/pnd/ - Politics, News, Debate

Neo-cons like Biden, Bolton and Cheney are seething at this lol.

Good boy posting

Good. The wars should come to an end. It does not do any good for anyone to continue, it only leads to more death and destruction. War mongering politicians who support the war should be forced to fight their wars, back their words by their own actions. Of-course that will never happen.

You need to understand what "peace negotiations" means for Russia and for Ukraine.

For Russia it means: "give us time to regroup, replenish our stocks, and we'll try to take Kyiv again".

For Ukraine it means: "we'll ask Russia to retreat to the 1991 borders, if they don't, we will keep fighting".

Those are peace negotiations. Of course, there is no way they'll reach an agreement.

>>392037

Russia wants the Donbass region from becoming a militarized zone near their border, and for Ukraine to cease all talks of joining NATO by a peace treaty.

Ukraine wants all occupied land back including Donbass regions, reparations for the cost of war and damage to infrastructure, release of all war prisoners, a special tribunal to prosecute Russian military officials and Putin, and building security architecture with NATO as a peace agreement.

This will be a difficult, I'm sure. It won't be able to be done under the current Biden administration. I think Trump's administration can get both Ukraine and Russia to negotiate some rational and reasonable stipulations. Certainly some are not very reasonable, others are and can be hashed out.

I would certainly think that Russia and Ukraine could develop a plan to share the Donbass region, as a non-militarized zone with both countries able to surveillance and police activity there. I think Russia should consider some form of reparations to help repair all the damages done during this war, and in exchange Ukraine promise never to join NATO or have anything to do with military agreements with the West.

>>392039

I don’t understand why the Donbass should be a shared region between Russia and Ukraine. Would you like Alaska to be a shared region between the US and Russia?

I don’t understand either why Russia can dictate which organizations can Ukraine belong to. I was under the impression that Ukraine was a free country, and that Ukrainians were free to choose. It seems Russia has a say on what Ukrainians can or can’t do. Would you like Russia to dictate what the US does or doesn’t do?

>>392043

Yes they are indeed at war, a war they had an opportunity to prevent by abiding by the Minsk Agreement with Russia, but they failed to. Not only that, they were pushing for alliance with NATO, being told over and over by Russia this was a massive security threat for their country. Ukraine's government still refused to listen, and they started shelling Russian-speaking civilian villages in the Donbass region near the borders of Russia. So the Ukrainian government is not totally innocent to begin with, they poked the bear and now they are dealing with the consequences. Luckily for Ukraine, Russia is still willing to make a peace settlement, and other real leaders around the globe are willing to help. For now. That's up to Ukraine. Again, it never was my problem no matter what happens. I just hope the best for the citizens who are dying over all of this bullshit.

>>392052

Holy crap, I've never seen so much Russian propaganda in a single post. I'm not sure if there is a single real fact among all the shit you poured there.

So you say Ukrainians should beg Putin for mercy while they can????

Let me drop this list of Russian CONFIRMED deaths (with name, surname and patronymic):

https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng

The real number must be way higher. What kind of country values so little the life of their citizens?

Russia is a death cult.

>>392052

It's not "Russian propaganda" that is the truth. I'm not saying Russia should have invaded Ukraine or they haven't killed people, but they certainly did not start a war with Ukraine because they had no reason to. They have their security concerns just like Ukraine has, yet the West is not yet willing to help Ukraine settle it with simple diplomacy and negotiation and that is a damn shame. The longer they wait, the more get killed, the more gets destroyed, the longer the recovery will take when it ends.

Furthermore, what do you neo-cons plan on doing if Ukraine cannot win this war? Are you just going to move onto another proxy war somewhere else again? Are you going to try bringing us into WWIII and expect us to fight your unsustainable wars? Seriously, what happens if the war doesn't give you the results you expected? I'm really interested to hear about the next plan.

