118295 No.846972
I had a non-Christian friend who was in a state of grief recently and I wanted to recommend her the rosary. But then I realized that the Rosary mediations wouldn't make sense to a non-Christian. I also realized many of the mysteries wouldn't make sense to a protestant - such as the assumption and coronation of Mary or the institution of the eucharist. Ironically this also helped me understand the reasons for the Rosary and appreciate it more as something that reinforces the Catholic faith.
*The rosary wards against the heresy and deceptions of the last days*
To me, it seems pretty clear that we are in the last days, if nothing else the prophecy of Daniel that says in the last days knowledge will increase and men will pass over (as in fly) bible uses word > יְשֹׁטְט֥וּ (google translate says fly. )
Scripture teaches that in the last days there were will many deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. There will be a great deal of heresy and false teachings. There will also be many men who have the appearance of godliness by deny it's power.
The real risk in these dark time is heresy. There is a risk that even Catholics may end up believing the wrong things about God, and even believing in and praying to the wrong God. The apostle Paul tells us that in the last days theses false doctrines will deceive even the elect.
Today television and Hollywood promote the idea of a generic God and society promotes the idea of a eastern like indifferent God who sits in the background and isn't involved in people's lives. Moreover, Catholics are constantly being fed with materials from protestants who are filled with many heresies and false doctrines about God. So much so that we see even high ranking members of the clergy proclaim a false God, for example when Fr. Arturo Sosa claimed the devil does not exist, it becomes clear that he worships a very different God from Jesus Christ who cast out devils and crushed the head of the great serpent on the cross through his death and resurrection.
The Rosary directs our prayers to focus on Jesus Christ, the god (father son and holy spirit) of scripture and the one true God. Thus rosary meditations protect us from that by directing our meditations towards the God of the trinity and the God described in the catechism in the person of Jesus Christ.
*The emptiness of undirected prayer*
Protestants teach that we should just talk to God, but this leads to many foolish things like people sitting in their room attempting to have psychic or even verbal conversations with God the way they would with a friend. They receive little response and many imagine a word in their head as a response from God. Protestant group prayers often become a means to talk to one another, show how faithful one is, or even attack other members, and often they delve into the foolishness and vanity. Even when a protestant seeks sincerely to pray in private many imagine some vague entity that is little different from 'the universe' or 'the secret' described in new age thought. And even when imagining Jesus they merely offer some telepathically honed requests and leave it at that. Their prayer life is often confused and bears little fruit It might be tempting to pray in the orthodox way but I think there is a real risk there of vain repetition. The rosary directs our prayers to God the father son and holy spirit.
*How to pray the rosary*
When I first started praying the Rosary I found it to be empty repetitions because I wasn't meditating on the mysteries, and so it became empty and boring. The mediations make the rosary the rosary.
Instructions on how to pray the rosary with the mediations can be found here
https://www.rosarycenter.org/homepage-2/rosary/how-to-pray-the-rosary/
we can also find greater mediations here
https://traditionalcatholicprayers.com/2019/11/14/fulton-sheens-meditations-on-the-15-mysteries-of-the-rosary/
start with our the apostles creed, the beads that are close together are hail marys and the ones further part dividing the beads into groups get our fathers and glory be. The groups of 10 hail marys are our time to meditate on the mysteries - whether it be the birth of Christ, his time in the garden, his transfiguration, or mary's coronation in heaven as alluded to in Revelation 11
____________________________
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118295 No.846973
>>846972
*Beware of feelings*
Protestant denominations emphasize feeling, they claim God is something they can feel. The Mormons take this to the extreme and claim to know the book of mormon is true because of their feelings. This is a very real outcome of the reformation. Luther claimed faith alone and actually excluded the books from the bible that talked about knowing God through reason and our rational faculties.
From the Catechism:
> Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.
> Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".1
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c1.htm see paragraphs 35 and 36
We can know the bible is true through reason.
Although many have, I can say I have never once felt anything special or felt any closer to God as a result of receiving the eucharist. Nevertheless the act of receiving the eucharist is an act of coming close to God intendent of how it makes us feel.
The Rosary is similar, however it makes us feel, even if it feels like a chore, or we feel like we're getting nothing out of it, the mere act of saying the prayer while mediating on Christ, his deeds and his personage brings us closer to the true God. And even if we don't ask for anything in that mediation, the mere act of spending time meditating on God will cause the spirit to make everything work for the good of those faithful to him.
