acab7d No.849417
____________________________
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d7b5e1 No.849419
Sophia means wisdom. Wisdom is personified in the old testament as a literary device, but its not really a being like in some Greek conceptions.
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d365b2 No.849431
>>849417
In orthodoxy, it's a name for Christ imbued withe activity of the Holy Spirit.
Sectarians and other religions have many other ideas about it.
>>849419
This is not an argument since it might be said of any subject in Scripture, like angels and even Yahweh, and often is by modern revisionists.
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d7b5e1 No.849435
>>849431
You're right its not an argument, its an observation of something that's obvious in scripture
The word wisdom is nearly always used as an attribute.
>Solomon’s wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the sons of the east and all the wisdom of Egypt.
>For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness”;
In proverbs 9 wisdom is personified. Proverbs is not historical prose
>Wisdom has built her house, She has hewn out her seven pillars;
If you intend to argue that this is not personification then you must think there is a real, literal house with food and wine.
If you think this is Christ then you're referring to Christ as a she.
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d7b5e1 No.849436
>>849435
Actually let me add that Christ is referred to as the wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24
Elsewhere Jesus refers to the personification of wisdom who is not him Matthew 11
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d365b2 No.849448
>>849435
>Christ as she
Do you speak only English? This is all gendered languages function. For example, life is feminine in Greek as well.
"The life was given to men" does not mean it is a feminine personification of life, it just means Christ. Likewise with vine and wisdom, that are also feminine.
If wisdom is not Christ but a personification, the life is not Christ but a personification and the grapevine is not Christ but a personification.
If your English Bible has wisdom as a she, it's a mistake because English is not gendered.
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d7b5e1 No.849450
>>849448
No… You're conflating grammatical gender with female characters. In proverbs 9 wisdom is a person, and that person is female.
We know this person is not Christ because she is female. The remaining question is if she is real or not, and I argue she is not. Its just a standard personification common to poetic/proverbial literature. This is the mainstream opinion btw
>If wisdom is not Christ but a personification, the life is not Christ but a personification and the grapevine is not Christ but a personification.
That doesn't follow at all. Those are spiritual terms or metaphors.
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1d5b6a No.849453
>>849450
>>849450
Yeah we agree with you that it's a metaphor, that doesn't mean it's not something true about God. Jesus being the Son of God is a metaphor, the Fatherhood of God is a metaphor, Jesus being the Word of God is a metaphor, but these things are still true of God, God has given us ways to correctly speak and think about him for our salvation.
Χριστὸν θεοῦ δύναμιν καὶ θεοῦ σοφίαν
Christon theou dunamin kai theou sophian
Christ is the power and wisdom of God 1 Corinthians 1:24
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d365b2 No.849454
>>849450
No, I'm not conflating anything. I speak Greek and French, I am familiar with gendered languages.
Let me rephrase myself, if we misunderstood each other. My point is that you're being inconsistent in having one exegesis to "wisdom" and another to every other title.
Were we to apply your mistaken view of wisdom consistently to other terms, we would reach absurdity. Therefore, the only way for there to be consistency in Scripture is if wisdom is to be regarded as a title for Christ like any other - power, light, vine, tree.
English translations are inconsistent if they call wisdom a "she" while calling other titles by "the" even if they are "he" or "she" in the Greek.
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1d5b6a No.849458
>>849454
I also think Sophia could mainly be thought of as an energy of God, like love, grace, truth, life, etc. A lot of Russian theologians have advocated this in response to the unfortunate heresy of Sophianism that plagued the Russian Church in the late 19th and early 20th century, but Sophia being seen as an energy of God is has been much more well received by the Church since it fits well with the historic teachings of Orthodoxy. Basically Sophia/Wisdom is manifested through the Church, which is spoken of as the body of Christ, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church. This actually makes sense too, given how the Church is metaphorically described as the Bride of Christ and united to Christ as a single flesh (Ephesians 5:25-33). Scripture has wonderful metaphors which are true things about God and his relationship to us as humans.
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d7b5e1 No.849461
>>849453
I'm not arguing its without meaning but I also wouldn't say logos is a metaphor
>>849454
You're making the opposite error of treating all titles or symbolic language the same instead of investigating the context of each one.
Proverbs 9 personifies wisdom. Wisdom is elsewhere spoken of without personification as merely the concept, like knowledge. In another instance Jesus is called the wisdom of the father.
There is a heresy to guard against where one thinks of wisdom as a divine being. This heresy has one vocal proponent on our board.
I would like to point out that in this conversation it is you who interjected to call me wrong
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d7b5e1 No.849464
>>849453
I'm not arguing its without meaning but I also wouldn't say logos is a metaphor
>>849454
You're making the opposite error of treating all titles or symbolic language the same instead of investigating the context of each one.
Proverbs 9 personifies wisdom. Wisdom is elsewhere spoken of without personification as merely the concept, like knowledge. In another instance Jesus is called the wisdom of the father.
There is a heresy to guard against where one thinks of wisdom as a divine being. This heresy has one vocal proponent on our board.
I would like to point out that in this conversation it is you who interjected to call me wrong
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1d5b6a No.849467
>>849464
So are you saying God has a literal mouth and that in the beginning he literally spoke reasonable speech as the Logos from a literal mouth and that that speech is literally Jesus? Or that Christ is literally the reason of God? I doubt that. But again, that doesn't mean it's not true about God, because it is. God made the world through Christ, and as beings with speech the Bible uses that as a metaphor for the creative activity of God in the Book of Genesis and also the Gospel of John as a way to express something to us about what kind of God we worship and who God in a way which we can understand. God is metaphysically above us, he cannot be truly described in his essence, he is a supra-essential being completely beyond any and all of our categories of being. The only way we can know God in through his activities in the world and and through certain ways of speaking and thinking about him i.e. by metaphors, which are revealed to us through revelation, which is apart of God's activities manifested through the world.
