timeframe in which it occured).
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caaa12 No.29301
>>29290
all moments, all people and all possibilities exist to God in an eternal present.
God loves himself and loves the world and we are his humble children. Read your holy scripture
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fe9113 No.29309
You can't apply "before" creation, since time is created.
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fe9113 No.29310
>>29301
>we are his humble children
Not in islam.
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73ae1d No.29318
>>29310
The servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say words of peace. [25:36]
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2ffc4e No.29323
>>29318
He's not rejecting the humble part he's rejecting the children part
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73ae1d No.29324
>>29323
Oh! Well, that's different. Yeah, we're not Allah's children, rather just humans he created.
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dc721b No.32362
>>29310
God has no children,read chapter ikhlas
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c09cdf No.32363
Allah can't "have" things because he isn't like anything. People have attributes, trees have attributes, ideas have attributes, but Allah is not something that "has" things. So already your question is broken from the start.
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c09cdf No.32364
>>32362
The hadeeth mentioned was narrated by al-Bazzaar and Abu Ya’la from Anas, and says, “All of mankind are the dependents of Allaah, and the most beloved of them to Allaah are those who are most helpful to their dependents.”
We are his creations, he sustains us, he loves us. So metaphorically he is more of a Father to us than our actual fathers.
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2416e0 No.32375
>>32364
But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. (5:18)
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b1fae7 No.32404
>>32375
> Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?"
What father doesn't punish his children?
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2416e0 No.32405
>>32404
A father would never eternally torture his children.
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b1fae7 No.32409
>>32405
>A father would never eternally torture his children.
Neither does God.
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eb4786 No.32412
>>32409
Yes because God doesn't beget children.
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2416e0 No.32413
>>32409
Yes, according to the bible most so called children of god (humans) will go to hell. The reality is we are His property.
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94e571 No.32439
>>32413
>go to hell
>God tortures you
pick one
>>32412
No, torture is mutually exclusive from the good.
But torture is not mutually exclusive from fatherhood, plenty of fathers actively torture their children and are sadistic.
But if they were good fathers, they would not.
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2416e0 No.32479
>>32439
God is in charge of everything, in hell he tells the angels how to torture you forever in the worst way possible. Because you are a slave, nothing more.
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74c644 No.32492
>>32479
Torture is evil and petty. You are confused. Are you sure you worship God and not something else?
Going to hell doesn't mean God is torturing you, or his mafia is torturing you on his request.
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2416e0 No.32496
>>32492
What religion are you then?
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ea8ef9 No.32513
>>32496
This. It even says in the Quran how some of the torture are carried out.
https://quran.com/4/56
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4966d9 No.32542
>>32513
>Torture is actually good
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2416e0 No.32543
>>32542
Anything God orders is by definition good. That's the only absolute metric. It's also just, the people of hell (may Allah protect us) are disobedient. You pick a battle with the most powerful being, what do you expect in return? You still haven't told me your religion, maybe you are a universalist who believes everyone will be saved, that is naive.
Allah swt does not want you to be a disbeliever but you have free will.
If you disbelieve - indeed, Allah is Free from need of you. And He does not approve for His servants disbelief. And if you are grateful, He approves it for you; and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you about what you used to do. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts. 39:7
Allah swt wants to forgive you.
And Allah would turn to you in mercy; but those who follow vain desires would have you go tremendously astray. 4:27
Allah's swt mercy overcomes his wrath.
…Your Lord has decreed upon Himself mercy: that any of you who does wrong out of ignorance and then repents after that and corrects himself - indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful." 6:54
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4966d9 No.32551
>>32543
I believe in hell and punishment. I don't believe God is doing any torturing or ordering his servants to torture anyone. He doesn't need to stoop so low.
The suffering in hell is self-generated by the sinner, after their eyes are opened, after their conscience is healed they become aware of the weight of their bad actions. When you know you caused others harm and sinned against God your conscience will hold you accountable and grief and despair will follow, and that could last forever and that is sufficient "punishment".
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73ae1d No.32554
>>32551
Well, Qur'an disagrees with you and you have no authority over Qur'an. Your fee-fees don't matter.
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2416e0 No.32555
>>32551
Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together, 2:161
All who buy the life of this world at the price of the life to come - their suffering shall not be lightened, nor shall they be succoured! 2:86
And if you could but see when the angels take the souls of those who disbelieved… They are striking their faces and their backs and [saying], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire. 8:50
Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise. 4:56
Indeed, the tree of zaqqum
Is food for the sinful.
Like murky oil, it boils within bellies
Like the boiling of scalding water.
[It will be commanded], "Seize him and drag him into the midst of the Hellfire,
Then pour over his head from the torment of scalding water."
[It will be said], "Taste! Indeed, you are (so called) the honored, the noble!
(44:43-49)
These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water
By which is melted that within their bellies and [their] skins.
And for [striking] them are maces of iron.
Every time they want to get out of Hellfire from anguish, they will be returned to it, and [it will be said], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!"
(22:19-22)
So how do you explain that from the moment of a kaffirs death he is cursed, beaten in his grave until judgement day and then thrown into hell? You don't sound like a muslim, but rejecting those verses and claiming it's "stooping too low" is kufr.
