No.89841
Which is the most effective means to usher in a voluntary society in the long run?
The methods I've seen on /liberty/ so far are:
>Working within the state to enact reforms, educating the masses, and/or peaceful demonstrations
>Libertarian homesteading on sea/space/terra nullius
>Participating in the black/gray market to undermine state control of the economy
>Bunkering down with ample supplies and ammo and waiting for government to collapse
>Armed struggle followed by a temporary regime to purge collectivism and reorient society along voluntary lines
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No.89844
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>>89841
<Working within the state to enact reforms, educating the masses, and/or peaceful demonstrations
The first of these can be ignored, at least in a democratic state. The bureaucracy is so vast and inhuman, and traveling with so much inertia, that to try and change its course is a futile effort. It's only in a monarchical regime, in which one need only convince a single king to change his tack, that trying to change the state from within is worthwhile. The other are fine, although protests/demonstrations are a little too emotional in my opinion to be of true benefit
<Libertarian homesteading on sea/space/terra nullius
<Participating in the black/gray market to undermine state control of the economy
These are pretty similar, both involve working around the state and its various intrusions. Since escaping the state is the end goal of any libertarian effort these are good for those who can participate in them.
<Bunkering down with ample supplies and ammo and waiting for government to collapse
LARPing more than anything else.
<Armed struggle followed by a temporary regime to purge collectivism and reorient society along voluntary lines
I'd argue that's closer to a fascist solution than the libertarian one (although there is overlap). Libertarians are more about seceding from the current order than replacing it, which ties in to the first two points you made.
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No.89850
>>89844
It's the best kind of LARPing though, because at no point in my life have I ever said "oh no i have too much water, ammo, and nonperishable food what ever should I do?"
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No.89851
>>89850
If you want to do that more power to you. OP was asking specifically about bringing about means to bring in the natural order however, and stockpiling food isn't going to do that. Even if collapse does happen, it's unlikely to turn into pure chaos unless you live in the middle of Niggerville.
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No.89852
>>89851
Well m80, working within the state will only corrupt the individual, if you try to homestead they will either kill you or make you play their game, if you do the black market they will attempt and hopefully fail to imprison or kill you. As for armed revolt my answer and the answer of everyone else is going to be "that's a great idea, you go first fedcuck" and to be honest I view socialism as an inevitable force of nature sort of like a plague designed to lower populations that I only hope to survive with my family.
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No.89853
>>89852
Oh and the stockpiling of supplies can also be used for mundane everyday things like boil orders, power outages, and natural disasters
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No.89854
>>89850
The only problem with this is that it's a very expensive kind of LARP. It's better than buying gaming accessories or anime figures or some shit, but I've got no money for it currently.
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No.89872
Promote secession and decentralization.
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No.89878
>>89852
Trying to convert the state from within is fruitless, yes. So is armed conflict as long as the proles reliably get their bread and circuses. However, there are more choices than "actively fight the state" and "run for president". You may acknowledge that the state has coercive power over you, and simply choose to cooperate with it as little as possible without incurring violence. Educating the proles might not be important now, but as the state breaks down and they lose their McDonald's and their internet connection, they'll start looking for an alternative to the state to provide these things. The more educated they are about liberty the more likely they are to follow it when the time comes, as opposed to a two-bit dictator looking for regime change.
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No.89887
>>89841
>Working within the state to enact reforms, educating the masses, and/or peaceful demonstrations
I don't think anyone here has ever proposed those as meaningful ways of directing change. If the problem is the state then the solution is not the state either.
>>Libertarian homesteading on sea/space/terra nullius
Give the state enough time and they'll find some way to fuck those over, although those could always theoretically adapt to that.
>Participating in the black/gray market to undermine state control of the economy
An interesting idea but you end up potentially enriching entities that are just as bad as the state itself.
>Bunkering down with ample supplies and ammo and waiting for government to collapse
That's not exactly an effective means of ushering in a voluntary society but I mean it's always good to have supplies.
>Armed struggle followed by a temporary regime to purge collectivism and reorient society along voluntary lines
Armed struggles and violent revolutions very rarely produce voluntary states. Not saying it's necessarily impossible because it certainly is, such a thing is quite complicated however.
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No.89889
>>89850
theres opportunity cost from not investing in other things
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No.89892
>>89887
>Armed struggles and violent revolutions very rarely produce voluntary states. Not saying it's necessarily impossible because it certainly is, such a thing is quite complicated however.