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1d5b6a No.849469
>>849464
>There is a heresy to guard against where one thinks of wisdom as a divine being. This heresy has one vocal proponent on our board.
Nobody is saying Wisdom is a literal divine being in the sense of being a goddess or a separate hypostasis within God. That has been no one's understanding. Wisdom/Sophia is personified within Christ, Wisdom is personified within the Holy Spirit, Wisdom is personified within the Church, Wisdom is an activity of God within the world, something which is revealed through God, something which is true of God.
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c4a535 No.849470
Should I even bother telling the truth or would that be giving what's holy to the dogs?
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d365b2 No.849472
>>849464
We should treat proverbs 9 and wisdom the same way the rest of Scripture treats them. My only argument is that.
>>849470
You couldn't keep your mouth shut to not be smug, I doubt you could do it next time.
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d7b5e1 No.849474
>>849472
Yes, and reading scripture in light of scripture leads us to the conclusion that wisdom is not a person
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c4a535 No.849475
>>849472
I'm not even trying to. You're just so insecure anything I say triggers you.
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d365b2 No.849482
>>849474
It's Christ, just like when it calls Christ wisdom elsewhere and in other titles.
There is a perspective that makes sense holistically and is thus superior to many perspectives that make sense only in parts or groups of parts.
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d7b5e1 No.849484
>>849482
You're telling me that you see no problem substituting "Christ" for "wisdom" in proverbs 9
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44ff57 No.849490
>>849484
[Christ] has built [his] house (incarnation),
[He] has carved out [his] seven pillars (sacraments);
2 [He] has prepared [his] food, [he] has mixed [his] wine;
[He] has also set [his] table (Eucharist);
3 [He] has sent out [his] attendants (apostles), [he] calls out
From the tops of the heights of the city:
4 “Whoever is naive, let him turn in here!” (Ministry of Christ)
To him who lacks understanding [he] says,
5 “Come, eat of my bread
And drink of the wine I have mixed. (Eucharist again)
6 Abandon your foolishness and live,
And proceed in the way of understanding
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d7b5e1 No.849491
>>849490
It is incorrect to translate all those as "he". The text is correctly translated she. Before you say I again, no this isn't a grammatical gender thing.
You're reading all the rest of that into the text anyway, did you read that somewhere or is this your own interpretation.
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44ff57 No.849495
>>849491
….I substituted in the he in response to your post implying Christ cannot be substituted in… I didn't translate anything… But he clearly can, because Proverbs 9 is a prophecy concerning Christ. You honestly sound like a Jew by denying this is about Christ. That's what Jews do when you try to show them that Christ is very present in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is meant to be read in light of the New since the New fulfils the old, Christ fulfills it all. Christ can be found on nearly every page in the Old Testament. You read it like a Jew though. 2 Corinthians 3:6
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d7b5e1 No.849500
>>849495
Let's stay on topic
It is incorrect to substitute "he" in Proverbs 9. The text says "she". I will repeat that this is not simply a matter of grammatical gender.
As the easiest example look at verse 4 https://biblehub.com/text/proverbs/9-4.htm
"’ā-mə-rāh", "she says".
"amar" is "to say". "amerah" becomes "she said".
There are fourteen other instances of this exact word in the Hebrew OT, all of them translated "she said" https://biblehub.com/hebrew/amerah_559.htm.
If you believe the person in Proverbs 9 is Christ, you are saying it is appropriate at least in this one instance to refer to Christ as a she.
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c959f3 No.849504
>>849500
Bro this has nothing to do with the grammar. I substituted it in to make sense with what I was already substituting in for Christ. It is a clear prophecy concerning Christ, but you read like a Jew and don't understand that, and you are undermining Christ by doing that.
>If you believe the person in Proverbs 9 is Christ, you are saying it is appropriate at least in this one instance to refer to Christ as a she.
Well yes, there is no problem with that. That doesn't mean Christ is a feminine, it just means that a feminine metaphor is personified within Christ. Wisdom and other female metaphors like the Bride are also personified in the Holy Spirit, in the Church, in Mary, in Israel, in Jerusalem, etc.
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d7b5e1 No.849506
>>849504
>Wisdom and other female metaphors
Are you now agreeing that wisdom is not a being like I have been trying to point out this whole time?
Can you stop being combative? I'm just trying to have a conversation.
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c959f3 No.849509
>>849506
I never said that she was. Nobody is saying that she is.
>Can you stop being combative?
I'm being the combative one? Dude you literally took no time to comprehend what I've been saying, all you've been doing is jumping to conclusions.
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d7b5e1 No.849511
>>849509
>I never said that she was. Nobody is saying that she is.
>>849431
>This (the statement wisdom is not a being) is not an argument
>>849448
>If wisdom is not Christ but a personification
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c959f3 No.849512
>>849511
I don't understand what you're attempting to get at here. I, and others, have already explained to you what Wisdom/Sophia is. All I can say is read the Church Fathers, they interpret what scripture calls Wisdom in a variety of ways, all of which are valid ways of personifying Wisdom and all of which find fulfilment in the Gospel.
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a6b582 No.849626
I'm just going to throw this out there. I don't like equating Jesus to Wisdom because Jesus being described as a woman in Proverbs and then a warrior king in Revelation strikes me as… odd, and doesn't seem to fit in with natural law.
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