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7c098c No.846977
>prays to a saint which is made up tradition never found in any of the 23,000 verses of the Bible
>protects from heresy
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118295 No.846980
>>846977
>made up tradition never found in any of the 23,000 verses of the Bible
I think many would level that very claim against sola scriptura, the authority of the church to bind and loose on earth is clear scripture. Also if you read about the rosary meditations I linked in OP it should be clear that the rosary is not "praying to a saint"
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f0ba35 No.846981
>>846980
Is mary a saint and is the prayer addressed to her?
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118295 No.846982
>>846977
I want to level another criticism against sola scriptura here that I pointed out in OP, every single version of every protestant bible translates
יְשֹׁטְט֥וּ
In Daniels prophecy concerning the last days as "run to and fro" or even worse, follows in the NIV version as run to knowledge.
However if you put the word into google translate it says fly - ie in the last days many shall fly (as in airplanes)
So with sola scriptura traditions, even the KJV onliests lose the prophecy of Daniel.
Further by following Luther and getting rid of the book of Macabees the protestants can't see how later events fulfils Daniel's prophecy. So it's amazing how much of even God's plain word is lost to the sola scriptura protestant. A good reason to at least consider returning to the vine from which you came
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118295 No.846983
>>846981
hail mary, full of grace the lord is with you, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb
- is lifted directly from scripture the words the angel said to mary
holy mary mother of god pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death is a request to Mary that she pray to God for sinners
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f0ba35 No.846984
>>846983
So yes, it's a prayer to a saint
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118295 No.846986
>>846984
if quoting directly the words said by an angel that's in bible is prayer to a saint and if asking someone to pray for you is a prayer to a saint. . . .
honestly, there's this strange dogmatism and rigidity to protestant criticism of Catholicism that raises serious questions particularly when these same denominations break scripture constantly by allowing female pastors, welcoming gays, allowing divorces and second marriages even among preachers . . .
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f0ba35 No.846987
>>846986
Why is it difficult for you to say yes? You've already said as much in more words
In the text the "hail mary" line isn't a prayer, it's a greeting. When one prays the rosary they use verbatim passages of scripture as a prayer to Mary, a saint
>when these same denominations break scripture constantly by allowing female pastors, welcoming gays, allowing divorces and second marriages even among preachers . . .
K
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118295 No.846988
>>846987
>In the text the "hail mary" line isn't a prayer, it's a greeting. When one prays the rosary they use verbatim passages of scripture as a prayer to Mary, a saint
I think this strawman misrepresentation of Catholicism is what protestants need to justify an obviously unjustifiable position in the face of church history.
Luther said hail Marys regularly and was devoted to Mary. And if he could see what modern Protestantism has become he would repent.
You are a branch that became separated from the vine and that has withered. You are so divorced from the over a millennia of church history you decided to make your own Christian faith in your own image. And one needs only take a cursory glance to see it
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118295 No.846989
>>846988
>>846987
and no despite what you pretend not all the wordly branches of Protestantism are from the Anglican congregations
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118295 No.846991
From Martin luther's sermon on saying hail mary
>Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).
He also said this in his sermon
>She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."[ Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], volume 24, 107]
>It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
>God says…"Mary’s Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).
>It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11, pp. 319–320; v. 6. p. 510.)
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118295 No.846992
>>846991
one more from Martin luther on saying hail mary
>Our prayer should include the Mother of God…What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor…We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her…He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 152
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38038b No.846999
>>846973
>beware of feelings, trust reason
You Roman Catholics really are oblivious that you play romance with God. Faith is not an inner sensation - much less what you call Reason, for is merely a romanticism of the feeling of sureness.
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118295 No.847000
>>846999
The protestant believes that because their beliefs are based on a misunderstanding of faith. Yet you don't need faith to believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah. There is prophecy after prophecy of highly detailed impossible to fake prophecies that make it impossible for any sane person to deny that he is the one that God sent.
