/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>847988

It's the oldest tradition at least. In Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls, they list demons as the "spirits of the bastards". That would be Nephilim. You can take it or leave it, if you want. It's not "biblical", but it's a tradition that predates even the New Testament and part of ancient Jewish thinking outside the bible.

>>847989

That is valuable, thanks

Is there anything concrete linking "bastards" to nephilim? How prevalent is that reading?

>>847991

>if you take good care of your soul by not sinning and not doing things that harm your ability to think rationally then you will function very well in the afterlife and be in heaven

Off topic but you are openly declaring salvation of works, more so than the official doctrine of the rcc states

Read Ephesians 2 again

>>847994

Logic itself comes from the grace of God in the first place and you need faith (the ability to see a thought process through) to think logically. So no it's not only through works.

>>847990

Enoch chapter 10 called them "bastards":

"And to Gabriel said the Lord: "Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication."

Later on, Chapter 15 pretty much spells out the origins of evil spirits. It explains that evil spirits are these Nephilim who were killed - but can not be destroyed completely, as they are the offspring of heavenly beings:

"And now the giants who were born from spirits and flesh will be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth will be their dwelling. And evil spirits came out from their flesh because from above they were created; from the holy Watchers was their origin and first foundation. Evil spirits they will be on the earth, and spirits of the evil ones they will be called. And the dwelling of the spirits of heaven is in heaven, but the dwelling of the spirits of earth, who were born on the earth, is on earth. And the spirits of the giants . . . which do wrong and are corrupt, and attack and fight and break on the earth, and cause sorrow; and they eat no food and do not thirst, and are not observed. And these spirits will rise against the sons of men and against the women because they came out from them."

The Dead Sea Scrolls (especially Song of the Sage or "4Q510" and "4Q511") lists them among some other spirits (I'll get into that later):

"And I, the Instructor, proclaim His glorious splendor so as to frighten and to terrify all the spirits of the destroying angels, spirits of the bastards, demons, Lilith, howlers, and desert dwellers … and those which fall upon men without warning to lead them astray from a spirit of understanding"

So the Qumran sect knew of this tradition of "bastards" as well. It may have been independent from Enoch or learned from Enoch. We don't know. I think it must be older than Enoch, because they also name Lilith and desert dwellers - and those are actually biblical and mentioned in Isaiah. Which I should touch on. These are another group of demons, but attested to in canonical scripture.

In Isaiah (34:14), some translations obscure "Lilit" by translating it as "nightbird" or "screech owl". It's not inaccurate per se, but can be misleading to someone who doesn't know better. I've seen some ignorant scholars who actually think he's talking about a plain bird. The Hebrew is Lilit. And Lilith is not a "single" female "seductress" demon or any other fanciful Hollywood nonsense. It is a type of demon. There are many "Liliths". The single "Lilith" idea is a much later medieval myth. The earliest origins of it are the Lilitu demons of ancient Sumer. Very old indeed. And very real….. Believe me or not, I've encountered one (before I was saved, and susceptible to darkness). It is not "THE Lilith", but "a lilith". The reason the King James Translators and others used "screech owl" or "nightbird" is because it is some kind of giant winged monstrosity. Wings large enough to hear a loud swooping sound. And she screeches like a giant owl that doesn't exist in any zoo. It's blood curdling. It's a sin for me to swear, but I kid you not. I really am not joking at all. And I think many people know of it more than they realize. In Mexico and Texas and other areas, they have myths of "Lachusa", for example. They claim it's some witch who can turn into a giant owl and snatches babies. But it is not a witch. That's where they're wrong. Mexicans have some truth to their folktales, but get carried away with it. It's a demon. I've discovered that other cultures have similar variations too. Like in Asia. I don't know where they come from or how they relate to the "bastards" above, but maybe it's all part of the same group of damned spirits who started wandering the earth after the flood.

The Dead Sea Scrolls mentioned other ones like howlers and "desert dwellers". Isaiah hints at things like this too, but calls them names like jackals. Not literal jackals, but damned creatures who roam wastelands and prey on fallen, sinful civilizations like the Lilitu demon. Isaiah also mentions "wild goats" (KJV translated it as satyrs). To this day, the Arab world speaks of crazy things out in the desert, like the Jinn, who can take multiple forms. Personally, I think it's all part of it. But I can't prove it… and probably will never be able to.

>>847991

>>847995

Oh, it's the "Bible is corrupted" EMJ faggot again.

>>848032

I'm not going to hold it against EMJ at least. Isn't he a traditionalist Roman Catholic? He should understand the threat of the demonic world then. It's only the traditionalists left in their denomination who are wise enough to discern demonic threats and conduct exorcisms. The rest have been consumed by demonic entities themselves and are no better than the rest of the fallen world. I would not equate EMJ with this degenerate larper.

I see a theological problem: ghosts are not a thing in Christianity

<As it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

>>848041

This isnt a question of ghosts, and nephilim aren't men

>>848032

I don't watch EMJ and the Bible isn't corrupted as a whole but humans make it corrupt by cherrypicking verses that go against the general message of the Bible. So yeah, if you're going to act in bad faith and cherrypick then I will call the Bible corrupted because you cryptos make it such, and distort it into something different from the wise Bible I read growing up. winnie the pooh you, kikes. I grew up Catholic. You're the larpers infiltrating my religion to try to repurpose it to serve your evil ends. Go to hell where Jesus says you belong. And if EMJ spreads the same message of logic and love of God I do then God bless him. We need more logical Catholics in the world than just a few Thomist priests and like 7 laity who actually even bother to try to treat Christianity as something logical that exists in the real world and not just a fictional lore no one takes seriously like Star Wars.

