1076ab No.837544[Last 50 Posts]
Is Jesus Wisdom or is the Holy Spirit? Because I've seen both refereed to as Wisdom yet how can that be without being modalism?
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0bffc4 No.837548
>Is Jesus Wisdom or is the Holy Spirit?
yes
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15d8ac No.837552
Christ is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, albeit I've seen Roman Catholics say that 'the Holy Spirit is the love of the Father and the Son "personified"' with quotations as if he weren't. The Holy Spirit is the Paraclete who keeps his personhood hidden, nevertheless he is a person.
>Now, here is the kicker
There was a 20th century sophianic heresy. Do not be confused by it, because it is a mess. Fathers Sergius Bulgakov and Pavel Florenski never talked about a fourth hypostasis/person, as they were wrongfully condemned, but as the sophia-ousia-glory. The ousia-sophia, which is what they actually preached, is also wrong, for it goes against the spirit of Saint Paul that wisdom apart from Christ is foolishness.
The person of Christ is the Wisdom of God, just like when he is called the Word of God, it does not imply modalism. Perhaps you might be misled by iconography, but angel merely means messenger and the Wisdom of God isn't the only messenger-like depiction of Christ - for example, the Angel of the Lord of the OT.
Father Bulgakov reinterpreted the monarchy of the Father and it's a western idea. It's platonism.
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1076ab No.837553
>>837552
You didn't really answer my question. St. Irenaeus says the Holy Spirit is Wisdom yet others say the Logos (the Son) is Wisdom. Well which is it???
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d98804 No.837555
>>837552
Jesus isn't Wisdom. The OT calls Wisdom a woman. If you go down that road you end up with weirdness like SA2 where the Christ figure is "Maria" instead of her son. But who knows. Maybe the masons who made Sonic were right and I'm wrong but I doubt it.
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85d0ae No.837558
>>837544
I have a very old bible that speaks of wisdom being a female. The books name is “wisdom of Solomon”. Other than speaking of wisdom as a female, everything else in the book is completely in line with the Bible. It’s one of the reasons I ended up believing that the Holy Spirit is Mother (Not mary).
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85d0ae No.837561
>>837558
It’s in the apocrypha section of the book. I forgot to say that.
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ccc716 No.837567
>>837553
Oh, are you talking about Against Heresies IV, 20? Look at how it starts
>That one God formed all things in the world, by means of the Word and the Holy Spirit: and that although He is to us in this life invisible and incomprehensible, nevertheless He is not unknown; inasmuch as His works do declare Him, and His Word has shown that in many modes He may be seen and known.
He is talking about unity in God against Arians, so you're confusing BY with IN. He uses
>For with him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, he made all things, to whom also he speaks, saying, "Let us make man after our image and likeness;"
So Wisdom is BY Christ and IN the Spirit, or Christ imbued (IN) the Spirit. God's revelation unto man is by Christ and in the Spirit, this is a common formula.
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ccc716 No.837570
>>837555
Wisdom is Sophia in the Greek and is a feminine word, English does not have this like German or Italian does. Christ calls himself the vine using the feminine article, for example.
Gnostics use the same denotation and schizos love thinking the same name implies the same thing.
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d98804 No.837572
>>837570
I have no clue what you're implying but Jesus is not Sophia. They're two separate entities.
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85d0ae No.837573
>>837572
Anyone interested in why Jesus said the words I’m paraphrasing, and if anyone can provide us with the scripture that would be great. But he said something like, “Anyone cursing the name of the Father or the Son, it will be forgiven him, but whoever curses the Holy Spirit, that will not be forgiven”.
Very much like the saying in all men’s mouths that goes a little something like this, “Say what you want about Me or my Dad, but don’t you ever say anything about my Mom”.
We are made in Father’s image so we naturally develop His personalities. Again anyone know the scripture so we can at least accept that a scripture like that exists.
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592e76 No.837577
Wisdom is not a person, it's a concept. That's Greek paganism.
