No.97109[Last 50 Posts]
Why are wages rising with productivity?
____________________________
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No.97110
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No.97114
What answers have you found so far from the capitalist's perspective?
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No.97117
>minimum wage
>not medium wage
1/10 you didn't even try
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No.97120
Because we have (((capitalism))) not capitalism.
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No.97121
>>97109
This thread again? What, do you wait 6 months before posting the same tired graph?
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No.97122
>>97121
I'm just trying to get awareness for workers' rights
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No.97123
>>97109
fractional reserve banking
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No.97126
>>97109
No matter how much you may hate capitalism the one thing that cannot be denied is that anyone with enough drive, ambition, motivation, creativity, imagination and determination can make their own rags-to-riches story.
It's a simple fact that there are more millionaires per capita in the United States than in any other nation in history.
Many of you clearly love the *idea* of socialism. (None of you can say you love socialism because none of you have ever lived under it, even when you've had opportunities to do so, such as moving to a socialist country. (InB4 "it's never been tried". Don't try to feed me *that* bullshit, I'm not buying.))
Under communism/socialism there are absolutely *no* opportunities whatsoever to create a rags-to-riches story because there are no avenues for the kinds of opportunities to do that. All there is under socialism is a brutal dog-eat-dog system where the only thing you can do is ruthlessly rise through the party to the top, often having to sell out friend and foe alike in order to achieve your goal. This is a shitty, evil system far more evil and far more shitty than capitalism ever was and is, on that basis alone, an excellent reason to abandon socialism/communism and embrace capitalism.
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No.97139
>>97126
>None of you can say you love socialism because none of you have ever lived under it, even when you've had opportunities to do so
o noes, some anon on the internet canceled my account at the credit union!!
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No.97156
>>97122
Their only right is to die like pigs they are
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No.97157
>>97126
The ones who hate communism the most are those who lived through it.
The ones who love communism have never lived through it, they're typically edgy rebellious atheist teenagers wearing Che Guevara shirts.
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No.97158
>>97139
Disingenuous.
>socialism works guys! Just look at this farmer's coop and that credit union!
>therefore we need to collectivize all land and industry and place it under the control of a central bureau!
Besides, in a free society there is no requirement to arrange every social structure in any particular manner. The fact that these organisations exist is proof that Marx's definition of capitalism is incorrect.
It is not proof that capitalism is inferior to socialism and based on tyrannical hierarchies yet somehow it allows moderately successful egalitarian organisations to exist.
Socialism demands universal equity by by any means.
Capitalism demands nothing because it is the absence of imposition.
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No.97160
>>97109
1. CPI was redefined in the 1970s
2. median productivity != productivity of unskilled labor
3. total compensation (benefits, insurance, 401k) is not included in wages
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No.97163
>>97139
>a voluntary association with a business
>socialist
Do I also turn into a socialist if a friend sleeps on my couch for a week?
>>97160
4. State-mandated employment benefits such as health insurance reduces worker bargaining power and increases the switching cost of finding a new job, disincentivizing workers from seeking new employment if they are unsatisfied with their wage.
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No.97164
>>97163
Also, rapid credit expansion combined with the Cantillon Effect.
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No.97167
>>97163
>Do I also turn into a socialist if a friend sleeps on my couch for a week?
…that depends, do you form a fucking cooperative and operate all joint endeavours by horizontal consensus?
Your question makes about as much sense as "do I turn capitalist if I change the way I part my hair." Maybe, maybe not, has nothing to do with the junk data supplied.
>>97158
> in a free society there is no requirement to arrange every social structure in any particular manner.
I agree. That's why I violate private property every chance I get, and luckily, the cops just answer with "it's a free society, you don't have to arrange yourself in any particular manner." Happens all the time, man!
The property owners, too (well, former) - they also are like "well, it's a free society, so you don't have to choose any property model over another. take my stuff!"
In fact, I've never gotten a different response! (/s)
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No.97175
Productivity is an esoteric meme metric that's more of a red herring than anything. Someone that sends 1000 emails a day doesn't somehow become more valuable to the current technology-driven market than the pony express courier was in his.
Technology (manually operated "productivity machines"), population (almost doubled from the 1970s to today and became more diverse), culture (the percent of females working doubled by the 1980s putting them in direct competition with male labor), globalism (the modern phenomena of mass immigration, illegal immigration, outsourcing and remittances all affect relative wage).
Productivity as an umbrella thing is also retarded because we have 20 million illegal immigrants (like 10% of the entire work force) producing things and being "productive" but also not legally existing.
Also
>minimum wage
Only 3.3% of people make the federal minimum wage and something like 80% or more of them are in the position to earn gratuity (bartenders, servers, take-out delivery drivers etc.). There is a stronger geographical correlation (US) between high cost of living and minimum wage than there is between minimum wage and median wage
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No.97178
>>97167
>(/s)
>>>/reddit/
>That's why I violate private property every chance I get, and luckily, the cops just answer with "it's a free society, you don't have to arrange yourself in any particular manner."
This is what freedom means to a leftist; the ability to go anywhere he pleases and do anything he wants to anyone of his choosing.
No, you moron. It is just as immoral for a corporation to declare a commune to be their own private property as it is for a socialist to redistribute someone's car to themselves.
Freedom means that you get to keep what you make and trade for, not that you get to steal shit because Marx said it's okay.
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No.97179
>>97178
…and this is what freedom means to a "capitalist" : the state ordering people at gunpoint.
>It is just as immoral for a corporation to declare a commune to be their own private property
Kinda happens a lot.
Let's look at the previous post, shall we?