Armed regime change, sure. But armed secession always struck me as something far more likely to create a freer state. Guaranteed, actually, because even if the resulting independent state is less free, everyone that didn't secede is more free as a result. Therefore secession should be encouraged and facilitated wherever it may appear, no matter the reasoning for it.
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No.89893
>>89841
>Working within the state to enact reforms, educating the masses, and/or peaceful demonstrations
This is unfortunately our best bet. We have to use hardcore populist tactics to convince plebs, and explain things to people in a way that even a 4-year old would understand. If people were logical and you could just convince them with stats and data, then we would already be living in Ancapistan, and you wouldn't have socialism and politicians exploiting people's emotions to do evil things to them. Until we have a modern ancap society to look at, we can only point at the ancap features of various successful countries, raise our children as libertarians, teach people that libertarianism is beneficial for the poor, make memes, subvert leftists using their own Jewy tactics, mock everything a government does and sow seeds of doubt in people's hearts, and generally move our countries in the direction of freedom without explicitly mentioning scary words that people don't understand like "anarcho" and "capitalism" put together.
>Libertarian homesteading on sea/space/terra nullius
I'm a strong proponent of this, but in order for it to be considered a success, you need a well-off population of at least 10,000, and a means of deterring aggressive states. You can bet your ass that by embarrassing the state and proving that it is a scam and something that's obsolete, you'll either directly or indirectly be at war with the whole world, because it's in every state's best interest to prove that the state is immensely useful, and that anarcho-capitalism is just Somalia-tier bullshit that never worked.
>Participating in the black/gray market to undermine state control of the economy
I never understood how this is effective in causing major change, you'll need to inconvenience yourself by looking for some black-market dealer who sells dubious products at (probably) higher than market prices. Even if you had the same financial resources as the state, it's just not worth it. Black markets are more of a symptom of a failed economy, and there's no need to participate in them unless they directly benefit you and the person you're trading with. I could be wrong though.
>Bunkering down with ample supplies and ammo and waiting for government to collapse
This is only good when you're already doing everything else. I wouldn't count on anything collapsing soon, and if it does, something worse might take its place, but I agree, we should always be ready for this, and when it happens we must organize and establish ancap communities that are capable of defending against states and statist aggressors. Also, if this happens, you wouldn't want to be the guy without gold and bitcoins saved somewhere, because most likely it will be the dollar that collapses first.
>Armed struggle followed by a temporary regime to purge collectivism and reorient society along voluntary lines
This is probably only worth it after the government collapses, or when some 911-tier event happens that gives people a strong reason to despise their government. Though whoever would do this would need to be very organized, and have a lot of public support.
I think a good goal to have is to do our best to help at least one notable country, be it Brazil, Poland, Scotland, Vietnam, Ukraine, or even fucking Zimbabwe, to get a successful version of Ancapistan going, so that they can say "we did it", and be a shining example to the whole world that anarcho-capitalism has been tried and it actually works. This way, a victory for that country is quite honestly a victory for everyone else too, because we will have a good example with which to refute people who know nothing besides "muh Somalia", and we will have good historical examples of not just socialism not working, but also stateless capitalism perfectly working.
Another excellent goal (which I think should be every libertarian's personal goal) is to try and get a shitload of money, and become the libertarian George Soros that uses all of his immense power and resources to influence one country into becoming the anarcho-capitalist society that everyone else looks up to. Currently people only look up to America as the beacon of light and freedom in the world, but that's not exactly true, and it's a very bad example for more oppressed nations that genuinely want freedom in their country. We need rich and powerful people on our side to create a society that is more free than the currently not free America, so that people can orient themselves towards that instead, and each one of us should try to became such a rich and powerful person.
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No.89969
>>89893
>whyikillancaps.jpg
Freedom is when the state mass-murders domestic civillians at whim, and the bigger the state, the more freedom there is…
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No.89972
>>89893
on the ancapistan on a terra nuillis, I think it would be able to deter states without a huge military if only we could achieve good relations with some of the anti-left state-leaders. That shouldn't be too difficult, as any genuinely right wing leader will see most states now as bad, and ancapistan as at least going the right way.
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No.89979
>>89969
Do you even understand what you just said or did you just feel like saying something?
>>89972
>anti-left state-leaders
Such as? I don't think there are people like that in the world, and even if there were, it's not like they are powerful right-wing dictators that can make the whole state bend to their will, in almost every government there is a system of checks and balances in place specifically to prevent rash decisions like that from happening.
