Omnipotence and omniscience

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Omnipotence and omniscience † 12/28/20 (Mon) 03:28:20 456f89 No.851529

Hello, christanons.

I've been talking with some atheist friends about the nature of God for a while. Some of their doubts left me very curious, so I decided to bring them here.

1- If God is omniscient and already knows that men will sin, why get angry with them? If he only knows the possibilities but not what actions man will take, doesn't that make him stop being omniscient? And if the predestination is really true, wouldn't that make him have created evil in a direct way? If he only knows what man will do but doesn't decide, why does he need to test the faith of men?

2- God is incapable of going against his nature (for example, he is incapable of lying), nor of doing illogical things (like creating a stone that even he cannot move). Wouldn't that make him stop being omnipotent?

We have had our own conclusions from this discussion and it was very interesting, but I want to see what explanation you can give about it.

____________________________

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 04:40:02 98eb8a No.851531

>>851529

>If God is omniscient and already knows that men will sin, why get angry with them?

His foreknowledge of sin has nothing to with the fact that sin demands judgement to a perfectly holy God

>If he only knows the possibilities but not what actions man will take, doesn't that make him stop being omniscient?

Most people answer yes. Open theists might answer no, because future contingent acts do not yet exist so his not knowing doesn't compromise omniscience. If he did know them it would be knowledge of a false fact (according to the open theist argument.

https://www.theopedia.com/omniscience-of-god

https://www.theopedia.com/open-theism

>If he only knows what man will do but doesn't decide, why does he need to test the faith of men?

"Test of faith" is not a good or accurate way to describe the Christian gospel of salvation by faith in Jesus. It is true that salvation is contingent on individual faith in Jesus, but God's foreknowledge of a person's future faith doesn't change the dynamic.

>Wouldn't that make him stop being omnipotent?

No because omnipotence isn't defined as including ability to accomplish paradoxes or violate nature. It doesn't mean "God can do anything"

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1275.cfm

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 05:41:04 a358b1 No.851532

>>851529

>If God is omniscient and already knows that men will sin, why get angry with them?

Because God does not like to know that men sin.

> If he only knows the possibilities but not what actions man will take, doesn't that make him stop being omniscient?

God knows all things. He exists outside of time and knew the end from the very beginning.

>And if the predestination is really true, wouldn't that make him have created evil in a direct way?

God creates men that are capable of evil. Without God's grace, all men would be damned to Hell from the actions of their own free will. He does not create robots, He creates conscious responsible beings that can choose to do good or evil for themselves, and man will always choose evil without God. God predestines salvation for the few He planned to show mercy to by intervening and giving them the gift of faith.

>If he only knows what man will do but doesn't decide, why does he need to test the faith of men?

God creates the cause of the test for the effect of salvation. Following your line of reasoning, God would just create people in Heaven and Hell because He knows who will find faith. God would rather prefer the story to play out, as that would be most glorifying to His name.

>God is incapable of going against his nature (for example, he is incapable of lying), nor of doing illogical things (like creating a stone that even he cannot move). Wouldn't that make him stop being omnipotent?

God's character is to be logical. Logic does not constrict God, rather God constricts logic. If God wills it, He can be illogical and exist outside of rationality. Of course we would have no idea what that would look like because our brains are created to think in logical categories. God's nature exists in the way it exists because that is how God wills it to exist in His infinite wisdom. So to ask if God is capable of going against His own nature is to ask if God can will to act against His own will. And the answer is no (at least in this case), because that is not what God wills to do. God retains omnipotence because it is His will that is the basis of all things.

>>851531

>Open theists might answer no, because future contingent acts do not yet exist so his not knowing doesn't compromise omniscience

Open theism is heretical and denies God's sovereignty. It places Him within some pre-created system of time and logic. Who created the parameters that bind God? Nobody. All things are created by Him.

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 07:02:39 a78c1a No.851533

File: f3d40a71130384e⋯.png (245.22 KB, 319x368, 319:368, evildef.PNG)

>>851529

>2- God is incapable of going against his nature (for example, he is incapable of lying), nor of doing illogical things (like creating a stone that even he cannot move). Wouldn't that make him stop being omnipotent?

He has the potential for doing anything, but that does not mean God will stop being consistent, or actually do all things that he has the potential to do because not only is God omnipotent but has other attributes of perfection like being all-wise.

>If he only knows what man will do but doesn't decide, why does he need to test the faith of men?

If we are referring to the Creator who Is, who was and who is to come, then He does not have "needs" but the reason why He decides to do something may be beyond our capacity to understand and it is part of our job to accept that at times.

Romans 11:

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

>And if the predestination is really true, wouldn't that make him have created evil in a direct way?

No because evil properly is a violation of God's law. So then the Lord is not capable of violating His own law but rather creates it.

>1- If God is omniscient and already knows that men will sin, why get angry with them?

If you already know someone is going to do something that makes you angry in advance, does witnessing them do it change that or amplify it?

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 07:19:30 823b09 No.851534

>>851529

>why get angry with them?

The purpose of anger is to discourage sin according to St. Thomas.

