/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>847355

Pretty much everything outside of the basics of our faith(Trinity, Jesus as Saviour, Bible is holy, there should be services and baptism, etc.)

We do have positive relations with more old-school prots that haven't gone liberal yet.

>>847371

>You don't know what the church was like in the first century

Bless the heavens we have uneducated boomers 21 centuries later to tell us the orthodox church is not older than the Roman Catholic, then.

There is a firm barrier of language, culture and history between Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy that makes dialog between us exceptionally difficult

>>847435

Most protestants I've met can't even fathom the concept of prelest. In the other way around, I can't fathom how they don't. I just don't understand how they understand things.

Eastern Orthodoxy is just a spin off of Roman Catholicism, really. All it is idolatry, idolatry, idolatry, and like the Roman Catholics they think their silly little rituals have any merit to them.

>>847437

"They can't fathom" or "they can't understand" is an argument that invariably makes you out to be the ignorant one

>>847439

I didn't say they were unaware, I said they can't understand me and I can't undertand how they think.

Yours is another position that I simply do not understand. I do not understand why protestants often suppose differences in perspectives are due to "ignorance" and that everyone also abides in this framework.

>>847448

>I do not understand why protestants often suppose differences in perspectives are due to "ignorance" and that everyone also abides in this framework.

It's not just Protestants. Everyone does this. I just quote SR71 to them. "Don't hit me with your fears. I don't think with your ideas."

>>847448

We are not mutually unintelligible. I am capable of understanding you and vice versa.

>>847448

This >>847451

And personally I hate that people do this since it is often used as a copout (and invalid) argument "your position is just because you're ignorant of what I believe"

>>847453

As a Protestant who has spoken with knowledgeable Eastern Orthodox about theology online for a couple years it can often be very difficult for us to actually understand each other, mainly due to >>847435

>>847355

I think that old school Anglicans and Methodists have a quite a bit in common with Orthodox actually. Out of all Protestants, they are the most similar. Especially Methodists, who necessarily place an emphasis on sanctification and don't teach Calvinism (Anglicans can go either way). There's even stories that John Wesley himself was ordained by an exiled Orthodox bishop - Erasmus of Arcadia. From here, Wesley ordained others himself, and sent them out to America to spread the Gospel and build churches. Consider the implications of this unspoken of tale. The American church, especially Methodism, may very well have some Orthodox history, as far back as it's founding. At the very least, if not Wesley, other Methodists were ordained.

"In 1763, the Greek bishop, who was visiting London at the time, is believed to have consecrated John Wesley a bishop by some Methodists, and ordained several Methodist lay preachers as priests, including John Jones and Thomas Bryant. However, its believed Wesley could not openly announce his episcopal consecration without incurring the penalty of the Præmunire Act. In light of Wesley's alleged episcopal consecration by Erasmus, some believe that Methodists lay a claim on apostolic succession, as understood in the traditional sense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_of_Arcadia

>>847371

The Early Church was far closer to Eastern Orthodoxy than it is to Protestantism. Sola Scriptura is not in The Bible.

>>847555

Lol ignore this post, mistake

>>847553

Which begs the question, who is actually Protestant or not? Since I spoke for Methodists above, I'll continue to do so. In the Wesley Quadrilateral, there are listed 4 methods of ascertaining the truth, where Scripture holds the first place: Scripture, Tradition, Reason, Experience (this is similar to Anglicans, but Wesley added the fourth, Experience).

This is "Prima Scriptura". Not "Sola Scriptura".

"Scripture is considered the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Tradition is experience and the witness of development and growth of the faith through the past centuries and in many nations and cultures. Experience is the individual's understanding and appropriating of the faith in the light of his or her own life. Through reason the individual Christian brings to bear on the Christian faith discerning and cogent thought. These four elements taken together bring the individual Christian to a mature and fulfilling understanding of the Christian faith and the required response of worship and service."

https://www.umc.org/en/content/glossary-wesleyan-quadrilateral-the

>>847567

Respectfully I disagree with your judgment. The article from a methodist makes a compelling case

>>847568

Ah! You're quick. Sorry about this. I deleted my post and was just going to edit.

Let me start over:

No. The Quadriliteral comes straight from Anglican tradition, as I said. Wesley only added a 4th (Experience). Anglicanism is not a historically Continental Protestant tradition to begin with. It is part of the English Reformation. Not Luther's Reformation. It didn't even start with Henry either. English clerics seized that moment, but this was a movement that was already brewing for centuries, starting with men like Wycliffe, and even Catholic humanists like Thomas More or Erasmus. They indeed wanted to simplify the excessive traditions being taught and placed scripture as the first authority, but not the only authority. The later English Church struggled to find ways to strike this balance, but you could say that Richard Hooker was the first theologian to articulate the "threefold" doctrine of "Scripture, Tradition, and Reason".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hooker

These were not all typical Reformers. And they didn't always get along with Calvinists either. The Puritans were a constant thorn in England's side, and ended up murdering the King of England himself. People finally kicked them all out and restored the English church and monarchy. This history with typical Protestantism and Anglicanism is not all sunshine and roses. They're not the same.