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85d0ae No.837581
You guys can have these. I enjoyed them very much. Go ahead and take it with a grain of salt since it’s apocrypha. But if you enjoyed proverbs and wish it was longer, you’ll enjoy these as well. Go ahead and let me know if you can read the words, on the original pics there very readable.
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85d0ae No.837582
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85d0ae No.837583
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6c6496 No.837587
>>837573
He never said "say what you want about my Dad". It was a statement solely about the "Son of Man" and the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit. Not "mom". The point was that they called the spirit he was healing with as "evil". They could denigrate him as a "man" (noted by his title "son of man".. which is an idiom for his mortal form), but if they stooped so low as to call the power he was healing with as evil, and said the blind were being healed by demons or something equally stupid, there was no hope left for them.
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85d0ae No.837590
>>837587
Do you know the scripture location by any chance. I want to see why I remember it the way I do.
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6c6496 No.837591
>>837590
Sorry about that. I should have done that. It's a synoptic passage, with slight variations.
Mark 3:28–29, Matthew 12:31–32, and Luke 12:10.
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85d0ae No.837592
>>837587
Hold on I found it. Let me see if I can find other accounts. Then I will compare them and tell you what I think.
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85d0ae No.837593
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513f64 No.837596
>>837544
Wisdom seems to be Jesus, since Jesus is associated with almost all the other attributes of God (Glory, Presence, Word, etc.). The Spirit is generally only associated with specifically the Spirit of the Lord. If anyone would object that Wisdom is female, I would say that (more than anything in the world) God is sexless. Christ only became specifically male in the incarnation (and probably remains so).
However, it is entirely possible that Wisdom is just an angel. If you think that the Angel of the Lord's Presence is also an angel instead of Christ, then that view is entirely reasonable.
Elsewise, it could very reasonably be just a literary device.
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85d0ae No.837597
>>837591
I like how these accounts also show what each apostle remembers and how they remember it.
I don’t mean to sound unreasonable but, in Matthew, Jesus says “on this account”. It sounds like he’s saying this not only about what the people said about him but as extra information on what they just said, since what they just said was a blasphemy.
Jesus seemed to be done with explaining houses divided on themselves and that lead him to say what we’re discussing at this point, which seems to be a blanket statement about blaspheming without knowledge that ones blaspheming. When he says “every sort of blaspheming” in Matthew, that of course includes blasphemy against The Father. And since he said “every sort” that would include blaspheming against The Son.
In mark it ends with “this is because they were saying, ‘he has an unclean spirit’. I’m quite confident Jesus merged into this topic because saying that was a blasphemy against him and he was saying that can be forgiven as well.
In luke he says, “anyone that says a word against the son of man (Jesus)”. All three accounts paint a picture of what Jesus really said. I don’t mean to be unreasonable, but. I’m still hearing, “Say what you want about me or my dad, but don’t you dare say anything about my mom”, maybe it’s because I can’t think of the Holy Spirit as anything but “Mother”. Again I’m sorry but that’s what I’m hearing. This topic was sparked by calling Jesus of the devil, but it’s teaching an entirely different lesson.
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d98804 No.837606
>>837596
Issues come up when you equate Jesus to Wisdom. Jesus is the embodiment of Logic, something distinct from Wisdom, but calling him the son of Wisdom (a female virgin character in scripture) makes a lot of sense because Wisdom is required to understand Logic. So if Mary is the embodiment of Wisdom all is well. If Jesus is Wisdom (a female in scripture) then that gives gnostics a ton of ammo to use against us which we don't need to deal with. Also the masonic Sonic games tend to depict a female Christ figure like Maria sacrificing her life to save Shadow, and Sharah sacrificing her life to save Sonic. But maybe there's more nuance and it's not as antichristian as it seems.
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929fcf No.837611
>>837606
>Issues come up when you equate Jesus to Wisdom. Jesus is the embodiment of Logic, something distinct from Wisdom, but calling him the son of Wisdom (a female virgin character in scripture) makes a lot of sense because Wisdom is required to understand Logic.
Oh, it's the EMJ fanboy again.