>>848033

All that glitters is not gold

>>848045

Imagine going to a Christian board on 8kun and kvetching this much about the Word of God. You've totally lost the plot. "Just pay attention to me and my logic."

Go back to Reddit or even Christian forums. You'll find plenty of scripture hating faggots there for you.

>>848033

And winnie the pooh you, hypocrite, for calling me a larper when I've been a Catholic my whole life and you probably only joined recently since it was trendy last election.

>>848048

>You'll find plenty of scripture hating faggots there for you.

That's because no normal Christian worships scripture. The entire point of the Bible is the story contained within, not some random offhand comments from Paul that when mistranslated into English sound vaguely like something a modern liberal political party said. An out of context quote from the Bible is inferior to logic in Christianity. The Saints like Augustine used logic and reason in their analysis of scripture. St. Paul even says his superior rationality is what gives him the authority to teach and punish.

>>848050

>>848049

I really like your posts and want to know your opinion in all threads, would you start name posting?

>>848033

Modernism is one type of error. Catholicism is another error. Both of these are unbiblical. Just because you avoid the first error, does not automatically mean you are error-free.

It does not matter if you are "traditionalist" if that still signifies a manmade cult that does not respect the Holy Scripture. Now actual traditionalists would follow the Bible, not manmade sayings of the popes. For one cannot serve two masters, it must be either God or man.

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." - Gospel of Luke 16:13

>>848048

It seems probably, that someone wanted to shut this board down. They didn't like the content of the discussions for some reason. So they crafted this bizarre persona of a person that actually hates scripture and paid some people to start posting this on here daily, just to derail threads. It's like one of those intеrnеt rеsеarсh agеnсy things.

>>848050

Nigga, if you wanna jerk off over and worship abstract concepts, just become an OG pre-christian Neoplatonist, and leave us alone with your blasphemous nonsense.

>>848132

I'm beginning to think that Rome was excommunicated for more than just the Popery or Filioque. The amount of appeal to Plato, Aristotle, or "Logic" is embarrassing to witness. God is known by Revelation.

Seventh Ecumenical Council:

To them who undertake Greek studies not only for purposes of education but also follow after their vain opinions, and are so thoroughly convinced of their truth and validity that they shamelessly introduce them and teach them to others, sometimes secretly and sometimes openly,

Anathema (3)

To them who of themselves refashion creation by means of mythical fabrications and accept the Platonic ideas as veritable, saying that matter, being self-subsistent, is given form by these ideas, and who thereby clearly calumniate the free will of the Creator Who brought all things into being out of non-being and Who, as Maker, established the beginning and end of all things by His authority and sovereignty,

Anathema (3)

>>848135

Orthos fell to communism because they lack logic and reason.

>>848139

Those are anathemas written down in the Seventh Ecumenical Council. Something even Roman Catholics say they follow, but you're just proving how far they've lost the plot, as I said. You don't follow even the Ecumenical Councils. You follow pagan pedophiles and faggots (not to mention tyrant enablers) like classical Greek philosophers. You don't even pick the good philosophers either (like the Ionians) who applied logic to real world applications. No, instead you pick Rationalism, which saw Logic as a thing unto itself, and set back humanity for eons with navel gazing faggotry.

Like the Council says, a curse be upon you. Until you repent, the curse will stay. You can not go against something stated by the united, truly catholic church of 754 AD.

>>848143

>There is only baptists. There has only ever been baptists.

You're just as troubled as the guy above. If you can't even embrace the words of a once united church, I don't have much to say. You've cut off everything at that point. I'll let the Council speak for itself: Anathema. As for your alternate history, this is Adventist tier foolishness. When you need to invent alternate world histories just to justify yourself, you've also lost the plot, like Logic guy above. This is what other cults do too. They cut off all communication from the known world and expect total submission to their own peculiar bubble in the universe. No thanks. I'd rather protect my sanity.

-

On a sidenote, before the other guy says it, Logic is not Logos. Logos is all encompassing, and specifically conveys a sense of spoken command or discourse. Logike is Logic. Even Jerome knew that. He also knew Jewish background, and Hebrew and Aramaic so much that he joked that he lost his sense of Latin. He lived in Palestine and knew that Logos was a translation itself and was referring back to the Aramaic Memra (the Word). He chose "Verbum" for a good reason. Logos was never an excuse to embrace neoplatonic faggotry or mingle the Gospel with Classical Greek Philosophers. This is precisely the error that Mani and Gnostics did, and the kind of thing the Councils continually protected the flock from.

>>847988

>>848144

>or mingle the Gospel with Classical Greek Philosophers

Holy fukk, you are dense. Jesus used Greek rhetorical devices in the sermon on the mount and the New Testament is written in Greek. Both Jesus and John who called Him Logos knew the Greek implication of the word as Logic. There's logos, pathos, and ethos. Back then Logos was the study of logic. Greeks knew it because they used the word that way and Jesus and John knew it too because they obviously were immersed in Greek culture and utilized it to their advantage. If you want to take issue with Greek influence on Christianity you're taking issue with the infallible New Testament writers. Grow the winnie the pooh up. Your s—ty religion was so vulnerable to communism because as ironic as it sounds it rejects logic for the sake of intellectual masturbation. Anatolia was holding a debate over the gender of angels while the Turks were conquering them.

>>848135

Nah, the RC's are decent, if exaggerated.

The "everything must be subordinated to neoplatonism" fag is just insane.

>>848159

It's rather uncharitable and hypocritical to mislabel someone trying to introduce logic and reason into discourse insane just so you can dismiss their ideas even though they have a point. What you're doing is just more social shaming bs to corrupt God intended rational discourse.

>>848166

Plotinus, go jerk yourself off somewhere else.