This is where Wesley emerged. He built upon a lot of the same ideas. Especially this one.

Ligonier is RC Sproul's ministry. They're all Calvinists and think the world revolves around them. It doesn't. Wesley himself started a Magazine called the Arminian! He did specifically to distance himself from Methodists who embraced Calvinism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesleyan_Methodist_Magazine

>>847568

You're jumping into something you don't even know about. There's a lot of Evangelicals trying to rewrite history within the Church. Why do you think Methodists are having a giant split as we speak? Some are well meaning, and have valid concerns about morality, but their arguments are bogus when it comes to history.

>>847559

But Methodism has been corrupted by Modernists. They're almost as lost as the Non-Continuing Anglicans.

>>847570

Modernists are the same everywhere. There's faggots speaking for Orthodox at Rutgers churning out papers pushing out "woke" ideology. You can't blame all Orthodox for it.

There's also a small revolt going on in Orthodox churches who are annoyed that a monastic movement is moving in and making their churches more strict. These were just cultural Christians (Greeks) who just wanted to have a social gathering and to have bake sales. Suddenly you got long bearded guys from St. Anthony's monastery telling guys when and where they can even date or speak to girlfriends. It's driving people nuts. The monks have the right idea, but almost EVERYONE is "modern" and isn't used to anything else.

>>847571

I don't know why I said Rutgers. My bad. I meant Fordham.

https://www.fordham.edu/info/23001/orthodox_christian_studies_center

Exhibit A: Eastern Orthodoxy and Sexual Diversity

https://www.fordham.edu/download/downloads/id/14010/BV_Report.pdf

Just by the title alone, you know it's going to be a doozy.

>>847573

The Conservative or Liberal strife has nothing to do with these Calvinist larpers. At best, some of them are just using the conservative concerns to inject their own agenda.

And I could show you a scholar myself, who's also a conservative, and he'll tell you the very same thing I just did about the English Reformation. Take time to listen to it. It's not long. He's a Methodist preacher too and a professor at Asbury, which is strictly a Methodist school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3TJJCCdH4&ab_channel=Seedbed

Seedbed itself (that youtube channel) is a conservative Wesleyan channel. You'll learn more there about CONSERVATIVE Methodists than reading "Ligonier". What are you even thinking? As I said, that's RC Sproul's ministry. It's Presbyterian. They don't know a thing about Methodists or Anglicans. I also just showed you that Wesley himself made an Arminian magazine. He's not a typical Protestant. It's stupid to say otherwise.

>>847577

This autistic nonsense is ruining this thread

>>847577

Woah, just take it easy man

My two points were that the quadrilateral is misleading and that sola scriptura doesn't mean rejecting the use of tradition, reason, experience and so on, meaning Anglicans and Methodists are not outside the sola scriptura tradition.

I think you assumed I was making some argument

Ligonier is just a resource.

Arminians aren't atypical Protestants, neither are Calvinists. They're both just protestant.

>>847580

I'm not autistic. I'd tell you if I was. You're suffering from something far worse though: A lack of curiosity about Church history and theology. Why even come on a Christian board if you feel the need to lash out about normal things that Christians tend to talk about? It'd be different if I was talking about something stupid like "comic books" or even politics, but you're resorting to name calling for talking about Christians on a board named /christian/.

And this is exactly what this thread is about. It's not ruining anything about the original intent. That is, the debate between Orthodox and Protestants. And I'm telling you there's a whole wing of Protestantism that has less inherent strife with Orthodox than others.

>>847584

Sola Scriptura almost always means rejection of everything else. If you think otherwise, we're more alike: Which is Prima Scriptura.

Whether it was originally intended or not, Sola Scriptura has come to mean a rejection of those other methods. Especially Tradition. That one is most especially evident. Some are just less radical in how far they take it (like Lutherans). While Baptists are almost devoid of appreciation or curiosity or even build an entire worldview of conspiracy theories around church traditions (such as the "Constantine invented the 'church system' meme").

>>847587

>Sola Scriptura almost always means rejection of everything else.

No, and again see the ligonier article

>While Baptists are almost devoid of appreciation or curiosity or even build an entire worldview of conspiracy theories around church traditions

Total misrepresentation to the level of spite

http://www.centerforbaptistrenewal.com/

>>847588

It's not spiteful. It's just the truth. They even pride themselves on it. So why would it be spiteful. They chose that identity for their own selves. I just point it out.