I've told you, man, your neo-platonic understanding would lead to God being subordinated to a pantheon of personifications of all His virtues.
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0bffc4 No.837626
>>837606
>Logos is logic
not this s— again
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ccc716 No.837652
>>837572
Do you say Logos and Christ and different entities? Of course not.
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592e76 No.837654
>>837652
We don't have reason to call Jesus sophia like we do for logos
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ccc716 No.837655
>>837606
For the nth time, the Word is not logic. Reason is also not logic. Also:
>I base my faith not on the Prophets but how gnostics supposedly interpret "masonic Sonic games"
You actually need help, get off the internet for a while.
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ccc716 No.837656
>>837654
Proverbs 9:1-6 is about last supper.
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592e76 No.837657
>>837656
It's typologically related to the last supper and is using personification, common to wisdom literature. This is not a proof that wisdom is an entity.
If it isn't personification, do you intend to argue that Jesus is at once male and female?
John 1 explicitly names Jesus as logos in the genre of historical prose, no personification.
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ccc716 No.837660
>>837657
>Do you intend to argue that Jesus is at once male and female?
No, no orthodox writer does. Gnostics do and your thinking is the eternal problem of stupid people equating a label used by different systems to mean the same thing. Wisdom is not a different person in orthodoxy, I have already said this. Christ is a person that when imbued with the Paraclete is the revelation of God unto man, the Wisdom of the Father. It's just that in the Greek Wisdom is feminine-gendered just like, for example, vine - something he calls himself.
Are we to say the person of Christ is not the Vine, lest there would be two people? No. Are we to say the person of Christ is not Wisdom, lest there would be two people? No. Are we to say the person of Christ is not Logos, lest there would be two people? No.
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4cdd5d No.837661
>>837652
>>837655
Ffs Sophia is NOT Jesus. Logos is Jesus. And the whole point of that post was I do NOT trust the masonic narratives, but I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt and consider the slight possibility the bs in those games is not intentionally malicious.
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ccc716 No.837663
>>837661
No, the Wisdom and Word of God is Christ because the message he conveyed from the Father is himself. He did not teach something outside himself, but he himself is the teaching.
>who has seen me, has seen the Father
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592e76 No.837664
>>837660
It is my argument that logos is a person and that person is Christ. Wisdom is not a person (or entity) but could be metaphorically used to refer to Christ or the whole Trinity in the same way that Christ is "the way" or "the true vine" or "the door".
You have seemingly affirmed that wisdom is an entity/person identical with Jesus, which is where I find disagreement. It is wrong to say that "wisdom" in Proverbs 9 is interchangeable with "Jesus".
I take no issue with the phrase "Jesus is wisdom" properly defined. We need to be especially careful to not conflate sophiaand Jesus because sophiais an ancient Greek idol.
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592e76 No.837665
>>837663
>No, the Wisdom and Word of God is Christ
You're inserting a phrase alien to the text
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ccc716 No.837666
>>837664
What do you think of the formulation:
>It is my argument that wisdom is a person and that person is Christ.
>>837665
It's all throughout the Bible that the Father created the world through the Son who is wisdom.
Like Proverbs 3:11-20 and John 1:3. There are many more like Psalm 104:24.
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8c2deb No.837667
>>837663
Wisdom is a female and it's not just the Greek. The OT calls her a woman too. Sophia cannot be Jesus.
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8c2deb No.837668
>>837666
Wisdom is a creation herself and God created the rest of the world through her. Jesus is the son of Wisdom and the Father. He is not Wisdom.
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eef9d6 No.837670
>>837668
>Jesus is the son of Wisdom and the Father
Wut!
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592e76 No.837671
>>837666
>It is my argument that wisdom is a person and that person is Christ
Damnable heresy
>>837666
>the Son is wisdom.
>Like Proverbs 3:11-20
More obvious personification. Not the person Jesus.
>and John 1:3
No reference to wisdom
>>837668
Empty vaguely platonist words
Why is it that the evangelical Protestant is objecting to literalism and the EO and RC are insisting on it? This entire issue is solved in the word "personification".
