/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>821669

Yes, Acts 17:24-28, Rom 1:19-20. General revelation is a thing.

>>821672

The former verses don’t imply salvation to non-Christians and the latter is even harsher, and in fact is a condemnation.

https://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

https://catholicism.org/eens-fathers.html

Unam Sanctam is dogma, and one can only be submit to the Pope if he is baptized and acknowledges the Papacy.

>>821669

If that happens then the saved soul would enter the Church and be Christian even if by seconds before dying. To be saved and not be in the Church is like to be water and not be wet.

>>821676

Serious issue: how to submit to a Pope who basically denies such dogma?

>>821678

Hence why I took great pains to specify

<the visible Church (what is called Christianity in everyday parlance)

>>821679

Remember that here in earth we are the militant church we can see, the purgant and the triunfant church (the saved soul should enter one of these) are not visible yet they are "truer" than us.

>Serious issue: how to submit to a Pope who basically denies such dogma?

As a Catholic who has known so little about sedevacantism and stuff, the options I see are:

1) Denying Bergoglio as the Pope by saying that Benedict's resignation was not valid.

2)Saying that the Holy See is vacant and adhering to previous teachings

3)Accepting Bergoglio as the bishop of Rome who has not teached anything new so he can be ignored as long as he doesn't intructs something that is not contradictory to the Church Magisterium.

Yes, the issue is very serious, we can only hope God fixes this soon somehow.

The Holy Spirit exists before there was any Church. The graces of God can affect those who are outside the Church, but of course, the conscious rebelion against the Church is detrimental towards salvation by the effect it has. There is no salvation outside the Church because the Church and what it reveals are the only straight path to salvation. Now the consequences of deviating more or less from that path, I guess correspond to greater or lesser need for purification in Purgatory, or damnation for those who really separate themselves from God.

>>821669

“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters”

(sedevacantists are all scattered bickering divisive cults).

There is precident for the belief that those truly innocent will not be judged with the same standards as those who had the opportunity to know the gospel, and believe.

“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin” (Jn 15:22).

“If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains” (Jn 9:41).

This is however these two quotes are the single greatest btfos to sedevacantism. It may not be the most oppulent verse, but it does undeniably show that Paul consideres it within the realm of possibility that the gentiles can be saved.

"When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse OR PERHAPS EXCUSE THEM on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Rom 2:14-16)

Bonus:

“[I]s God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith” (Rom 3:29-30).

It is not a part of sacred tradition to believe that there is no hope for gentiles be saved. The holy spirit died on the cross too, through a baptism of the holy spirit (which is also a part of sacred tradition), the gentiles can become catholic and therefore saved.

This does not make me a cuck, many gentiles will still be going to hell - the difference is it is at least possible for the better of them to be saved - which is a good thing; there is at least hope. After all, think about it. If you who are evil could not wish for a gentile to go to hell and prefer him to go to heaven, how much more would God who actually loves them want them to be saved?

I don't know about the Holy Spirit but I do believe salvation exists outside of the Church. I think I saw somewhere that it can happen but it's very rare for it to happen because such a person would need to be endowed with supernatural graces or something. It's a very difficult thing to attain, salvation without the Church.

>>821694

May it be speedily in our times.

>>821714

>the Church is the straight path

Agreed.

>>821755

>The holy spirit died on the cross too

What’s the significance of this to the argument you are presenting? (Also, source? Obviously the Father did not die on the cross so how would we know that the Spirit did?)

>Arguing from scripture does not make me a cuck

Indeed it doesn’t, and what a shameful accusation that would be.

>>821756

>supernatural graces

All grace is supernatural.

>>821673

In conjunction with James mention of "Righteous Pagans", I'd say they support the idea of at least some other avenue as it were, just not salvation in the same sense (that'd be Semi-Pelagianism).

It's also necessary to point out that those people aren't the rule outside the Church, they're an exception. They aren't "Saved" per se, they became righteous under the Law. Not quite the same thing, and isn't something Christians should encourage people to assume is a good idea. I don't doubt that God will (barring other facts we don't know about) "let them into heaven", but they aren't covered by Christ's sacrifice in the same way. They aren't in the metaphorical lifeboat, they're just very strong swimmers.