When's the last time ANYONE here has heard a Baptist strengthening their argument by using the Church Fathers? Never. You'll never see them engage in arguments the way Orthodox do especially. Not gonna happen. At best, some KJV Only Baptists will quote mine what little they can of the Patristic writings to defend KJV Only positions, saying "Look. Such and such used the Textus Receptus here". Otherwise, they don't care for it.

Nor do they talk about any saints or have any resembling that type of fondness for a tradition of great people in Church history. Their only sense of fondness for figures throughout history recourses back to "Sola Scriptura". That is, they only ever remember Preachers and see the Pulpit as the center of a saintly life. Those who held up Sola Scripture are held up as giants. You'll never hear them talk about great deeds or miracles, and wouldn't even call their virtuous grandmas as particularly saintly or remarkable. They only ever see Preachers. 24/7. That's the only image of a godly person in the Baptist mind. And it streams both from Sola Fide and this carelessness of tradition. It's even considered wrong to point out people's deeds like this. If it isn't Preaching the Word, it isn't notable.

>>847590

I am a baptist and I do all the time

Matt slick of carm is a baptist

William lane Craig is a baptist

A plurality of seminary students are baptists

King James only Baptists are an unrepresentative minority, and even among that field there is not a rejection of history and tradition. You are basing your perception on an anecdotal experience online, probably in the Steven Anderson crows

Once again could you please click the links I am sharing with you for the sake of our discussion? Its getting annoying

>>847591

You are the anomaly. Not them. Anderson's on an even more extreme end than usual, but everyday Baptists aren't talking about traditions much either. I could go to a typical Baptist bookstore (don't know any these days except Lifeway, which shut down), and I won't find a section on saints in the Baptist church. I might find a section of biographies on great preachers though. Or Quotation books or Devotionals which are compiled with sayings of preachers. Let alone find calendars or something celebrating great events or saints. Methodists are similar to the extent that we don't have a veneration of saints either, but even we celebrate All Saint's Day and don't look down on anyone who does a little more with specific saints. Anglicans even moreso. I know Baptists aren't Anabaptists, but it sure seems they learned a lot from them. They're radically "streamlined", even without mentioning Anderson.

>>847585

>I'm not autistic. I'd tell you if I was

If anything this response makes me think you may actually have autism

>>847571

>Modernists are the same everywhere. There's faggots speaking for Orthodox at Rutgers churning out papers pushing out "woke" ideology. You can't blame all Orthodox for it.

Yeah, but Orthodoxy doesn't allow women to be priests and every major Methodist denomination does. Methodism is so woke that it's beyond saving.

>There's also a small revolt going on in Orthodox churches who are annoyed that a monastic movement is moving in and making their churches more strict. These were just cultural Christians (Greeks) who just wanted to have a social gathering and to have bake sales. Suddenly you got long bearded guys from St. Anthony's monastery telling guys when and where they can even date or speak to girlfriends. It's driving people nuts. The monks have the right idea, but almost EVERYONE is "modern" and isn't used to anything else.

That's good if it chases the woke away. What're the Orthodox rules on dating? I'm only an Orthodox-adjacent so I don't know. I thought it was limited to no premarital sex, make sure to marry Orthodox, etc.

>>847572

Those are a vocal minority. In Methodism they're all semi-woke or woke.

>>847573

Exactly why I want nothing to do with Methodism. It's been coopted by Liberals. The Conservatives are the minority. If there was a lively, Conservative Methodist denomination with traditional liturgy I'd consider attending it though.

>>847590

>When's the last time ANYONE here has heard a Baptist strengthening their argument by using the Church Fathers?

I've seen them do it many times

>You'll never see them engage in arguments the way Orthodox do

I should hope not, Eastern Orthodoxy is grossly unbiblical

>At best, some KJV Only Baptists will quote mine what little they can of the Patristic writings to defend KJV Only positions, saying "Look. Such and such used the Textus Receptus here". Otherwise, they don't care for it.

This term is very overused and misused in our society, but I think it's more or less appropriate here; you're a bigot. You are making strong claims from ignorance about people whom you clearly do not like, seemingly out of ignorance.

>That is, they only ever remember Preachers and see the Pulpit as the center of a saintly life. Those who held up Sola Scripture are held up as giants

Your incoherent rant aside, this is simply not true because unfortunately, for most Baptists and indeed most Christians, church history only goes back as far as Billy Graham.

