/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Millions of people who considers themselves Christians and claim to follow the Bible, believe in the doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” or “Once Saved, Always Justified”. This doctrine is also sometimes called “Eternal Security” or “The Perseverance of the Saints”. There are denominations, schools, universities and “churches” throughout the world dedicated to a view of salvation in which “Once Saved, Always Saved” is an essential component. The doctrine is entirely unbiblical and false. To wit, it is one of the greatest frauds that Satan has foisted upon humanity. We shall now prove the emptiness of this position through the words of the Apostle St. Paul.

In his First Epistle to the Corinthians, Saint Paul specifies that he is writing to “that are sanctified in Christ Jesus” [1 Corinthians 1:2]. Paul is therefore addressing his message, as well as his warnings, directly to true believers, and not to false believers. What the Apostle says applies directly to those who have truly been incorporated into Christ and sanctified, and not to those who merely think they are in Christ. And what does he tell the sanctified? “Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God” [1 Corinthians 6:9-10]. Saint Paul addresses the sanctified and he tells them not to be deceived, that grave sins will bar people from the Kingdom of God. Those grave, or mortal, sins put people in a state in which they will be barred from the Kingdom of Heaven if they die without a true conversion of life and obtaining forgiveness in confession (John 20:23; 1 John 1:9). Thus, the Bible teaches that true Christians, those who have been sanctified, can destroy the state of justification by evil deeds and forfeit salvation, putting themselves in a state of damnation, if they commit such sins.

That this warning applies directly to true believes is also clear from the succeeding verse, “And such some of you were; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God” [1 Corinthians 6:11]. Notice here that St. Paul describes his audience as those who have been washed. Thus, once again it is clear that the warning that preceded this verse is given to those called justified. Those who were justified or saved at one point can lose justification, and be barred from the Kingdom, for grave sins. Moreover, the Apostle, when he writes “but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified”, undoubtedly refers to the reception of regeneration or first justification in water baptism – the verse concerns water baptism.

The verb used in 1 Corinthians 6:11 for “you were washed” is ἀπελούσασθε (apelousasthe; to entirely wash away) refers to the complete removal of sin and its debt. The base verb, ἀπολούω (apolouó; to wash off, wash away) occurs only once more in the New Testament where Ananias instructed St. Paul, “Rise up, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name” [Acts 22:16]. St. Paul uses this same verb in his Epistle to the Corinthians because water baptism is the washing of regeneration. Water baptism is the instrument of regeneration, or first justification, established by Jesus Christ for entrance into His body and the forgiveness of sins, as Christians universally believed from the earliest period of the Church. The reception of water baptism is connected with the forgiveness of sins, the rebirth of the Holy Spirit and receiving Salvation itself throughout the New Testament (John 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Matthew 28:19). To wit, in Galatians 3:26-27, “For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ”, and in Colossians 2:12, “Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead”, putting on Christ and becoming a son of God is identified with receiving baptism. In these same verses entering Christ Jesus διὰ τῆς πίστεως (dia tēs pisteōs; by the faith) and being raised διὰ τῆς πίστεως (dia tēs pisteōs; through the faith) refers to water baptism. The Apostle repeat this phrase in Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God”, where he speaks of receiving initial salvation in Christ. For these verses describe how converts receive initial salvation and forgiveness of sins through water baptism, the instrument instituted by Jesus Himself to initially apply the saving blood of His Redemption, the merit He won on the Cross. Accordingly, we read that Jesus came through water and blood (1 John 5:6), and that water and blood came from His side (John 19:34).

>>851246

This grace of regeneration, which God administers through water baptism, is said to be not of yourselves or of works, but the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8-9]. For the grace of the forgiveness of sins is not our work; it is the work of Jesus Christ upon the Cross. God attaches the reception of this grace of forgiveness to following His commands. For that reason, we read, throughout the New Testament, that to be saved one must not only believe what God has revealed but obey Him (Romans 6:16, 1 Corinthians 7:19, Matthew 19:17, Hebrews 5:9). Therefore according to the New Testament one only appropriates, or takes possession of, the gift of God by faith and obedience, by faith in action, by faith in compliance with His commands, and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

In Titus 3:5 we read, “Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost.” The Greek noun λουτρόν (loutron; a washing, a bath, water for washing) that the Apostle uses here to refer to the washing of regeneration occurs only once more in the New Testament in which St. Paul parallels the deliverance of Christ for His Church,“That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life” [Ephesians 5:26], with the washing of water in the word. Once more we see that the Bible connects the washing of regeneration with water. For Jesus Christ established water baptism as the sacrament of regeneration, as all the early fathers of the Church believed.