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ccc716 No.837672
>>837667
The OT is in Greek and that Wisdom is Christ is the understanding of Christians ever since St. Irenaeus. The Wisdom of God is not wordly, like you suggested, but teaches about himself as himself. The Son is God and the Way to God. Nothing created makes us know of God.
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ccc716 No.837674
>>837671
A "most obvious personification" might as well be used for the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is what most """Christians""" do anyways.
The fullness of the Wisdom of God is the person of Christ in the Paraclete, he did not teach anything but himself.
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8833e8 No.837675
If the Son can be called wisdom, it is not because that has some special meaning but because He is the embodiment of all the Father’s traits, whose perfect image He is, and as such could properly be called the wisdom of God.
It seems to make less sense to call the Holy Spirit wisdom, since He does not proceed only from the Father but also from the Son, embodying the love of the Father and the Son, and so is the love of God.
In no sense is Mary “wisdom”. This can be dismissed out of hand as popish idolatry.
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592e76 No.837676
>>837674
I base my interpretation on the literary genre any passage is written in. What non arbitrary way do you make this distinction?
Why isn't Jesus literally a door?
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0a11ab No.837677
>>837675
>popish idolatry.
Project much? The Israelites call Wisdom a female meaning they did not want you worshipping her as God. All three persons of the Trinity are male and that's the end of it. Anything else is heresy.
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ccc716 No.837680
>>837676
One cannot cognize cognition itself. Just like one cannot see oneself seeing something.
>why isn't Y literally an X?
I take this question to be a fundamental misunderstanding on the nature of language.
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592e76 No.837684
>>837680
I mean this in a non rude way (unlike you, apparently), but do you understand what personification is in literature?
The references to wisdom we have seen in the old testament are personifications. I'm asking why you disagree, if you do.
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8833e8 No.837685
>>837677
>Project much?
No.
>The Israelites call Wisdom a female
There is no such being called “Wisdom”. You are wrong on both accounts. The strange god you’re talking about does not exist, and Mary is not her.
>All three persons of the Trinity are male
God is genderless, He is infinite and incorporeal. Anything else is actually heresy.
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592e76 No.837688
>>837685
>God is genderless, He is infinite and incorporeal. Anything else is actually heresy.
The father and the son are male. The spirit is a matter of debate.
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8833e8 No.837690
>>837688
Paganism. God has no gender, He is an infinite spirit. God does not have a penis. He is referred to by male pronouns because man is made in His image.
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2107ca No.837692
Wisdom
All Three!!!! One day this will be a painting or poem …but right now a nap is necessary.
Wisdom
“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:”
1 Corinthians 2:7 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/1co.2.7.kjv
“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
Ephesians 1:17 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/eph.1.17.kjv
“But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/1co.1.24.kjv
“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”
1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/1co.12.3.kjv
“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;”
Ephesians 3:5 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/eph.3.5.kjv
————-
Just for fun:
“The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”
Matthew 12:42 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/mat.12.42.kjv
————-
Worth looking into:
The God head had a conversation shortly after Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil -sans the wisdom of the Alpha and Omegas. I believe Their concern was how humans would reconcile sin without the full understanding of Love (True Wisdom if God). Given that perfect wisdom could not be obtained/comprehended until heaven, if free will was to remain (true love). Very cool the solution, What was it?
The answer was given to me in a vision. So cool!!!!
—————-
“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:”
1 Corinthians 2:7 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/1co.2.7.kjv
“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
Ephesians 1:17 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/eph.1.17.kjv
“But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/1co.1.24.kjv
“Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.”
1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/1co.12.3.kjv
“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;”
Ephesians 3:5 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/eph.3.5.kjv
Just for fun:
“The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”
Matthew 12:42 KJV
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/mat.12.42.kjv
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2107ca No.837693
Sorry for the redundancy. Happens to the best of us!
Nappy time!
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25524f No.837702
>>837690
Jesus is God and unironically had a penis.