>in a free society there is no requirement to arrange every social structure in any particular manner.
"Nomad" is one option of arranging a social structure in a particular matter. Note how one, and only one model, not generally practiced elsewhere in the world, actually forces other people to arrange THEIR social structure differently (namely, because the 'capitalists' keep jacking their shit)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
There's the war for you. 'Capitalists' tend to use the coercive power of a state to jack other people's shit, and then forcibly restructure their life. Then they try to tell people this is 'freedom.'
>in a free society there is no requirement to arrange every social structure in any particular manner.
Hmm. There seems to be a bit of a gap.
Of course, forcing any property structure on anyone else is ALSO requiring someone to rearrange their social structure. Perhaps they are used to living in the wilderness, where a stick (and hence, anything) is something they just pick up and put down. But I'm talking instead about the 'capitalist' model - stealing other peoples' shit. And then, usually forcibly enslaving them.
Scotland, Ireland, North America, etc, etc…
>there is no requirement to arrange every social structure in any particular manner.
I like our old property system. I like not working for Man.
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No.97183
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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No.97190
>>97179
>this is what freedom means to a "capitalist" : the state ordering people at gunpoint
Keep projecting, welfare leech
>Kinda happens a lot.
Not really. Corporations, unlike constructs that are intertwined with leftist states, have no rights to intervene other people's property.
>one, and only one model, not generally practiced elsewhere in the world, actually forces other people to arrange THEIR social structure differently
It doesn't.
>the 'capitalists' keep jacking their shit
Muh conspiracy boogeyman
>'Capitalists' tend to use the coercive power of a state to jack other people's shit, and then forcibly restructure their life
And by that you mean leftists that are 'capitalists' because capitalism is anything you don't like, right?
>Then they try to tell people this is 'freedom.'
Just like you're doing right now, huh.
>Perhaps they are used to living in the wilderness, where a stick (and hence, anything) is something they just pick up and put down.
That's it, everyone, the leftist wants to be reduced to a literal animal and die from a random disease or contamination 3 days after. Now that this creature said it, it's time to do exactly what it requested and throw it in the wild. It'd greatly increase both general intellect, efficiency, responsibility and genetic code, as well as gift it much, much more than it deserves.
>'capitalist' model - stealing other peoples' shit
You're the one who wants to deprive people from the results of their labor here, don't forget. but keep repeating the boogeyman and assign all you don't like to it. Was it because of 'capitalism' that you were born braindead too?
>I like not working for Man.
And you're free not to, hypocritical scum.
And a reminder, this thing here is only to shill for "workers rights" and shouldn't be treated like anything remotely honest, objective, rational or logical.
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No.97198
>>97109
How come socialism has literally not once ever worked?
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No.97202
>>97198
The USSR worked phenomenally. Look at the gulag system for example.
>http://espressostalinist.com/the-real-stalin-series/gulag/
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No.97208
>>97167
>Your question makes about as much sense as "do I turn capitalist if I change the way I part my hair." Maybe, maybe not, has nothing to do with the junk data supplied.
Excellent work, you've successfully grasped the concepts of sarcasm and hyperbole. If you go the extra mile and read the post to which I replied you might understand why I chose to be sarcastic.
>>97202
I feel like I'm getting hit over the head repeatedly by Poe's Law.
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No.97211
>>97208
> If you go the extra mile and read the post to which I replied you might understand why I chose to be sarcastic.
You're retarded?
>>97198
o noes, my credit union just collapsed.
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No.97212
>>97211
Credit unions are voluntary associations engaging on a free market so it is capitalism. Socialism involves central planning rather than the decentralized structure of a market system which credit unions operate. At best you could say credit unions are mutualist and I would agree.
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No.97216
>>97212
Yes - if socialism is capitalism, with a CEO engaging in the absentee direction of the workers, and capitalism is socialism, operated on a peer-to-peer basis without a controlling proprietor, you would suddenly become correct.
On the other hand, the fact that that's the argument you have to make sort of damns you.
>At best you could say credit unions are mutualist and I would agree.
Which… is socialism.
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No.97217
>>97216
Socialism is fundamentally redistributionism. If no one is forcing anyone to do anything and no one is stealing from anyone else, it absolutely cannot be socialism.
>nah, socialism is just like, looking out for each other, man
No, it isn't.
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No.97221
>>97217
>Socialism is fundamentally redistributionism
…if you're a monarchist, perhaps.
>socialism is just like, looking out for each other, man
Not that either.
>If no one is forcing anyone to do anything and no one is stealing from anyone else, it absolutely cannot be capitalism.
Funny, that's pretty much exactly the Rothbard-SEKIII debate. Then Rothbard went and started screaming about how the state should kill people to increase state control.
Maybe you should try something other than "any lie that's convenient." It would be a new leaf. Alternately, ask yourself WHY you immediately agreed that credit unions are an example of mutualism - which is a middle-of-the-road example of socialism.
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No.97225
>>97211
>if socialism is capitalism
If socialism is socialism then it has nothing to do with credit unions but try to shill for your snowflake definition again, leftyshit
>a CEO engaging in the absentee direction of the workers
>Hurr durr employment is slavery
>operated on a peer-to-peer basis
By property owners
>without a controlling proprietor
With, each of them is a controlling proprietor, controlling his property.
>If no one is forcing anyone to do anything and no one is stealing from anyone else, it absolutely cannot be capitalism.
Oh hey, it's a leftist playing with definitions, again. Who'd have guessed.
>Then Rothbard went and started screaming about how the state should kill people to increase state control.