>>392066

Russia started a war with Ukraine because Russians can never find out that every country that embraces Europe becomes better. Life is way more pleasant in any ex-USSR republic that now belongs to Europe than in Russia. NATO is an excuse, otherwise Russia would have done something diplomatic to prevent Finland from joining NATO, and adding 1400 km of NATO border with Russia. The only thing they did was to send empty threats that never materialized. They are bullies, they are a joke, and they only fight the little guys they know for sure they can beat. And in the case of Ukraine, they made a terrible mistake. The average Russian on the street is paying this mistake dearly, and things can implode anytime, which is what Putin fears most. There was already one coup attempt by Prigozhin, and there will be more.

Ukrainians have a choice, between developing their country and improving their quality of life, or accepting the corrupt crap Russia offers, and they clearly chose. Since Russia can't stand that their neighbors have better living standards than them, they bomb the shit out of them, so they become worse.

And you are saying we need to "negotiate" with these people…

By the way, you are obsessed with neocons. I bet you have nightmares about them every night.

>>392070

>every country that embraces Europe becomes better

That is absolutely not true though. Look at the state of many European nations today, they are openly arresting journalists and banning dissent. They are importing millions of third world migrants that are causing violent crime waves and rape to skyrocket and when a victim tries to defend themselves the victim gets thrown in jail. That's not democracy, that's a totalitarian shithole. See >>392068

>Life is way more pleasant in any ex-USSR republic

The USSR collapsed and that is a good thing, life was hell under the USSR. Modern Russia has adopted capitalism, they have domestic industry, agriculture, energy production, manufacturing, etc today. If they didn't they would have already been defeated.

>Ukrainians have a choice, between developing their country and improving their quality of life, or accepting the corrupt crap Russia offers

No, ironically they do not. Many men are forced into conscription against their will. Elections are indefinitely suspended. How is martial law and permanent government you cannot vote out a "choice"?

>you are obsessed with neocons

Neo-cons took over America's foreign policy starting with Bush Jr/Dick Cheney and people like Victory Nuland, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Bolton, et al and ever since then America has been at constant war & proxy wars all over the globe while they allow our country and economy and our domestic security go to complete shit. They are all very bad leaders who do not care about OUR, we the people's interests, and seem happy to sacrifice our national interests just to continue their bad failed interventionist foreign policies. These are the same idiots who are constantly obsessed with Russia, Iran, China, Syria, Africa. They always find more and more boogeymen. They have 0% knowledge or skill in diplomacy or national leadership. They are straight up sick and demented. Even Obama was getting tired of all their fear mongering. They need to go already.

>>392072

>Look at the state of many European nations today, they are openly arresting journalists and banning dissent. They are importing millions of third world migrants that are causing violent crime waves and rape to skyrocket and when a victim tries to defend themselves the victim gets thrown in jail. That's not democracy, that's a totalitarian shithole.

You have never been in Europe, have you? I have. Many times, in many countries. Quite recently. It has nothing to do with what you describe there.

>Modern Russia has adopted capitalism, they have domestic industry, agriculture, energy production, manufacturing, etc today. If they didn't they would have already been defeated.

You have never been in Russia, right? I have, a few times. If you only visit Moscow and Saint Petersburg you might even believe what you say. Once you get out of that bubble, it has nothing to do with what you describe there. Why do you think Russian soldiers were looting toilets and washing machines? Who the fuck loots toilets????

https://www.ft.com/content/a2fb8dd9-66df-4311-a9ff-fb43129afb6e

You could exchange your two answers: in Russia people fight for a toilet, and the government openly arrest journalists and ban the dissent:

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/evan-gershkovich-russia-trial-dbabd6e3#

You are lucky if you go to jail. They usually kill you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya

>No, ironically they do not.

What was the Euromaidan about? BTW, Ukrainians fight a zillion times more enthusiastically than Russians.

>Neo-cons took over America's foreign policy blablabla

You are obsessed with neocons. Also, you say you are worried about domestic issues. Why do you keep complaining about foreign policy, if what worries you are domestic issues?

>>392075

>You are obsessed with neocons. Also, you say you are worried about domestic issues. Why do you keep complaining about foreign policy, if what worries you are domestic issues?