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eb4786 No.32577
>>32555
>>32554
He's probably another mushrik troll, ignoring of course that his own bible describes a hellfire.
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2416e0 No.32583
>>32577
I think he's a self proclaimed muslim, the mushrik is another ID.
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73ae1d No.32584
>>32577
Perhaps, but we can't be afraid of mushrik. We have all the ammunition we need to dismiss them.
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ac66b5 No.32597
>>32554
>>32555
mere metaphors, like the "hand" or "face" of Allah. If you take them literally you will be misguided.
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2416e0 No.32601
>>32597
What sect/religion are you? And stop changing IDs. There is consequences in trying to mislead muslims by pretending to be different people in a debate.
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2416e0 No.32611
>>32597
I've only heard christians and jews say that hell is a metaphor for being isolated from God, this is heresy in most christian sects and kufr and exit from the fold of Islam.
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ea8ef9 No.32612
>>32597
>mere metaphors
>detailed descriptions of how you're going to get punished
The "hand" or "face" is not described in detailed. Friend, please.
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ac66b5 No.32613
>>32611
Who said hell is the metaphor?
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ac66b5 No.32614
>>32612
> Friend, please.
Not an argument. Metaphors can be very detailed.
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ea8ef9 No.32618
>>32613
Then, what is the metaphor and explain how are those are metaphors? As far as I've learned, no scholars ever said that the verses are metaphors but literal punishment.
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2416e0 No.32632
>>32613
I mean your claim that the punishments in hell are a metaphor, also I see your thread on /christian/, nice try.
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a73cf8 No.32699
>>32632
punishment in hell =/= God torturing you.
Get it straight. My sentences aren't complicated.
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ea8ef9 No.32701
>>32699
Now, I'm getting more confused. You said here >>32551 that the punishment in hell are self-generated rather than what's written in the Qur'an here >>32555
Yet your current post implies that all of this misunderstanding is because of semantics like "God doesn't torture but only delivers punishment" or something like that.
So which is it?
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eb4786 No.32702
>>32701
trinis are qadariyya mujassimah, hence their dualist nonsense. They don't believe God is the creator of everything.
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2416e0 No.32716
>>32702
he might be that bahai kaffir that posted some months ago
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5cafa2 No.32725
>>32702
You're confusing trinis with gnostics.
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5cafa2 No.32726
>>32701
Where does it say Allah is doing the torturing? Heaven and hell are created realms, like earth (except unending) do you suppose Allah enters into creation and personally tortures you?
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ea8ef9 No.32727
>>32726
Just stop. You're acting like a literal Bani Israel right now. Moving the goalpost and asking retarded questions. Have a pony and a nice day.
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5cafa2 No.32728
>>32727
>specifically back up your claim that Allah does the torturing
>Just stop. Moving the goalpost and asking retarded questions.
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eb4786 No.32731
>>32728
Allah is Just and therefore rewards the good and punishes the wicked, as He has promised. You should self-generate a functioning brain and stop being a retarded kafir.
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2416e0 No.32740
>>32728
>>32726
>Where does it say Allah is doing the torturing
>[It will be commanded], "Seize him and drag him into the midst of the Hellfire,
>Then pour over his head from the torment of scalding water."
(44:43-49)
angels dont do anything of their own, they only obey Allah swt
O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your own families from a Fire whose fuel is mankind and stones, (and) over which are harsh, severe Angels, who do not disobey Allah in whatever He commands them and who perform whatever they are commanded to. (66:6)
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eed997 No.32741
>>32740
This means a just system is in place. Where good deeds bring about good consequences and bad deeds bring unfavorable consequences. It doesn't mean Allah will be fanning you in heaven nor will he send a hit squad to violate you. Everything is automatic and you're taking this way too literally. Do you think there will be sex and ambrosia in heaven?
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2416e0 No.32745
>>32741
Most of the quran is literal, those verses are muhkamat, you deviant.
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2a02e7 No.32746
>>32741
>not taking Qur'an literally
What are you, a Twelver?
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ea2dff No.32784
>>29290
> I don't understand how a single being alone in the universe can become loving with no other being to love,
You're thinking of God as a being among many, when in fact he transcends all beings and "being" itself, and is the unfathomable ground of reality.
>how can he be loving/merciful/etc
Our words are just pointers, he is the ultimate good, the good beyond good and evil. Don't take these words too literally.
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2416e0 No.32828
>>32746
I checked the logs, he is a christian lol.
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18f02d No.32829
>>32828
Better Christian than a Shi'a.
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eb4786 No.32830
Physical najaasa needs a physical naar.
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2416e0 No.32867
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cf7449 No.32876
>>32829
oh so this board is anti-shia? What if someone said better Christian than Wahhabi
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73ae1d No.32881
>>32876
>so this board is anti-shia?
No. Just some of the people here are anti-Shi'a just as some are anti-Salafi. People are entitled to their opinions.
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2416e0 No.32894
>>32876
There is no such thing as wahabi, brother shiites are non muslim, they are ex muslims, islamically it means they are worst than christian, because christians are kaffir in the first place. pls refer to this post to see the evidence behind why shiites are murtad: >>32382
jazak Allahu khayran
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