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ccc716 No.837704
>>837684
I believe so. I merely reject that it is the case that Wisdom is not a person, however. People can understand your position and still reject it on the basis of faith.
My view is that the Wisdom of God is the very person of Christ imbued with the Comforter, this being the revelation of the Father unto men. The revelation of the Father is the person of the Son, that's what I believe and why I take the Wisdom debate seriously.
I do not believe Christ came to teach anything beyond his very person. The teachers of man-made religions always make themselves distinct from their teachings. Europeans have made a grave mistake by calling Muslims Mohammedans or Chinese scholars by Confucianism for man-made religions do not follow the teacher but follow the teaching of the teacher. Christianity alone has the person of the teacher and the teaching as the same, in other words, Christ is the Wisdom of God.
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ccc716 No.837705
>>837690
>God has no gender
Paganism
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592e76 No.837707
>>837704
So full circle, for what reason do you conclude wisdom is a person? A literal reading of Proverbs 3 and 9?
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ccc716 No.837710
>>837707
Are you talking about Scripture specifically? I would ask of you to look for yourself on the NT, though I recommend interlocking Matthew 12:42, 1 Corinthians 1:30 (specially) and 1 Corinthians 3:18-20. 1 Corinthians is about the difference of man-made wisdom and Christ as Divine Wisdom.
Or are you asking about my fundamental beliefs? I take wisdom as Christ by the Spirit, that I can say. I also take the trinity as three in one and one in three. For what reason is a very tricky question, it might not even be valid.
What I can say is that I have made a promise to see myself, the world, others, and God in a particular manner - but for what reason, I am not sure. If I did not get the feeling this is a philosophical question, I would say for my salvation. Though if it were up to me, a pencil would fall to the ground when one drops it not because of gravity, but because he dropped it.
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592e76 No.837712
>>837710
"For what reason" only means "why", as in "why do you think that?"
Those passages do not identify wisdom as a person
> I take wisdom as Christ by the Spirit, that I can say.
The spirit told you byspeical revelation that wisdom is a person, and that person is christ? Am I understanding you correctly?
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ccc716 No.837713
>>837712
>why do you think that?
I don't take that as a valid question. Try to see: ask yourself what would you take as an answer.
>The spirit told you byspeical revelation that wisdom is a person, and that person is christ? Am I understanding you correctly?
No, you're misunderstanding me.
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592e76 No.837715
>>837713
It's not a valid question to ask why you believe something in theology?
I would take "Proverbs 3 is referring to a literal person because (x, y, z)" or "platonism's theory of forms is trustworthy and requries a view of an actual person who is wisdom" or "it is a philosophical necessity because (x, y, z)"
>No, you're misunderstanding me.
Should I even ask what you really meant?
You accused me of having a "fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of language" and implicitly called me stupid >>837660
How could it be stupid to disagree with you on something you can't even put into words?
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ccc716 No.837716
>>837715
>It's not a valid question to ask why you believe something in theology?
There are many senseless questions, not only in theology. It makes sense if you ask as a religious question, not as a philosophical question.
>How could it be stupid to disagree with you on something you can't even put into words?
Verbosity does not imply likelyhood of truth or intelligence. My point is that it is not possible to put into words how one sees the world. It would be like mapping how a map relates to a town.
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f5495f No.837718
Wisdom is a seraphim and should not be worshiped.
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d98804 No.837720
>>837718
>Wisdom is a seraphim
Woah wait what? Explain.
>and should not be worshiped.
This is true.
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f5495f No.837721
>>837720
The seraphim are the “hands” of God to say, they are the ones the would dispense things like wisdom, love, strength, through the hierarchy of angels, all the way to man.
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087af3 No.837811
>>837721
Biblical references for that please?
‘Cause we (All of us) are to be the hands and feet of God, dude.
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f5495f No.837812
>>837811
Sorry catholic can’t help you there its part of natural theology
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4daff7 No.837818
>>837544
I would say that wisdom is a truth about the essence of God, which all the persons of the godhead share.
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