We need better leadership in the US and the neo-cons only care about war. That's why. Americans are sick of it. We want better leadership. Fuck Russia, fuck Ukraine, fuck Europe. We want America back!

HAL TURNER COMMENTS ON RUSSIA-UKRAINE & WORLD WAR III:

The Kremlin has already planned for "change in American leadership" with respect to its ongoing Special Military Operation (SMO) in Ukraine.

If a change in American leadership begets a reasonable, mature, responsible President, there is room for Russia to attempt trust again and negotiate.

If, however, the change in American leadership begets another foreign policy idiot - or worse, a pro-NATO Zealot - then there are very clear and precise steps Russia has already decided to take. None of them are good.

A few of the actions Russia will take are really bad; for Ukraine, Europe, the US, and the world economy.

One step the Russians have already decided they may have to take, is unspeakable.

The Kamala Harris dingbat, would beget the "really bad" changes because the Russians would rightly see her as a puppet whose strings are being pulled by the same shadowy figures now running the Biden regime. That would mean endless war for Russia, in Ukraine, and that is something the Russians simply will not be lured into. They will act decisively, and that means hugely bad news for Ukraine.

When such developments take place in Ukraine, NATO would feel compelled to enter the fray and the moment that happens, it's World War III and the (nuclear) missiles fly.

Another possibility is that the Democrats coalesce around a mature, practical, candidate, with whom the practical realities can be frankly discussed:

► Russia will not allow US missiles to be placed on the territory of Ukraine because those missiles would have a 5-10 minute flight time to Moscow and to Russia's strategic missile silos. No country on earth can defend themselves against missiles that can be launched, and strike targets, within 5-10 minutes.

► The placement of such missiles would be an existential threat to Russia and, like US President John F. Kennedy did with Cuba in 1963, Russia would have to strike them anyway. So now that Russia is already in Ukraine, taking the rest of that country would then become a necessity as a "buffer zone" against NATO.

► The Donbas territories in Ukraine that are now part of Russia (Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson, Zaporozhe) voted in public referendum to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. They will not ever be back as Ukraine.

If the practical realities can be discussed with a mature, rational, reasonable Democrat, there is hope to avoid a much worse conflict.

If, however, the candidate actually chosen by the Democrats is a nitwit - or some bizarre pro-NATO/Nazi war hawk - there's nothing to talk about anymore. And NO! We The People will not fight your wars for you!!!! Washington DC and it's dolts will be toast!!!

Americans are not being told exactly what's at stake here, because the Biden regime does not want them knowing how badly they have screwed up, and how much danger our country is actually in because of their screw-ups.

With Biden's withdrawal from the Presidential Race, things could go wild weasel a lot sooner than anyone thought.

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/news-selections/world-news/kremlin-monitoring-developments-after-biden-drop-out-a-lot-can-change

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/news-selections/world-news/russia-conducts-second-nuclear-deployment-exercise-in-a-month-u-s-continuity-of-govt-encrypted-radio-orders-in-progress

In the end, I don't care what happens, as long as America can thrive and avoid direct conflict with Russia aka another world war. AMERICA should be our #1 concern, not any other nation.

>>392104

You are really scared of Russia, LOL

>>392103

>>392120

Yeeeah, well. The problem is, if we abandon Ukraine, China will take Taiwan. And Taiwan is waaaaay easier to take than Ukraine. Because why not? Who will help Taiwan? Nobody. Us? No, no, we are too busy dealing with domestic issues.

And then half the chip industry is fucked. And we'll see how the prices of our beloved iphones and samsung phones and macs and pcs and graphics cards and TVs and anything that has a chip on it, that is, everything, skyrockets. And China will take over the whole chip industry unrivaled. And then we are fucked. Did we want to focus on China? Well, we won't be able to, because we will depend on them for ANYTHING. For building a fucking washing machine, for instance.

North Korea will also get frisky, and might take onto South Korea, because who's going to stop them? You guessed right, NOBODY. And Iran will move forward with its nuclear program. Who will stop them? NO ONE.