>And if the predestination is really true, wouldn't that make him have created evil in a direct way?

That's completely irrelevant if God is all good because that would mean this predetermined universe with some evil is actually the most good universe possible because it's chosen by an all good God. It's easy to imagine a world where the grass is greener but it's harder to have the humility to admit your fantasy might not be viable in application unlike God's consistent universe.

>God is incapable of going against his nature (for example, he is incapable of lying), nor of doing illogical things (like creating a stone that even he cannot move). Wouldn't that make him stop being omnipotent?

This is a semantics issue completely dependent on the definition of omnipotent in use and not really useful or important.

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This thread is totally not bait. † 12/28/20 (Mon) 11:50:19 f71d80 No.851542

File: fc3a83c5fae7f21⋯.jpg (15.82 KB, 300x225, 4:3, cast_pearls_before_swine_a….jpg)

Not bait at all.

Oddly, I just read about this in the Doctrina Christiana: The Timeless Catechism of St. Robert Bellarmine.

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OP 12/28/20 (Mon) 16:17:51 057c3d No.851544

>>851542

It is not. I'm sending right now the replies of this thread to my friends. I'll make a update soon.

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 17:48:06 98eb8a No.851547

>>851532

I'm not an open theist myself but that's not a refutation of the position

You wouldn't call someone as a heretic if they viewed God as in time would you?

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 18:07:58 a358b1 No.851548

>>851547

God exists oitside of time but also interacts with us within time. I refuted open theism by demonstrating how it makes God subject to laws of the universe that are above Him. It also means that there was a possibility that some of the prophecies of Christ may have never been fulfilled. For example Judas may have had a change of heart and stuck with Jesus, or the Jews might've killed him by stoning or not even wanted him dead at all. Open theism contradicts the God we find in Scripture who can enact His word with certainty. God is not a liar.

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 18:49:14 98eb8a No.851550

>>851548

We're not really having a conversation are we

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 20:21:48 d627e5 No.851551

Okay, I will compile the new doubts that have emerged.

>If we are referring to the Creator who Is, who was and who is to come, then He does not have "needs" but the reason why He decides to do something may be beyond our capacity to understand and it is part of our job to accept that at times.

So, when a hard question comes the answer is "Dude trust me" and that's all? From a outsider view, it seems much more that the Bible has no answers to these logical contradictions. It's basically saying "don't think about it, the Bible is telling the true, period."

I'm not baiting you guys, I'm really paraphrasing the replies I got when I made this same argument.

>This is a semantics issue completely dependent on the definition of omnipotent in use and not really useful or important.

>No because omnipotence isn't defined as including ability to accomplish paradoxes or violate nature. It doesn't mean "God can do anything"

What "all power" means, then?

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 20:47:12 98eb8a No.851553

>>851551

>1

The answer you gave your friends is bad and their response is reasonable

>What "all power" means, then?

It means what it says, "all powerful". All just doesn't entail things that contradict his nature or paradoxes.

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-omnipotent.html

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† 12/28/20 (Mon) 22:46:35 a78c1a No.851555

File: c66e306a8ae4cac⋯.gif (5.65 MB, 800x600, 4:3, 1606360261568.gif)

>>851551

>So, when a hard question comes the answer is "Dude trust me" and that's all?

Is that the answers I gave though?

>From a outsider view, it seems much more that the Bible has no answers to these logical contradictions.

What contradictions man. God does not have "needs" so the question you asked is moot. If you read the quote I gave of Romans 11 you would see that as you would expect for a transcendent being, there is nothing that we can give that the Lord does not already have, and that we are of a limited capacity compared to Him. Let's be honest, how could you hope to fully understand a transcendent being and be able to explain the reasons why everything He does. The created would not be able to fully grasp the Creator. That is not logically an argument against the Creator. Maybe emotionally it is, because people do not want to deal with that fact. That doesn't mean it's not true.

>It's basically saying "don't think about it, the Bible is telling the true, period."

And it is, so if you have some kind of emotional problem with it that's just too bad because it does nothing to show it false. Jesus said to the scribes and Pharisees, "And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

So, if what Christ said in his Word is true, then the only way to find out is to read the Bible for yourself to find out. Anyone that is of God will "hear" God's words when presented with them. If they are not of God, then they will not hear them. As he also said to the crowd in John 10:

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

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† 12/29/20 (Tue) 00:09:49 df45bf No.851556

>>851555

>And it is, so if you have some kind of emotional problem with it that's just too bad

That's the mere assertion fallacy and possibly appeal to emotion.

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† 12/29/20 (Tue) 00:13:44 df45bf No.851557

>>851551

>It's basically saying "don't think about it, the Bible is telling the true, period."

I mean to be fair someone literally just said that so the atheist makes a valid point.

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† 12/29/20 (Tue) 19:22:05 e17d3c No.851561

>>851556

Try reading the rest of the post next time. We know you can do it, anon.

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† 12/29/20 (Tue) 22:46:28 d90e46 No.851565

>>851561

The rest of your post is literally the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. You're just a false flagging fedora.

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