In his first Epistle to the Corinthians, St. Paul tells the Corinthians that though they were washed, sanctified and justified all at once in water baptism (1 Corinthians 6:11); the instrument which incorporates people into Christ, applies His saving blood, forgives sins and makes them new creations; they can still be barred from the Kingdom of God should they fall into grave sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). The order of the Apostle’s words themselves – washed, sanctified, justified – expresses that when entering the true Christian faith, one is sanctified and justified simultaneously in the washing of water baptism. Sanctification does not come after justification, as many Protestants claim, but with the washing and justification.

Now, in desperation some Protestants adherents of “Once Saved, Always Saved” will respond by focussing on the beginning of the verse, “And such some of you were” [1 Corinthians 6:11]. They claim that the intended meaning of St. Paul is that prior to conversion the justified Christians committed the grave sins mentioned by the Apostle and that posterior to conversion the justified Christians will not or cannot commit such sins and be barred from the Kingdom of God. This claim is absurd for two reasons. First, for St. Paul tells his audience, “those sanctified in Christ Jesus” (1 Corinthians 1:2), “do not be deceived” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). The warning of the Apostle about being damned for grave sins is therefore given directly to those he called sanctified; he is telling the sanctified not to be deceived by a false gospel, according to which one can either do anything one wants and be saved or one becomes incapable of falling into sins that bar one from heaven once one is sanctified. Second, even if one granted, for the sake of argument, the claim that the warning of St. Paul does not apply to the sanctified this would not justify the Protestant position. For the Apostle later warns his audience, “Now these things were done in a figure of us, that we should not covet evil things as they [the Israelites] also coveted. Neither become ye idolaters, as some of them, as it is written: The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed fornication, and there fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ: as some of them tempted, and perished by the serpents” [1 Corinthians 10:6-9]. St. Paul is warning his brethren, the justified, not to become as the sinners barred from the Kingdom of God. His meaning is unmistakable. Therefore, the justified can commit those grave sins, lose justification and be damned.

>>851247

The Protestant position can be still further refuted.

In beginning his Epistle to the Corinthians, St. Paul refers to himself as “called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ” [1 Corinthians 1:1], yet in the same book he teaches that he himself could fall away, “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” [1 Corinthians 9:27]. The Greek word ἀδόκιμος (adokimos; failing to pass the test, rejected, worthless literally or morally), in its various uses in the New Testament always refers to the unjustified and the condemned. The accusative form in Romans 1:28, ἀδόκιμον (adokimon; reprobate) describes a reprobate, or deprived mind; the plural form in 2 Corinthians 13:5, ἀδόκιμοί (adokimoi; reprobates) refers to the unjustified, those without Christ in them; the plural form in 2 Timothy 3:8 refers to the unjustified, those who are corrupt in mind concerning the faith; the plural form in Titus 1:16 refers to those who, being abominable and incredulous, deny God; the adjectival form in Hebrews 6:8, ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) refers to a land that is worthless and fit to be burned. In all its forms ἀδόκιμος always refers to an unjustified or condemned person or thing. St. Paul in clearly teaching that even he, though called to the state of grace and apostleship, could be lost destroys the notion of “Once Saved, Always Saved.”

In response some will make the argument that St. Paul could not know if he were a true believer and so is telling people that he could fall away, and that if he did fall that would prove that St. Paul never truly believed. Such a position is ludicrous. For Jesus calls the Apostle “a vessel of election” in Acts 9:15, St. Paul is forgiven of his sins through water baptism in Acts 22:16, and in Galatians 2:20 St. Paul preaches, “And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.” St. Paul was a true believer as Scripture, the inspired Word of God, identifies him as such. And therefore, the teaching of the inspired Word is that someone who is in Christ can be damned - ἀδόκιμος.

The texts we have considered not only blatantly contradict and refute the heresy of “Once Saved, Always Saved”, which is held by millions of Protestants, but justification by faith alone as well. For they prove that one can lose justification not only for apostasy or renouncing the faith but for grave sins. Man’s actions therefore play a role in determining whether he will attain the Kingdom of God.

There is only one true Christian faith, the traditional Catholic faith, outside of which there is no salvation.