And the US will be isolated and poorer.

Apart from the fact that if Russia pushes Ukraine too hard, they will nuke Russia. They can develop nuclear weapons in a heartbeat. Why didn't they do it yet? Because they don't want to lose the support of the US. But hey, take the support away, and get the popcorn out of the microwave to watch WWIII unfold, because we were not able to send some rusty, old weapons from storage to Ukraine, to show that if you try to change the world order by force, you are fucked.

But will Taiwan retaliate with nuclear weapons against China? No way. They have no fucking idea how to develop a nuclear weapon. And China would take over Taiwan in days, or even hours. They won't have time.

Will South Korea nuke North Korea? Nope. They can't. But North Korea can nuke South Korea. And why not? The US won't do anything…

The cost of keeping Ukraine alive is sooooo small, and the cost of letting Ukraine die is soooo high, that only someone reaaaaally stupid would abandon Ukraine. Keeping Ukraine alive sends a clear message to all the bullies of this world.

Obama abandoned Ukraine. Do you want to do like Obama???? Really??????

>>392136

>>392137

So the only way out of this is, inevitably, nuclear world war… or through peaceful diplomacy… and I say nuclear world war inevitably because Russia is not backing down nor is Ukraine, NATO, the US or Europe at this point. So how do you think this all ends if no one is willing to de-escalate? Worse, do you really think nuclear war is worth avoiding diplomacy? The neo-cons don't seem to care, that's a very dangerous and risky game they play in Washington DC, a game they play with ALL OUR LIVES.

As for Taiwan and microchips. If we had smart, decent non-corrupted leadership in America we would be building our own chips, we would have our own domestic self-sufficient industries to mitigate foreign interference. We would have diplomacy and trade with other nations so they wouldn't be so hostile to us or our allied too. If we were friendly with China and Russia, and trading with them, all this bullshit would not happen in the first place. TRUMP WAS RIGHT: we have so many enemies because we have so stupid leadership today!

Sacred? Yah, I'm scared stiff. Idiots and dolts have access to our nuclear weapons in the White House! And Russia ain't bluffing either!

During the USSR we had better leadership and they solved the Cuban Missile Crisis, and as much as they hated the USSR, the USSR agreed to a solution with the US and backed out of it, using diplomacy.

>>392137

>Obama abandoned Ukraine. Do you want to do like Obama?

Obama and Trump were smart. They didn't poke the bear using Ukraine as some proxy puppet state.

>But North Korea can nuke South Korea

Yah, they could. But why would they do such a thing if we had negotiations with them and stopped the hostility like Trump did while in office?

That's the point of diplomacy, it's keeping nations in check and creating stability in the world. War only leads to more of the same: more disasters, more killing, more invasions and inevitably economic and political destabilization. It's going to wreck havok in the world and in the end it's going to get us nothing good anyway. Don't bother trying to scare Americans into a draft, the vast majority of us never wanted these wars and if we were in charge things would be a lot better and much more stable, like during the Trump years.

>>392103

>>392140

When people say "Special Military Operation" and "poke the bear" I know I'm talking to Russians. Or at least people that are paid in rubles (is it ruble or rubble? at this point I don't know 🤷🏻‍♂️).

Obama and Trump did not deter, and then it led to this situation. Did you want to prevent a large-scale war? Then the way is to send a clear message to Russia: if you attack Ukraine, you are done. The message was not clear, there is war.

It was not diplomacy what saved South Korea. It is the fact that they have a booming weapon industry, and even if the US is flaky in their support, they are a fearsome enemy.

By the way. We are flaky, and Trump plans to be flakier. How sad.

>>392139

>So the only way out of this is, inevitably, nuclear world war… or through peaceful diplomacy… and I say nuclear world war inevitably because Russia is not backing down nor is Ukraine, NATO, the US or Europe at this point.