Nice strawman. Be a good gboy and ignore that state does it, this state part is socialist!
>Maybe you should try something other than "any lie that's convenient."
Coming from a leftist shill that's only here to perpetuate "worker rights" that's fucking ironic.
>mutualism - which is a middle-of-the-road example of socialism
Not really, it's libertarianism with few outdated concepts that were very moderately leftist and are mostly a misunderstanding. Just because degenerate faggots like you use it to shill for their scum ideology doesn't change the basis on which it's built upon.
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No.97231
>>97225
>If socialism is socialism then it has nothing to do with credit union
<but it's already been stated by the poster that started this bullshittery to be in a school of socialism, mutualism.
>With, each of them is a controlling proprietor, controlling his property.
<property, like ownership of mother russia
>Oh hey, I'll just call everyone a leftist. Also, mild edits to bullshit I spew make me reeee.
>Nice strawman. Be a good gboy and ignore that state does it
I will absolutely not ignore Rothbard's support for the state. And no, that's not what "straw man" means.
It was the fucking Attica uprising, by the way.
>Coming from a leftist shill that's only here to perpetuate "worker rights" that's fucking ironic.
One of the lies that's convenient?
>mutualism - which is a middle-of-the-road example of socialism
>Not really
<Proudhon : I am a socialist.
<Jackass on the internet : Reeeee!
>it's libertarianism
The word was coined to mean communism when such terms were outlawed, so it's debatable.
>with few outdated concepts
<Doing shit without the CEO of mother russia - i.e. capitalism - is "outdated" now.
>Just because degenerate faggots like you use it to shill for their scum ideology doesn't change the basis on which it's built upon.
<Namely, socialism.
It's amazing how desperately you wish for "socialism" to mean "capitalism." It's also amazing how thoroughly you don't know what words like "strawman" mean, but keep using them.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Pierre-Joseph-Proudhon
…not all credit unions are based on mutualism, though; while all are at least fairly compatible with mutual-credit banking, several are based on the rochdale principles of… socialism.
But fuck, reeeee more. The more you reeeee, the more intelligent you are, right?
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No.97237
>>97231
>a school of socialism, mutualism
<If i repeat some dumb shit again it meas it's true
>property, like ownership of mother russia
Absolute non-sequitur, countries, like any other socialistic concepts like gangs and thieves only infringe on property, not create it
>I will absolutely not ignore Rothbard's support for the state. And no, that's not what "straw man" means.
You mean, lack thereof? It sure is a strawman, you retarded leftist cocksucker.
<Proudhon : I am a socialist.
Everyone was calling himself a socialism that time, it doesn't imply he was a cum-drizzling scum socialists are now.
>The word was coined to mean communism when such terms were outlawed
Now it's not, stay butthurt, faggot.
>Doing shit without the CEO of mother russia - i.e. capitalism - is "outdated" now.
Nice word twisting, but keep shilling leftist cancer again and again, mindless drone.
>It's amazing how desperately you wish for "socialism" to mean "capitalism."
Keep projecting, dumb scum. Your spam won't change that capitalism is voluntary and socialism is not.
>several are based on the rochdale principles of… socialism.
Because you say so, got it. Do you think that if you repeat your idiotic blabbery it'll make more sense?
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No.97240
>>97237
>You mean, lack thereof?
<articulating a pro-police "tough on crime" viewpoint as early as 1971 when he stunned some readers by advocating a tough crackdown on the Attica State prison uprising
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard
Also…
> It sure is a strawman
No. Unlike shit like…
>Coming from a leftist shill that's only here to perpetuate "worker rights" that's fucking ironic.
…it wouldn't be a strawman whether mistaken or factual. Is it difficult knowing what words mean? Are words hard for you?
>Because you say so, got it. Do you think that (blah blah blah)
http://www.cornerstoneleague.coop/coop_principles.html
https://www.tapcocu.org/principles
https://www.carolinasleague.org/page/sevenprinciples
https://co-opcreditunions.org/7-principles-of-a-cooperative/
…etc. I take it that, like words, search engines are also hard?
Just to head off your next attempt at lying…
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Pierre-Joseph-Proudhon
..there's that again. Aaaand…
>If i repeat some dumb shit again it meas it's true
While it's the operating hypotheosis you've been using, I'm not sure it's been working out for you.
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No.97241
>>97240
>articulating a pro-police "tough on crime" viewpoint
If you steal it means you value your life less than one's possessions and therefore there's nothing wrong with killing you the most painful way. Keep protecting the degenerate scum you are. Keep fearing the retribution for your scummy means of living - the only ones you have, pest.
>Unlike shit like…
Surely that's totally not your post >>97122
>Pile of leftist bullshit
Again, repeat your idiocy again, it won't change the authoritarian nature of a leftist. The only thing shills like you're doing is trying to make leftists look peaceful and friendly while the power hungry scum walks behind your back.
>your next attempt at lying
You're really keen on projecting, aren't you?
>it's the operating hypotheosis you've been using
<get called out
<no u
But keep projecting, thieving scum
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No.97242
>>97241
>Surely that's totally not your post >>97122
No, actually. More in the "I do not wish to work for Man" category m'self.
>If you steal it means you value your life less than one's possession
What a coincidence; the agents of the State which Rothbard was advocating for stole… people.
It's kind of funny how the rest of your post has devolved entirely to name-calling as one lie after another of yours has been whittled down. You chose what you have inside, and now you get to live, alone, with your choices; it's all you WILL have.
Kinda doesn't seem so great now, does it?