>>847593

>You are the anomaly. Not them

Lol

>>847597

This is what you yourself started with doing, by trying to bundle Anglicans and Methodists as typical Protestants, when a great majority of them don't subscribe to Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura. That's not a typical Protestant. Even when I quote the very founders or earliest examples (be it Wesley or Richard Hooker), you called it a "myth". Now I'm going to talk about Baptists in return. Why would you even call yourself a Baptist and start saying you hold up Tradition? At best, you are an anomaly, as I said. This isn't a common thing anyone hears from Baptists. Your very name signals that you already eschewed one big tradition anyways: Infant Baptism.

>>847598

Cool. Whatever. If talk about church theology in a church theology is autism, so be it.

>>847599

>Yeah, but Orthodoxy doesn't allow women to be priests and every major Methodist denomination does. Methodism is so woke that it's beyond saving.

Methodism has done this since the founding. Including all of the other branches, who are conservative. Nazarenes, Salvation Army, etc..

I think the problem is the orthodox don't believe in the primacy of Scripture and worship tigger saints like moses the black. The Bible speaks well of the children of Light, not so of the children of darkness. Or as them zoomers use as cryptogration, dankness. Once you open your heart to the Light you finally understand Jesus Christ and His will for the church on earth. Meanwhile the jews have their heretical sects like orthofaggotry and cathogay to spread deceit and lies to mislead Jesus' flock. Just stay true to the KJV Bible and follow Scripture when in doubt.

>>847601

>I've seen them do it many times

>>847601

>I should hope not, Eastern Orthodoxy is grossly unbiblical

So by this I would have to gather that the theoretical Baptists quoting church fathers to solidify their arguments aren't biblical either? You're basically saying they're doing the same thing as Orthodox, but only calling one "unbiblical".

You can't have it both ways.

>>847608

You're ignorant but opinionated

>>847610

I don't know what hole you crawled out of, but you are Exhibit A of what no one should be here. I don't care what denomination it is. This is just vile.

>>847612

Be a little more detailed. Tell me what is ignorant. All I intended to do is come here and mention the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Or the Anglican saying it was based on. Then you jumped in and quoted a blog disputing it. Despite the Quadrilateral being based on Wesley's own teachings. Not to mention that this teaching is posted on the UMC website itself. You're just taking one blogger's word over everything else, and then telling Methodists they're the ignorant ones.

On top of that, you get mad when someone talks about Baptists. You can't even take the slightest bit of what you were doing yourself. And I'm not even saying anything controversial about Baptists. You can't even be bothered to celebrate something as universal in the early church as All Saint's Day, or teach Infant Baptism. And a great deal of early Baptists were Successionists to boot, who believe in an alternate history separate from any known churches. Even Spurgeon held to this. How are you going to start claiming that you care about Tradition? Baptists went out of their way to try to bypass Tradition.

>>847613

The truth shall set ye free and ye are enslaved, just like my tiggers.

>>847616

"I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken." - Matthew 12:36

I'm not white myself, but I forgive you. I've heard it all before, and I'll hear it again. You are ill. Please get right with God, the Great Physician who will truly set you free.

>>847590

>When's the last time ANYONE here has heard a Baptist strengthening their argument by using the Church Fathers? Never.

Even if I knew I could, I wouldn't. That's called having discipline and not caving into modern ways.

>>847611

You're a fool, Anon

>>847608

>when a great majority of them don't subscribe to Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura

Not only is this fantasy not even close to reality, but if it were true, they would not be Protestants in any sense. So in light of that, can you go ruin some other thread so that we might have dialog with Orthodox Christians? Assuming your derailment hasn't destroyed that possibility

>Methodism has done this since the founding.

Not helping yourself

>>847613

>This is just vile.

Indeed it is, but it's also funny, which is what he seems to be going for. Again, you seem to be actually autistic

>>847608

>Methodism has done this since the founding. Including all of the other branches, who are conservative. Nazarenes, Salvation Army, etc..

That's even worse.

>>847497

I think in terms of soteriology you're correct, Orthodox and Methodists are quite similar, but when it comes to tradition is where things get a bit shaky. Orthodox Christians put a giant emphasis on the liturgy, on icons, on sacraments, on Mary, as well as on the intercession of the saints and prayers for the dead, which is something Methodists typically reject. A lot of these stem from the liturgy handed down to us by the apostles, the highest form of worship, but in Methodist churches the liturgy is either watered down (as is typical among most Protestants) or is non-existent at all, Methodist churches even substitute wine for grape juice due to their misguided teetotalism. Methodism isn't just like western rite Orthodoxy, there's still some fundamental differences between us that play into the fundamental differences between Protestants and Orthodox or Protestants and Catholics.

>>847696

*substitute grape juice for wine

Wrote it backwards.