Russia won't dare use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, unless Ukraine uses them first. The solution is to prevent Ukraine from using their nuclear weapons. To this, just send the old and rusty stockpile of weapons the US doesn't need anymore and that have terrible maintenance cost to Ukraine. We save money and we save the world from a nuclear holocaust.

>As for Taiwan and microchips. If we had smart, decent non-corrupted leadership in America we would be building our own chips, we would have our own domestic self-sufficient industries to mitigate foreign interference. We would have diplomacy and trade with other nations so they wouldn't be so hostile to us or our allied too. If we were friendly with China and Russia, and trading with them, all this bullshit would not happen in the first place. TRUMP WAS RIGHT: we have so many enemies because we have so stupid leadership today!

Yes, Trump has a great plan, let me show it to you:

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/01/business/trump-tower-saudi-arabia/index.html

I'd call this a COI, especially with all the problems we have in the middle east right now, but what do I know?

>Russia ain't bluffing either!

Russian red lines (aka "don't poke the bear!"):

- Do not attack Crimea, or else -> Broken. Consequences? Zero.

- Do not deploy soldiers in Ukraine -> Broken. Consequences? Zero.

- Do not send weapons to Ukraine -> Broken. Consequences? Some threats than ended up in nothing.

- Do not "interfere" in Ukraine during the "SMO" -> Broken. Consequences? Europeans had to change gas suppliers. GOOD.

- Withdraw NATO troops and missiles from Russian western border -> Broken. Consequences? Zero.

- Stop NATO expansion and revert to NATO 1997 -> Broken (Sweden and Finland recently joined). Consequences? Zero.

- Don't send fighter jets to Ukraine -> Broken. Consequences? Zero.

- Don't send HIMARS/tanks/Patriots/etc -> Broken. Consequences? Zero.

- Don't send ATACMs -> Broken. Consequences? Putin says "It was a terrible mistake". The whole invasion thing? Yep.

Don't send F-16 fighter planes -> Broken. Consequences? Putin says: "It's a colossal risk". Yeah. For them.

- Don't send long-range missiles to Ukraine -> Broken. Consequences?

It seems to me that the bear is deeply sleep, or maybe there is no bear at all. Well, maybe there were some consequences, like the survival of Ukrainian statehood and that Russia attacked a children hospital. I hope all the pro-life in this forum take notes.

European/US red lines:

- Don't invade Ukraine -> Broken. Consequences? Weapons sent to Ukraine, 500000+ Russian soldiers death or wounded, sanctions, economy going downhill.

- Murder and abduction of Ukrainian children -> Broken. Consequences? The ICC issues an arrest order against Putin. Still standing.

- Do not interfere with civilian ships of NATO countries in the Black Sea -> Broken. Consequences? NATO warships patrol the Black Sea. Russia fleet abandons the Black Sea.

- Do not use chemical weapons in Ukraine -> Broken. Consequences? So far zero, we are being pussies here.

I would say Europe + US take a much stronger stance against breaking red lines than Russia. Russia is all blablabla.

>>392171

>The solution is to prevent Ukraine from using their nuclear weapons. To this, just send the old and rusty stockpile of weapons the US doesn't need anymore and that have terrible maintenance cost to Ukraine.

Yes, we have been doing this already. For TWO YEARS. How much longer? How much do taxpayers have to pay for this war, a couple more Trillion? And when does this war end? What if Ukraine does not win despite us constantly funding the war? Then what?

As for consequences. European economy collapsing. Ukraine's economy already has collapsed. More nations are turning away from the West due to weaponization of the US Dollar (BRICS+). Russia no longer relies on the dollar, they backed their currency with oil and gold. Millions of Ukrainians and Russians killed. American and European mercenaries killed. American and European military equipment being depleted at a faster rate than we can produce more equipment.

>The Trump Organization revealed plans Monday to develop a luxury Trump Tower in Saudi Arabia.

Capitalism is always better than war. War destroys nations. Capitalism builds and benefits society. I would hope America chooses capitalism.

>>392172

>How much do taxpayers have to pay for this war, a couple more Trillion?