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No.97244
>>97126
/thread
In fact, I would go far as I say that (((capitalism))) is in direct opposition to Christianity, it makes it impossible the "love thy neighbour" stuff because the only thing you can do to rise is selling out yourself or your friend.
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No.97245
>>97242
>the agents of the State which Rothbard was advocating for stole
Keep twisting words, subhuman. He was against the criminals, not for the state agents, but leave it to a socialists to defend the lowest worthless human filth there is, the second only to them in destructiveness and degeneracy.
>your post has devolved entirely to name-calling as one lie after another of yours has been whittled down
I see that you're not only a degenerate brainless fuckwit but a fantasizer as well. Do you really have to get that desperate?
>You chose what you have inside, and now you get to live, alone, with your choices; it's all you WILL have.
Well, unlike your projections, i'm not alone and i'm totally fine with living the way i chose to, unlike some unhappy, miserable crybaby.
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No.97246
>>97245
>i'm not alone
Seeing as people tend to be surrounded by those of similar mental health, that mostly makes me pity you more.
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No.97247
>>97244
>(((capitalism))) is in direct opposition to Christianity
>economics is zero-sum game
>neighborly love is about taking their stuff
Spotted leftist /pol/edditor
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No.97248
>>97246
>Seeing as people tend to be surrounded by those of similar mental health, that mostly makes me pity you more.
Man, you're really keen on hanging on other people the stuff you're ashamed of in yourself.
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No.97254
>>97248
> subhuman. degenerate. filth. scum.
That's what you have inside. (and what passes for an argument in your mind).
I just give thanks I'm not on that ride.
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No.97255
>>97216
>absentee direction
I don't see how this is possible without the enterprise failing. Any proof?
>Which… is socialism.
Socialism is collectivist while mutualism is individualist
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No.97256
>>97231
>Proudhon : I am a socialist.
>Rothbard's support for the state
proof?
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No.97264
>>97109
I wonder if some major decidedly anti-capitalist policy decision was made in 1974 that could possibly have affected the global monetary system in such a way that it had an impact on the purchasing power of workers' wages….
It's truly a mystery.
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No.97268
>>97255
>I don't see how this is possible without the enterprise failing
I'm sure using regulation to keep any competition from appearing would help. Ah well.
>Any proof?
Let's reverse that burden; find me one CEO who clocks their shift on the line.
Apparently, the planner is always absentee. Maybe you find one, though, who knows. Then, repeat for each company.
>Socialism is collectivist while mutualism is individualist
Mutualism… is middle-of-the-road socialism, so your thought-terminating cliches are kind of moot, buddy.
>proof?
Sure…
>>Proudhon : I am a socialist.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Pierre-Joseph-Proudhon
https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:sv472mf2714/canto.pdf
https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/social-sciences-and-law/political-science-biographies/pierre-joseph-proudhon
https://www.questia.com/library/333277/the-un-marxian-socialist-a-study-of-proudhon
…etc.
>Rothbard's support for the state
"Attica", The Libertarian Forum, October 1971, p. 1
"Nations by Consent: Decomposing the State" Journal of Libertarian Studies Fall 1994
Right-Wing Populism, 1992
"We need brutal repressions of dissent by the police," "We need a strong state to preserve borders and keep people caged," and "We need a strong state to murder poor people," respectively. Dude didn't have a libertarian bone in his body.
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No.97272
>>97268
Still repeating your dumb shit and spreading lies after you've already eaten shit, leftist scum?
>Mutualism… is middle-of-the-road socialism
How retarded are you, filth?
>Proudhon : I am a socialist.
You've already been told that "socialist" didn't mean "worthless parasitic scum" back then.
>Some leftist projections and strawmanning, because quotes won't help in supporting leftist degeneracy
You don't have a libertarian bone in your body, you're a scummy authoritarian shill that works for another murderous regime to fail and take others' lives with it.
>keep people caged
Criminals aren't people, and neither are you. Enjoy getting your insides smashed in pieces, you disgusting parasitic rodent.
>We need a strong state to murder poor people
Oh, i wish. If a state would do that, i'd probably even support it.
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No.97274
>>97272
>literally every encyclopedia, historical source, and educational institution is a lie! In fact, people even lie about themselves!
You're not terribly impressive, entertaining, frightening, or any other adjective of note, to be honest… and your murder threat against "some guy named anonymous" is pretty toothless. "Uninteresting" would be a better word for it.
>Oh, i wish. If a state would do that, i'd probably even support it.
…though "banned from the board" is pretty good too. There's a sticky up top.
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No.97275
>>97274
>literally every encyclopedia, historical source, and educational institution is a lie! In fact, people even lie about themselves!
How dumb are you, little shit? Words are not magical thing, they change their meaning through time, yet you're too retarded to get that.
>your murder threat
I'm saying that's what you deserve and what you'll get, not what i'll do, though i do hope that'll happen. But keep shitting your pants, you little whiny bitch.
>"banned from the board"
You shouldn't even appear here, leftist.
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No.97290
>>97268
>regulation
Control economy is not an aspect of capitalism.
>Let's reverse that burden
The burden only relies on the person making the claim.
>find me one CEO who clocks their shift on the line
Using that logic I guess that makes salary workers part of absentee management.
>middle-of-the-road socialism
So no argument? Using that logic, I could say it is also middle-of-the-road capitalism.
>Proudhon : I am a socialist.
Where in those links does he state this? In the first link he claims to be an anarchist, criticizes Marxian and traditional communism, rejects authoritarianism, and supports decentralization and free contracts.