I mean they predicted that the Jewish messiah would be born during the second temple, reject by the Jews and accepted and worshiped by the gentiles and kings, that's something you can't fake, you can't fake all the Jews rejecting him and the gentiles accepting and hoping on him
The heavens declare the glory of god. Looking at things like the intricate construction of life and the universe and even our solar system
https://kgov.com/fine-tuning-of-the-universe
faith means trusting in God and Jesus Christ not believing in God - which is rational
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a33fc7 No.847002
>>846972
>The apostle Paul tells us that in the last days theses false doctrines will deceive even the elect.
I've got to stop you right there.
The verse you're referring to is Matthew 24:24, and it doesn't say that at all.
>For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
The person speaking here is the Lord Jesus, and the quotation clearly says that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE they shall deceive the very elect. The Bible does not actually say they will be deceived, it says the opposite. It's quite satanic of you to try to flip the verse to say the opposite and attribute it to Paul, possibly to make it harder to find.
You realize the devil in the Bible even is always spreading subtle alterations of true Scripture. Well that's exactly what you have just done here in this thread.
Matthew 6:5-6
>And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
>But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
>But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
>Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Amen.
And if I wanted to know how to pray, I would inquire from the Lord Jesus Christ in Scripture. I would not be following the advice of some random person that wants to do vain repetitions. That is bad advice and it goes against Scripture.
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118295 No.847003
>>847002
see here's another problem with solar scriptura you guys altered scripture to fit with your preconcieved notions
youngs literal translation says
or there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.
https://biblehub.com/ylt/matthew/24.htm
the jewish word used is
δυνατὸν (dynaton) just means
possible
the word before that εἰ (ei) is just the conjunction if
>And if I wanted to know how to pray, I would inquire from the Lord Jesus Christ in Scripture.
as explained to you by your local pastor, televangelist and pop=christainity books in your christian bookstores
you're not being honest if you claim that you came up with doctrines like the trinity all by yourself from reading scripture alone
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118295 No.847004
>>847003
>>847002
your sentence is also illogical and internallly inconsistent
According to you Jesus said that false messiahs will arrive to decieve even the elect but it's not possible to dcieve the elect - you make Jesus out to be speaking nonsense by adding extra words that you know aren't even in the original scrolls
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5c484c No.847005
>>846972
>Protestants teach that we should just talk to God, but this leads to many foolish things like people sitting in their room attempting to have psychic or even verbal conversations with God the way they would with a friend.
>They receive little response and many imagine a word in their head as a response from God. Protestant group prayers often become a means to talk to one another, show how faithful one is, or even attack other members, and often they delve into the foolishness and vanity.
Oh, how I can attest to this… Prior to my conversion to Catholicism, I went to a Protestant (SBC) young adult group led by a husband and wife. As with most Protestant marriages, the wife was in charge and the man followed along. One time, the wife asked us to sit alone in a room for two hours, preferably in front of a candle, and wait to hear from God - He would tell us a word and that would be our word for the year ("Courage", "Reflection", etc.). Naturally, I tried and didn't hear anything, but after some pressure from the wife, made up a random word. Months later, I told everyone of my intention to convert to Catholicism, and naturally the wife turned on me, saying Catholicism is of the devil, and her husband said that everything his wife says is God's word. Suffice to say, I never saw those pagans again.
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9306c2 No.847026
>>846972
Don't bait the Protestants, they're a bit of a lost cause. They deny that the Bible says Christ established ONE Church, Deny that church, and then say Sola Scriptura but deny every part of the Bible that says that's wrong. No point in trying to reason with them because they work from Cognitive Bias; there is no reason to their thinking.
Just pray for them as part of your intentions when you say the Rosary. Too many of them will be lost souls.
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56c41a No.847029
>>847026
I'm a Lutheran and I pray rosary - and no joke, it actually works. One rosary a day keeps the lust away.
Could any of you Caths recommend me any books that will enlighten me about Catholicism, maybe some Catholic apologetics? I am interested in doing my research and maybe becoming Catholic. I've read Home to Rome, and now I would especially like something that discusses sola scriptura and holy tradition.
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85724b No.847034
>>847029
This site got plenty of apologetic topics, use the search form: https://www.catholic.com/search?q=sola%20scriptura
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118295 No.847039
>>847026
Honestly I think much of it is our fault. They get bad teachings all their lives from everywhere and many Catholics are not in a place to correct any of it
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9306c2 No.847040
>>847029
Yes! I heard this! That Trad Lutherans still pray a rosary, with the last two Glorious mysteries of the Assumption of the Blessed virgin and the Crowning of the Blessed virgin replaced by two other things.