>>851246

>Thus, the Bible teaches that true Christians, those who have been sanctified, can destroy the state of justification by evil deeds and forfeit salvation, putting themselves in a state of damnation, if they commit such sins.

None of the Scripture references quoted thus far teaches that.

>That this warning applies directly to true believes is also clear from the succeeding verse, “And such some of you were; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God” [1 Corinthians 6:11]. Notice here that St. Paul describes his audience as those who have been washed.

He is saying some of them "were" like that. Notice the word "were" is used there. Should I take a pointer to the exact word being used in the quote to the past tense for you? Ok, I think I will do that, in case you try to say it does not say that.

1 Corinthians 6:

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now that you see that it says they "were" like that, it means something different than that they "are" like that. I underlined the word "were" for you in the above quotation. I underlined the word "were," so that you will see that it clearly says that, and that it does not say "are". I underlined the word "were" in the above quotation. Here I will underline it again:

>And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

And in the previous verses the apostle Paul is warning them that other people who commit such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This is similar to Peter's warning that false prophets have a "damnation" that "slumbereth not" in II Peter chapter 2. This is also similar to the ending in the book of Revelation where it says that murderers, sorcerers, whoremongers and the rest shall "have their part in the lake of fire."

>The reception of water baptism is connected with the forgiveness of sins, the rebirth of the Holy Spirit and receiving Salvation itself throughout the New Testament (John 3:5, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Matthew 28:19).

One of these is not about, and does not mention water baptism at all, which is the one about being born again in John iii. 5. This has to do with being born again. The others sure are about baptism and they all help explain it.

>In these same verses entering Christ Jesus διὰ τῆς πίστεως (dia tēs pisteōs; by the faith) and being raised διὰ τῆς πίστεως (dia tēs pisteōs; through the faith) refers to water baptism.

πίστεως refers to faith actually. Are you mistranslating the word for faith as baptism now? If so, then you are creating an inaccurate translation of a word that we know refers to faith. You even agreed that is the case in the initial translation, but then doubled back and said it actually means baptism. Quite strange. I guess you guys would need to do stuff like this to reach such a warped position.

>The Apostle repeat this phrase in Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God”, where he speaks of receiving initial salvation in Christ. For these verses describe how converts receive initial salvation and forgiveness of sins through water baptism

Ephesians 2:8 says "for by grace are you saved through faith." Where is water baptism or anything related to baptism mentioned in that verse. You cannot tell us because whoever wrote this is just making this stuff up as they go. As can be clearly seen, by anyone who reads, Ephesians 2:8 simply never mentions baptism. What you have done then is eisegesis, reading whatever you want into the word when it is not there by itself. This is because: The word for baptism is nowhere to be found in that reference.

>>851247

>First, for St. Paul tells his audience, “those sanctified in Christ Jesus” (1 Corinthians 1:2), “do not be deceived” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

We should be not deceived that people who commit those things are unsaved. Universalism teaches that everyone, no matter even people who commit these things will be saved. Christians are not universalists who should think that everyone will be saved.

>one becomes incapable of falling into sins that bar one from heaven once one is sanctified.

Acts 13:

>48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

So we see whoever was ordained to eternal life are those that believed. Now the only way to know who is a believer in this world is by works, hence, we should be warned that those who commit such things as mentioned by Paul were never saved.

>[1 Corinthians 10:6-9].

Now we are in a passage dealing with people being punished in this life for committing sins.

>“But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” [1 Corinthians 9:27].

In 2 Corinthians 13:6 he writes: "But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates." The same root word is used here. The meaning is clear that some of the Corinthians were wrongly teaching that Paul was reprobate, but that was just their erroneous opinion. Paul did everything possible so that would not happen according to 1 Corinthians 9:27. But of course, some people apparently accused him of being rejected anyway according to 2 Corinthians.

>In response some will make the argument that St. Paul could not know if he were a true believer and so is telling people that he could fall away,

2 Corinthians 13:6 disproves this. There he says, "But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates."

>And therefore, the teaching of the inspired Word is that someone who is in Christ can be damned - ἀδόκιμος.

In 1 Corinthians 9:27, it means rejected by those people, not by God. He acted in a manner so as not to be rejected by the people, which he apparently viewed as possible. Then in 2 Corinthians 13:5-7, he further states that some people in Corinth had indeed treated him as a reprobate, or rejected person, despite his doing things to not have this happen. Whether someone is rejected by a crowd is not the same as being rejected by God, however. In fact, Christ said this—

John 15:

>18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

>19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

>20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

And Paul also wrote this:

1 Corinthians 4:

>12 Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

>13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

This verse is pretty blatant:

Hebrews 10:26-27

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Some more on the demand of doing God's will:

"Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me."

Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

"If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Whence it is written in Job: "The life of man upon earth is a warfare."

John 1:11 "Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God."

"work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

>>851249

>None of the Scripture references quoted thus far teaches that.

Your refusal to consider the warning of the Apostle to the sanctified, that grave sins bar one from Heaven, is an indictment of your heretical position.

>And such WERE some of you

Yes, only some of the sanctified, whom Saint Paul addresses, had committed grave sins and were barred from the Kingdom of Heaven prior to being washed, sanctified and justified. However, this does not exclude the warning of the Apostle: that any of those justified can lose justification, and be barred from the Kingdom, for grave sins.

Turning to John 3:5, early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism, recognising its connection with other Scriptures (Romans 6:3–4; Colossians 2:12; Titus 3:5) as I have already referenced.

>Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

By example:

Irenaeus

>And [Naaman] dipped himself…seven times in the Jordan’ [4 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Cyprian of Carthage

>[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church…then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God…since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Cyril of Jerusalem

>Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

>Are you mistranslating the word for faith as baptism now?

>Ephesians 2:8 says "for by grace are you saved through faith."

Meaning and reference are not synonymous. Besides this obvious point, Galatians 3:26-27 and Colossians 2:12 identify entering Christ Jesus διὰ τῆς πίστεως (through the faith) with water baptism. Now, the Apostle uses this same phrase, διὰ τῆς πίστεως, in Ephesians 2:8 on the subject of receiving initial salvation in Christ, and initial salvation can only come through water baptism. Thus, Ephesians 2:8 through its use of the phrase διὰ τῆς πίστεως refers to water baptism, the instrument which incorporates people into Christ, applies His saving blood, forgives sins and makes them new creations.

>Now we are in a passage [1 Corinthians 6:9-10] dealing with people being punished in this life for committing sins.

Your kindling of falsehoods comes to nothing against the truth. For St. Paul states definitively that those who commit grave sins are barred from the Kingdom of God.

>>851257

>In 1 Corinthians 9:27, it means rejected by those people, not by God.

ἀδόκιμος always refers to the unjustified and the condemned, the word in Scripture always carries a connotation of failing to pass a test and so being worthless.

Now, St. Paul would have no need to chastise his body, and bring it into subjection, if he were being rejected by people. Moreover, St. Paul being a true believer would, as you recognise [John 15:18-20], not be of the world, and so not concern himself with being rejected by people. The Apostle can therefore only be referring to the possibility that even he could fall away if he did not bring his body into subjection.

>2 Corinthians 13:6 disproves this.

2 Corinthians 13:5-7

>Try your own selves if you be in the faith; prove ye yourselves. Know you not your own selves, that Christ Jesus is in you, unless perhaps you be reprobates? But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates. Now we pray God, that you may do no evil, not that we may appear approved, but that you may do that which is good, and that we may be as reprobates.

Here Saint Paul warns, as he does earlier [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], that reprobates - the unjustified - are barred from the Kingdom of Heaven. To wit, he warns to do good for its goodness, and not for approval. This is made yet more clear with the the subsequent verse, "For we can do nothing against the truth; but for the truth. For we rejoice that we are weak, and you are strong. This also we pray for, your perfection. Therefore I write these things, being absent, that, being present, I may not deal more severely, according to the power which the Lord hath given me unto edification, and not unto destruction" [2 Corinthians 13:8-10].

Abandon your heresy and enter the the Catholic Church, the One Church established by Jesus Christ.

>>851063

Faith IS doing God's will. If you truly appreciate what God has done for you, then you will want to please him.

>>851276

How do you understand the demons who believe in Christ? Do you think they are saved?

>>851276

>Not believers, they have never taught this.

Absolutely incorrect and fallacious. Your "No true Scotsman" argument won't pass here. Your position on the inaccuracy of "born again" is obviously wrong given the use of the phrase by early Christian writers on John 3:5, as it emphasises the nature of water baptism - of being born anew.

John 3:3

>Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man γεννηθῇ (gennēthē; be born) ἄνωθεν (anōthen; anew, over again), he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5

>Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man γεννηθῇ (gennēthē; be born) of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:7

>Wonder not, that I said to thee, you all must γεννηθῆναι (gennēthēnai; be born) ἄνωθεν (anōthen; anew, over again).