>Rothbard links
I see that you took those links directly from rationalwiki Could you point exactly where in those that those quotes are located? In the first source, Rothbard suggests that quick action by the state is a more preferable option than carrying out the mutiny at Attica. This would result in less deaths and discourage other prisoners from committing more NAP violations in other prisons (“And as for the moral guilt of the killings, it should be clear that this lies upon the head of the kidnappers themselves, and not upon the guardsmen who were trying to end the crisis and rescue the hostages.”). Further on, he mentioned that this whole mutiny is the result of the state, not only in incarceration but also grouping violent agitators together so that prisoners are more conducive to mutiny.
In the second source, Rothbard mentions that “private property boundaries are just; that is, to decompose existing coercive nation-states into genuine nations, or nations by consent.” This is in no way justifying state or police force.
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No.97293
>>97290
>Control economy is not an aspect of capitalism.
<surrendering private ownership that quickly.
>So no argument? Using that logic, I could say it is also middle-of-the-road capitalism.
No, you could not. You'd have to make your own argumentation, which I'm noticing is none. Or outright lying, such as…
>Where in those links does he state this? In the first link
What is the first sentence in the first link?
>Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, (born January 15, 1809, Besançon, France—died January 19, 1865, Paris), French libertarian socialist…
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Pierre-Joseph-Proudhon
Right. Your hope that no one will click is not impressive.
Speaking of which…
>>97275
>Words change their meaning over time
<Last Updated: Jan 30, 2019
Well, that was quick. Or wishful.
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No.97295
>>97293
<surrendering private ownership that quickly.
What do you mean by this? How is this relevant to the argument? Regulations are a method in which the state directs markets
>No, you could not.
I can easily say that because both support markets, voluntary contracts, and individualism. I am still waiting for that argument.
“First sentence”
Here is the first sentence: "Proudhon was born into poverty as the son of a feckless cooper and tavern keeper, and at the age of nine he worked as a cowherd in the Jura Mountains."
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No.97298
>>97295
> Regulations are a method in which the state directs markets
..while a command economy is the method by which the private owner directs large groups of workers.
>Here is the first sentence
That is the second paragraph.
-
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
French philosopher
Written By: George Woodcock
Last Updated: Jan 30, 2019 See Article History
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, (born January 15, 1809, Besançon, France—died January 19, 1865, Paris), French libertarian socialist and journalist whose doctrines became the basis for later radical and anarchist theory.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Pierre-Joseph-Proudhon
-
>I can easily say that because both support markets, voluntary contracts, and individualism
…two out of three of which are not really found in capitalism. There's a charming rape meme from a completely different topic which is sort of famous; the punchline is "but she won't say no, because of the implications."
You're free to argue that capitalism only occurs when there is no private ownership and a matter is governed by the horizontal consensus of the people actually doing the work. I'll have no idea what the fuck you're on (probably the all so common "words mean I'm right because there are no meanings" thing that is all too common around here), but it's a step up from "'Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, (born January 15, 1809, Besançon, France—died January 19, 1865, Paris), French libertarian socialist' doesn't say he's socialist anywhere in that sentence! Look! I can skip several paragraphs down!"
Which is frankly downright pathetic. Illuminating, but pathetic.
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No.97315
>>97293
>Last Updated
>Completely missing the whole point
You're absolutely retarded. Kill yourself, not as a retribution but an act of mercy.
>>97298
>hile a command economy is the method by which the private owner directs
That's not what command economy means, you dumb shit.
>two out of three of which are not really found in capitalism
That's absolutely idiotic statement.
>There's a charming rape meme from a completely different topic which is sort of famous; the punchline is "but she won't say no, because of the implications."
<Inb4 employment is slavery
You're really pathetic, despite all your parroting.
>capitalism only occurs when there is no private ownership
Kill yourself, retarded commie shill.
>by the horizontal consensus of the people actually doing the work
What does anything of this shilling have to do with freedom?
>French libertarian socialist' doesn't say he's socialist anywhere in that sentence!
<Hurr durr socialism has always been the same, look, my appeal to authority says it is!
How low a leftist IQ can get?
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No.97316
>>97298
>command economy is the method by which the private owner directs large groups of workers.
Nope: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/centrally-planned-economy.asp
" an economic system in which the state or government makes economic decisions rather than the these being made by the interaction between consumers and businesses. Unlike a market economy — in which private citizens and business owners make production decisions — a centrally planned economy controls what is produced and the distribution and use of resources."
>That is the second paragraph.
This is not showing in my mobile link. Looking throughout the article it states multiple times that he is an anarchist and critical against socialist authorization advocated by Marx. This seems to contradict your above statement unless you are using some broad definition of socialism or the article is using a bastardized definition of anarchism that is somehow socialist but also against socialist doctrine.
>…two out of three of which are not really found in capitalism
proof?
>You're free to argue that capitalism only occurs when there is no private ownership and a matter is governed by the horizontal consensus of the people actually doing the work.
I do not see how this applies to credit unions since these institutions are operated by private proprietors and have wage labor employment.
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No.97325
>>97315
>>97316
Just don't bother responding to spergs like this. He's going to keep juggling dictionaries no matter how well you argue against him, and if you do manage to back him into a corner, he'll just reframe the argument until it's a question he can answer, and the process repeats. If you stop giving him replies he'll go away; look at what happened to that retard who kept linking to his literotica profile or whatever, people stopped responding to his posts and before long he stopped posting.
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No.97370
>>97316
>This is not showing in my mobile link.
I'm… actually quite refreshed that it is that, rather than the willfull lying that characterizes so many other posters.
Yup. Direct quote, plus a few other things.