Books? I got this one from Tan Books on recommendation from some anon.
It bears no imprimatur, but then it wasn't to be a teaching book but rather a rebuttal. I just started reading it so I can't say if it's good or bad, but it seems to address many of the issues that Catholics are told about by others about the Catholic church e.g. that we worship images.
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56c41a No.847056
>>847040
Oh I have more of a dogmatic problem with those two mysteries, still pray them though. No replacements, even when it comes to Hail Mary's and Salve Regina. I realized some time ago that asking saints for intercession is a valid thing to do (if you can ask your friend to pray for you, then you can ask St.Augustine to do so too; do you have a rule on which saints to pray to depending on the subject?), that's why I have no trouble saying Hail Mary.
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118295 No.847066
>>847056
it's not a rule, but there are supposed to be patron saints for specific causes, eg. lots of lawyers make petitions to Saint Thomas Moore because he was a lawyer
I never got into saints personally though and most Catholics only have a few major saints they send petitions to
this directory has a list of patron saints if you're interested in a particular topic
https://www.catholic.org/saints/patron.php
after that we normally find a novena to say to that saint that's on topic and it's said for 9 days straight. Although this is a tradition I've never really gotten much into myself
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6f197a No.847192
The Rosary saved me from gnosticism
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a33fc7 No.847236
>>847003
The translation isn't the problem here; this is not a translation issue, the issue is that you think the Elect can be deceived. When the text nowhere says that. So we see as well when reading that the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24, does not say that the elect SHALL BE deceived. That's what you claimed in your OP post.
You wrote, remember: "theses false doctrines will deceive even the elect."
No, no Scripture passage says this! You were teaching false doctrine and claiming it is in Scripture, when saying the apostle Paul tells us that. In fact Matthew 24:24 says the opposite. The word of God adds the extra phrase there to signify that it is not possible. If the phrase were not there, it would be the opposite.
It does not say "they shall deceive even the elect" but it says "if it were possible, they shall deceive even the elect."
You cannot remove this part of the verse to teach the opposite. You cannot remove the first phrase. In fact to go even further as the book of Revelation says, anyone who is deceived and receives the mark of that same beast is going to be suffering the torment of the lake of fire. That can't be referring to the Elect. You imply in your opening post that it might be. No, only the nonbelievers will be deceived. There are even scriptures in reference to this fact.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
>Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
>10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
>11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
>12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Titus 3:3-6
>3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
>4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
>5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
>6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
>7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
2 Peter 2:9
>The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Praise the Lord. Amen.
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a33fc7 No.847239
>>847003
I should also add, you wrote, in this post >>846972
the following misstatement:
>The apostle Paul tells us that in the last days theses false doctrines will deceive even the elect.
No, no he does not. The Lord Jesus tells us that "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." That's in Matthew 24:24. The Bible clearly says if it were possible there, you cannot remove those words and quote just the second part only, that reverses the meaning.
You claimed the Bible says the opposite of what it says. And what does scripture actually teach?
2 Peter 2:9
>The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Matthew 6:13
>And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
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a33fc7 No.847240
>>847003
>>847004
>you're not being honest if you claim that you came up with doctrines like the trinity all by yourself from reading scripture alone
See John 15:26, Colossians 2:2, 1 John 5:7 and others. Matthew 28:19. Please, give me a break with this denial nonsense. Stop trying to tell us the Bible says the opposite of what our Lord says, and stop openly denying the clear truth of God's word.
>According to you Jesus said that false messiahs will arrive to decieve even the elect but it's not possible to dcieve the elect
They will attempt their best to deceive, similar to how you are doing here, but it will not be possible hence why Jesus Christ added "if it were possible" to the beginning of the statement.
>you make Jesus out to be speaking nonsense by adding extra words that you know aren't even in the original scrolls
You just pointed out the words themselves. >>847003
They are there, yet you did not quote them in your OP. Why not?
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f207d5 No.847241
>>847239
Not who you're arguing with and I get what you're saying but to be fair the Bible is translated from Greek not English. "If it were possible" in English usually means it won't happen by convention but in Greek without that convention it would just mean when it's possible to deceive the elect they will be deceived. I can't read Greek but if it's important enough to you guys I can check what the Latin Vulgate says to settle the matter. It may very well agree with you.