But you actually did remind me of something important, the best thing we can do to prevent getting blown to hell by statist aggressors is quite literally holding them and their property hostage. Think about it, the state is built on corruption and theft, everything that is stolen by statists and socialists is taken to a place where they are kept safe from other statists and thieves, and these people keep their property and families there in a free capitalist paradise instead of the socialist shitholes that they created. This is partly why Switzerland hasn't been in many wars for the past hundreds of years, because statists would be attacking their own and other thieves stolen property which they all keep there. Ancapistan should become another such place so that we can hold the statists by the balls and literally findom the most powerful states into submission. Even Lenin himself said that if the world revolution was to take place, Switzerland is the only country that should remain capitalist.
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No.90023
>>89979
>Do you even understand what you just said
Yes, a summary of their (fucked up) stated position.
Do you know what the jpeg extension is, or did you just feel like typing something?
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No.90026
>>90023
Do I look like I fucking know what a jaypeg is?
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No.90038
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No.90699
>>89841
Building up enough wealth and healthy relationships that you rely on the state as little as possible, minimizing state power while also showing the way for others by your mode of living.
One could easily enough create a group that promotes its own members among itself (I'm thinking goods and services mainly here) while requiring ethical standards and mediation over government courts when disputes arise. If some of this happens to be "black" or "grey" market stuff within a decent ethical framework (or simply barter instead of taxed sales), so be it..
Not only does this strike me as imminently workable (assuming maturity on the part of group members), it may be the only workable way forward barring any massive shift in public opinions.. which seems unlikely at best at present.
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No.95772
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No.95818
Here in Russia tribal societies are extremely successful against a weak state. The state artificially destroys families to make atomized individuals powerless against the state workers. A policeman can call his precinct to cage you, while you can call your bruthas and friends, ooops, your couple distant cousins are spread over 8000km distance and they hate you anyway. Will happily backstab you for a chance to inherit a box in a slave block.
Meanwhile North Caucasians do have scores of bruthas, and their bruthas have friends, and their friends have friends if need be. So the state on the lowest level - the police - are frankly shit scared of them. At best they will arrest them, then release on parole where they happily go their way doing same shit because otherwise you have couple dozen angry dudes with illegal weapons to worry about, not a single Ivan with a kitchen knife against whole precinct.
So, networking. Building family corporations, so to speak. AKA tribes. Of course this requires a total change of relations to your brothers, cousins and in-laws, you have to re-invent familial codes of conduct, reinstate male honour and female decency aka pre-modern reputation systems, up to planned marriages and familial alliances.
There is a certain Tribe extremely successful in the era of modern states. It has precisely this tribal mentality "you hurt one you hurt us all, protect our own against any aliens whatever be", with exclusive religion to glue them in even further and precisely delineated borders between "us" and "them sheeple". So they can happily game the states for their own benefits. They even have their own courts with private judges to solve issues among themselves, and the worst crime one can do is use the state against fellow tribe-member.
Yes, the Jews. Learn from the best, yo.
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No.95820
>>95818
This.
In fact I get the feeling most Jew hating white nationalists are in fact just jealous of the BAB (big Ashkenazim Brain)
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No.95821
its not much but I try to do my part
I avoid paying taxes as much as I can legally, and leech out of the system as much as I can
they still nab me on sales tax but it turns out of you own nothing and do nothing its pretty hard for them to tax you otherwise
I could leech more by going to prison or something but I really dont want to do that tbh
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No.95920
>Which is the most effective means to usher in a voluntary society in the long run?
Kill all chinks, niggers and jews.
Seriously look at the stats, theyre over 99% socialist whereas whites are only ~20% socialist (the negro intermix).
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No.95946
Shoot everybody that protests in the face with a shotgun.
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No.95947
>>95820
Just because you have an oversized nigger head doesn't mean your brain is actually big schlomo.
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No.95978
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No.95997
>>95978
Revolution is anithetical to liberty because the only ones who seek to overthrow the established power are those who seek that power for themselves. Violent overthrow has its place, but only in the case of secession, not in a coup d'etat.
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No.96007
>>95997
Did you read the article? It does not propose a coup.
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No.96010
>>96007
The article is ambiguous in what it proposes. I don't disagree with most of the arguments presented in a vacuum (besides the accelerationist ones), but the author is vague in what exactly a "revolution" would entail and the means through which it is accomplished. He fails to address the fundamental issue with revolution–that those who seek to overthrow the seat of power will near always be the ones who sit on it next. In fact he tacitly reinforces this idea with his assertion that wielding political power is like taking a drug. I still see violent secession as strictly preferable to violent revolution, both on practical as well as principled terms.