>ooking throughout the article it states multiple times that he is an anarchist and critical against… authorization advocated by Marx.
EVERYONE was. Which is why his little clique collapsed for lack of a quorum when everyone ditched him to hang out with Bakunin.
Meanwhile, before Murray "We are not anarchists" Rothbard gave trolling for anarchomonarchism a try, there were no nonsocialist anarchists. Try asking on their subs sometime…
>an economic system in which the state or government makes economic decisions rather than the these being made by the interaction between consumers and businesses
…and corporate governance makes economic decisions for the company, while the USSR's international trade was an open and free market.
Keep in mind that there is literally no discernable difference between a private owner and a state, though most private land owners count as a suzerain or protectorate in modern times due to, you know, being within some state's property borders.
> credit unions… are operated by private proprietors
Nope. Controlled mutually by depositors. There is neither "bob who owns this bank" nor shareholders who are not depositors.
Since the other one displays oddly on mobile, see what this one can do for you…
https://www.encyclopedia.com/people/social-sciences-and-law/political-science-biographies/pierre-joseph-proudhon
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No.97490
>>97370
>and corporate governance makes economic decisions for the company,
Based on price signaling and market forces. The state does not really rely on this.
>Keep in mind that there is literally no discernible difference between a private owner and a state,
There is a huge difference. Besides market forces, the private owner does not hold a monopoly on force and acquired the property legitimately via homestead and use.
>Nope. Controlled mutually by depositors.
Nope. They are operated by non-depositors employed through wage labor whether it is a teller or a service rep.
>link
Still, as I mentioned before, stating that someone is a socialist even from an authoritative source, does not mean it is true unless they prove their claim. Just like how most authoritative sources state that agorism is leftist and that Spooner was a socialist (video related).
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No.97491
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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No.97500
>>97490
>Based on price signaling and market forces.
…which the USSR experienced in international trade.
>There is a huge difference. Besides market forces,
…which apply to the USSR, actual socialist endeavors such as worker-run firms…
>the private owner does not hold a monopoly on force
Great! Post your address and people from the internet will be by to kick you out of your living room!
>and acquired the property legitimately via homestead and use.
I'd just like to say a hello to the native peoples of scotland, the americas, australia…
>Still, as I mentioned before, stating that someone is a socialist even from an authoritative source, does not mean it is true unless they prove their claim.
I dunno, proposed a system of peer-to-peer mutual aid without a capitalist proprietor, so, the exact definition.
>Just like how most authoritative sources state that agorism is leftist
…authoritative sources such as SEKIII, in fact.
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No.97530
>>97500
>which the USSR experienced in international trade.
Even with accurate price signals from international markets, one must also avoid distorting internal markets (i.e. central planning) so these imported resources are allocated efficiently.
>actual socialist endeavors such as worker-run firms
Worker-run firms in the form, of cooperatives or partnerships are capitalistic.
>people from the internet will be by to kick you out of your living room!
Being well-armed would make this improbable so I do not see how this shows that this person has a monopoly on force.
>system of peer-to-peer mutual aid without a capitalist proprietor
Examples?
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No.97537
>>97109
When a portion of your taxes go to corporate entities and your money is monopoly cash you no longer have capitalism. We haven't had true capitalism since the federal reserve went back to controlling the money. What we have is a seriously fucked up global plutocracy
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No.97545
>>97530
> one must also avoid distorting internal markets (i.e. central planning)
…congrats, you just completely abolished the private ownership of a firm which essentially defines capitalism, junking it in favor of a market socialist/agorist/syndicalist fusion. You know, peer-to-peer INTERNAL markets. :)
<socialism is capitalism and capitalism is socialism post #249,379,436,293…
's all good.
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No.97552
>>97545
…you're a huge faggot, there's no reason anyone should entertain your gay retard posts. It's only due to the kindness and autism of liberty-minded folks that you aren't just ignored like you ought to be. :^)
>inb4 some gay shit about not an argument
You're obnoxious. Don't need to argue about that.
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No.97586
>>97545
>you just completely abolished the private ownership of a firm
How so?
>peer-to-peer INTERNAL markets.
That is compatible with capitalism
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No.97596
>>97586
>That is compatible with capitalism
…if you're the same poster, a second ago you were saying that hanging the bosses and seizing worker's control of the firm was capitalism.
Meanwhile, the system in question is usually called a buyers' coop, which can become a workers' coop fairly easily.
>How so?
Ownership = command. Since capitalism is distinguished from other systems by human rent - see the SEKIII/Rothbard debates for that - this leaves one person operating a GIANT command economy. Maybe it competes externally to itself like the USSR did. Maybe it tries to set up a "too big to fail" status and engineer some dubious monopolies. In either case, its characteristics are exactly those of the former USSR, a large command economy run by one, maybe-charismatic maybe-not, guy.
Your responses so far suggest you'd be interested in most of the left; mutualist socialism, the rochdale cooperatives, agorism, and the like.
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No.97633
>>97537
when did we have true capitalism in europe?
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No.97666
>>97596
> a second ago you were saying that hanging the bosses and seizing worker's control of the firm was capitalism
where did I state that?
>leaves one person operating a GIANT command economy
Capitalism operates under a market economy not a command economy
>Maybe it competes externally to itself like the USSR did.
>Maybe it tries to set up a "too big to fail" status and engineer some dubious monopolies.
None of this is capitlism, so what makes you think I support it?
>agorism
Agorism is not even leftist since it involves a market economy and voluntary transactions among private entities.
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No.97677
>>97666
>Capitalism operates under a market economy not a command economy
>None of this is capitlism, so what makes you think I support it?