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f207d5 No.847242
>>847239
>>847240
Uhhhh why the fukk are you samefagging using a Baptist and a Catholic flag? Are you attempting some kind of interdenominational peer pressure tactics?
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a33fc7 No.847243
>>847242
Why are you making up false accusations? Show me one place where I posted with a Catholic flag.
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a33fc7 No.847244
>>847243
>>847242
I guess this is how they do it when they're caught twisting Scripture, quickly shift the subject to some random false accusation. For shame, OP.
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f207d5 No.847245
>>847244
>>847243
Dude? This screencap has your ID and the flag is Catholic.
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a33fc7 No.847246
>>846972
>The apostle Paul tells us that in the last days theses false doctrines will deceive even the elect.
The Bible nowhere says this.
Actually in Matthew 24:24, what Jesus said was "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
Notice those first words. Obviously we know that the elect are not going to receive the mark of the beast and that, as the Bible states, the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished. That's from 2 Peter 2:9. Obviously nothing the OP said about what literal Scripture says is true, he also advises people to commit vain repetitions against what Our Lord actually said in Matthew chapter 6.
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9306c2 No.847247
>>847245
>>847242
I noticed that flags don't mean much so I stopped using one.
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7032ba No.847248
>>847245
Not on my side
Looks like a bug
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f207d5 No.847251
>>847247
Probably a good idea.
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f207d5 No.847253
I did look up what the Vulgate says btw and it says "Whenever they can they will deceive the elect." I want to clarify the elect still go to heaven no matter what according to Catholic teaching but the point of this scripture is that kikes will try to trick good people not that good people are immune to trickery. Believing such nonsense is the mortal sin of pride.
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a33fc7 No.847276
>>847253
2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
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f207d5 No.847277
>>847276
You can be deceived without being tempted.
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118295 No.847282
>>847253
We teach a wholly different notion of elect from Calvinism
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-gods-election-of-the-faithful-unconditional
Catholicism is distinguishable from Calvinism because salvation and reaity is not God just programming things and letting it run, it is, as scripture shows an interaction with God and man. God offers salvation to all men because scripture says Jesus died for the sins of ALL men and God desires that ALL men be saved. We thus become elect by participating with Christ in his plan for salvation and we loses our election when we stop participating. Calvinism emphasizes some parts of the bible at the expense of others and is a part of the protestant error that says that man reading scripture independent of the guidance of the over a millennium of tradition can come out of it without Satan pushing him into heresy. It is the sin of pride
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118295 No.847283
>>847282
But the important thing is God is constantly interacting with his creation, he creates each person one by one and humans participate in that act of creation through the act of reproduction. He also participates through the holy spirit in the church and through the sacrifice of the eucharist. Even prophecies as the bible show can change depending on human action - god sometimes delayed a punishment or took a different course like when he did when Moses begged him to spare the sinful Jews or when Abraham asked him to spare lot. It was like the last apparition of Mary at Akita said - if man doesn't change his sinful ways God will send fire from the sky and end our age - actually that was the second last, I think the last one was something alone the lines of too late all you can do is mitigate from back in 2019. But the important thing is here God has a plan but he is also making room in his plans for us and our actions.
is a God you can ask things of, interact with, that's what makes our relationship with him special
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f207d5 No.847284
>>847282
Stop pretending to be Catholic. The universe is deterministic and a Jesuit priest older than the United States predicted the rise of your non-deterministic heresy. You have no will separate from God. He planned EVERYTHING from the start.
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4b65b2 No.847511
>>847284
ugh you crazy people ruined the last board hopefully you don't ruin this one as well. In the Catechism God's plan can change depending on man, it's an interaction between man and God not a deterministic universe. The fact that god is all knowing and can predict all things doesn't mean he predetermined all things you protestant
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e54782 No.847515
>>847511
The church doctors including St. Augustine and St. Thomas are in agreement that the universe is deterministic. You're clearly interpreting the catechism wrong if you think it believes the hippy new age indeterministic universe crap. If you disagree with Catholicism and the doctors who created and shaped it, stop pretending to be Catholic and just leave us real Catholics in peace free from the division you heretics cause. You are not entitled to call yourself Catholic. You have to have Catholic beliefs to be Catholic. God is authoritative over all things, including you.
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