Nothing, that's shit that's in storage and that would never be used anyway. But it's quite effective against the crap Russia has.

>And when does this war end?

When Russia gets out of Ukraine, of course.

>What if Ukraine does not win despite us constantly funding the war? Then what?

If you fund Ukraine, they will win. The question is "What if I let Ukraine lose?". Then you and I are fucked. Taiwan will be invaded. Iran and North Korea will become aggressive, and Alaska will eventually become Russian.

>As for consequences. European economy collapsing.

Dude, you have never been in Europe. Really. Russian economy is collapsing, not European's.

>More nations are turning away from the West due to weaponization of the US Dollar (BRICS+).

The BRICS are a joke, they can't agree on anything.

>American and European military equipment being depleted at a faster rate than we can produce more equipment.

Sure, how many F35s does the US have? How many did we send to Ukraine? Depleting… Old equipment. Like Russia. Do you know they are sending T-54 tanks to the frontline? Do you know what the 54 stands for? The manufacturing date. 1954. Who's depleting what, I wonder? And they have to resort to North Korean shells…

>Capitalism is always better than war. War destroys nations. Capitalism builds and benefits society. I would hope America chooses capitalism.

A Trump tower in Saudi Arabia is a COI. That's not capitalism, that's oligarchy. Do you like oligarchy? As a Trump and Putin lover, maybe you do.

>>392221

I'll believe all this when Ukraine starts to win against Russia, in the meantime…. *YAWN* !!!

As for Russia's economy, why don't you simply ask the World Bank and what they recently reported.

When it comes to oligarchy, America already is an oligarchy, only you liberals are the oligarchs, we don't have a conservative common sense oligarchy we have a neo-liberal/neo-con commie faggot freedom-bashing "elite" that hates us. You really think we care if Putin wins this war? You really fucking think we even care at this point? THINK AGAIN.

>>392221

>you and I are fucked

No, jew, only you and your slime lose if Jewkraine “loses” (whatever that even means at this point…).

“We”, no, you kike have no right to associate with us, humans. You are rats of satan, and EVERYONE KNOWS IT.

You are scared because Khazaria 2.0 was your hope and now that light seems a little dim. Everyone hates Israel, and at some point truly when the majority flips - WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO RUN TO?

Where can you hide? In the day of the internet? What country, once global judaism awareness reaches its tipping point, will be strong enough to take you in?

Do you maniacs believe USA, Russia, and China are your golems forever? Did you forget what the golems inevitably do to your kind…?

TKD!

>TKD

TKD

I don't really care what happens anymore. Even if there is another world war I'm not participating in any of it nor will my family be either. I really can care less who wins, who loses. I'm done with upside down clown world and the psychopaths who run this fucked up show.

>>392241

That's a good position. You don't care about anyone, until they come after you. Then there is no one left to help you.

By the way, Venezuela ok? Do you know there are Russian operatives in Venezuela right now?

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/venezuela-pmc-wagner-mercenaries-spotted-among-local-police/

By the time you wake up Russia will have won the war you didn't know you were already fighting, and they will go after you.

>>392416

I've heard more death threats from radical leftists and neo-cons alike than I ever heard from any Russian…. so I'll take my chances, thank you.

>>392416

Well, the jews are already fighting against me, so if it turns out Russians and the jews are against me, I still only care about TKD.

If the jews fucked up this badly, then the world will be Russia’s. But it won’t. Because unlike the jews, that’s not their objective.

TOTAL KIKE DEATH

>>392432

You're right, Russian would never dare to threaten China. They know the chinese would crush them.

But the US? Russia owns Trump. If Trump wins, Russia will take over. As long as Trump is assured to stay in power (as the governor of the US oblast of Russia), he'll comply.

That's great!

Ukraine can trade Kursk for the Donbass and Crimea, and thus end the war.

>>392758

Go ahead and set up the negotiation process with Russia then. It's up to diplomacy to make that happen.

>>392759

If Trump negotiates, given that he's going to cede a lot of US land to Russia, he might actually succeed and keep everybody happy.

re23c