γεννηθῇ is the aorist passive subjunctive third person singular of its root verb, γεννάω (gennáō; to beget, to birth).

γεννηθῆναι is the aorist passive plural infinitive of its root verb, γεννάω (gennáō; to beget, to birth).

Note the use of the aorist tense, which expresses the past tense of a verb and does not contain any reference to duration or completion of the action.

The Evangelist's passage can only be understood by a consideration of Jesus' use of this one verb across subsequent verses. When this is considered, the birth must be a second birth, and that second birth must be baptism. Hence, the use of the phrase "born again" in John 3:5 is not a mistranslation, but an emphatic point on the nature of baptism.

Do you understand the concept of metaphor, of synecdoche, of reference, and of grammar? For you position is based on a total ignorance of the nature of writing.

Unwilling to consider the argument, here you shift to a discussion on a different point:

>Similarly, there are inaccurate translations of Matthew 6:11 that change the Lord's prayer from "daily bread" to "supersubstantial bread."

The word we translate as “daily” is epiousios. It is a neologism: the first place it appears anywhere is in this very passage of the Gospels. It might therefore be an original composition of Jesus himself. The most direct and straightforward translation is epi, on, upon, above + ousia, being, substance, nature, essence (English “is” and Latin “esse” and Greek “ousia” are all the same word). St. Jerome – the first scholar to translate the Greek NT – translates it into the vulgar Latin as “supersubstantial,” or as we might say today, “supernatural.” In a Thomist mood, we might say “superessential.” Colloquially, we might use the word “heavenly” instead, or “angelic.” Numerous others among the Fathers interpret epiousios in just this way. Jerome says the bread is “above all substances and surpasses all creatures.”

There is only one thing like that: God. So, the supersubstantial bread we are asking God to provide us is the ambrosia the saints and angels eat in Heaven, the manna of the Eucharist: the body of God himself (you know, the stuff that they reserve in the tabernacle of the altar, the way the Israelites reserved a portion of the manna from the wilderness in the Ark of the Covenant, together with the Torah – the Word – and the flowering staff of Aaron – the vine, the Branch of the Tree of Life). In asking for our supersubstantial bread, we are asking God – for the umpteenth time – to make today the day of our Passover, our redemption from sin and death. The Lord’s Prayer is about the Mass.

>>851308

>This is used just as the corrupted version of Matthew 6:11 in the same version, for false doctrine purposes.

Already dealt with, the word "again" is added to more closely express the meaning of Christ's statement in translation. You have failed to address the fact that Jesus' expression here repeatedly uses γεννηθῇ, and His use of γεννηθῇ to indicate γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, through synecdoche typical in speech. Recognition of this point dissolves your argument.

This, in turn, refutes your heretical assertion of "being born of water" as "a reference to the first physical birth," as in John 3:6, Christ says:

John 3:6

>That γεγεννημένον (gegennēmenon; who/which is born) of the flesh, is flesh; and that γεγεννημένον (gegennēmenon; who/which is born) of the Spirit, is spirit.

This word, γεγεννημένον, which is another conjugate of the same root verb, γεννάω (gennáō; to beget, to birth), occurs only twice more in Scripture in the First Epistle of St. John:

1 John 5:1

>Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God. And every one that loveth him who begot, loveth him also γεγεννημένον (gegennēmenon; who/which is born) of him.

1 John 5:4

For γεγεννημένον (gegennēmenon; who/which is born) of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory which overcometh the world, our faith.

In all four of its uses, γεγεννημένον refers to God conferring upon men the nature and disposition of his sons, imparting to them spiritual life, i.e., by His own holy power prompting and persuading souls to put faith in Christ and live a new life consecrated to Himself. The meaning of John 3:6 is thus that man must be born again in the flesh, through water baptism, and in the Spirit, through faith and works.

Your position can be still further refuted. No source in the ancient world uses “born of water” as a locution to refer to natural birth. Moreover, your position renders the first part of Christ's speech redundant: that to get into the Kingdom of God, you must exist.

>>851309

A neologism is not equivalent to a hapaxlegomenon. Regardless, the occurrence of epiousios elsewhere in Scripture is not of issue.