As near as I can tell Satan, through his confused ramblings the leftist is trying to imply that corporations are command economies because they have a top-down structure, and a couple internal policy decisions aren't made using price signals you and I both know they are, but the resident sperg doesn't. Therefore, according to his logic, any market interaction that isn't completely peer-to-peer and wholly without hierarchy is ackshually a command economy, and will fail for the same reasons we lolbergs say command economies will fail.
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No.97790
>>97490
>>97491
maybe u are using different definitions of socialism?
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No.97824
>>97790
Could be. Is there are definition of socialism that accepts wage labor and private property?
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No.97826
>>97157
This is mainly false
Various countries have communist parties that are overwhelmingly supported by the people (Cuba China DPR-Korea) and states that once held socialist Goverments commonly still have "Socialist" parties that still remain popular in politics (Albania Bulgaria Romania Russia etc)
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No.97827
But to answer OP's question….
<Capitalism
If workers were payed in line with their productivity ("From each according to his ability to each according to his need") the rate of profit would collapse and the capitalist system with it
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No.97852
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No.97912
>>97826
>Get socially boycotted, thrown in jail or even executed for not expressing support for, let alone critizing, the state
<Look, the people love communism!
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No.97915
>>97824
>>97852
It depends on what definition of Socialism one uses as "Socialism" as a term is used to represent a multitude of groups (Marxists / SocialDemocrats / Fascists etc)
In the Marxist sense Socialism is essentially a simpler way of saying "Lower stage Communism" or "the transitional stage towards communism"
Whether a Marxist led Socialist economy does or does not incorporate Market elements / private enterprise into their economy varies depending on the material conditions of those nations
The Soviets with the cancelling of the NEP and the mass nationalisation of industry and collectivisation of agriculture effectivly ended private enterprise in the USSR (This model can still be seen surviving in the
While some socialist states (China Vietnam Laos Cuba as currently existing examples) have had to take much more lenient approaches towards private enterprise
<TLDR
Yes private enterprise can exist within socialist economies as long as the Dictatorship of Tempe Proletariate and the Communist / Marxist party maintains control over the commanding heights of the economy (As currently seen in China Vietnam Laos Cuba Etc)
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No.97925
>>97915
is any european state socialist?
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No.97948
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No.98167
>>97915
It's interesting to see your definition compared to this other leftist we have here who considers Proudhon to be a true socialist and hates Marx.
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No.98179
>>98167
Leftism isn't about ideas or principles but rather about justifying agression against the productive and successful.
From the days of the french revolution to the communes in the Spanish Civil War, the USSR and modern American "liberals", what they care about is destroying the very idea of competence. Definitions come later.
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No.98208
>>98179
>parasites
>'the productive and successful'
Funny how your "success" has always required regulatory capture.
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No.98211
>>97666
>Agorism… involves a market economy and voluntary transactions among private entities.
Both of which are anticapitalist, since capitalism is based on non-market actions through regulatory capture to enforce oligopolic central planning.
The SEKIII/Rothbard debate was referenced… for a reason. It was quite literally a disagreement about central planners and the ensuing class stratification and capture, which SEKIII was against.
It would probably interest you to read a bit more about Bakunin's critiques of Marx, which occurred around the time Marx was booted out of the international. Long story short, the oligarchs have always engaged in a market economy between each other (as did the owner/CEO and high-ranked corporate officers of russia), but have essentially NEVER allowed a market economy outside of this.
…and the SEKIII/Rothbard debate firmly makes central planning the central and defining feature of capitalism, and the only thing that differentiates it from left-libertarian philosophies like agorism.
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No.98272
>>98208
>this much projection from (((union))) shill
>>98211
>freedom of dissociation is regulatory capture
>it's command economy if there are commands
imagine actually believing this
>left-libertarian philosophies like agorism
Shilling leftist subversive lies again? Eat shit once more, leftism has nothing to do with agorism.
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No.98300
>>98272
Wait how does him bitching about regulatory capture make him a union shill? I thought libertarians were against regulatory capture.
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No.98303
>>98300
He was shilling for credit unions and such before itt, all while shitting on other private organizations because they are "command economy" and "slavery". Other than that, regulatory capture is indeed a problem and there's nothing wrong with calling it out, unless you try to redefine it as anything else, just like juggling definitions and moving goalposts is a common leftist tactic. To make things worse, these unoins have become even remotely effective only because they are a lot less regulated than private companies, often given gibs just to please leftist leaches, all at the cost of those who have things to do other than bitch and whine while being a worthless parasite, which makes him a hypocrite on many more levels than even leftists usually are.
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No.98307
Thankfully, anyone can read.
>>98272
The actual left position on unions is actually pretty negative.
To get right to the point - they're capitalist defense corporations, and as such, are subject to the same corruption pressures as all things within this, and even remotely similarly orchestrated, systems of organization. tl;dr, they will ALL quickly not only not serve their customers (amounting to fraud fairly quickly and without much care for quibbling reasonable doubt, IMO), nor the community, nor the outfit, nor anyone, really… but Bob from HR got an eight-ball out of it.
The fraud plus usually a fuckload of cost-externalizing which is not even realized as a gain in an embezzler's pocket is a large part of why we're not fond, and republicanism shares the same problem - if you can get elected to get your salary, the next step is to sell other peoples' shit below any sane or functional cost. It's straight-up "how do we pareto optimize the worst possible outcome" structure, and there are some traditional economic proofs that suggests that the buyer loses more than they gain; it's basically an "I'll pay you $100 in gold-backed certificates to throw the gold off the boat" scenario.