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No.96011
>>96010
Also, the guy says Napoleon's enforcement of "equality" and the ending of feudalism are good things, despite those acts helping to usher in the era of republicanism and the birth of the modern state.
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No.96016
>>95978
>You want to kill a state
>The state has a violence power of X
>So you need to build a counter-state with violence power Y much larger than X
>The violence machine Y kills the enemy state and absorbs the human and material resources of the violence machine X, so now it is Z=Y+X strong
…
>The victorious and enlarged violence machine Z will now jolly downscale itself back to levels lower than X, and not use its enlarge capacity for violence to extort even more taxes
Which never happened in the history of mankind, ever.
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No.96041
>>96010
"A Different Revolution
With Underhill’s empirics refuted, let us consider the nature of a libertarian revolution. The word ‘revolution’ is defined as “a forcible overthrow of a government or social order in favor of a new system.” Historically, this new system has been another government, but this need not be the case. This definition leaves room for a stateless system which would be brought about by an anti-political revolution and maintained by a culture of resistance to any effort to reintroduce statism."
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No.96044
>>96041
Yeah, he's calling for an overthrow rather than a secession, and overthrow in the name of less power never works because the people doing the overthrowal seize power. I feel like I'm repeating myself here.
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No.96046
>>96044
I agree with you in that it doesn't make sense to remove someone from power only for someone else to take that power; the objective is to eliminate that power itself. Since the state won't allow the existence of people that challenge its authority to such extent as long as it still exists, even if a secession succeeds here or there, as long as states still exist they will not tolerate the existence of such societies, and if the entire world manages to secede from their states then that's pretty much a revolution. Maybe call it "liberation", if you will.
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No.98654
Space colonization. State spending is a necessary evil in this case, like how the Internet started out as a military project before turning into the decentralized commercial and information hub that we know today.
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No.98664
>>98654
> the Internet started out as a military project
why won't this meme die?
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No.98668
>>98654
Nigger please tell me you're kidding? NASA is too busy focusing on hiring furries and making sure their workplace is inclusive and diverse. Look at pic related they hired a furry intern. Most of NASAs 18 billion annual budget goes to the wages of the employees. The only time the government is good at innovating is during war where they're competing for the best technology. But, war isn't worth millions of lives. Capitalism is superior for innovation because there is always competition. The motivation of capitalism is profit. There is an unlimited amount of profit to be found in space. Part of the reason I advocate for anarcho capitalism is because I believe it is the fastest way to space. At this point the government can't be trusted for space travel.
If its a fascist state they'll eventually put all their budget to war, expansionism, and militarism.
If it's a state like the US the government will focus on hiring queer pansexual furries, making sure everyone is paid equally and "monitoring climate change."
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No.98672
>>98668
>be you
>send a spaceship containing sperm and ovum to the nearest Earth-like planet
>artificial wombs give birth to 1000 individuals upon arrival to the new world
>ship AI makes a fancy lightshow and takes the role of God
>instructs them on the philosophy of ancap and prints out holy books
>ancap becomes a religion, leftists become sinners
>sinners naturally fail while the faithful prosper
>this is seen as divine intervention, no one dares defy the ancap religion
>ancap utopia is achieved
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No.98683
>>98654
>State spending is a necessary evil in this case
Not really, over time the cost of space travel will just evaporate. We can already launch people in ballistic rockets from continent to continent in 30 minutes and only 15% more expensive than riding coach (far cheaper than riding business class). Once SSTOs take off it will be just as cheap to go to orbit as it is to go coach from New York to London, after that it doesn't even make sense not to develop space.
The fact that this will start to happen around the end of our (admittedly long) lifetimes around 2090 still makes me pretty sad, but it's not an excuse to let government bungle the process and give us some short term gains while slowing down space colonization by thousands of years.
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No.98685
>>98668
>The only time the government is good at innovating is during war where they're competing for the best technology
I won't even give them that. War is a decent incentive to take theoretical concepts and turning them into practical technologies, that much is true. But, since research into theoretical concepts all but dries up in wartime, once that surplus of theories is depleted, war just becomes a drain on resources, sapping productivity from the R&D sector as it does anywhere else.
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No.98692
>>98668
>weeb accepted in the NASA
the absolute state of usa/cumskins
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No.98710
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No.98721
>>98692
>>98710
>This is why Golang was created
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No.98749
>>98721
to give jobs to trannie autist communists?
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No.98797
>>98692
That's a furry, not a weeb.
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No.98834
>>98797
Name 2 differences. Other than weebs being mutts.
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