Both uses of ἐπιούσιον (epiousios; aptly substantive, supersubstantial) occur in the Lord's Prayer. That ἐπιούσιον is a neologism and that it occurs only twice, both times in the Lord's Prayer, is critical to its meaning. Yes, ἐπιούσιον is a cognate of ἐπιοῦσα (epiousa; following, next) but the words are never used with equivalence in any respect. For ἐπιοῦσα is always contextualised by ἡμέρᾳ (hémera; a day) [Acts 7:26; 16:11; 20:15; 21:18] or by νυκτὶ (nux; a night) [Acts 23:11].

This is perhaps your single greatest heresy: disrespecting the heavenly quality of the Eucharist.

The translations are weird. Being born of water doesn't make any sense because water is typically a passive feminine force in the Bible. That implies the opposite of what would lead to works.

>>851322

To be born of water is to be physically born. In context its a parallelism.

>>851309

How I understood you, do you think they don't actually affirm Christ? I personally don't see what basis is there to think so. They certainly affirm Christ is the Holy One from God, which is more precise than some of rhe sick being healed whose "faith healed them" according to Christ.

I guess I don't understand if or how you differenciate "faith" from "affirmation". Could explain this in the perspective of those who claim faith alone?

>>851438

>How I understood you, do you think they don't actually affirm Christ?

Ok, so it speaks very clearly in the Gospels about the devils which were cast out, who admitted that Christ is the Son of God and the Holy One upon encountering Him. This is true, they say this, and it is also a true statement.

However, it is still another question of whether or not they actually believe He is Lord and God. You might think, what other reason would a deceiving spirit have to confess the obvious truth, except that they believed he was God manifest in the flesh and had no other way out. You might think that, but you notice, they never actually went that far. They went part of the way, to the point of admitting He was good, and yes it is true they confessed He was the Son of God, the Son of David and so on. It would seem that faced with Him, they had no choice but to admit this. And I'm not trying to detract from that at all. But you will notice, there are false heresies that will go that far, as well. The Arians for instance, and the adoptionists. They say he is the Son of God, but don't mean it in the right way.

I'm simply saying nothing of what those devils said went all the way to what the apostle John described in 1 John 4:3, where he wrote this statement:

>2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

>3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Of course this statement is true. It is a truism and always is true in every situation, including the time of Christ. So it is interesting that none of these devils and demons being casted out ever admitted things to the level that would make what John, the apostle, said here be false.

Now, if they really believed that Jesus was Lord, would they even be unclean and rebellious spirits? St. Paul said, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" I would consider that question then in light of the whole counsel of God we have from the Holy Spirit inspired Scripture.

I think I said before, the only other thing we really have here is the statement in James 2. There, we learn that the devils believe that there is "one God." So we know that there are deceiving and unclean spirits that go that far. Do they accept Christ Jesus as Lord? Again, on the full basis above, I do not think so. Again, false religions like Judaism and Islam affirm monotheism. But they are unitarians: Those are devil-inspired false religions. And I do not think this is a coincidence. Any antichrist ideology or philosophy is ultimately going to be satanic in origin. It is people without light of God's word stumbling in the darkness and being taken advantage of.

One of the ways to explain why the devils went part of the way towards admitting the divinity of Christ, without going to outright confession, is simply because it would cause the onlookers to come to wrong conclusions. Many people, like the scribes and Pharisees, would see this as an opportunity to advance this false narrative that the devils were "willingly cooperating with Christ simply because they were secretly on the same side." The evidence is that they later accused Christ of this very thing, despite it being false. And of course that accusation of Jesus led into his house divided prophecy. But I know one thing for sure, which is that those wicked spirits were up to no good. They were doing something not good. Jesus Christ would never rebuke someone to be quiet if they were not sinning in some way by their speech. So that's how I know they were up to no good and this was not an honest conversion. Rather there was an intent to deceive buried in this action somewhere. And thus, I would consider anything that the demons speak out loud to be an "unreliable witness." Similar to the witch at Endor. We cannot assume that they even believe the things they say. Nor the things they want you to think they are saying, that you might normally conclude they must be thinking, but not actually outright saying. Hopefully that makes sense as with regard to "unreliable witnesses." Very untrustworthy.

James, however, is trustworthy, but he simply informs us that they believe that "there is one God." Not that they believe Christ Jesus is Lord and Savior. He never says that they believe that: and for good reason, because it's not true.

>I guess I don't understand if or how you differenciate "faith" from "affirmation".

Different conversation.

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ and have a happy New Year and Christmas if you celebrated it yet.