An actual union of the workers, as opposed to a Union(tm) "of" the workers, is far more desireable. They're fucking pirates, basically.
Getting the upper-tier npcs turned on usually involves the history of the AFL-CIO, any of the billions of times the union has pushed company agenda while the workers tell them both no, and the phrase "yellow unions," or just pointing out that it's a capitalist company with labor as alleged client, and turning them on to actual left unions.
Meanwhile, since it's an ancap defense company, usually with actual enforced monopoly power, the two major factors are whether the workers earn more with "unioncorp" embezzlement bloat, and whether some outside criminal actor has set up a "fucked either way" controlled scenario. Regarding the latter, both the left and the center have some quite skilled terrorists, with the left having more experience in the intelligence and international crisis management industry.
Your image is… fucking awesome, and going straight in my red-and-black porn folder.
>>98300
This is the "this is the internet, your enemies are fine beware your 'friends'" effect, I think. You'll… see a lot of it on this board.
Sometimes they pay you off with an image which is not only interesting, but telegraphs more functional insight than their "job" allows, though. Anti-work is awesome, greencom/transhumanist alliance effectively.
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No.98309
>>98307
>The actual left position on unions is actually pretty negative.
The left position will be whatever comfortable for the current leftist policy the shill for, the actual "left" position or consistency of their worldview doesn't matter, if just for the reason they don't know it themselves. Just as leftism itself - a tool that grows on ignorance and stupidity, fueled by jealousy and failure, designed not to reach something but to deprave others of everything to feel less miserable.
>since it's an ancap defense company, usually with actual enforced monopoly power
Oh, you're one of them. Fuck off to your containment board, illiterate degenerate. There's no place for you here.
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No.98310
>>98309
>Fuck off to your containment board, illiterate degenerate. There's no place for you here.
See the sticky? This is my containment board.
In this case - US-wise, at least - the NLRB exists literally to prevent a union and mandate false unions under this model. ANYTHING that claims sole jurisdiction over borders of land, however… well.
Regardless, it is still a private corporation claiming to sell defense for a price. ANY union - real, or in this case, private corporation - is pretty center-of-the-road ancap theory, however.
"Lemme form a PDO for my PDA, and what if the doggie consents though?"
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No.98311
>>98310
>See the sticky?
It doesn't mean shit. Kill yourself, scum.
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No.98317
>>98311
>See the sticky?
>it doesn't mean shit.
hippity hoppity get off the damn property.
<soviet helicopter sounds intensify
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No.98325
>>98300
It's the specific fact that he says "regulatory capture is a function of capitalism," which shows to be a communist. Communists are generally union shills. There are a few leaps in logic but it's a fair criticism.
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No.98337
>>98317
I think you're the one who can't read the sticky. It clearly states that although you won't be banned, you shouldn't be surprised when no one takes you seriously. He isn't taking you seriously, furthermore he wants you to stop breathing. I also want socialists to die, for the record.
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No.98371
>>98325
>a few leaps in logic.
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No.98403
>>98307
>Meanwhile, since it's an ancap defense company, usually with actual enforced monopoly power
Enforced by whom? Do you realize that ancap defense firms operate in a market?
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No.98458
>>98403
>Enforced by whom?
In this case, the NLRB exists to ensure that only fraudulently-staged "unions" are allowed to operate.
> Do you realize that ancap defense firms operate in a market?
Well, I realize the monopoly is granted by the major landholder. Whether this counts as a "market" is debated.
More to the point, though, I… do not actually believe that all products and services which exist under another system can never, ever be sold in an ancap one. A "union" in its NLRB-allowed format is a corporation, seperate from the workers, claiming to sell defense to those workers. Arguments that we're not in ancapistan now are, frankly, completely freaking irrelevant… and most likely dishonest.
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No.98482
>>97109
Because minimum wage is an abomination and productivity is continually increasing with automation. By your logic a Starbucks barista should earn $100/hr because some Honda executive managed to increase vehicle production by introducing more robots into the production line.
This isn't rocket science.
I would tell you to castrate yourself and improve the gene pool, but that is already implied.
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No.98483
>>97126
>anyone with enough drive, ambition, motivation, creativity, imagination and determination can make their own rags-to-riches story
Then why aren't you super-rich yet?
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No.98486
>>98483
Nigger do you think everyone has those attributes??
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No.98493
>>98458
The NLRB is a federal agency, so how can you consider the existence of such as ancap?
>Well, I realize the monopoly is granted by the major landholder.
So somehow there are no other land holders that can compete?
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No.98495
>>98483
Not him, but generally you have to put making money above all else if you want a rags to riches story. People who are rich have a very specific mindset for a reason, and founders of megacorps all had the same thing in common: They were willing to sacrifice their relationships, live in a vehicle or barn for months at a time, and basically put all other luxuries and in some cases basic necessities BEHIND their desire to get rich. If you want to get rich more than anything else in your life, you will find a way, but most people have hobbies or loved ones, etc. that take priority over the search for more money.
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No.98521
>>98493
>I do not actually believe that all products and services which exist under another system can never, ever be sold in an ancap one.
<The NLRB is a federal agency, so how can you consider the existence of such as ancap?
Like poetry.
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No.98523
>>98521
What are you getting at? NLRB is not a product or service in the market so it does not even apply to ancap. It is a monopoly of force on labor laws.
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No.98590
>>98523
NAP is being broken in the market too sometimes
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No.98618
>>98590
Just because one violates the NAP does not make one a monopoly.
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No.98658
>>98618
yes this is right i think
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